Microchip implants, GPS and Jesus

I'm curious to know what people think of microchip implants and things of that nature? I've had someone send me tons of stuff on this by email, and so have been forced to think about it. Here is where I stand (at this time, anyway) There is one part of me that no one can have, or control, and that is the part of me that belongs to God - my spirit. People in the world may try to control me, own me, implant chips in me, and even kill me, but they cannot keep me from God, no matter what they do. We are citizens of another kingdom, and that is our home. HEre we are foreigners. Even our national identity is not really who we are. Paul was a citizen of Rome, but he did not regard Rome as having any ownership of him. I think that those who regard the implant as the mark of the beast have missed the entire spirit of Scripture. They do not understand the nature of the forces of evil in the HEAVENLY REALMS, the spiritual battle we are in. I suspect that the "mark" is something discerned in the spirit. It is something that says that we belong NOT to God, but to this world. All who do not have the "mark" of the Spirit, the seal of ownership do not belong to God. There is no in- between place. You either belong to God, or the kingdom of the world. (Satan's domain) The chip has many good purposes, so in itself it is not evil. However, evil people can get a hold of it and use it for evil puroposes - that goes for just about anything - credit cards, etc Diane

Revelation 13 talks about people assuming the mark of the beast of which one will not be able to buy or sell unless he has this mark. This mark will be placed either on the right hand or the forehead. Now if you believe in the pretrib rapture, one will likely think they will be gone from this planet and so this technology would not bother them and would submit to it. However, if you think Christians will experience tribulation, this will be a very sobering thing and if you treasure your walk with God, have heaven as your goal, you will want to refrain from assuming anyhthing that will smack of the mark of the beast and thus jeopardizing your eternal destination. To complicate matters more, many well-meaning saints of old have mistakenly assumed certain persons as being the beast Revelation talks about. So the question is: how can we be 100% certain this person is the beast Revelation warns us about? Personally, I would rather err on the side of caution then embrace something that would later prove to be destructive. This is my two cents worth.....ginnyrose

brethrenspeaking of the middle east check this out on bro Rahman's thread on the precarious position of our economy. I also agree that judgment is about to fall on our nation in the form of economic trouble, and possibly even war that could end up being waged here on our very own turf.I don't know whether or not you guys have been following what's happening with Iran, but it appears to me that the stage is being set for the US to attack them for the same reason that we went into Iraq, namely to preserve the power of the American dollar as the supreme international currency.What many people don't know is that just before we took him out, Saddam Hussein was planning to begin trading oil for European Euro's instead of Americam dollars. Many economic experts predict that had he been allowed to do this, it would have destroyed the international community's confidence in the dollar, leading to a collapse of the American economy. Well, here's the new bad news: Beginning in March of this year, Iran is planning to do the same thing. Please read the following article:http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=article&id=1998Oil Bourse to Strengthen Prestige of Europe, IranWednesday, February 1, 2006To the detriment of America, if the Iranian oil bourse proceeds as planned in March 2006, one of the most underreported stories of the year will dramatically leap into view.Most Americans probably don’t worry about Iran too much. Talk of it developing a nuclear bomb probably strikes a raw nerve—especially coupled with the Iranian president’s anti-Jew comments. But with our hectic lives, we have little time to think about it. The trouble is, Iran has been thinking a lot about you. Its leaders are keen on America’s destruction—and that means you. That’s why one of the most underreported stories of 2006 deserves America’s attention.In March 2006, Iran is planning to launch an oil bourse. As it is understood, the bourse (a trading mechanism where someone sells and another buys) will sell oil in euros. Iran seeks to strike at the twin pillars of U.S. economic dominance: dollar reserves and confidence in the American economy.This plan, if carried out, would strengthen two fast-rising power blocs: Europe and Iran.For half a century, the American dollar has been the reserve currency of the world. Seventy percent of all currency reserves are held in American dollars.This has a lot to do with the fact that oil, the most important commodity in the world, is mostly priced in U.S. dollars. The majority of countries, being oil importers, are generally forced to buy their oil in U.S. dollars. Along with related economic considerations, this encourages them to keep most of their foreign currency in dollars.In turn, the debt-burdened U.S. economy is dependent upon the high demand for its currency in order to remain afloat. Sale of the U.S. dollar, in one way or another, funds major national debts. The day this demand comes to an end portends disaster for the American economy. This is where the seemingly innocuous subject of an Iranian oil bourse becomes anything but harmless for America.The proposed March 2006 launch of the Iranian oil bourse, if successful, would give the euro a foothold in the international oil trade, solidifying its status as an alternative oil transaction currency. This could be a catalyst for a major currency flight from the dollar to the euro—and a disaster for America.Here is why.Europe, among other major dollar-holding nations, will no longer have to buy dollars to purchase oil. For Europe, and any other country that might buy on the euro-denominated bourse, this means a shift away from the dollar reserve. The consequences for America would be immediate. Sale of Treasury bills to foreign nations would be curtailed as the purchase of euros accelerates. This would injure America’s capacity to finance its national debt. With this, Americans would feel more than a pinch. The Foundation for the Economics of Sustainability predicted, “As countries and businesses converted their dollar assets into euro assets, the U.S. property and stock market bubbles would, without doubt, burst.”Conversely then, as nations increasingly switch currency reserves from the dollar to the euro, dealing a considerable wallop to America’s global prestige, Europe’s stature will mature. Moreover, with Europe stabilizing under the beating heart of Germany’s economy, foreign nations could seemingly begin to look to Europe’s leadership rather than that of America. For Europe, which has sought an identity independent of America’s foreign-policy initiatives for the last half century, the bourse could act as a catalyst to propel the Union into a greater global standing. Again, America will receive the short end of the stick.Also, a dollar flight and subsequent purchase of euros would strengthen the European economy. The European economy is poised, should the bourse proceed, to receive a major jolt of economic confidence. By contrast, America’s economy, which stands or falls on consumer confidence, could receive a death blow.For Europe, a flush of cash would offer new opportunities to finance pan-European projects like defense and armaments. According to an Oct. 13, 2005, report by Associated Press, Britain and France have called upon their European allies to beef up defense spending. Up to now, European states have been cutting spending on defense budgets and falling well short of the American benchmark, which is over $450 billion annually. The problem is, nobody has the money. According to British Defense Secretary John Reid, his challenge is trying “to convince our colleagues to try and find a reasonable amount of money.” Right now, the European Union spends only about $218 billion on defense each year, creating glaring gaps in European defense—something a heavy amount of purchasing of euros instead of dollars could fix.According to nato figures, America spends 3.9 percent of its annual budget on defense. Remember, foreigners help finance that budget by buying dollars, so a switch to euro reserves would also have the added effect of striking at America’s ability to finance its military.As an influx of cash could begin to solve some of the most divisive problems between European states aspiring for a united Europe, European unity could receive a shot in the arm. Right now, Germany is emerging as the uncontested leader of European policy initiatives east of the Danube by effectively dealing with the Russian bear. But also, it is emerging as the internal voice for change within the Union itself. A cash-rich Union—which over the last few years has been persistently hampered by budget constraints and internal squabbling over transfer payments to different states—would be positioned to focus on issues of unity and policy. The bourse, then, could help to eliminate divisive cash problems and open opportunities for a newly resurgent Germany to ply its version of the European Union.For itself, Iran no doubt has multiple motives for making this move. For one, it makes sense economically, especially since the European Union is Iran’s biggest trading partner. More importantly, it would strike a blow to Iran’s archenemy America. Finally, making Iran the main hub for oil deals in the region would help drive the Islamic Republic forward in its quest for regional supremacy.As Gerard Baker puts it in a January 27 Times Online article, Iran is already on the threshold of creating a new moment in the history of the world, ranking its world-changing influence up there with Hitler and the Bolshevik Revolution. Couple its push for a new oil-exchange mechanism with Baker’s observations and you have a position where “No country in a region that is so riven by religious and ethnic hatreds will feel safe from the new regional superpower.”George Perkovich, an Iran expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, stated it frankly: “It’s part of a very intelligent, creative Iranian strategy—to go on the offense in every way possible and mobilize other actors against the U.S.” (Christian Science Monitor, Aug. 30, 2005).Obviously, Iran is eager to eliminate American influence. For Iran, which foresees a “clash of civilizations” between Islam and America, undermining the dollar could prove to be its best and most effective strike against a more capable military foe. As one commentator put it, the impact of the Iranian oil bourse on the U.S. dollar and the follow-on effect on the U.S. economy could be worse than Iran launching a “direct nuclear attack.”Should the bourse proceed, watch for a U.S. dollar flight into euros—and for the corresponding fall of America’s twin economic pillars, the dollar reserve and confidence in the American economy. With the Iranian oil bourse, Americans could end up holding the bag, and Europe and Iran the prize. while i believe the church will be raptured, i don't think she'll escape without some licks so i pray we gird ourselves for the very worst lest we be caught off guard by times of trouble and persecution.

Ironman, this sounds grim, indeed - for the entire world, if you're prediction is right. And it sounds like a possiblity for the not-too-distant future. However, has history not often taken unexpected turns? Disease, natural calamities or other factors could change a lot of things The important thing is to learn to discern God's voice, and trust in him because he knows how to best prepare us for what's ahead. Now about the microchip. If it is the "mark", then it would have to be applied world wide. However, it is a product of the industrial, technologically advanced world. That leaves a lot of people out. I think "Prophets" of end times typically view their predictions through their OWN cultural biases. There is another problem with the microchip theory: And that is that not all who refuse it are truly saved. The Amish have been refusing society's "marks" for a long time, but that is not an indication that they belong to Christ. I know some very radical people who feel very strongly that they must avoid anything that would indicate that they are "owned" by the state, because it will lead to THE MARK: ex drivers liscence, passports, credit cards. etc. However, to me it's obvious that they have no intention of seeking God, following him, and centering their lives on Christ. They are following the "letter" but missing the spirit of the word. Historically many have speculated who the beast was, what 666 was, but, they proved wrong over and over again. Obviously they did not get their "information" from the Spirit. They are playing chess with God's word. So I say, if the Spirit doesn't reveal the meaning of prophetic terms, I'm not going to speculate. Diane

sis Dianethis portion of the post was actually by Billy7 and when i pasted the text i didn't mention that. forgive me. he also found the article which was attached to the post.I also agree that judgment is about to fall on our nation in the form of economic trouble, and possibly even war that could end up being waged here on our very own turf.I don't know whether or not you guys have been following what's happening with Iran, but it appears to me that the stage is being set for the US to attack them for the same reason that we went into Iraq, namely to preserve the power of the American dollar as the supreme international currency.What many people don't know is that just before we took him out, Saddam Hussein was planning to begin trading oil for European Euro's instead of Americam dollars. Many economic experts predict that had he been allowed to do this, it would have destroyed the international community's confidence in the dollar, leading to a collapse of the American economy. Well, here's the new bad news: Beginning in March of this year, Iran is planning to do the same thing. Please read the following article:now this does confirm however what the Lord has been showing me of late concering what is to come very soon. like you said though, the main thing is to seek the Lord for guidance. He's openning my eyes to what's really going on economically and cnn, fox and most other networks are feeding us this "everything is ok" stuff such that people really belive the economy is strong. when this thing crashes, a lot of people will be left in shock and some will curse God and others will seek Him. Sis Diane as much as i'd like to say it, i can't, we're not dodging this bullet so hold on to God, like never before. about the microchip being relegated only to the advanced nations, the world out there is pretty advanced, more so than we like to think sometimes at least so i see nothing hindering that from happenning except the hand of the Lord. when He does remove His hand though, the enemy will do whatever needs to be done to get this mark to all corners of the earth. for whoever will take it. i know it doesn't seem likely that it could happen but in the days of noah, noone had ever seen rain before till it fell and washed them away...you also said that not all people who refuse it are saved necessarily which i think is true, but if one doesn't take hold of Christ, then he belongs to the enemy.people have speculated on who the antichrist is. funny enough though they seem to neglect that one of the things he does is bring about world peace, when that happens, you can bet your milk and cookies that he's the one. i mean people have said hitler, stalin, the pope but none of these men (though they may have had a spirit of antichrist) brought about the peace in the world and between israel and the arabs or even presided over a one-world government. i think people neglect certain things to make the bill fit and so they mess up. anyway sis, the bottom line is we should all (or at least whoever will) REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!.AMEN

I don't know whether or not you guys have been following what's happening with Iran, ...the US to attack them for the same reason that we went into Iraq, ...to preserve the power of the American dollar as the supreme international currency....What many people don't know...Saddam Hussein was planning to begin trading oil for European Euro's instead of Americam dollars. Many economic experts predict ... it would have destroyed the international community's confidence in the dollar, leading to a collapse of the American economy. I'm probably asking for a good cuffing here, but I really think there is too much speculation among our prophets. The very voices that are telling us to be separate from the world seem to feel authorized to mix scripture with daily headlines that range from unsubstantiated short-wave broadcasts to amateur blog-sites. In addition to being spiritual leaders many prophets today also appear as qualified experts on economics, technology and military movements.I remember being a young Christian trying to learn about the faith under the prophetic shadow of the coming war with the Soviet Union. I believe our infatuation with end times senarios of Russia and Israel in the 70's and 80's was so widespread that the American Evangelical Church actually became a political force for cold war agendas coming out of Washington., Of course the USSR is no more, but speculative prophecy is alive and well...and I believe it's weakening the better mission of a prophet which is to direct eyes upward, the visibility of Jesus and the Father...not secret insight into geo-politics of other nations or into our storage freezers. During the Revolutionary War it is recorded that members of the church thought King George was the anti-Christ. And we all know that people thought Hitler was the end. But hindsight is 20/20 and our current prophets know better.Or do they?IN April of 2000 David Wilerson asserted the following:"For the last two years I have been crying aloud, warning all who would hear that America is receiving her last call and that judgment is at the door. I did not say this was the end of the nation, but the last call before a financial crash."I am writing this letter to you on Saturday, April 15, 2000. I have on my desk the headlines in yesterday's paper: "BLACK FRIDAY - BIGGEST ONE-DAY DROP IN HISTORY." The Dow fell 618 points - the Nasdaq fell 355. I do not know what is coming in the next sixty days. If the market bounces back, I can assure you it will be temporary. THE CRASH IS INEVITABLE - NOTHING CAN STOP IT."Later that year he was forced to admit the following..."In prayer, I have told the Lord I am ready at any time to confess I am wrong - that I must have spoken from my own fears or that I have spoken unadvisedly. Recently, when the market reached record highs, I wondered if those calling me a false prophet were right."Now if a tried and true tested man of God like Wilkerson can let the fears that try all of us taint his prophecy, then I think the rest of us should take heed. In a time when people are eager to look past illusions and find reality, fear seems like the most sane reponse to our world. But it does not take a prophet to speculate fear. We know they may very well be a nuclear war or financial crash in future human history. I was learning about these things from unregenerate professors in college. See the movie Koyannistatsi or read the book "Entropy:the greenhouse Effect."...are these men also prophets?Forgive my bluntness but I think the prophet does not speculate about such things. The examples of Jeremiah, Amos and others not withstanding, the prophet may indeed warn the people about the holiness of God and agains t the injustice of a society, but they do not add to these missions speculations about things they really can't be sure of. Instead stick to the spiritual realities behind the movements of earthly kingdoms...don't try to speculate about Iran and such. In all likehood you will be wrong, or mostly wrong and your testimony as a prophet for Christ will be tainted.Now one day, some one will predict a war or a famine and be right. But then again, even a blind squirrel finds an acord now and then. ;-)Okay, I'm a fair guy...sock it to me. I love you guys, and I'm not mad or anything. I'm just expressing a concern as I see it. MC

Interesting topics. I think this is an important issue that needs to be brought up and discussed both more and less.More in some cases, because some people have no knowledge or understanding of the subject matter or the importance of it, and as such are underprepared.Less in some cases, because there are many "Chicken Little" churches/groups/internet sites/prohets, who all they do is predict doom, without bringing people that much closer to God.While I read through some of the information on the website shown by MeAgain, and some of it was well thought-out and sound, but some is shaky, and there is a lot of warning without a real sense of God's presence or grace, which I felt compelled to make a post about. If you want, you can find it here...http://www.theverichip.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=84Maybe I was too harsh on them, but that was simply what I felt led to say. There is a form of godliness there, but not a wholeness, which distresses me. I was somewhat blunt, but it is my prayer that my words bring more health to the community, even if it brings a little hurt.Maybe I overstepped my bounds. Only God knows that. But personally, I wouldn't have too much to do with that forum as is, just because of the state it is in.No offense to anyone from that forum that reads this or it meant, of course.

I felt compelled to make a post about. If you want, you can find it here...Maybe I was too harsh on them, but that was simply what I felt led to say. There is a form of godliness there, but not a wholeness, which distresses me.Matt, I read your word to that forum, and I sensed that it was a genuine word that flows from the heart of God - what I believe is a true prophetic word and speaks to us as well. I don't sense any harshness. Satan has been a master at sidetracking God's people - and he uses our interest in scripture to his advantage. When we get our eyes off of Christ, we quickly get on the wrong path, even if it is following after a scripture portion. I wonder why there is such a fixation on things in the future when we don't even have things in the present right with God. Perhaps it is because we DON'T WANT to look at what's going on in our hearts right now. Like that bottle of whiskey - a shot of "end-times" speculation gives us a sense of escape and adventure. Or maybe there is a desire to feel like we are in control. After all, we want to be prepared, don't we. Probably though, you are right: Fear is a powerful motivating factor.If the giants, like David W. can falter - who are any of us to think that we are beyond deception. I guess our failures can keep us close to God, and keep us from going too far on tangents. I think Ironman is right: we must get ready for tough times. I also feel that our preparation involves getting our hearts and lives purified and Christ-centered. If that is not happening, we will easily be fooled by Satan. Scripture clearly tells us to keep our focus on Christ. That is the safest, and best way to gain the understanding that we need - revealed by his Spirit.Diane

but they do not add to these missions speculations about things they really can't be sure ofThere it is in a nutshell. Maybe there are many things we can be convinced of, but surety... That is the danger that makes these types of 'prophecies', when they are couched that way just that, dangerous. Add a "Thus sayeth the Lord" ...Think you are dead on MC.Just as well concur with;I wonder why there is such a fixation on things in the future when we don't even have things in the present right with God. Perhaps it is because we DON'T WANT to look at what's going on in our hearts right now.Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Out of all the parables towards this end the tense from our Lord was to watch and be ready. To be found faithful. If this isn't our condition now, the "if's" and "when's" will be met with a far more devastating effect.Another related posting on this here:FDA approves computer chip implants for humans

Sorry guys, but when you give eschatology less focus than the N.T. does, then that is just as self-righteous, pious or half-sighted as you've accused others of being.MeAgain! :-) Just to be clear about the particular point I was trying to convey...my concern isn't over eschatology Let's look for the season of His coming!And I am not opposed to a lively conversation about microchips and how they might relate to the mark of the beast over a cup of coffee.My point was simply to ask those who desire to speak as a prophet to exercise more discipline...they are not as free to speculate as the others. They may have private fears and speculations...but publicly perhaps they censor themselves.I know it may seem a contradiction...but perhaps a prophet isn't defined only by what he says..but also by the things be does not bother to talk about. Afterall, if a prophet can not talk about the heart of the matter then who will? Are microchips and the value of the American dollar the heart of the matter?The reason I offered my critique, with some apprehension I assure you, is that people like me take the words of prophetic minded people to heart. (I can think of no greater respect given.) I say this lamentably because, in my experience, I have read too many "prophetic" predictions of worry that never came to pass. Only then do I recognize the source of those words...from a fearful heart like my own. Yet I do not call my self a prophet. However I am a father in my household. I do not daily talk to the children about the things that daddy fears about. "Children we may be homeless tomorrow if I don't recieve a phone call from that client today." or "Wife, I read that the price of oil is rising. I think we shall starve this winter."Yes, it looks like we are in for some harsh times in the future. In those times, we will need confident leadership...not fretful speculators. So, to be sure...I am not being mocking or disrespectful. I am asking people who speak for the Lord to say only what they are absolutely sure of from the Lord and His word. It is my concern that they might be exceeding this simple boundary. As we know, forum posts convey neither body language nor tone...so only the worst 10% of my intention may be coming through here. So please see me not as a mocker pointing his finger. (I've never used the term "false" or implied that we should "expose" anyone or the like. We are family here and I am just a brother, not a parent.) MY body language is as a brother coming to the family speaking in sanguine tone with deep respect for the man or woman who desires to prophecy. "Please learn to tell the difference between what is growing in your heart through fear or anger and what is placed there through the Lord. Build up our faith. The Body needs faith in this hour. Repent we must...but everything by faith in the soverign Lord."Blessings all,MC

bro mikeI'm probably asking for a good cuffing here, but I really think there is too much speculation among our prophets. The very voices that are telling us to be separate from the world seem to feel authorized to mix scripture with daily headlines that range from unsubstantiated short-wave broadcasts to amateur blog-sites. In addition to being spiritual leaders many prophets today also appear as qualified experts on economics, technology and military movements.i agree with you in that there is indeed much speculation going on among today's prophets which leads to the spouting out of things which are not of God. that being said the Lord is indeed speaking to some concerning what is going on now as it pertains to what the future holds and we have to take the time out to sift the wheat from the tares and i think we aren't as dilligent about that as we like to think. ..and I believe it's weakening the better mission of a prophet which is to direct eyes upward, the visibility of Jesus and the Father...not secret insight into geo-politics of other nations or into our storage freezers.the role of the prophet is largely misunderstood and limited to the predicting of the future. while there is some truth in this, the prophet is the revelation to men of the heart of God, the very feelings of God toward us and sometimes that does involve the prediction or should i say the telling of what the future will be (prediction seems to imply guessing to me) if the Lord decides to teach geopolitics to one of His prophets or to reveal to him on the geoplitical level what God is doing what is it to us? During the Revolutionary War it is recorded that members of the church thought King George was the anti-Christ. And we all know that people thought Hitler was the end. But hindsight is 20/20 and our current prophets know better.you know i've heard people say that everyone and their mama is the the antichrist. i think people get irresponsible in leaving out certain things about him, such as him presiding over a one world government, brokering a peace deal with israel for 7 yrs, don't remember hitler, stalin or kissinger doing any of this. We know they may very well be a nuclear war or financial crash in future human history. I was learning about these things from unregenerate professors in college. See the movie Koyannistatsi or read the book "Entropy:the greenhouse Effect."...are these men also prophets?well bro mike, it's not a matter is "may well be" but a matter of when. and your statement about learning such things from unregenerate professors in college and asking if they were prophets seems more an excuse to not take heed and see that perhaps there is something going on here. if the so called "experts" whose opinions we so value (sometimes more than God's if we may be honest here) say that there is coming a terrible economic collapse and war shortly thereafter, and the prophets of the Lord are saying similar things should we not therefore take heed and seek the Lord on it rather than just brush it off?Forgive my bluntness but I think the prophet does not speculate about such things. The examples of Jeremiah, Amos and others not withstanding, the prophet may indeed warn the people about the holiness of God and agains t the injustice of a society, but they do not add to these missions speculations about things they really can't be sure of. Instead stick to the spiritual realities behind the movements of earthly kingdoms...don't try to speculate about Iran and such. In all likehood you will be wrong, or mostly wrong and your testimony as a prophet for Christ will be tainted.i agree the prophet doesn't speculate about such things but if the Lord reveals it to him they we best take heed. we have the example of Jeremiah and Amos as you said who were well aware of the geoplitics of the day and so to me it seems the Lord will raise up prophets who have the same mantle with a knowledge also of today's geopolitics. amid all the hubbub we have to sift through it all and see what is of the Lord and what isn't and hold fast to what is God's and discard what's not and that's a lot harder than tossing it all out window...bro mike the Lord's been showing me of what is to come. i didn't ask for it or want it at all. in fact when i got saved i was content to be a regular Christian but God has other plans. i didn't go to Him and say "Lord please use me for this thing or that thing" in fact i didn't want any of the drama that comes with all this at all so when the Lord started showing me these things i was like "you have the wrong guy Lord" i'm not interested in geopolitics or policy or any of this other mess but the Lord is steady showing me how it fits into what He's doing to restore His Church. the Lord has shown me things by vision and other means in the Spirit of Iran, this nation, Israel and so on and i thought i was losing my mind. since then the Lord has been breaking it down in terms i can grasp and relating it all to what's going on in the world today and as i said earlier, the article billy7 posted which i pasted here only served to confirm the truth of what the Lord already showed me instead of showing i was being led astray. i guess i'm not as crazy as i thought as much as i would like to think i am. i've asked the Lord on many occasions "why do i need to know this and why have you called me to this work coz i don't want it" the response always speaks of the Lord's sovereignty in whom He'll call to what work. as with all things, let us take them before the Lord and have Him try them for us, let us be very diligent in this brethren because i fear we dismiss and permit too much based more on what we feel than what the Lord says.

sis dianeI wonder why there is such a fixation on things in the future when we don't even have things in the present right with God. Perhaps it is because we DON'T WANT to look at what's going on in our hearts right now. Like that bottle of whiskey - a shot of "end-times" speculation gives us a sense of escape and adventure.now you know how i feel about this issue! we spend a lot of time straining at gnats and instead we swallow camels, or perhaps we strain at gnats so WE CAN swallow our camels...in all things we need to seek the Lord and especially concering our own hearts. if we spent as much time with the Lord and let Him denounce the sins we're guilty of as we do denouncing the sins of others, we'd not be in a situation where we're seen to be hypocrites. We have to have a balance and that balance is dictated by God Himself which means we have to follow the leadings of the Spirit of God. like you said part of the preparation for what is coming is a concercration of our very beings to Christ, a purification of our filthy hearts, a confrontation with the sins and demons we harbour within that impede our witness and indeed our walk with God.Lord be our courage and wisdom in this time that we may be concecrated to you in these days. AMEN.

bro mikeSo, to be sure...I am not being mocking or disrespectful. I am asking people who speak for the Lord to say only what they are absolutely sure of from the Lord and His word. It is my concern that they might be exceeding this simple boundary.i feel you there and agree totally. those called to the prophetic work and saying "Thus sayeth the Lord" need to say just what the Lord told them to say no matter how outlandish or far-fetched it may seem.

Spaghetti dinner notwithstanding...But I did not post that as a way for those here, who don't like eschatology, to find a way to mock their way out of it.but for the adults on here, to use this as one more reason to throw out Eschatology, as has been the inclination, that too is just as foolish, if not more so, then what those kids are doing over there.Sorry guys, but when you give eschatology less focus than the N.T. does, then that is just as self-righteous, pious or half-sighted as you've accused others of being.This is all jumping to conclusions and not at all necessary, nor helpful. No one has stated anything to that end. This has become quite a bit of a problem around here, this assuming. Can we stick to what is written?

now it's not the speghetti water that's boiling but something else that seems to be boiling over here.Is this statement funny, or what! Actually, I think that there is a hidden prophetic message here (or exhortation?). Yes, MeAgain, next time you should sign on as IronWoman. You have quite a way with words - and I could never be a match for you. I suspect your response was to my post. I was expressing my distress over those who hide behind excotological scriptures in order to avoid Spirit conviction.The book of Revelation starts out saying,"The revelation of JESUS CHRIST. .... the testimony of Jesus." If we miss that focus and purpose of Revelation, then we end up "straining for gnats while letting the camel slip through". Then our escotological studies are merely playing chess with God's word. We'll put the players where WE think they should go. But we'll leave out the King. Diane

I was expressing my distress over those who hide behind excotological scriptures in order to avoid Spirit conviction.-Well said, Diane. I received a call from a woman once who said (through tears) that her husband was so caught up (oh, gosh, no pun intended) in discussing eschatology that he wouldn't discuss anything else. Talking to this guy was frustrating because he steered every conversation in this direction. As a counselor, in the worst case scenario - to "avoid Spirit conviction," as you mentioned before - I would refer to this as "spiritual intellectualizing" (or "blowing smoke").-Dr. B. R. Lakin once said that he was going to preach as though Jesus' coming would be another 200 years away, and live his life as though Jesus was coming "5 minutes from now." Thanks for reminding me once again of those words..-Blessings!...

those called to the prophetic work and saying "Thus sayeth the Lord" need to say just what the Lord told them to say no matter how outlandish or far-fetched it may seem.-A good reminder for any preacher, especially this one. Thank God for the "fire in the foundry" and the old Hound of Heaven..-Love you, brother. Keep on rollin'...

I think I'll change my sign-on to IRONWOMAN, seeing how I'm the one getting chided here.yes we could do with one of those here :-P

bro four4Himi was talking to another dear brother of mine in Christ yesterday and we discovered that if the Lord is dealing with His prophet one-on-one and the prophet reads too much into what the Lord is saying, that's one thing. however should the prophet then share these things with others, it gets more complicated because another soul is involved and it is a thing of great gravity to mislead any of the Lord's children. i'll keep on barking and biting as long as the Lord leads me to.

I've tried talking Eschatology on here since last July or so... So I think I've felt the reaction enough times and see how there aren't many threads on eschatology .... that is what I meant and I find no "jumping to conclusions" in that.Nonsense. Re-read your own words. Self-righteous?You think you can get away with taking a swipe here and not have any reaction towards it? You brought this on yourself with your own words, no one is chidding you. No one is avoiding anything by bringing forth their concerns, nor is whatever notions you have concocted in your mind of a perception from the past warrented. It's ridiculous. It's unhelpful and it's absurd to make this kind of generaization. To make yourself the victim by making snide comments and then complain when you are called on it ...

Annie,There is a great problem in misunderstanding intent and I believe it is 'bearing false witness'. It is almost alarming how often it can come up and still not be recognized.It is redundant, but it is this idea of climbing into other peoples minds and expressing their thoughts by presumption and it is wrong and wrong headed. In fact it is so sinister and maybe subtle enough at points in between, to expose it is too get caught in it's trap.I think I have done so here as you pointed out and I do apologize for it where I went too far but it was an attempt to judge by your words. That is not a defense. It is grievous to hear these things bandied about one against another due to differences of opinion. That is what the attempt was to draw attention to, again your own words;But I did not post that as a way for those here, who don't like eschatology, to find a way to mock their way out of it.Sorry guys, but when you give eschatology less focus than the N.T. does, then that is just as self-righteous, pious or half-sighted as you've accused others of being.Those are accusations and they are not warranted, nor necessary. They bare false witness of intent and motive that has not been expressed here in this particular posting. Why state them?More broadly, there has been plenty of discussion elsewhere of Eschatology on this site and if there is a difference of opinion or that some will bring a word of caution in these things should not warrant such unnecessary comments, those excerpted above here.We need to examine ourselves, our words and our own intents and motivations. Again, my apologies for doing the same here.To the matter at hand and maybe by way of unraveling some misunderstandings here. Did you happen to read the other link presented that parallels this discussion? You may be surprised not only what I may think personally (which is really of no particular consequence, my own understanding of this falls closer to the line of "I don't know", God knows and I trust Him ... it's in flux) but would take note of Roberts response there as it applies to this.

Thank you Brother IRONMAN, for not getting mad at me for stealing your name.well you're leasing it at the moment, i'll be sending you a copy of the contract and bill shortly :-P :-P :-P love yah sis annie

bro KrispyBut ya know what? When I am hiking I would much rather come across a bear with a full belly than one thay just woke up from hibernation.man i'm not foolin with no bears but i feel that statement. Is the US innocent? No, of course not. (altho it's still the best place to be! I'm biased, I know.) But we're still allied strongly with Israel, and I really believe that as long as we stay that way we will have a certain amount of protection from God... because He promised that.well i'm not sure how much protection our alliance with Israel grants us, we sure have benefitted from it though in various increases. though our turning away from God in many respects does concern me and i doubt that helping Israel will save us from a whole lot. that's why i feel i hear the Lord telling me to tell whoever will listen to prepare for the terrible times ahead. i do think however that while America may not exist as the nation we know today, the body of believers will indeed be provided for by the Lord.No one can predict when things will happen. I dont need a prophet to tell me that we live in perilous times. If that was the case, Wolf Blitzer would be a prophet.the Lord knows indeed when all this will happen and as He sees fit He will send out messengers to forewarn people.it's or responsibility then to take such things before the Lord and have Him try them for us and hold onto what's His and discard what's not. like i said though the prophet is well known for telling what will happen in the future (won't use predict coz that makes it sound like guessing) what a prophet is really is one who is in touch with the very feelings and the heart of God and speaks that to the people as He is led to, sometimes that means telling everyone, or should i say whoever will listen about what will happen in the future, near or distant. Fact is, none of us have any control over whats happening. If we did we wouldnt be exercising faith in God. God is in control, and thats all I need to know. Hard times will come. America could fall BEFORE the rapture (altho I happen to believe the rapture will be a contributing factor to America's fall, should it fall).indeed the Lord is in control so it makes sense for us to seek Him concerning what is happenning now (as He leads that is) there have been rumblings of an economic collapse as early as the 4th quarter of this yr though most such news is relegated to the fringes of journalistic organizations and is not often heard on fox or cnn though a couple of weeks ago neil cavuto did ask a panel of economic experts about it and they seemed to gloss over it. since then noone on the big networks has made any mention of this. i'm not economist nor financial expert but the idea of having an economy based on the servicing of debt somehow doesn't seem very safe... :-( as for the rapture bro Krispy i think that perhaps those that will be swept up may experience some hardships and persecution before that so we should be prepared for the worst and pray for the best so to speak. Lord I repent for ever feeling persecuted for Your Name! How wretched am I that I consider myself at times to be persecuted for You when I havent even come close.AMEN bro, i echo that prayer and agree with you in Spirit.The main thing, my friends is that we need to be focussed on Christ, and Him alone. If we're trusting in our government or in the economy, we're not trusting God.... and thats idolatry.... and thats a sinbro you're on a roll!Time is short. Be it rapture, or by death. Time is short.indeed bro, many of us expect to be raptured without any licks, personally i doubt that, but few of us think martyrdom may be the Lord's plan for us. perhaps there are more martyrs than we think, perhaps you whoever you are reading this may be counted in that number?Lord your will be done.AMEN.

There is a great problem in misunderstanding intent and I believe it is 'bearing false witness'. It is almost alarming how often it can come up and still not be recognized.Mike, second guessing people's motives and thoughts is normal (ie the norm in human behavior) Of course there is a lot of mis-judging because none of us are transparent, and words are our so very limiting, and we are sinners. People seem pretty good here at defending themselves, and clarifying their thoughts. And when someone misjudges others, there is always someone to say, "Wait a minute" ... I'd rather people take a "crack" at trying to understand me, even if they are wrong, than just be polite (a deadly form of "godliness") The biggest problem I see is hypocrisy, (I don't exclude myself)and since that is so very unconscious, it can't be fixed by suppression. Suprressing it only produces a shiny "outer cup". It is better to wrestle through it and move on - even if it looks ugly at times. How can we realize it except to see it for what it is - ugly? The back and forth bantering is allowing us to fine tune our generalizations, understand each other and ourselves better, and clarify our own thinking. It also helps us learn that just because someone misunderstands us, that doesn't mean our identity is threatened. It also allows us to discover our hypocrisy (if we are willing - but that can't be forced)As far as it being a violation of the ninth commandmend, I think that may be a rather large leap in "second guessing" the "second guessing'. True, some may be intent on damaging others, through attributing evil, false motives to their words, but I don't think that is happening consciously. It is usually a case of the log and speck. If I see ill will, I address it. And if I am guilty there is always someone to expose it. MeAgain has done that a few times, and I appreciate that. She is like an open book - she says what right there on her mind. Learn to listen to the heart, and find the treasure. Why not let the checks and balances work for themeselves. May we be allowed the space? Diane

From page 3;Another related posting on this here:FDA approves computer chip implants for humans

how can we be 100% certain this person is the beast Revelation warns us about? I believe that we are not left on our own to guess. The Holy Spirit has promised to protect us, guide us and be a light on our way. I find it interesting that the Spirit did not reveal a lot of prophesies to Daniel till he was very old. Also, the interpretation of those prophesies were given by God. Daniel did not have to guess, or use his own powers of reasonings. Personally, I would rather err on the side of caution then embrace something that would later prove to be destructiveTo err is to err. Even while being very cautious, we can still miss it. The Jews did. They missed Christ all together! That is very significant. As has been mentioned earlier, fear can be a force behind many of our percautionary measures. I feel that fear is a sign of unbelief - like the Israelites in the desert. When their scouts discoverd the giants in Cannan, they exagerated their strength. Israel froze in unbelief. I suspect that those giants were God's way of testing the faith of Isreal. So too with our modern-day scouts - those peering into the future and reporting to us about such things as the microchip. They turn it into a formidable monster. Maybe God is testing our faith. Will we let those reports determine our choices, or will we trust in God? We must be assured that God will tell us WHEN we need to know, and what we need to know. And if we are resting in the shepherds arms, walking in quiet faith day by day, we need not fear what this world can do to us.Having said that, I also feel that the chip is a welcome wonder for those who are dependent on this world (the state) for its protection. But, really we who follow Christ are not to put our trust in this world - chip or no chip. I think that we have already been trusting in far too much in this world. Much repentance is needed.At this point I don't feel excercised to give up my birth certificate, credit cards, driver's liscence, though they all can help Big Brother keep an eye on me, and think that he owns me. Perhaps God has allowed me to keep them because doing so serves his higher purposes for me being here. Diane

Hey guys,I have been away for a couple of days. What did I miss? :-D Seriously, I think I found some good food for thought in all the posts below. For what's its worth I thought I would mention the context of my own biases...I've never been able to reconcile much of the trembling prophecy about economic uncertainty with Jesus' words "And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you."For me the question of whether the predicted facts are accurate seemed to miss the deeper question of whether the spirits of these types of prophecies are helpful.This is not to make a blanket statement about what (or who) is wrong or right...I offer those verses as perhaps some insight to why I can not join in the wondering when the economy will collapse. I've been given grace enough for today...Jesus promises me all the grace I will ever need---within a 24 hour window. Anything beyond that is man’s idea of security. That is not to say the subject of the future isn't fascinating or compelling. It is terribly so.I'm not disparaging people who feel called to be prophets about the future, but I too feel I have to represent the Lord's heart on these matters to my family. In my case, my ministry to my loved ones is that the Lord's grace is sufficient...and since I've seen far more misses then hits, prophetic people should be prepared to carry the burden of proof upon their own shoulders. I do not trust fear to be easily preached in my household, because I've seen too much-unwarranted doses being peddled. If it's not the apocalypse prophets it's the prosperity prophets telling us that we are under a curse or that we shall not be blessed ect. It all stems from similar human weakness in my humble opinion. For even the mightiest of us are perhaps as a feather on the back of God's hand's waiting for his breath to move us this way or that. It’s natural that we should want to know what’s coming next. Yet it’s not prophecy that will ultimately save us. In fact prophecy may fail us...this is certain. But the Lord cannot fail us. I think we can all agree thankfully on this. Well, at least this is how I try to filter prophecies when I hear them.To my credit, whenever a prophetic person challenges me to consider my walk with the Lord, I am quick to take them seriously...even if I do not know them. Yet, on the other hand when a prophet tells me the end of the world is near I am equally quick to respond, "What of it? It's as Jesus said it would be...whether globally or individually this life is a vapor" We only have so many things we can invest our faith in... I seem more limited in my faith then many around me. It is enough that I can walk with Christ daily through this moment's sufficient issues. I sincerely apologize if my comments seemed antagonistic. They were really just protective of my own heart.Love you all,(and I mean that)MC

bro mikeI've never been able to reconcile much of the trembling prophecy about economic uncertainty with Jesus' words "And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you."well i guess up till now we've had work and stuff through which the Lord has made provision for us so it's not hard to see how the Lord provides. however when the economy does tank, it's not going to be so easy for us to belive that with no jobs or money. i think though that will REALLY test the faith of many.I do not trust fear to be easily preached in my household, because I've seen too much-unwarranted doses being peddled. If it's not the apocalypse prophets it's the prosperity prophets telling us that we are under a curse or that we shall not be blessed ect. It all stems from similar human weakness in my humble opinion. For even the mightiest of us are perhaps as a feather on the back of God's hand's waiting for his breath to move us this way or that. It’s natural that we should want to know what’s coming next. Yet it’s not prophecy that will ultimately save us. In fact prophecy may fail us...this is certain. But the Lord cannot fail us. I think we can all agree thankfully on this. Well, at least this is how I try to filter prophecies when I hear them.bro i feel you there, we should indeed hold all things to the light of the Lord and let Him show us what is His and what is not.love yah too bro!

i think though that will REALLY test the faith of many.Thanks Ironman,Yes I agree faith will be tested...and proved to be more precious then gold which melts in the fire. This is one of the many reason why I need brothers like you, to encourage my faith....not in strength or shrewdness for the end times but to be among those who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.I appreciate you brother,MC

I have not been able to shake away Ironman's first post here - his prophetic prediction about future events. It got me thinking about the different ways we could respond. We could simply deny it, thinking surely this can't happen. Surely God wouldn't let this happen to us, and will intervene on our behalf. Or we could live in fear about it. However, even then, we may be no different than our fear driven culture which constantly seeks to reduce the potential of harm, while remaining in in denial about the futility of their self-protective measures. My generation in my society has never known major societal collapse. So for us it about as real as the TV show that finishes in an hour or two. Even though Scripture frequently reminds us not to put our trust in anything in this world, I think that our trust in things in this world is woven through the fabric of our entire being - individually and collectively - more than we realize. I guess what I'm really trying to know is this: How can we be sure our sense of faith and security in God is not simply denial - an illusion. Oh, I must add one point: I believe that the teaching of a pre-trib rapture contributes to denial. "It'll never happen to me, because I'm going to be rescued from it all" I do not believe that Scritpure teaches pre-trib rapture. Quite the contrary, it speaks about us learning to endure suffering. (a topic for another thread) As Iromnan said, we need to be ready. But how can we be ready for something that is not a reality to us? I wonder if a lot of our measures are like trying to build up our muscles by reading a book about muscles. May God strengthen our faith. Diane

bro mikeYes I agree faith will be tested...and proved to be more precious then gold which melts in the fire. This is one of the many reason why I need brothers like you, to encourage my faith....not in strength or shrewdness for the end times but to be among those who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.it will be like it was for those that went before us, learning to lean wholly on God even in and especially in times where nothing is certain. by the Lord's own grace He's quickenning me and equipping me for the work He has for me and a part of it is learning to trust Him in all and for all. The Lord has been most gracious in allowing us to felloship like this and be used of Him to minister to one another to stay encouraged therefore to God be all the praises, glory and honour.AMEN. the bottom line as you said is to be one who is kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

sis Dianeour perception of God has been twisted from that of a very sovereign God to a teddy-bear who wouldn't let His children suffer. If Christ the Son of God who was without blame suffered, what right to we have to think we won't have to endure some persecution. i guess this is why i'm somewhat leary of the whole pre-trib rapture as most people see it, we get swept away unscathed. i feel more and more that before people are caught up, there will be persecution. a quick look at the O.T. will show us another side of God, then people will say the O.T. is irrelevent, but then again don't we say the Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever?you also said Or we could live in fear about it. However, even then, we may be no different than our fear driven culture which constantly seeks to reduce the potential of harm, while remaining in in denial about the futility of their self-protective measures. i'd like to key in on the 1st sentence. we've become a part of our culture as opposed to being a culture (if i may use that) entirely different from what is all about us. the Lord hasn't given us a spirit of fear, we have the peace of the Lord which suprasses all understanding. For us who have given our lives to God we need not live in fear because the Lord has His hand upon us which means whatever comes our way He has equipped us for. for those who will surely be martryed or endure other persecutions, the Lord very Spirit will be the means by which we shall all endure whatever befalls us. Even though Scripture frequently reminds us not to put our trust in anything in this world, I think that our trust in things in this world is woven through the fabric of our entire being - individually and collectively - more than we realize. indeed sister, we are not of this world yet we live in it so in some way we are affected by it. being that it is we are not of this world we must dissociate ourselves from it by cleaving to God, seeking after Him and doing as He would have us do. I guess what I'm really trying to know is this: How can we be sure our sense of faith and security in God is not simply denial - an illusion. well i think when the trouble begins in earnest we will know what manner of faith we have if its live or memorex. this i think is the reason behind trial and tribulation (or one of them at least) to test our faith in God to see if it's in word only or in deed.As Iromnan said, we need to be ready. But how can we be ready for something that is not a reality to us? I wonder if a lot of our measures are like trying to build up our muscles by reading a book about muscles. the whole idea or things falling apart is abstract to us all in some regard and for us to know if our preparations are adequate, we must go before the Lord and have Him show us what we are lacking. i think it ties into how we deal with sin in our own lives, if we don't let the Lord show us what we are in His sight with regard to this, i doubt we'd be open to Him showing us what manner of faith we have :-( let us seek the Lord honestly and desperately that He may show us what we are and what we ought to do.indeed sister, may God Himself strengthen our faith.AMEN.

As Iromnan said, we need to be ready. But how can we be ready for something that is not a reality to us? I wonder if a lot of our measures are like trying to build up our muscles by reading a book about muscles. I have the same question. Here is perhaps one suggestion for an end times training program."Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; ...Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently... For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:But the word of the Lord endureth for ever..."These scriptures consider the future within the discipline of living in the now. The sobriety to live faithfully with the moments we are given is really the only training I can think of...I known a few spiritual giants who can't seem to be reliable in the ordinary small mundane things. I admire their great courage and passion, but they lack the discipline of the moment. They seem to know deep secrets but can't seem to concentrate on their own families or their work. In the course God has given each of us to run, some of us are spiritual rabbits and others are tortoises if you know what I mean. Tortoises remind me of what Abe Lincoln once said..."I may walk slow but I never walk backwards." but I've learned that I must always face HEAD ON, anything that I sense fear over.I can really understand that sister. MC

sis dorcasThis might be an understatement, bro Ironman, but I agree with it wholeheartedly. Thank you for putting our hearts into words. that's the beauty of being one in fellowship in the Lord!

read this story from the AP today, wanted to post it on this thread.tonys Workers Have Chips Embedded Into ThemMon Feb 13, 6:25 PM ET CINCINNATI - Tiny silicon chips were embedded into two workers who volunteered to help test the tagging technology at a surveillance equipment company, an official said Monday. The Mexico attorney general's office implanted the so-called RFIDs — for radio frequency identification chips — in some employees in 2004 to restrict access to secure areas. Implanting them in the workers at CityWatcher.com is believed to be the first use of the technology in living humans in the United States.Sean Darks, chief executive of the company, also had one of the chips embedded."I have one," he said. "I'm not going to ask somebody to do something I wouldn't do myself. None of my employees are forced to get the chip to keep their job."The chips are the size of a grain of rice and a doctor embedded them in the forearm just under the surface of the skin, Darks said.They work "like an access card. There's a reader outside the door; you walk up to the reader, put your arm under it, and it opens the door," Darks said.Darks said the implants don't enable CityWatcher.com to track employees' movements."It's a passive chip. It emits no signal whatsoever," Darks said. "It's the same thing as a keycard."CityWatcher.com has contracts with six cities to provide cameras and Internet monitoring of high-crime areas, Darks said. The company is experimenting with the chips to identify workers with access to vaults where data and images are kept for police departments, he said.The technology predates World War II, but has appeared in numerous modern adaptations, such as tracking pets, vehicles and commercial goods at warehouses.After Hurricane Katrina, as body counts mounted and missing-person reports multiplied, some morgue workers in Mississippi used the tiny computer chips to keep track of unidentified remains

yeah one of my good friends, his calling was to notify people of the times and the things to look out for like it says in revelations, he is, as he claimed and it still sits well in my spirit, called to make aware the people of the times and signs to look for. this was something he told me about. this is what was said:its insertation directly conflicts with our faith, it directly conflicts with Christianity, to have it inserted you will be called to renounce your faith, now i dont know whether it will be administered to people by anti-christian men or whether it will just conflict with the faith by principal but as surely as you cannot have two masters you cannot accept this chip and the faith, this is what was told to me. he said at all costs refuse it, even if you have to die in struggle. it was suggested a martyrdom not a suicide. it was also said that this is in the final hours. guys we need to get the word out to people who ahvent yet heard it. every ear must have the chance to hear the word and given the chance to believe and be saved. im not taking the risk. not under any circumstances will i accept this chip. it isnt vital in my cause. i can still talk to people without one in me. my friend also said they were inserting them in under the skin of the neck just behind the ear lobe and i think it was the wrist or top of the hand. i just feel so sad hearing about this, but at the same time, it means we're so close to home...

John wrote Revelation to believers in the 1st century so they could understand what would happen in the last days. Now, while the Spirit may have given John a vision of governments and employers implanting microchips for IDs and credit card purchases, he was terribly misguided if he thought his readers would understand his vision in that way. They were supposed to hear and understand, according to Christ and John. They didn't have lanterns, let alone lightbulbs, let alone electronic microchips and computers. If this is what they were supposed to understand, the church would have long tossed the Revelation out b\\c John was kooky.I do not believe the Bible teaches that a microchip will damn someone to hell and negate the grace of God, nor will rejecting a microchip get you to heaven. Zac Poonen has a good perspective on these passages of scripture: http://poonen.org/zac/the_final_triumph.html

I do not believe the Bible teaches that a microchip will damn someone to hell and negate the grace of God, nor will rejecting a microchip get you to heaven.Perhaps the real danger is that things like the microchip, etc can be like a red herring - that is they distract us. While we are running after "red-herrings" the enemy is subtly drawing us away. The enemy works in the spiritual realm, it deceives through working on our minds, not our skin. The enemy influences us to fear what we are not to fear. It seeks to weaken our faith in Christ, and our understanding of his ways. If we do not have spiritual discernment, we are in danger, because there will always be temptations bombarding us. Not only that, without spiritual discernment we may mistaken the work of God for the work of the devil. It happens a lot. Diane

i like your anwser!when learning how to interpret scripture, people must understand when the bible is speaking in typology and literal translation. You don't have to be a learned man to understand this you just have to have the holy spirit to guide you, just a quick interpretation is- the mark of the beast 666 - the text is symbolic but also spiritual this is a spiritual discription and means 6 represents man to say it three times is to say man, man, man this is describing man's heart and the attitude he has towards God, so the sign is when men's hearts focus entirey on them selves without God in there lives, we are seeing the end times. Can we not see that today!

You don't have to be a learned man to understand this you just have to have the Holy Spirit to guide you,You know, it just occurred to me that the passages about the image, the beast, 666, etc never include adminishions to the church to try to figure them out, or guard against them. They are just mentioned as a future historical fact. In Revelation all the instructions to the churches are in chapters 2 and 3. If we follow the specific instructions given to us, then the rest will fall into place. Note that the instructions all have to do with getting our relationship with Christ in order - to be overcomers. It's like doing a puzzle. First we put in the pieces we know will fit in. We see part of the picture forming. Then towards the end, the more difficult pieces will just drop into their spot. So, why put in the difficult pieces when there may not be the appropriate spot for them to fit into. (without cramming and jamming and assuming)May we grow in knowledge in the areas where God calls us to grow, and many we allow God to transform us by the renewing of our minds. (Rom. 12:2) Diane

You know, it just occurred to me that the passages about the image, the beast, 666, etc never include adminishions to the church to try to figure them out, or guard against themactually, John says "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast" (Rev. 13:18). I'm not so sure there was a whole lot to "figure out" even if he did tell us to. His learned readers evidently considered this a simple thing. It was like a system where numbers correspond to letters, and it didn't take a genius or a prophet, just understanding, to figure out who it is. The preterists (with whose system of theology I disagree) believe it was Nero or Titus, b/c the letters in their name "add up" to 666 when you sum the corresponding letters in the Greek alphabet. Obviously, most of us are premillennialists, so the beast is yet to come, but I don't think the first century church would have had a hard time with this. Over the last 2 millennia, we have lost this "in translation" so to speak. Zac Poonen and Methodist commentator Adam Clarke talk a little bit about this, for reference.I don't know who it was/is/will be, so evidently I don't have understanding :-)

brethrenwhile refusing the mark of the beast is not a guarantee that one will enter heaven. the idea that such a mark will be one's ticket to buy and sell is compelling given how buying and selling is becoming increasingly electronic. perhaps the people who think this to be a chip of some sort may be onto something but the bottom line is we need Holy Spirit to minister to us or else we're lost. bro BeYeDoers mentioned that Nero's name added up to 666 so this brings up something interesting i'd been reading in watchman nee's study of the revelation. bro Nee says that the coming king who is antichrist is one of the 7 which had the names blaspheming God on their forheads. the caesars saw themselves as gods. nero was particularly brutal. watchman nee proposes that the antichrist who is coming will be nero resurrected.the study can be found here, i felt led of God to look into it and have learned much from it. as the Lord leads, check it out. http://ministrybooks.com/it's under the collected works of watchman nee