Could someone interpret these verses ?

[font=Arial]Hebrews 5:11-14 (English Standard Version)[/font][font=Arial]"Problem with Immaturity" and a "Warning Against Apostasy" ("renunciation of faith" or regression)[/font]11About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing (slow to understand). 12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. [font=Arial]Hebrews 6:1-12[/font]1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits. 4For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation. 10For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love that you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. 11And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.-------------------------------------------------Hoped this helped. I think using different "literal translations" and commentaries will help you get the full meaning from scripture. Study brings knowledge, awareness of truth and enlightenment. Hopefully discerning wisdom will follow close behind.

May I suggest a simple interpretation?This passage marks a division. Everything before it is "kids stuff". Although it's necessary, it's best to get it out of the way quickly and move onto the rest.The rest is the practicalities of how it all works.In other words, the first part defines obedience, the rest will make you obedient (ie, perfect).

YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:6 foundational things that EVERY Christian should understand.1. Faith Toward God2. Repentance3. Baptism by water (washings, after alot of time looking in different scriptures, i'm convinced that 'washings' is translated rightly and it means 'baptism by water' in our language)4. Baptism by Spirit (in other verses, in the bible, is called 'laying on of the hands' having the same results of 'receiveing/baptised in/with the Spirit)5. Resurrection of the Dead6. Eternal JudgementThe first 2 are intial salvation. The second 2 are after conversion. (they should be done as soon as possible). The last 2 put me for a loop. Because 'resurrection of the dead' has to do with the 'rapture' ideas.This is quite good, but may I offer a slightly different slant?The first three address the past.The fourth presentThe Last two Futrue.PastRepent: action on a desire to turn from sin.Believe: where we turn from "to" (ie, I used to doubt Him, now I believe Him).Baptisms: active transition from one to another. (Water: From sin. Holy Spirit: Into obedience).PresentLaying on of hands: Comission (as opposed to doing your own thing. Ie, submission)FutureRessurecction: Future hope.Judgement: Accountability.It is interestin to note that when the Holy Spirit (the comforter) comes, He convists the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement.Also check out Paul's "Mars Hill" sermon in Acts 17, for more on this theme.

Good stuff so far. I would add that the broader passage in Hebrews 5-6 clearly has spiritual leadership as one of the points in view. It speaks of the qualifications of leadership and how there should be evidence that God has called one to such a position. This was true also for Jesus, our High Priest. Even though Jesus was a son he learned his lesson the hard way , surely it is no different for us. When he had matured, he became an inspiring example of spiritual freedom to those who come under his discipline, having been approved by God as "a spiritual leader, a sort of Melchisedec." In Christ,Ron

I think it is often helpful to keep in mind the overall purpose of a passage of scripture. The Letter to the Hebrews was written to people who were in danger of 'drawing back'.“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”(Heb. 10:38, KJVS) and hence the admonition to 'draw near'.This has some bearing on this passage too. Note how that state described in the passage is the result of something that has happened to them, rather than something that has not happened to them. Confused? 1 Corinthians is written to a people where something had not happened to them; they had not grown up. But Galatians and Hebrews are written to a people to whom something has happened: they had gone backwards. The point is seen in “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.”(Heb. 5:12, KJVS) This is not just lack of progression, this is regression.As we read on we discover that the thing that had 'happened' to them was the result of neglect. Their senses had not been exercised to discern both good and evil. They had become lazy and were in danger of settling for the old comfort zones of ceremonial activity. Consequently, even although they had once had an appetite for strong meat they were now back onto their old childhood diet.Paul in Galatians describes Israel under the old covenant as being in a state of chlldhood. “Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:”(Gal. 4:1-3, KJVS) (see the contrast between the 'we' of old Israel and the 'ye' of the Gentile believers in Gal 5:6) Old Israel's experience had been one of being under tutors and governors. ie it had been the preparation for something so much greater. That preparation had its 'kindergarten' with elementary aspects of learning (Gal 4:3) The word 'elements' in Gal 4:4,9 really means the first steps of getting something into order, almost like learning our ABC and a basic building block of much that was to come.These basic building blocks of truth were given uniquely to the people of Israel. (Rom 3:2) ...“unto them were committed the oracles of God.”(Rom. 3:2, KJVS) The word translated 'elements' in Gal 4:4,9 is the same word translated 'principles' in “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.” (Heb. 5:12, KJVS)The people had been given the first words in their vocabulary for all that God wanted to say subsequently. (This is why the OT is so important in the study of the NT) I know this will be controversial but all the foundations of NT theology are to be found in the OT, and the writer to the Hebrews now quotes the OT foundations. All of these 'foundations' are to be found in God's revelation to Israel'...[i]“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of... 1. repentance from dead works, and of 2. faith toward God, 3. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of 4. laying on of hands, and of 5. resurrection of the dead, and of 6. eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.” (Heb. 6:1-3, KJVS) All these foundations had been laid in the OT. It is time, says the writer, to move on...

I need to 'rechew' brother Ron's post. Alot of it flows with stuff I learned in the past, but also new ideas.Some more to 're-chew' or 'eschew' as the mood takes you. ;-) “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of... 1. repentance from dead works, and of 2. faith toward God, 3. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of 4. laying on of hands, and of 5. resurrection of the dead, and of 6. eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.” (Heb. 6:1-3, KJVS)1. The first two are pretty easy to find in the OT but the locus classicus of 'repentance' is Jonah 3. This is how Christ 'defined' repentance. (Matt 12:41)2. and Abraham, of course, is the bible's definition of faith. The first time the word is used (the verb of the noun) is Gen 15:6but what of the rest?3. "the doctrine of baptisms"? this is a mistranslation and has had some serious consequences. There are two similar but quite different words in the NTa) baptisma .Matt 3:7; 20:22-23; 21:25; Mark 1:4; 10:38-39; 11:30; Luke 3:3; 7:29; 12:50; 20:4; Acts 1:22; 10:37; 13:24; 18:25; 19:3-4; Rom 6:4; Eph 4:5; Col 2:12; 1Pet 3:21but the reference in Hebrews is not 'baptisma' but to b)baptismos which is not 'baptism' but 'washing'. This word is used just 4 times in the NTMark 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Heb. 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. It is one of the vagaries of the KJV to have translated it by two different words in the letter to the Hebrews which puts us 'off the scent' a little. The second reference in Hebrews makes it very clear how the writer is using the word. Modern translations have frequently corrected this:“of [the] doctrine of washings, and of imposition of hands, and of resurrection of [the] dead, and of eternal judgment;” (Heb 6:2 DRBY)"and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." (footnotes: \t1.\tHebrews 6:2 Or baptisms (that is, cleansing rites)" Heb 6:2 ESV""of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment." Heb 6:2 NASB"teaching about ritual washings, laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." Heb 6:2 HCSBSo, this is probably not the best verse to use to support the various Pentecostal/Charismatic view of 'many baptisms'. ;-)

. and Abraham, of course, is the bible's definition of faith. The first time the word is used (the verb of the noun) is Gen 15:6Abraham is the definition of earthly faith.Jesus Christ is the definition of heavenly faith.Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.Abraham was not justified only righteousness because he believed God.We are justified by the Christ that is in us, by the Faith of the Son of God. Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. Abraham's righteousness was of the Law not of Faith.Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:I don't want my own righteousness or Abraham's but the righteousness of Christ is our need.1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.Not in Abraham's faith but in the faith of Jesus Christ who is our righteousness.Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:That is why Abraham's faith, that is his own worldly belief of what God has said was his reckoning of righteousness. We are only justified in the Faith and Righteousness of Christ because of His birth in us.In Christ: Phillip, righteous and justified in and because of His Faith of Jesus Christ that is in us.

Christinyou's That is why Abraham's faith, that is his own worldly belief of what God has said was his reckoning of righteousness. We are only justified in the Faith and Righteousness of Christ because of His birth in us.NO, we are not. That would be 'justification by regeneration' which is just as erroneous as 'justification by sanctification'. This is where your preoccupation with 'the faith of Christ' issue has led you.

JustificationI. Holy Scripture sums up all its teachings regarding the love of God to the world of sinners, regarding the salvation wrought by Christ, and regarding faith in Christ as the only way to obtain salvation, in the article of justification. Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18-21; Rom. 4:25; that therefore not for the sake of their good works, but without the works of the Law, by grace, for Christ's sake, He justifies, that is, accounts as righteous, all those who believe, accept, and rely on, the fact that for Christ's sake their sins are forgiven. Therefore the Holy Spirit testifies through St. Paul: "There is no difference; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," Rom. 3:23, 24. And again: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law," Rom. 3:28.II. Through this doctrine alone Christ is given the honor due Him, namely, that through His holy life and innocent suffering and death He is our Savior. And through this doctrine alone can poor sinners have the abiding comfort that God is assuredly gracious to them. We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion all doctrines whereby man's own works and merit are mingled into the article of justification before God. For the Christian religion is the faith that we have forgiveness of sins and salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, Acts 10:43.III. We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists, who expressly teach that good works are necessary to obtain justification; but also the doctrine of the synergists, who indeed use the terminology of the Christian Church and say that man is justified "by faith," "by faith alone," but again mix human works into the article of justification by ascribing to man a co-operation with God in the kindling of faith and thus stray into papist territory.Justification as defined by the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod)

jimbob's Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18-21; Rom. 4:25; that therefore not for the sake of their good works, but without the works of the Law, by grace, for Christ's sake, He justifies, that is, accounts as righteous, all those who believe, accept, and rely on, the fact that for Christ's sake their sins are forgiven.Justification as defined by the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod)I am split this sentence into two parts to give the opportunity of trying to see what they are saying. The first sentence, if it stands alone, I would strongly disagree with. This is universalism.The second implies that justificiation takes place because of confidence in a doctrine. I'm not much happier with that. Did Abraham 'believe, accept, and rely on, the fact that for Christ's sake their sins are forgiven'? The Scripture says that 'Abraham believed in the LORD and he counted it to him for righteousness'. This is personal faith in a personal God, not a doctrinal faith.

Nothing "doctrinal" about it, just scriptural. Abraham "did not waver in ublelief but GREW strong in faith, giving glorly to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was also able to perform" Romans 4:20-21.So Abraham did believe, accept, and rely on God, to me that sounds like "personal faith in a personal God". No "doctrine" there, just truth.Me thinks perhaps there is a bit of bias in your statement.Sorry if the first part( the whole world part) sounds like universalisim to you but the scriptures quoted also sound like universalism. And here is another scripture that sounds like universalism. 1 John 2:2 "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." Is the whole world going to be saved? Is he the propitiation for the whole world or not? There are several scriptures that sound like universalism, but I think are pointing more towards the idea that Christ did indeed "justify" mankind to the Father on the cross, but the taking hold of that justification is by faith. If not then these statements about the "whole world" don't make sense (to me anyway).

"justify" means that judge declares an individual to be 'just' of the charges which have been laid against him. Justification by faith means that God 'justifies the ungodly' (not the regenerate, nor the sanctified) who place their faith in God. To say that God requires regeneration before He justifies is to put the cart before the horse.

"justify" means that judge declares an individual to be 'just' of the charges which have been laid against him. Justification by faith means that God 'justifies the ungodly' (not the regenerate, nor the sanctified) who place their faith in God. To say that God requires regeneration before He justifies is to put the cart before the horse.Amen! For that matter, it is the actual act of justification that changes the nature of man. For when God declares the sinner justified, that man is actually now made justified. The decree of God to the man actually produces a change in him, and this change is regeneration.

Not in Abraham's faith but in the faith of Jesus Christ who is our righteousness.We have the same faith as Abraham did. The same faith that justified Abraham is the same faith that justifies us. The same righteousness reckoned to Abraham is the same righteousness reckoned to us.Romans 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

philologos wrote:"justify" means that judge declares an individual to be 'just' of the charges which have been laid against him. Justification by faith means that God 'justifies the ungodly' (not the regenerate, nor the sanctified) who place their faith in God. To say that God requires regeneration before He justifies is to put the cart before the horse.Believe it or not I understand the principle behind justification. So are you saying that an unregenerate person exercises FAITH and then he is justified? Thats what it sounds like. That would be quite an accomplishment for a dead man to exercise faith.But to get back to your original criticism which was a charge of universalism, do you believe Christ reconciled the world to God on the cross? Calvanists say no, He merely was a propitiation for the elect. I say He justified mankind (all of us) by His death on the cross, apart from any regeneration.I. Holy Scripture sums up all its teachings regarding the love of God to the world of sinners, regarding the salvation wrought by Christ, and regarding faith in Christ as the only way to obtain salvation, in the article of justification. Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18-21; Rom. 4:25; that therefore not for the sake of their good works, but without the works of the Law, by grace, for Christ's sake, He justifies, that is, accounts as righteous, all those who believe, accept, and rely on, the fact that for Christ's sake their sins are forgiven. Therefore the Holy Spirit testifies through St. Paul: "There is no difference; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," Rom. 3:23, 24. And again: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law," Rom. 3:28.There is nothing in that statement that says God requires regeneration prior to justification, it merely states that justification is by faith, the same thing you said. I really don't understand why or where your coming from on this.

Me Again,The writer of Hebrews also went off on his rabbit trails when he wrote the verses you quote. The context of the passage is comparing (through typology) Christ to Melchizedek the high priest who was not of the line of Levi, and on into the new covenant of faith. If you follow the whole train of thought beginning at Chpt 5:1 right through to the end of Hebrews the writer is making the point that salvation is not gained through the Levitical priesthood, and that our high priest was also the sacrifice for our sins, and that the law of Moses was a mere shadow of heavenly things, ect.This was a heavy meal of "meat" for the Jewish Christians to digest.

MeAgain want someone to exegete or explain these verses... Hebrews 5:14 "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."Hebrews 6:1,3 "Therefore "leaving" the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit."Notice what he said in vv.5:11 & 12"...seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.He was basicaly scolding them for not matureing in there faith. It's like a christian who has been saved for 10 years but only have the Knowlage, wisdom, and understanding of someone who has been just saved or maybe for a year at the most; see vv.5:12.They were also close to going back to Judaism from persecution Hebrews 10:32 But continually recall to mind the days now past, when on being first enlightened you went through a great conflict and many sufferings. :33 This was partly through allowing yourselves to be made a public spectacle amid reproaches and persecutions, and partly through coming forward to share the sufferings of those who were thus treated. :34 For you not only showed sympathy with those who were imprisoned, but you even submitted with joy when your property was taken from you, being well aware that you have in your own selves a more valuable possession and one which will remain. :35 Therefore do not cast from you your confident hope, for it will receive a vast reward.:36 For you stand in need of patient endurance, so that, as the result of having done the will of God, you may receive the promised blessing. and they were expecting the Lord to come soon in there life time:37 For yet a very little while he that comes will come, and will not delay. The writer is telling them to go forward to maturity and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. They shouldn't be laying again the foundations but building on them.They must have been close to leaveing the faith since the wirter warns them in Chapt.6 verses 4-9see also:Chapt. 10 :38 But the just shall live by faith; and, if he draw back, my soul does not take pleasure in him. :39 But we are not drawers back to perdition, but of faith to saving the soul.I hope this is good enough for you, if not keep asking questions.

Believe it or not I understand the principle behind justification. So are you saying that an unregenerate person exercises FAITH and then he is justified? Thats what it sounds like. That would be quite an accomplishment for a dead man to exercise faith.Ah, I think I see our difficulty. Those of a Reformed tradition put regeneration as the start of everything, faith, repentence etc. Others see 'regeneration' as the subsequence (not the consequence!) of faith.Although your comments re Calvinists make me think this is not your persuasion. We are moving into the territory that we have often discussed here as to whether or not the OT saints experienced 'regeneration'.

The writer is telling them to go forward to maturity and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. They shouldn't be laying again the foundations but building on them.Those to whom Hebrews was written were not only being encouraged to 'go forward', they were being solemnly warned of the dangers of 'going back'. I don't think Hebrews has 'stagnation' as its main thrust, but the danger of 'retreat'.This is what I was trying to explain in my post of 2006/2/6 16:38The only antidote to 'withdrawing' is to encourage them to 'draw near'. or in a differnent metaphor the only antidote to regression is progression. Not that 'stagnation' is ever an option; status quo is never a viable state for the Christian. :-) The 'not going on' was the root of the Corinthian problem. The 'going back' was the Galatians and Hebrews problem.