(I wasn't going to post, but I CAN'T ignore this, especially those who refuse to admit what is happening, and sign on to the obvious)Despite opposition from some of their colleagues, 86 evangelical Christian leaders have decided to back a major initiative to fight global warming, saying "millions of people could die in this century because of climate change, most of them our poorest global neighbors."Among signers of the statement, which will be released in Washington on Wednesday, are the presidents of 39 evangelical colleges, leaders of aid groups and churches, like the Salvation Army, and pastors of megachurches, including Rick Warren, author of the best seller "The Purpose-Driven Life." "For most of us, until recently this has not been treated as a pressing issue or major priority," the statement said. "Indeed, many of us have required considerable convincing before becoming persuaded that climate change is a real problem and that it ought to matter to us as Christians. But now we have seen and heard enough."The statement calls for federal legislation that would require reductions in carbon dioxide emissions through "cost-effective, market-based mechanisms" — a phrase lifted from a Senate resolution last year and one that could appeal to evangelicals, who tend to be pro-business. The statement, to be announced in Washington, is only the first stage of an "Evangelical Climate Initiative" including television and radio spots in states with influential legislators, informational campaigns in churches, and educational events at Christian colleges."We have not paid as much attention to climate change as we should, and that's why I'm willing to step up," said Duane Litfin, president of Wheaton College, an influential evangelical institution in Illinois. "The evangelical community is quite capable of having some blind spots, and my take is this has fallen into that category."Some of the nation's most high-profile evangelical leaders, however, have tried to derail such action. Twenty-two of them signed a letter in January declaring, "Global warming is not a consensus issue." Among the signers were Charles W. Colson, the founder of Prison Fellowship Ministries; James C. Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family; and Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. Their letter was addressed to the National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group of churches and ministries, which last year had started to move in the direction of taking a stand on global warming. The letter from the 22 leaders asked the National Association of Evangelicals not to issue any statement on global warming or to allow its officers or staff members to take a position. E. Calvin Beisner, associate professor of historical theology at Knox Theological Seminary in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., helped organize the opposition into a group called the Interfaith Stewardship Alliance. He said Tuesday that "the science is not settled" on whether global warming was actually a problem or even that human beings were causing it. And he said that the solutions advocated by global warming opponents would only cause the cost of energy to rise, with the burden falling most heavily on the poor. In response to the critics, the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, the Rev. Ted Haggard, did not join the 86 leaders in the statement on global warming, even though he had been in the forefront of the issue a year ago. Neither did the Rev. Richard Cizik, the National Association's Washington lobbyist, even though he helped persuade other leaders to sign the global warming initiative. On Tuesday, Mr. Haggard, the pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs, said in a telephone interview that he did not sign because it would be interpreted as an endorsement by the entire National Association of Evangelicals. But he said that speaking just for himself, "There is no doubt about it in my mind that climate change is happening, and there is no doubt about it that it would be wise for us to stop doing the foolish things we're doing that could potentially be causing this. In my mind there is no downside to being cautious."Of those who did sign, said the Rev. Jim Ball, executive director of the Evangelical Environmental Network: "It's a very centrist evangelical list, and that was intentional. When people look at the names, they're going to say, this is a real solid group here. These leaders are not flighty, going after the latest cause. And they know they're probably going to take a little flak."The list includes prominent black leaders like Bishop Charles E. Blake Sr. of the West Angeles Church of God in Christ in Los Angeles, the Rev. Floyd Flake of the Greater Allen A.M.E. Cathedral in New York City, and Bishop Wellington Boone of the Father's House and Wellington Boone Ministries in Norcross, Ga.; as well as Hispanic leaders like the Rev. Jesse Miranda, president of AMEN in Costa Mesa, Calif.The evangelical leaders are meeting Wednesday with senators or their staff members concerned with legislation on energy and the environment. Their letter commends senators who last year passed a resolution by Senators Pete V. Domenici, a Republican, and Jeff Bingaman, a Democrat, both of New Mexico, which called for regulatory measures like a cap and trade program, a system in which industries would buy or trade permits to emit greenhouse gases. In their statement, the evangelicals praised companies like BP, Shell, General Electric, Cinergy, Duke Energy and DuPont that it said "have moved ahead of the pace of government action through innovative measures" to reduce emissions.The television spot links images of drought, starvation and Hurricane Katrina to global warming. In it, the Rev. Joel Hunter, pastor of a megachurch in Longwood, Fla., says: "As Christians, our faith in Jesus Christ compels us to love our neighbors and to be stewards of God's creation. The good news is that with God's help, we can stop global warming, for our kids, our world and for the Lord." The advertisements are to be shown in Arkansas, Florida, Kansas, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee and Virginia.The Evangelical Climate Initiative, at a cost of several hundred thousand dollars, is being supported by individuals and foundations, including the Pew Charitable Trusts, the Hewlett Foundation and the Rockefeller Brothers Foundation. The initiative is one indication of a growing urgency about climate change among religious groups, said Paul Gorman, executive director of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment, a clearinghouse in Amherst, Mass., for environmental initiatives by religious groups.Interfaith climate campaigns in 15 states are pressing for regional standards to reduce greenhouse gases, Mr. Gorman said. Jewish, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox leaders also have campaigns under way.
86 Evangelical Leaders Join to Fight Global Warming
Hi Brother Neil,I just wanted to ask if you believe in global warming ?Very interesting article. Glad to have the heads up.Thank you for posting it.Keep posting.Annie
Hi Neilgin1,I guess after reading this and seeing much in the media concerning global warming these days I haven't been persuaded. Where I am from we are experiencing a very unusually warm and snow free winter. Contrastly, in Eastern Europe they have undergone a brutally cold winter. Japan recieved 4 meters of snow last month. Was Katrina caused by global warming? I don't know. Does anyone know? I keep very close attention to the weather in my area because I am in the snow removal business. On Environment Canada's web site I can track current temperatures and weather patterns along side trends from years past. What we would call an "unusually warm" winter this year is not really that unusual in the big picture. I make myself out to be no global warming expert by any stretch of the imagination. Like most things in the media today, it really depends what news network you are watching and what interrests they have. Ok, my point is coming. What is the best way for us to use God's money, to be the best stewards? Rev. Joel Hunter, pastor of a megachurch in Longwood, Fla., says: "As Christians, our faith in Jesus Christ compels us to love our neighbors and to be stewards of God's creation. The good news is that with God's help, we can stop global warming, for our kids, our world and for the Lord." Are we loving our neighbors by slowing down pollution which may be causing "natural" disasters? Are we loving our neighbors by prolonging the inevitable. So, if we spend these hundreds of thousands of dollars (which will likely turn into millions) on environmental issues which, is taking away monies that should be used to bring the gospel are we being good stewards? Jesus said that He will not return until every tribe and nation has heard the gospel and every last numbered martyrs blood has been shed. I guess what we have to seek God over is what is more important souls or soil? It's like humanitarian missions that feed the poor physical food and not spiritual food. They are well feed but are still going to hell at the end of the day so to speak. It has to be both. Humanitarian initiatives with the gospel. We have to be concerned with the earth that God has given us dominion over but we also need to be concerned with souls. As a brother always said to me "it's all gonna burn!". I would hate to see satan get the church all bound up in secondary issues once again at the expense of souls. K.P. Yohannan's book "Revolution in World Missions" has been helpful to me over the years in keeping me more focused.
God bless you dear sister, you cannot hear the tenor of a my voice in what I'm about to say,I believe in God, I believe that He sent His Son, fully man, fully God to take our sins upon the Cross, and that all accept this wonderous wonderful free gift of mercy will enjoy fellowship with Him and eternal life.That is what I believe.I believe the mercy of God is without limit, I believe He is slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness to His creation, that none should perish. I believe that we are given free will to accept the wonderous provisions of Messiah.and I thank Him for deigning to count me worthy enough to lift me out of the mire, lift me out of the world, seperate me, justify, sanctify me and present me without blemish in His sight, Praise the Holy Name of the God Most High.That is what I believe.Now , as to what I know: we are poor stewards of our Lord's creation. I am no scientist, but I have a degree of common sense. If you have a glass of clear water, and and drop by drop you put squid ink into it, you will no longer have clear water.If you have a room,and the air in it is clear and clean, and then you put 5 people in it, smoking cigars, and close the door, the room will be smoky and the air quality will become poor.Every year, we pour gigatons of particulate matter into the atmosphere. God is in His infinite wisdom must have some sort of filtering system, but we are greedy, lazy and most on this planet don't stop and think what an Intelligent Designer the God of Hosts is, how beautiful is the work of His Hands, And they pollute and despoil and rape and pillage.I need a house, I have a hundred trees, I cut down 15 to build this house, and I will plant fifteen more and give thanks to His name and say God, "Thank You Lord for this house, it is Yours, thank You for allowing my family to live in it.The new 15 saplings will grow because He designed such wonderous bio-systems.What mystifies me, are the 22 "evangelicals" who did not sign this letter, in fact they came up with a counter letter:But this fledgling movement -- dubbed the "greening of evangelicals" in a front-page Washington Post article a year ago -- has also met internal resistance. In a letter to Haggard last month, more than 20 evangelical leaders urged the NAE not to adopt "any official position" on global climate change because "Bible-believing evangelicals . . . disagree about the cause, severity and solutions to the global warming issue."The letter's signers amounted to a Who's Who of politically powerful evangelicals, including Charles W. Colson, founder of Prison Fellowship Ministries; James C. Dobson, chairman of Focus on the Family; the Rev. D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries; the Rev. Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention; Richard Roberts, president of Oral Roberts University; Donald E. Wildmon, chairman of the American Family Association; and the Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition....Its not the fact they oppose a Christ-centric stewardship of the environment, it's the other issues these men above support, while ignoring this pressing potential disaster which our children would inherit.Why not sign the Kyoto protocols? Why not work together to be good stewards of the Gift of God?and many would say, "because it's bad for business, bad for the global economy", and in that sentence, they indicate the name of their god, the god of this world.Thats what I know.
Thanks brother Neil for answering so succinctly.I'm still up for grabs on this one, because I've heard scientists from both side on this issue.But Polution is definitely a definite and we are very guilty there.Since you've gone out on a limb to answer or post this, I'll do the same and ask ... Do you believe in "Chemtrails" ? (SOME call those contrails).Well, out here on this here limb, I will say, yes I definitely do believe in them, because I'm almost 53 years old and have been a "sky watcher" since I was very little.I even went into Weather in the ANG. So, there ya go ... some of the substances found in these "chemtrails" have been "metalic" and could cause weather modification. Ho hum, I just thought you might like some company out there on a limb.Mine may be a little thinner than yours though .... HA.Love & Peace.Annie :-?
I can't believe what I just read, but one scripture kept speaking to me which I will share here:Proverbs 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.The only climate change we need today is the temperature of our hearts to go from being cold to red hot.Note: This post is directed towards those so called evangelical leaders, not to any member here.
Love Slave ? If you're talking about the "article" above ... you should state so ... or if you are addressing a "member's" opinion, state so. Be a brave slave.It is one thing to not agree with what "brethren" post, but to use Scripture to judge their hearts ... is stepping way over it.I'd say you'd be out of order there cowboy, 'if' it was leveled at a member here.Would you mind specifying to whom you are directing your post, now that you've shown us how red hot you seem to think you are, so that whomever can reply in kind ? Edited to add: Loveslave, when you Edit a Post so long after your intitial posting, please type "edit" there. Your "Note" above was added after my reply.Thanks !
What enviromentalist are trying to do is going to be pointless and fruitless in the days ahead. As jobs dwindle in the global economy the last thing the average worker is concerned with is saving the Earth. They will want to work, and if cutting down trees is going to bring in a steady wage they will do it to feed their families. The need will be in the now, not in a thousand years.The only way that this earth will be saved, and that is that every nation on the earth all agree to stop burning fossil fuels and coal. But this will never happen because there is one equation that can never be stripped from natural man and that is "Greed".David Wilkerson said in his book entitled, "The Vision" here is a quote;"Nature will unleash its fury with increasing intensity over the next decade. There will be short periods of relief, but almost every day mankind will witness the wrath of nature somewhere in the world. These record breaking changes will be above and beyond anything experienced in the past. Floods, hurricanes, and tornadoes will destroy crops, animals, and much wildlife, driving prices even higher and causing some experts to suggest that nature is losing its balance. WEATHER WILL BECOME DIFFICULT TO FORCAST. SUDDEN STORMS WILL APPEAR WITHOUT WARNING. Southernmost regions will be gripped by record cold waves and northern areas will experience record heat waves."Now I stopped quoting here because I wanted to give my opinion regarding all these disasters. I do not believe that these weather changes are a result of pollution, but rather that God is behind it all.Continue quoting David Wilkerson. "Discerning people will have within them innate knowledge that God is behind these strange events and is unleashing the fury of nature to force men into a mood of concern about eternal values. These violent reactions of nature will clearly be orchestrated by God to warn mankind........mankind will yearn for a return to normal conditions........"
I am not saying that I am red hot, no siree, I don't know who is to tell you the truth. I know that I love the LORD with all that I know to love Him with what knowledge or wisdom that I may have, but I do not love Him will all my heart soul mind and strength, because I don't know what still in my heart until He brings it to the light.Am I pepper hot? no I am not. Am I at least seasoned? I hope so. But as regarding this move to "Save the Earth", they are wasting thier time and money. There is a church in the world that needs thier attention and they spend it on the Earth. This only tells me that these evangelicals have either been hugging trees or licking frogs.So I go back to the same verse that I quoted earlier:Proverbs 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
Dear LS, I hope you understand my reaction.Now that you've explained, I somewhat understand, but when we disagree with another's opinion, we should address the opinion and be careful we don't make it appear that we're going for "the heart" of another.We can agree to disagree.My opinion will stand, but I would hope that you would not judge my heart.My opinion has been posted on this Forum before and I have never met with any rudeness from any of the members regarding it. Disagreeing maybe, yes, but that's as far as it went.I believe that God is involved in that HE has taken His Hands off of us, and left us to our own devices ... when I say "us", I mean mankind and this sinful nation and any other sinful nations.Technology is at the point now, where it is only comparable to Babel. "Nothing shall be impossible unto them" and causing global warming through weather modification is Big Business. That is all that runs the world any more ... Big Industries, Big Money.You were very right to say "Greed".The Word speaks of "the rich men of this earth" acting up in the last days and if you watch the parallels between Babel and the last days Babylon, you may see something in that.I think if you do the research on what technology is capable of and follow the money trail, you may change your view on "who's doing what" in the last days.God's word is all I care about, and not what any man says. Their 'vision's have been off before. When God takes His Hand off of a nation or any "people", they are left to their own devices, so, can we say, "God is doing it ?" ... yes and no.I appreciate your come back and understand better where your thinking is now.It's always best in electronic communicating to be as specific as possible.It is so easy to be misunderstood here.Thanks !Annie
My reply above here was to your first reply.I see you're posting that verse again in a reply I hadn't seen while typing my reply.Never mind ... I'm going to eat in peace.
Thanks Annie, and I do understand where you are coming from as well as where Neil is as well, and believe me I am not judging neither of your intentions or desires, I was only offering my opinion. Besides we recycle everything, we don't do it to save the Earth, rather we do it to save on less garbage going to the dump. It's more of conscience thing than anything.I hope that helps in understanding where I am coming from.
Yes, same thanks back at ya for clarifying for us.I did have that "peace" mentioned above.We can agree to disagree and still have that peace. Appreciate that. And by the looks of your cowboy, are you "coming from" Texas ?Yeeeeeeeee- haaaaaaaaaaa, been there.Peace again to all of us.me again
In between cooking, I'm thinking, I need to clarify more too.I think it may have something to do with where we see ourselves on God's timeline.I'm a tree hugger, of sorts, and take care of all the wild animals that come out of our woods, etc. But by the same token, I had to have quite an arm wrestle with the Lord, about what is going to happen to the earth and all of my animals in the days ahead.He has been preparing my extra-over-sensitive heart. But it's still going to be hard, cuz as it stands, I'd give my life for these silly stray boogers and my wild life friends.Oh hum ... this is getting too sad now.Be back after the Lord strengthens me some more.TTYL Neil.Love you brother.Annie
Did you know God will destroy those who destroy the earth? Really, check out Rev.11:18.I don't fear global warming, and I heard someone on a radio talk show that made a good argument that we could be headed for an ice age, but we are stewards of Gods earth, so that alone should dictate our actions regarding our waste.My two cents, keep the change...
Amen jimbob, that is exactly the verse that the Lord used to show me, the "who's doing what" part that I mentioned here on page one.Great two cents worth... plus some.Thanks !
Did you know God will destroy those who destroy the earth? Really, check out Rev.11:18. “The time has come for judging the dead….. for destroying those who destroy the earth” Rev. 11:18Yes, we are held responsible for the way we care for this earth that God gave us. I recycle diligently. Just recently I heard that all the recycled materials in my county has been going to the dump because of some political mess-up. So much for my conscientious attempt!I drive a car, and so I contribute to the pollution. Mind you, I drive a small car, and walk when I can. Yet I am somewhat a slave to existing technology and greedy people – I don’t have a choice – oh, yes, I could join the Amish and ride horse and buggy. Or I could stay home. But God seems to overrule and prods me to drive around and get involved in the lives of people – pollution notwithstanding. I always get nervous when I see the “save the earth” campaigns, I guess because too many times they have degenerated into big disputes and power struggles. Or they do little more than relieve the guilt of those involved. It is hard to stand against those who rule the earth – economically. Yet, I think it’s great that several Christian leaders are signing this and saying, “We’re not blind to this, and we speak against it.” But then, if at the same time these Christians are big consumers, aren’t they being hypocritical? . If they consume the market products, then they aren’t they enabling the greedy industrialists? Or, am I wrong. Do these Christians consume less than the average non-Christian citizen? It seems like they like their worldly commodities – their big buildings, cars, furniture, holidays, mobile homes, etcI can see the reasons behind those who refuse to sign: we are called to save souls first and foremost. The best way to save the earth is by saving souls. After all a saved soul is not greedy, will not exploit the poor, and will not abuse the earth. I can’t help but wonder. So many Christians are trying to change the world by exerting EXTERNAL pressure on the sinners, but I believe that we are to influence INTERNAL change in the hearts of people. “Heaven and earth will pass away……….” Really, I see both sides. I’m so thankful that God can guide me as to where and how I am to be involved in my little circle of influence.
...politically powerful evangelicals, including Charles W. Colson, founder of Prison Fellowship Ministries; James C. Dobson, chairman of Focus on the Family; the Rev. D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries; the Rev. Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention; Richard Roberts, president of Oral Roberts University; Donald E. Wildmon, chairman of the American Family Association; and the Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition....What a mean bunch.Watergate, end times forcasters, etc, etc...Politically powerful: Kyoto would hurt their cronies' interests. They, and many of us, have co-opted into the GOPs misinformation and promises (I am no DEM, BTW).They would kill true Christian worship in the USA to make it a 'Christian nation'.As for jobs; will our children have any?
I can’t help but wonder. So many Christians are trying to change the world by exerting EXTERNAL pressure on the sinners, but I believe that we are to influence INTERNAL change in the hearts of people. Which then would rightly interpt the external
Which then would rightly interpt the externalI'm not sure I understand the question, but will share a few thoughts, though it might not make any sense: Hopefully lobbying the government pricks the consciences of the polititions - ie those who blindly run ahead in their own ambition and ignore those whom they are responsible to protect. But I'm not convinced. I fear that it just makes them more clever in their methods of pleasing the public. I fear that putting pressure on the political leaders in the long run only erodes our freedoms but doesn't cure the problems. They want our votes, because their existance depends on it. So they make laws to appease those who put pressure on them. And we gradually have more and more laws that restrict us. Yet no one changes. Their hearts haven't changed on the inside. Neither has their compassion for the poor, the oppressed, or the earth. So, as has been said, the poor have to pay the price - only bigger now. I do believe this, that God has called us to influence our society through loving others - one at at time, from the heart. We do not need to wait for love to be legislated. And we don't need to wait for laws to allow us religious freedom. We are always FREE TO LOVE, to be living letters, to be ministers of reconciliation. No one can stop us of that, because no one can control what's inside us. The more rules we have, the more we depend on them to make us feel righteous and secure. It is a false sense of security. Also, it is Old Covenant thinking - reliance on law to subdue sinners - not Christ's way. Yet, I'm not against this signing aggreement among evangelical leaders. After all, that's how slavery was abolished. (mind you it didn't solve the racial problem)Do I make any sense at all? I still have to think about these things. Just what if some of the claims about polution and the effect on global warming, etc prove to be wrong. Think how many scientific discoveries of the past have been proven wrong. (ex eating butter, red meat, used to be bad for you, now it's good) There can be another cause of global distress: Romans speaks of the earth growning because of the curse of sin - not just a natural cause-and-effect. Diane
roadsign wrote:I drive a car, and so I contribute to the pollution. Mind you, I drive a small car, and walk when I can. Yet I am somewhat a slave to existing technology and greedy people – I don’t have a choice – oh, yes, I could join the Amish and ride horse and buggy. Or I could stay home. But God seems to overrule and prods me to drive around and get involved in the lives of people – pollution notwithstanding.Actually horses produce methane, a green house gas! If every one had a horse, thats like four billion horses, merrily passing green house gas...hmmm
I am a conservationist... but not an environmetalist. I certainly believe that polluting the environment is wrong. However, there is an agenda behind most environmental groups, and it is based on humanistic evolutionary theories.There are also a lot of lies propogated by the environmental folks. There are holes in the ozone... HOWEVER, there is substantial evidence that the holes have ALWAYS been there and at various times even larger than they are now.There is no proof of global warming, much less global warming caused by pollution. It is a theory, much like evolution.I think we as believers need to be about the business of winning souls to the Kingdom of Heaven, not getting caught up in causes that are temporal. Dont pollute, and care for the environment... but beyond that, I think we need to keep focussed on the more important things.Krispy
Hello...!I believe that taking care of the environment is important. Why? Because it is a gift that God has loaned us for a short time. Remember, "The Earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof... (Psalm 24:1)." I don't like a dirty, smelly house. So why would I want a dirty, smelly world? I believe that we should be good stewards of what we are entrusted with.However, I don't believe that the Kyoto Protocol was fashioned in the best interest of the United States. Why? Because there are many industrialized nations that have refused to sign this agreement. China will have nearly 2 billion citizens in the next decade. They are currently the primary strain on the world's energy supply. They also neglect the replenishment of vegetation. Satellite images have shown constant fires burning in southern and central china for years. I don't want to sound like one of those "neocons" that are hated so much by the media. The issue is indeed partly economic -- but not as the media portrays. If the Kyoto Protocol is signed, nations that do not sign such an agreement (or do not even attempt to fulfill the criteria) will be placed at a more competitive edge. This would lead to mass inflation in our nation. Jobs will move to continue to move to third world nations, like they have since President Clinton signed a trade agreement with China in 1999. Most of our electronic devices are now built and manufactured in China, Taiwan and Korea. They are cheaper, and would continue to be cheaper if the companies in the United States were forced to follow international governmental regulations (as set by Kyoto). This would lead to inflation that will hurt the middle class in western nations most of all. However, I have always believe that if Christians protested against abortion as tenaciously as environmentalists campaign for the environment -- then perhaps there would be a change in the genocide against unborn children. And could you imagine if believers cared as much about saving the world (people) as much as they desire to save the world (the planet)? :-( On a side note, my girlfriend often grows frustrated with me because I often urge her to recycle. I went to her house, and set up recycle bins -- seperating diverse trash cans (glass, plastic, paper, etc...).
brethrenActually horses produce methane, a green house gas! If every one had a horse, thats like four billion horses, merrily passing green house gas...hmmmand don't forget the many cows on this earth (and humans too) passing greenhouse gases. i was told some time ago that if anything was to blame for greenhouse gases such as methane, animals passing gas were to blame.*poot poot* cars emit CO2 and water, CO2 is used by plants to make O2 and the water precipitates. i'm beginning to think this whole global warming thing is hot air more than anything. according to some climatologists, the earth's temperature fluccuates cyclically and this is one of those cycles. i think though that we really should have more fuel efficient cars since the technology is available. it's good to see g.m. and ford are getting involved with developing hybrids. finally i'll be able to get a hummer or better yet a collosal ford excursion that gets 19mpg as opposed to 9mpg :-P
This reminds me of a guy I ran into on the street. I was speaking to him about things pertaining to life and Godliness and he was getting convicted. Then he asked (what seemed to be random), "what do you drive?" "I drive a 94 Explorer." Then he said something to this effect," You are a sinner! What gives you the right to preach to me when you sin?!" He went on to tell me how hypocritical I was because I drove a vehicle that destroyed the earth and was trying to preach righteousness to him....
I saw a study done about Hybrids, and whether they were more fuel efficient as well as economically efficiant. You would think that if you use less fuel, your gas bill would go down... right? Guess what! You would have to own the car for 10 years before you would begin to see savings in money once you consider the ticket price and the gas mileage and maintenance.I'm not sold on hybrids. I am all about burning corn alcohol. And in North Carolina... it's already being made. We just need to legalize it! LOLAs for the person on the street who called owning an SUV a sin... Well, we're all sinners. Some of us are just saved by grace and justified before God. Some are not.Some consider eating at KFC to be a sin. The chicken holocaust.By the way... I do belong to PETA. (People Eating Tasty Animals!)Krispy
I don't like saying this, but I'd say, do a Search on "Agenda 21".I don't like posting big articles and all, that's why I always just say, 'do a search on...'.Also, I've found, whenever you post an article, that someone doesn't like, they go to the Homepage of that Site to find fault with 'the messenger' ... ya know .... "kill the messenger" type thing. So this way, if they can do they're own search ... they can decide for themselves how biased they are or not.I figure, if people are 'really' interested in a subject, of any magnitude at all, they'll do they're own researching ... if not ... then it really isn't worth anyone posting articles or taking the time to. Right ?
Hi Krispy...!I saw a study done about Hybrids, and whether they were more fuel efficient as well as economically efficiant. You would think that if you use less fuel, your gas bill would go down... right? Guess what! You would have to own the car for 10 years before you would begin to see savings in money once you consider the ticket price and the gas mileage and maintenance.Actually, if you consider the real gas mileage (and not the false mileage that is included on the sticker), and with the increased price of gasoline, and it would take you 12 years to recover the added cost compared with a similar non-hybrid vehicle. However, there are instand and tax rebates available, but I am not sure whether or not they differ from state to state. I was interested in purchasing a Ford Escape Hybrid when I purchased my Ford Escape last year. Let me just say that it didn't take long to decide after seeing the difference in price!Some consider eating at KFC to be a sin. The chicken holocaust.By the way... I do belong to PETA. (People Eating Tasty Animals!)I am a healthy carnivore too. :-)
Troublemaker wrote:I don't like saying this, but I'd say, do a Search on "Agenda 21".I don't like posting big articles and all, that's why I always just say, 'do a search on...'.Also, I've found, whenever you post an article, that someone doesn't like, they go to the Homepage of that Site to find fault with 'the messenger' ... ya know .... "kill the messenger" type thing. So this way, if they can do they're own search ... they can decide for themselves how biased they are or not.I figure, if people are 'really' interested in a subject, of any magnitude at all, they'll do they're own researching ... if not ... then it really isn't worth anyone posting articles or taking the time to. Right ?Yes, I do feel you're a Troublemaker, Troublemaker, but then again, you do earn the right to repeat yourself when you get to be your age and even to talk to yourself a lot more.IMO,Me Again :-P
By the way... I do belong to PETA. (People Eating Tasty Animals!):-P Like they say in the south:"If the good Lord didn't intend for us to eat animals, then why did He make them out of meat?" MC
i wouldn't say that driving an suv is a sin but if someone is going to use that as an excuse to justify their own sin and refuse Christ, then his blood be on his head... By the way... I do belong to PETA. (People Eating Tasty Animals!)as am i bro Krispy!
KrispyKrittr wrote:Some consider eating at KFC to be a sin. The chicken holocaust.I do too,CHICKEN TASTY! MSG BAD! The real sin is Taco Bell, that stuff is just gross...Hey aren't KFC, Taco Bell, and Pizza Hut all owned by Pepsico? Don't get me started on conspiracy theories...
Now Krispy,Can you see this 5 year old voice I told ya about yelling, "Now you boys behave out there !" ?And to think that I called 'myself' Troublemaker ... Ha !!!You've gone and got the whole Team worked up now.As usual. ;-)
As for the person on the street who called owning an SUV a sin... Well, we're all sinners. Some of us are just saved by grace and justified before God. Some are not.Krispy, Earnest Oneill would have some very stong words for you. In one of his sermons he repeats your exact words. He talks about the bumper sticker that says: "Christians are not perfect. They are just forgiven." And the non-Christian reads that and says, "That's their excuse. They can do what they want, and get away with it. And if we do that, we go to hell"Maybe the non-Christian who points to Christians who drives gas-guzzlers has a point when he says, 'hypocrite'. If that's the overall impression that these 86 Christian leaders leave behind, then why should anyone listen to them.Diane
Krispy, Earnest Oneill would have some very stong words for you. In one of his sermons he repeats your exact words. He talks about the bumper sticker that says: "Christians are not perfect. They are just forgiven." And the non-Christian reads that and says, "That's their excuse. They can do what they want, and get away with it. And if we do that, we go to hell"No, you missed my point. You quoted me out of context because you neglected to quote what I said about KFC. Obviously driving an SUV is not a sin. Neither is eating at KFC. The man on the street who would call an SUV driver a sinner is using that as an excuse to ignore the gospel of salvation, and justify HIS sin by pointing out supposed sin in a believer.I wasnt probably as clear as I could have been, but I was not propogating a "Christians arent perfect..." slogan.I have no idea who Earnest Oneill, but he is not my final authority... the Word of God is, and the Bible tells us that as long as we live in these fleshly bodies we will continually fight the war between flesh and spirit... and we will still sin. Anyone who declares that we can reach sinless perfection is not teaching the Word of God.Krispy
The real sin is Taco Bell, that stuff is just gross...If Taco Bell is Mexican food... then why do I NEVER see any Mexicans eating there? If you want good Mexican food go where the Mexicans are. Just like if you want really good donuts follow a police car around... eventually you'll end up at a really good donut shop.Krispy
Krispy, I somehow knew you wouldn’t buy my line and would refute it. Earnest Oneill is an Irish preacher, who has some downloadable audio sermons on SI. I listen to him because I love his accent. Also, his testimony is a lot like mine, so I can relate. He spent several years as a good “faithful” Christian until the Lord convicted him that he was living his life in the flesh. Then he surrendered and was born from above – by the Spirit. He preaches a lot about what it means to live by the Spirit, by FAITH. And he distinguishes between life in the flesh and life in the Spirit. “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Rom. 14:23 KJV“…everything that does not come from faith is sin.” NIV Romans 14 seem to teach that it doesn’t make a whole lot of difference if we drive an SUV and eat KFC, or walk and eat hummus on whole-wheat crackers - while at the same time we are ruling our own lives. If we live a life dependent on ourselves we are living in sin. Period. The man on the street who would call an SUV driver a sinner is using that as an excuse to ignore the gospel of salvation, and justify HIS sin by pointing out supposed sin in a believer. Mmmmm this tactic hits a bit close to home, doesn’t it? Let’s reverse the characters: “The Christian who would call an SUV driver a sinner….is justifying HIS sin…. Reminds me of Romans 2: 1 “… in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.” And what is it that we all like to practise? ……… The log and the speck…. So let’s stop cutting down so many trees because that damages our environment and it also blocks our vision .Now, back to Tacobell……….. I like it. yumDiane
Diane, I can agree with your last post. I wasnt knockin' Earnest Oneill cuz I'm not familiar with him. I was just making the point that we will always struggle with the flesh as long as we reside in it here on earth.As for trees... if we cut them all down it would lower the amount of emissions from vehicles thus reducing air pollution. Think about it... if there were no trees the roads would be straighter, and the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, therefore we would use less fossil fuels.So get yer chain saws out and get cuttin'!! :-)Krispy
if there were no trees the roads would be straighter I agree. And we could all see better, and there would be no bushes to hide behind, and no leaves to use as cover-ups when the Almighty comes looking for us. So that was the real problem in the Garden of Eden - it was those trees! God should never have put them there. I'm glad we are progressing in our thought processes. Diane
Hi roadsign...!Mmmmm this tactic hits a bit close to home, doesn’t it? Let’s reverse the characters: “The Christian who would call an SUV driver a sinner….is justifying HIS sin…. Reminds me of Romans 2: 1 “… in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.” And what is it that we all like to practise? ……… The log and the speck…. So let’s stop cutting down so many trees because that damages our environment and it also blocks our vision .It could also be argued that the person who labels the act of driving an SUV as a "sin" is actually "sinning" his or herself. Why? Because saying such a thing is not done in faith. Rather, such comments are often made using assumption. I drive a Ford Escape (which is a small SUV). The gas mileage is actually very good -- even better than the last Mazda coupe that I drove. In fact, the gas mileage for my vehicle is quite a bit lower than many mid-sized automobiles. Fortunately, I attend school in an area of the country where the price of gasoline is also extremely low (currently under $2 a gallon -- while I read and hear that it is higher elsewhere). When I sought to purchase a new vehicle, I wanted to make certain that I had room to carry things, but the gas mileage was also important to me. Not only does it save me a little money each week, but it cuts my weekly requirement for gasoline. This translates (albeit by a small amount) to less dependency on foreign and domestic oil, and it also helps with the environment. I read the newspaper last week about how some members of Hollywood went to an award show. They rode in a limosine until about two blocks from the red carpet. Then, they changed into a small hybrid. They stated that they wanted to "make a statement" about the U.S. oil industry. After the show, they drove off in their little hybrid, and changed back to the limo two blocks later. While their statement may have seemed "honorable" in their own eyes -- it spoke only of hypocrisy in the eyes of many readers. Someone emailed me last night, but I accidentally deleted the message (and I forget who it was that emailed me). They wanted to know why I didn't support the Kyoto Accords if it would go to great lengths at protecting the environment. My response is that if all nations were bound by such law, then it might be helpful. Otherwise, it only hurts the cost of manufacturing goods in western nations -- and would result in the loss of jobs to third world nations, and inflation in such products here. This is most damaging to the working class. So are there alternatives? Have you ever read about how someone laced Tylenol with cyanide in the United States during the 1980s? Tylenol (and the other pain medication manufacturers) were forced to change their manufacturing immediately in order to prevent such tampering. Instead of Tylenol being forced to "reinvent itself" alone, all major pharmaceutical companies joined in to revamp the image of the safety of such medication. The government did not have to jump in with laws. And since all of these companies worked together, it didn't leave a single company at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, I believe that we should take care of this world. We were entrusted at this time of history. And like the verse stated that I included before, "The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof..." (Psalm 24:1). Are we good stewards of God's property? I definitely would take care not to trash a Church building where I meet. I wouldn't trash someone's home. And I don't believe that we should allow God's "footstool" to be trashed either. But of course, I am not militant about this. This is what I feel -- and I wouldn't attempt to force others to adhere to what I believe. Besides, it is a small thing compared with the fact that there is a world (people) that is lost without Jesus. :-)
Just some general comments:Biblically and theologically speaking, the first mandate from God to humankind is good stewardship over the earth (Genesis 1). That it is a God-ordained responsibility to take care of the earth is clear, at least to me.I urge, however, that Christians be better informed about environmental issues before jumping into conclusions. There are plenty of politics going on behind the Kyoto accord, and other environmentalist movements. For instance, Canada (my country) took pride in signing the Kyoto accord and some condemned the US for not following suit. But Canada's record in reducing emissions has been proven much worse than the United States (a fact that the ousted Liberal government is too embarassed to mention about).
We have four boys... we have a Chrysler Town & Country minivan. I dont think I could safely fit them all in a Volkswagon Jetta.I also have a Jeep Cherokee and a Ford F-150. My Jeep does ok on gas, but the truck doesnt. I only use it to take trash to the landfill, haul wood and other such things.We do what we have to do. Safety does figure in somewhere, and for a family of 6 a minivan is the way to go.Krispy
Jimbob said:Actually horses produce methane, a green house gas! If every one had a horse, thats like four billion horses, merrily passing green house gasFirstly I'd prefer breathing in horsey dodo then what cars emit any day. Secondly, Animals are excluded because their feces returns to the earth, give it a couple of years and it will become rich fertilizer. Crude oil on the other hand will not decompose, you put in the ground and it will kill everything around it, thats why it belongs where the devil lives, deep down in the earth where no life exists.I was just saying this to my Sister that we should be allowed to ride a horse in the city, though I'd have to train it when it sees red it means to stop, and green means charge into traffic. :-P
I just noticed the difference on the first post of this thread, and ... I really think we should close this discussion right now and take a moment of quiet reflection and PRAY for someone.Start another thread or something, just out of respect and I'd say 'sadness'.Thank you if you'll join me in that show of respect and prayer.No matter what, we're still Family.Thanks guys.Annie
For instance, Canada (my country) took pride in signing the Kyoto accord and some condemned the US for not following suit. Well, Canada is trying. And the result: some people in my area are hopping mad. This spring several 300-feet high wind turine generators will be constructed in farmers fields near where I live. The farmers are glad to finally make their land pay. But lots of people are upset because the windmills are a hazard to the birds, to the health, to the view, and they worry about devalued farm properties. So they are going to try hard to stop this from happening. Funny, they don't complain about living a few miles from the Nuclear Plant.... Diane
Corn alcohol you say? I think I heard my Grand Pappy speak of that stuff way back in the woods, the only legal place to talk about such things, *hic* :-P
Seems we all posted at the same time.I posted my opinion two up from here ... you guys decide.It's your call.His Love.
Hi Diane, About a year ago, my province NB is looking for land that will generate power using wind turbines. I think every home should have their own windmill. The costs are astronomical but its something that is going to be apart of our future generations, since they are saying that Oil will peak at 2015 or less, and that is not far away.Land value will not decrease at all, people move else where. I imagine that when they put those big power tower lines thru wooded areas that it caused such a stink, but they went ahead and did it anyway regardless of what the minority thought.Thats interestings news for Ontario.Karl
I imagine that when they put those big power tower lines thru wooded areas that it caused such a stink, but they went ahead and did it anyway regardless of what the minority thought.I've heard that people who live near these lines have a higher incidence of Luekemia. But, no, nobody complains because if they ever shut down Bruce Nuclear, this area would turn into ghost towns. The bottom line is $$$$$$$$. When your livelihood depends on something, you don't complain about it (nevermind the statistics). The ones who complain about the windmills aren't the ones having them on their property. every home should have it's own windmill. I agree, every home should have it's own windmill. But then it should have access to the power o that they could have some independence and self-reliance. The government is buying all the power from these windmills - keeps everybody dependent on the gov't.The Amish have some things right maybe - their own windmills. Diane
Healingwaters wrote:Jimbob said:
It was a joke.... horses....greenhouse gas.... ok never mindActually horses produce methane, a green house gas! If every one had a horse, thats like four billion horses, merrily passing green house gasFirstly I'd prefer breathing in horsey dodo then what cars emit any day. Secondly, Animals are excluded because their feces returns to the earth, give it a couple of years and it will become rich fertilizer. Crude oil on the other hand will not decompose, you put in the ground and it will kill everything around it, thats why it belongs where the devil lives, deep down in the earth where no life exists.I was just saying this to my Sister that we should be allowed to ride a horse in the city, though I'd have to train it when it sees red it means to stop, and green means charge into traffic. :-P