Gaither topic

First of all, we need to ask ourselves this question- Which approach will lead others to Jesus? It does say in the Bible that homosexuality is an abomination unto God, but it also says lying lips is an abomination unto God. If any of you out there says that they have not lied well then you just committed an abomination unto God. Church, there is a whole mission field in the gay and lesbian community that will not be reached unless we, as the Body of Christ, reach them. How will any of them see the error of their ways unless they are around the healing presence of a loving Church. We need to stop expecting people to be holy in order to be a part of the Church. God is a big God and he that began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it. We are all works in progress, so have a little patience and stop being such Pharisees.

mblawrence wrote: We need to stop expecting people to be holy in order to be a part of the Church. Sir: I beg of you to provide a verse with its reference to prove your point! I suggest you take any concordance and look up the word 'holy' and read ALL of those references and then come back and tell us what the Bible says about holiness!!!ginnyrose

What's that sound? pssssst- crack! Oh no, it's the sound of another can of worms being opened.... :-? I hope this doesn't turn into another 17 page arguement! (No, this post isn't directed at anyone in particular. Please don't throw rotten fruit at me!) ;-)

bro Krispyyou saidWhat is the "church"? I would recommend you do a study on what that actually means. If you are an unrepentant sinner you are not part of the Body of Christ... which is the church. Does that mean that those of us who are saved dont sin? No... but the difference is that we have the Holy Spirit, which convicts us when we do sin. If you claim to be a Christian and have no conviction of your sins, and continue on in it.. you are not saved.what sins do you still commit even though now you're saved which you committed before you were saved? if there is even one then by your logic here you would be unrepentant and thus unsaved and i know you're saved. or am i missing something? :-?

bro KrispyAs far as lying being an abomination, if a believer is caught in lie then he should be dealt with so that he is brought to repentance. Same thing for a believer who falls back into homosexuality (or any other sexual sin). Thats why scripture discusses church DISCIPLINE, but that goes largely ignored today as well. We wouldnt want to offend anyone and risk them leaving the church... right? Let 'em go, I say. I've had to ask people to leave before. It's never easy, but it was needed on several levels.but do we deal with believers who lie as we should? i don't think so coz we all lie at some point and oft get caught but that seems to get glossed over if it's noticed at all. i agree we should deal with (in Christ's love) with those who relapse into whatever sin coz guess what, we all do at some point. bro Frank (appolus) started a thread called "Are you an Adulterer", i think the thread ended up being 4-5 pages long or so, but the one on bill gaither and the 2 or 3 about the end of the spear easily had over 20 pages each. let's say (for arguement's sake that the total for the threads to do with homosexuality are 60 altogether, why is there that preoccupation? why couldn't we have more people speaking out about adultery?of course it should be left unspoken of or undealt with. however adultery and fornication are BY FAR the more prevalent sexual sins in the body of Christ yet we don't have the same fire concerning them as we do homosexuality and that's just hypicritical in the eyes of God. i'm willing to bet that 70-90% of Christians have committed fornication and adultery (even in the heart)or both and these sins are far more destructive to the body as more homes and lives are broken by them. how is it then in the face of alarming teen pregancy rates, kids fornicating at younger and younger ages and doing even more crazy stuff is there very little if any outrage about it?the unbeliever looks at this and says (even though this shouldn't be an excuse not to repent)"forget these hypocrites" we have got to start letting God deal with us instead of running from Him.bro Krispy you know i love you and we disagree on this issue on some levels but i feel burdened greatly of the Lord about all this.our problem is we like to jump up and down about sins we're not guilty of for whatever reason and we need to REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!

Maybe we should stop preaching against the sin of homosexuality and just preach against "sins" and make everyone feel good. Or maybe we should not preach against anything at all since we all have faults?? 8-)

bro KrispyWhat your missing is that word "unrepentant". There is a big difference between when a believer sins and repents for that sin because they recognize it as sin... and someone who commits sin but refuses to acknowledge that it is sin. Of course I sin, but I also am aware that when I sin I need to confess it to the Lord and make things right with Him... and whoever I may have sinned against.i think we're getting somewhere, but what of the sins we commit knowing they are sin and yet we continue to commit them, is that not unrepentance? or is unrepentance limited to not acknowledging something as sin? :-? There are many homosexuals who call themselves "Christians" who believe God accepts them as homosexuals, that it is not a sin... and that God created them that way... and in so doing they justify their sin. And that is what I am addressing.just as this is true, there are also many adulterers who make the same claim, so do many of our youth who fornicate also and this is what i pray we don't neglect coz this is a far more pervasive and destructive issue as more people are involved in such. And it is wrong for church leaders to join hands with this crowd under the guise of "ministry". Just the fact that we even have to have these discussions shows how close to the world's way of thinking the church has become.i agree bro, just as it is also equally wrong for church leaders to join with adulterers and fornicators, and liars etc under the guise of ministry. but then again, there is a lot of adultery and fornication going on too...just as we have to wrestle with the fact that the church is very lax on adultery and fornication shows also how close we've come to the world in the justification or neglect of these things too :-( i agree with you homosexuality is sin, let's just not forget about all the others while we're at it is what i'm saying. What ever happened to truth?yeah, what ever did happen to truth? :-(

bro Krispylike i said though in the post about lies, "we oft get caught" but when we do get caught is there discipline dished out?Say I treat someone wrong because I'm in a mood. I confess it and make it right to both God and the person I sinned against. There is no need for church discipline. However, if I dont repent but rather harden my heart and continually treat this person wrongly... then the church has a right to exercise discipline. Not to punish me or to exercise authority over me, but out of love for me to see me restored, and also to protect the people in the church, for a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.does this apply to lying also and other sins too? bro i'm getting a better picture of where you're coming from, i hope you're getting a better picture of where i'm coming from.are you?

Well, by that logic we should throw out the Bible completely because it was written by men who had faults.Love it!! :-)

bro KrispyI think we all have sins that we are unrepentant of. But whether people like it or not, there are certain sins that God does deem worse than others. Particularly sexual sins. We are all a work in progress, and none of us will reach perfection here on earth, but when a group of people stand up and say "What we're doing is not sin", and scripture clearly says "Yes it is"... thats a problem. The believer who finds himself in an adulterous relationship may not "repent", but I doubt very seriously that they would say "This is not a sin!". (Maybe they would! Who knows, with the worldliness that is in the church today...)well i would disagree on the last bit about the believer who finds himself in an adulterous relationship calling it sin. i'm sure there is a lot of ignorance, ie people being remarried outside of the bounds of scripture but there are those who know it's sin and yet remain in such relationships and even some who would contend they are not in sin.bro Karl brought up this point which the Lord showed me through sis Diane and bro Ron Bailey on a similar thread and a couple of others too. what should be convicting sinners is not so much our words as it is our conduct. Karl brought up D.L. Moody who upon walking into a trainstation and not even saying anything, people were convicted. the Lord's Spirit had so worked on him that it emanated from him and he didn't have to say a thing but just be there. that's a lot easier than getting into debates and shouting matches...let us all let the Lord deal with us unto repentance that our lives may testify to the Lord's grace and mercy such that we need not even say anything.Lord conform us to yourself by any means necessary.AMEN.

bro Krispyoh yeah we're not far apart, we're coming from different angles of the same issue. and yes the bottom line is that we are brothers in Christ and member of the same body and we need eachother.

But whether people like it or not, there are certain sins that God does deem worse than others. Particularly sexual sins.Where does it say that? Jesus did preach about looking at a woman lustfully as the same as (mmmm just as bad as homosexuality???) He also said you should cut off anything that tempts you to sin??? mmmm That's the answer! Shouldn't we at least give the solution at the same time as pointing out the problem. Diane

I presume that it's okay to challenge our own words. Regarding the notion that some sins are worse than others, I actually believe that to be true. Frankly, if I had a choice between having a murderer or a homosexual as a guest for dinner, guess who I would chose? There are some people in society who act aggressively against it. There is a reason we lock these people away. But there are also a lot of people who act out their anger and shame against themselves - self-abuse. Same root sin, but different behavior. Unfortunately society (and church) is bad at judging people's sin, and tend to only look at the manifested behaviors. Thus the squeeky-clean hypocrite in church is praised while the drunk in the ditch is shunned. Yet they all have chosen their own path while rejecting Christ's redemption. One can fake it better than the other - perhaps because one has more ability to do so.The topic of homosexuality is a never-ending mantra here, I suspect because people think it threatens the church. (an illusion) I think a lot of people just assume that homosexuals get up one morning and say, "Mmm I'm going to make a choice that will cause me to be shuned, shamed, rejected by my friends, ridiculed, hated... " Now, I ask, why would anyone do that? Perhaps seeking the answers to that will help us understand them, and then be better equipped to minister into their lives. If we fail, then the Christian Community will only continue to drive them away to form their own solidatity, pride marches, etc etc. A while ago I put up a thread called, "How to love a homosexual" It was a miserable flop. It started off with replies about all the evils of it. People used the thread to vent their anger. (We've come a long way since then)Maybe someday I will try again. Meantime: Why not try to UNDERSTAND them before we "speak against their sin"? As I did in former threads, I here insert the link to this site: Exodus: TestimonialsIt would be great if we could discuss these testimonials about what God has done in their lives. Diane

I am sorry that I have been unable to clarify my comments up to this point. I was unavailable for a few days. Healingwaters, you are close to understanding where I am coming from. I believe in holiness, but I understand that holiness cannot be attained through our strength, but only through Christ Jesus. We must rely on His sacrifice for our righteousness and nothing else. Our good works are as filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. Therefore we must take the position that all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, and have compassion on people who are bound by sin (even those who have come to the knowledge of Christ). Legalism is a form of witchcraft that destroys peoples lives and creates a spirit of fear. (I speak from firsthand experience) That is the problem with the majority of the Body of Christ today. Many seem to be afraid to move in their destiny due to the fear that has been planted in their hearts by false teachers. In conclusion, I believe that if the Church would reach out to homosexuals in a loving manner then I believe that they would be responsive to the Gospel and perhaps change their lifestyle. It truly is the love of God that brings mens hearts to repentance.

Sounds like someone has received true revelation. Keep on digging deeper.

{Quote} HealingwatersJohn preached Repentance to Israel!Jesus preached the Good News to Israel!Apostles and others preached Christ and the gospel of reconcilation to Israel and to the uttermost parts of the earth!Now can someone give me a scripture in the New Testement where anyone preached against sin to the world?..................................................Paul preached repentance.Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have showed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: Act 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.Peter preached repentance.Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;Jesus preached repentance.Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.We are to preach repentance too.Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

{Quote} KrispyBut whether people like it or not, there are certain sins that God does deem worse than others. Particularly sexual sins.{Quote} KrispyYou asked where the Bible makes distinctions between sins... not every sin is called an "abomination". The Bible makes it clear which sins are an abomination..................................................The following are some other abominations other than sexual sins:Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.Pro 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.Pro 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.Pro 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, Pro 6:18 A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

The Bible makes it clear which sins are an abomination.What difference should this make in the way we deal with sinnners? What difference did it make to Jesus?We are to preach repentance too.I think most assume that repentance means: stop a certain behavior, but Jesus and the Apostles meant far more than that: a radical change of direction - a surrendering/resignation of self-rule, and becoming a bondservant of Christ. I ask, how can sinnners turn to Christ if they have never met him (ie through believers) and in their experiences they see Christians as harsh, forceful, and rejecting. Or if they believe that God can't possibly love them, they are so flawed. The whole issue of homosexuality keeps on boiling down to this: our own relationship with God - our own repentance. You can deliver the goods only if you have them. You can preach the GOOD NEWS best if it (or rather Christ) is a reality in your life.Having said that, I am thankful that the Holy Spirit and the power of God's mercy works in spite of our human failings, and draws sinners to himself. So great is his love!!!!!!!!! Diane

roadsign wrote:Having said that, I am thankful that the Holy Spirit and the power of God's mercy works in spite of our human failings, and draws sinners to himself. So great is his love!!!!!!!!! DianeThank God for that or I would still be lost. :-?

When the law is ruling and not grace and truth, sin and death is rampant in the church.I think this is key, and wonder if you would expound on your words. Don't stop yet!Ex: What do you mean by death? What are some examples? Why do sins run rampant? How can we tell if a church is afflicted with this death-producing malady?What does a grace church look like? How does grace set the homosexual free?How do we get over the fear being permissive or antinomian - and thus permitting the sinner to "live like he wants"?What is our role in the implementation of grace and truth in the life of the sinner - yes, even the homosexual!?Diane

Joining hands with unrepentent homosexuals in ministry makes about as much sense as joining the Roman Catholic Church in ministry.And it makes as much sense as Jesus eating with sinners. That WAS his ministry, was it not? It was the Pharisees who where worried about his associations. And Jesus hanging around with the Pharisees was no different than hanging around the RC. The only reason he distanced himself from them was to avoid premature death. Why do you keep wanting to hold up a "flimsy white-washed wall?" That's like smoke and mirrors. Our religious structure (evangelical) is built on faulty foundations,(law, flesh, ritual, etc, rather than Spirit and truth) and has to be uprooted from the bottom up - a God-job. I say (as God has often told me when I asked him what to do about the sins I saw in the church), Let the dead bury the dead, and get on with your own walk with Christ. We can't change others, just ourself. And we can't even do that. We humbly seek revival for ourselves and God's people, and let the Spirit do the convicting and the uprooting. And that is not usually very pretty looking. When we join hands with darkness... darkness always wins.sooooo true.... Perhaps you could say, "Join hearts" May we keep our hearts reserved for God and God alone. Diane

Krispy, I do not wish to belittle your concern, but actually, enlarge it. You used the word “ministry” where I might be inclined to use the word “entertainment”.These days “Ministry” is used to refer to anything that happens on a “Christian” stage, but Biblically, it is a servant role, like foot-washing, symbolic of “ministry of reconciliation” (1 Cor. 5) – partners with Christ in the cleansing of hearts, restoring people to Christ. We have come along way from our true calling. The salt has lost its saltiness, and the Light is dulled, and so the church simply can’t fulfill their God-given ministry. Instead of sinners getting cleansed, they get white-washed. This is where hypocrisy comes in. It shouldn’t be surprising to see the existing church embrace its “own kind” – the non-repentant. Sadly, in its condition it cannot offer the hope of the Gospel when it doesn’t see its own desperate need for the Gospel. (I’m speaking generally)Think of Ananias and Saphira who lied to the Holy Spirit. Their hypocrisy was a dead serious concern to God, and he removed the defilement. After that no one dared join the church who just wanted to play church (or be entertained).The readers of 1 John were warned not to invite certain sinners into their homes – certain traveling evangelists – the Gnostics. These people were serious threats to the church. Today the church is embracing all kinds of heretical evangelists. I just have to watch the TV (Miracle Channel) and see where “Christians” are pouring their money. I’d say these kinds of ministry leaders are the most dangerous in our pulpits. The church continues to sing: “All to Jesus I surrender”, or “I have decided to follow Jesus, no turning back, though no one join me”(That song is one of the best expressions of repentance that I know) If God where to strike everyone dead who was not singing these songs truthfully, but were holding back something, then I wonder how much of the church would be left. Having said that, I do believe that sinners need to be in an environment where they can see and experience godly people, be involved in the context of healthy relationships, and thus be convicted in their own hearts of the need to change. If we, the church (I mean, God’s people in whatever setting) can’t function as a hospital for sick sinners, then where can sinners witness Christ? It’s too bad that the church is set up in two parts – the holy of holies (the platform) and the common court (the pews), those who “minister” and those who “receive” it. That is not Biblical, I think, and produces all kinds of issues of who can and who can’t do what, and fosters hypocrisy. The reality is, we do not have the ideal church, yet God hasn’t stopped working. He has always used means that shock and revolt the religious people. He has used the worst kinds of cracked pots to reveal his glory. There are many examples in Scripture, and if we look, we can see many today. Am I landing on your wave-length at all?Diane

I think we have hit the wall on this thread can someone please wave the yellow flag so we can pit and get a refreshment and a new mindset. :-P Poor Gaithers they must feel like Jeff Gordon by now. :-P :-P

"Joining hands with unrepentent homosexuals in ministry makes about as much sense as joining the Roman Catholic Church in ministry."As I have noted many, many times before--this forum tends to be very anti-Catholic. I realize this is fodder for another thread, another day, but I am always loathe to let Catholic-bashing slip by. There is absoulutely NO EXCUSE for a parrallel between homosexuals and the Catholic Church. As I have noted time and time again (and I am sure someone will take exception to) Catholics are our brothers and sisters in Christ and we should not bash them like they are complete heathens. Of course, there are many unsaved people in the Catholic Church (there are many unsaved people in church in the Bible Belt every Sunday, too), but many wonderful Christian Catholics spring to mind: my next-door neighbor, my good childhood friends, some of my relatives, many, many people in the town where I live.Catholic-bashing is so unneeded! Come on, guys!Phebe

...difference between hanging around with sinners (which Jesus did, and we should follow in His example), and joining hands with them in ministry (which Jesus did NOT do,..)Compromise can happen at the dinner table just as easily as on the platform! And both are wrong. Many compromise their fidelity to God and "join hands" with others, ie let themselves be pulled away from their affection to God by their associates - whether "sinners" or professing Christians. Whether Jesus was eating with sinnners or preaching in the synagogue, his loyalty was always to the Father, not man. And his influence as a Sheperd/leader/servant was just as important no matter what he did. That is the calling for all Christians, not just "ministry" people. Most, however, fail because they love the praises of man, or because there is something to be gained by compromise. In this case it may not be the "sinners" who are guilty of the greater sin before God. Perhaps God has permitted so many failures in the "ministry" crew to remind the Church that we must not lean on man, put man on pedistals, idolize man, or in any way lean on man. For they can all fail miserably. I think we must be cautious in judging one's loyalty to God according to their "ministry" associates. Jesus, in choosing Judas, was a good example. Diane

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