In Paris Reidhead's The Right Use of the Law he mentioned the fact that dispensationalism is like being pregnant, there's no way to half eat it. Interestingly, with the topics of End Time Doctrine and Jesuits coming up lately, perhaps this topic needs to be visited.What I put forward is to discuss the possible implications of Dispensational Teaching (as taught by the likes of Darby, Irving, Scofield, etc..) and how they have affected the teachings and philosophies of the Evangelical Church today. Personally I can see the following issues:Pre-trib rapture theory.Confusing the Protestant case against Roman Catholicism.Preaching the gospel without using the Law to produce godly sorrow.While I know that this has potential to get pretty heated, my hope is that there can be some intelligent discussion on these and possibly other issues. Perhaps some of us who, through painful searching, have suspected that some of the "sacred cows" that we have been assured are orthodox teaching by Bible teachers that we have trusted will find the "smoking gun" that reveals the "questionable" as downright "toxic".Please feel free to enter into this discussion, as I believe that some of these issues are of paramount importance when it comes to seeing revival break out in our own lives and church.Ladies and gentlemen, start your engines:-).
Implications of dispensationalism
Perhaps to contribute to this discussion, you guys might be interested in a short 30 minute lecture I gave at my Bible college giving an introduction to dispensationalism, especially if you are not really familiar with it.Dispensationalism LectureAlso, last semester I took a history class where we talked further about the part dispensationalism has taken in forming current evangelical theology. With the swelling of liberalism and modernism in the seminaries, and the falling away from conservative doctrine, dispensationalists were fundamental in insisting on the fundamentals of the faith in the late 19th/early 20th century, and essentially helping preserving such doctrines as the inerrancy of Scripture, a literal interpretation of the bible, etc. Because dispensationalism was pretty much synonomous with fundamentalism for many years, it is not overly surprising that many of us evangelicals today have adopted some of the "theological leftovers" of the dispensational interpretation of the Scriptures. Thus, doctrines such as the pre-trib rapture, cessationists views regarding the gifts, a sometimes fierce opposition to any mention of the Law of God and keeping God's commandments (anti-nomianism), etc.
Thus, doctrines such as the pre-trib rapture, cessationists views regarding the gifts, a sometimes fierce opposition to any mention of the Law of God and keeping God's commandments (anti-nomianism), etc.Yes, dispensaitionalists seem to want to always draw hard lines and neatly catagorize everything such as, Israel and the Church, salvation and discipleship, age of law and age of grace, etc...I think this comes from a failure to recognize that a subject may be described throughout the Bible in different terms or that different facets of a subject may be emphasized in specific contexts.I'm not aware of any church fathers, reformers, or Puritans who supported dispensationalism, we certainly have strayed from the "old paths".Implications? Far and wide. And so deeply ingrained in the teaching of the modern church. This could get deep, have to think some more on this. In Christ,Ron
InTheLight wrote:Implications? Far and wide. And so deeply ingrained in the teaching of the modern church. This could get deep, have to think some more on this. Deep indeed. But perhaps there is a time to look deep into things. This generation has little patience for deep things. Perhaps the prophet's words could be an adequate warning for us, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge".To quote Oswald Chambers:We are rarely taught to think along these lines. Thinking is not of first importance, but it is of mighty importance secondarily. The man who prefers to be lazy in his spiritual life may do well enough, but it is the man who has thought on the basis of things who is able to give intelligent help to those who are up against it.
Please feel free to enter into this discussion, as I believe that some of these issues are of paramount importance when it comes to seeing revival break out in our own lives and church.Hello CJaKfOrEsT,I'm curious if you might expound this statement abit more. I'm wondering if you are suspecting that dispensationalism's lingering effects are hindering revival.To be honest I am cautious in discussing this subject...we have a tendency to boil ideas we don't like down into simple and often negative stereotypes. While I am not a dispensationalist in the formal sense, I sigh whenever dispensationalism, like Calvinism, is wrongly portrayed as being compatible with anti-nomianism. (Indeed, these two schools of thought have been accused of ratifying sin...)So this is why, I would be curious if we could first, as a prelude to this thread, link the question of dispensationalism to the greater question of revival.Thanks!MC
Anyone who believes that the New Covenant 'followed' the Old Covenant is a dispensationalist. Now all we have to do is measure the degree. :-D
Compton wrote:So this is why, I would be curious if we could first, as a prelude to this thread, link the question of dispensationalism to the greater question of revival.By linking it to revival, I mean to say that the issues raised can be a hinderance to revival, as defined by Finney:(Revival) is the renewal of the first love of Christians, resulting in the awakening and conversion of sinners to God. In the popular sense, a revival of religion in a community is the arousing, quickening, and reclaiming of the more or less backslidden church and the more or less general awakening of all classes, and insuring attention to the claims of God.It presupposes that the church is sunk down in a backslidden state, and a revival consists in the return of a church from her backslidings, and in the conversion of sinners.I have intentionally been vague, so far, so as to encourage free discussion. As has been mentioned before, topics such as End Time Teaching, Eternal Security, Calvan/Arminianism, Legalism/Mercy often invite heated discussion. I guess I have openned up a discussion on a controversial issue, that links alot of these side issues together, for the purposes of digging through the "spiritual biggotry" attached to these things, and learn from each other what is so dangerous about embracing and/or rejecting these. That's all.Note, these issues won't stop a revival, however agreement on these issues could mean the difference in our personal life, and their application a catalyst renewed spiritual vitality through coming into a relationship with Him that is based on reality rather than fanciful ideas.
I think there is a danger in dispensationalism of becoming much like Lutheranism did: cold, dead, confessional. Talk of living a life guided by the Spirit or obeying God will make one suspect of being a heretic or being an "enthusiast." For I believe a lot of dispensationalism tends to create an unbalanced and unhealthy study of eschatology (doctrine of the end times), and in getting people so caught up in how the end times pan out, they forget to talk about how our current lives ought to pan out. Thus, creating a great hinderance to revival. It's no surprise that Ravenhill blasted it pretty hard on a couple occasions, along with shots at Dallas Theological Seminary, of producing a Christianity that in essence isn't practical and fails to display anything of the power of God. It's interesting how greatly interested dispensationalists are with the tribulation period, especially since they don't have any plans of staying around for it. Yet, they'll produce the most elaborate charts one can imagine in an attempt to explain Bible prophecy as they understand it.
I have intentionally been vague, so far, so as to encourage free discussion.Fair enough!I agree with Ron's comment...the idea that the New is replacing the Old gives credence to dispensationalism. However it's interesting (to myself at least) that Dispensationists don't follow this replacement vector far enough to arrive at 'Supersessionism'. Dispensationalism as I understand it is not replacement theology...I've never really understood why to be honest. I am curious what is meant exactly by 'dispensation?' It seems from my reading on the subject that there are two synonymous understandings; a convenant or stewardship of responsibilty dispensed from God to man, and an age or period of time for the world. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;Ephesians 3MC
However it's interesting (to myself at least) that Dispensationists don't follow this replacement vector far enough to arrive at 'Supersessionism'. Dispensationalism as I understand it is not replacement theology...I've never really understood why to be honest.Dispensationalism is not replacement theology because it thinks the New Testament Church age to be more along the lines of a temporary suspension of God's dealing with the nation of Israel, or as more common language "paranthesis" in relation of the Church to Israel.
It seems from my reading on the subject that there are two synonymous understandings; a convenant or stewardship of responsibilty dispensed from God to man, and an age or period of time for the world.This would be the correct understanding of the term "dispensation." A dispensation is essentially a period of time under which one is a manager/steward/governor of something under different rules. In a sense, it's like a regime change in Iraq. The Iraqi today is living in the same land he's always lived in, but there are now different terms upon which he lives his life out in that land.
In respect to salvation, dispensationalism pretty much is the system where the doctrine of "once saved always saved" came from. It comes from a modified Calvinism. Remember, Calvinism teaches a limited atonement for the elect only, and that those who are elect will peservere in this salvation until the end of their lives by a lifetime of faith. The plan of salvation that dispensationalists chart out is essentially a modified corruption of Calvins doctrine. Dispensationalism doesn't teach a limited atonement, but rather teaches that Christ died for all, and teaches that those that are saved will remain saved.The differences ultimately are in election and perserverance. The difference between Calvinism and Dispensationalism is that in matters of election, dispensationalism doesn't teach limited atonement. It is crucial to note though that in Calvins system, that Calvin taught that those that are geniunely the elect WILL live a faithful life of holiness. To Calvin, if you did not live a life of holiness, you were never really saved to begin with. To the Dispensationalist, holiness is essentially optional, and you can get saved and then go out and do whatever you want to. In Calvins system, the saint is not only promised to have eternal security, but a life of holiness. In the Dispensational system, the saint is only promised eternal security, where holiness is nice, but not required.Coming from the Wesleyan/Arminian/Pentecostal tradition of thought that I do, I don't practically speaking have a problem with Calvins doctrine. Where I would insist that you must be holy and live right, Calvin would simply say you WILL be holy and live right. Ultimately, the end result is the same, holy saints of God.Dispensationalism on the other hand, I have serious problems with, and so would Calvin. For Dispensationalism holiness and right living are entirely optional, as you are going to heaven rather you live holy or not. Thus, a tendency towards anti-nomianism amongst Dispensationalists.
According to Charles Ryrie dispensationalism is defined by the following;1. literal interpretation of scripture2. the unifying theme of God's pursuit of His glory3. a sharp distinction between Israel and the church.#2 I don't have an issue with. #1 I could shoot holes into all day long. #3 Actually teaches two ways of salvation.KingJimmy, I used to have a Ryrie Study Bible and you are right on the mark with your assessment of modern dispensationalism and antinomianism. I think this comes from the tendency to compartmentalize scriptures as applying to either the Church or Israel but not to both as one. They take "grace" scriptures (and using this compartmentalized thinking) they apply them only to the "Church".Then they see "works" scriptures and apply them only to "Israel". The result is in my opinion, a heterodox mess, resulting in a confused plan of salvation.Then there is their eschatology...
Yes, the word 'dispensation appears some four times in the NT as in 1Cor. 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. Eph. 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph. 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Col. 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; There are four other occasions of use of the Greek word as in Luke 16:2 (KJVS) And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. Luke 16:3 (KJVS) Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. Luke 16:4 (KJVS) I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses. 1Tim. 1:4 (KJVS) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. The underlying word is 'oikonomia' which is the word we get both 'economics' and 'ecumenical' from. 'oikos' is a house and 'oikonomia' was the responsibility of the 'oikonomos' or 'steward who was responsible for the administration of the household and its needs. You Americans sometimes refer to your current government of 'the current administration' and whenever I hear it I think it is a useful illustration of what the word really means. The US (and UK) government moves on from year to year in smooth transitions but at any one time the business of 'government' is the responsibility of a particular 'administration'.This is the underlying concept of 'dispensationalism' ie there is only one God who is working out his purposes to a single end but at different periods of time 'the administration' has taken different lines and emphases. The extreme of this view was taken by people like E W Bullinger whose biblical knowledge was quite phenomenal but who 'sliced' the Bible up into 'administrations' in which God's 'dealings with men' were different. His final result was a different church at each end of the Acts of the Apostles! The failed Petrine church having been replaced by the Pauline church. But even this was not the end as he 'discerned' a 'gap' between 1 and 2 Timothy. In 1 Timothy we have elders who will have been apostolic-ally placed, but he noted that by the time of 2 Timothy all this had failed and individual commissions are being given. This is much the same as J N Darby's 'ruined church'. This is the kind of 'dispensationalism' which most dispensationalists reject.This is a 'thorny' subject but I do trust we can discuss it in gentle and honest fellowship.
Hi Ron,Since the word 'oikonomia' is translated also as 'stewardship' I thought to replace the word 'dispensation' in the four passage with the word 'stewardship' to see if they still makes sense: 1Cor. 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a stewardship of the gospel is committed unto me. Eph. 1:10 That in the stewardship of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph. 3:2 If ye have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Col. 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the stewardship of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;I Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 3:2, and Colossians 1:25 seem to make more sense to me when 'stewardship' is used. I am trying to understand how the word 'dispensation' came to take on a meaning as far reaching as we know it today when all it really means is 'administration'. When I think of dispensing I am thinking of the action of 'distributing' or 'supplying' something. This is how I understand 'stewardship'. Today stewardship in my circles means a nack for being frugal with the Lord's money. A 'good steward' would not spend money on certain things, etc. Yet the word 'dispensation' has come to mean the way in which God deals with certain people at certain times. I suppose what I am saying, is that, if ever there were a time to cast off humpty-dumptyism and be pedantic it would be in our discussion of these words. An entire doctrine has been built out of this word; does scripture justify such a far reaching doctrine based on what appear to be shakey uses of the words?
RobertW wrote:I suppose what I am saying, is that, if ever there were a time to cast off humpty-dumptyism and be pedantic it would be in our discussion of these words. An entire doctrine has been built out of this word; does scripture justify such a far reaching doctrine based on what appear to be shakey uses of the words? Jude 1:3 comes to mind.
This subject is of great interest to me, as I have been very influenced by this teaching. Later I would like to share how I believe the doctrine has been harmful to me personally. But for now, I insert an article that deals with its origins. This writer sounds far too certain that he is right, and seems a bit condescending. I'm not convinced of all he says. But I add it here because I would like to know if his explanation of the origins of dispensationalism are authentic: Dispensationalism & Millennialism: Their Origin and Their FutureMany fine Christians embraced it when it became popular. Ironside, who in my mind was a mighty saint and Bible scholar, embraced dispensationalism and zealously promoted it. Someone said that he recanted later in his life. Is that true? Diane
Thanks KingJimmy for answering my question.Robert commented, When I think of dispensing I am thinking of the action of 'distributing' or 'supplying' something. This is how I understand 'stewardship'.I have also regarded stewardship as being faithful when entrusted with resources or responsibility. For instance, if I own rental properties, I might hirer a general manager to take care of my interests for me. He would also be considered a steward. I wonder if this applies to receiving the Gospel...are we being good stewards of God's grace? (Not only in how we dispense it to others, but also in how we respond in faithful obedience ourselves.) Do these verses convey stewardship in this sense?""And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. " An entire doctrine has been built out of this word; does scripture justify such a far reaching doctrine based on what appear to be shakey uses of the words? I'm not sure if this is the case. I wonder if dispensationalism had it's starting point and was derived from verses like these?... "... which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."Now where it's ended up is another story, but I do wonder if verses like the above were not the spark for the idea. This is a 'thorny' subject but I do trust we can discuss it in gentle and honest fellowship.This sounds good to me. (We can work together to rightly divide the Word and not the body of Christ ;-) ) It's worthwhile to at least understand the intentions of an idea, even if the idea ends with a conclusion we don't agree with. I've enjoyed the postings thus far. MC
Many fine Christians embraced it when it became popular. Ironside, who in my mind was a mighty saint and Bible scholar, embraced dispensationalism and zealously promoted it. Someone said that he recanted later in his life. Is that true? I think it is. My old Bible college principal used to discourage his students from getting into print too soon and used Ironside as his example, saying "you don't want to follow Ironside who spent the latter part of his life trying to undo the teachings of the former part."I found this Harry Ironside, one of dispensationalism's stalwarts, states -Having had most intimate acquaintance with Bullingerism as taught by many for the last forty years, I have no hesitancy in saying that its fruits are evil. It has produced a tremendous crop of heresies throughout the length and breadth of this and other lands; it has divided Christians and wrecked churches and assemblies without number; it has lifted up its votaries in intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent, so that they look with supreme contempt upon Christians who do not accept their peculiar views; and in most instances where it has been long tolerated, it has absolutely throttled Gospel effort at home and sown discord on missionary fields abroad. So true are these things of this system that I have no hesitancy in saying it is an absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth. here.EDIT: ah, better still, you can read Ironside's own words here Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.
philologos wrote:I think it is. My old Bible college principal used to discourage his students from getting into print too soon and used Ironside as his example, saying "you don't want to follow Ironside who spent the latter part of his life trying to undo the teachings of the former part."Art Katz is another good example of going on the record to soon. Early in his ministry he was quoted as having a "studied disinterest in prophecy", refering to end time doctrines that promote an "escapist mentality" in the church. Later writing Apostolic Foundations, he dedicated a chapter on Eternity, which emphasised the importance of having a mindest that is squared on the consideration of eschatology. Go figure.I think the lesson to learn is more one of avoiding concreting our allegiences to opinions, unless absolutely necessary. An then having the courage to retract when we fail at the above. Regarding Harry Ironside, I found this article titled What is Ultra-Dispensationalism?.
I know that there were some who taught "covenant" theology shortly after the Reformation. I believe they taught something like an evolution of the Abrahamic covenant in greater degrees of "light" until the New Covenant. This sounds similar to Dispensationalism. I'm wondering how covenant theology fits in with dispensationalism. Is Dispensationalism considered a branch of covenant theology or are they considered as two completely different camps?In Christ,Ron
Thanks for the info on Ironside. I had that question rumbling in the back of my mind for years - and suddenly now - here's the answer. I think someone mentioned about Moody being dispensational. I recall several years ago reading a harsh critique against MBI because they were "straying". I just found another article and am posting it here. I didn't read it all because it is just too much - going into egalitarian issues, etc. It seems like this is a mammoth package.Progressive DispensationalismIt seems like so much is centered on one modern day nation: Israel. To me this is idolatrous. God's kingdom is not of this world, and is within us, who are his followers. But dispensational adherants almost deify an ungodly nation and a wartorn city that three major religions are fighing over. What a tragedy. Diane
Jude 1:3 comes to mind.I'm sure you guys know this but just as a reminder, we are right to cite Jude 3 as justification for earnestly contending for our faith but if we forget 1 Corinthians 13 we are no more free from error than those we expose. I'm not saying that is what's happenening in this thread but I'm just hoping we can avoid the urge to take enjoyment in discovering "feet of clay" in others. I know that I have to check my own motives constantly when exposing error.In Christ,Ron
I'm just hoping we can avoid the urge to take enjoyment in discovering "feet of clay" in others.this is an interesting turn of phrase in the light of our topic. :-) Dan. 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. Dan. 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Dan. 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. Dan. 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. As regards Jude 1:3 and 'contending for the faith', I think that is a much more narrow focus and one in which we are enjoined to 'contend FOR the faith' rather than 'contending AGAINST the saints'. 'the faith' in this context would be the 'deposit' 1Tim. 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 2Tim. 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
'contend FOR the faith' rather than 'contending AGAINST the saints'. There is a vast difference in motives here, but it is hard to discern where we may cross the boundary. After all a person's beliefs are very closely knit with his sense of identity, belonging, righteousness, etc. I noticed that the Bible Colleges required students to abide by their doctrines or they would not be allowed to graduate. Frankly, under those conditions, you just comply if you want to graduate. This is hardly contending for the faith. But to question any doctrine would be viewed as "contending against the saints" That's how faulty doctines get perpetuated. In my past, I must admit that dispensationalists, for the most part were very nice Christians. They were important in my life, and I'm glad I never questioned their doctrine - at that time. It would have threatened my security and much-needed relationships. But years later, faulty doctrine catches up with us. The Bible had been presented in a way that was very confusing, and so I thought that I needed to trust in the experts to decode it. They told me that they were teaching God's truths and that they believed every word literally. The split between the age of law and the age of grace seemed more like an illusion . We were told we lived in the age of grace, but frankly, church operated on an Old Covenant foundation - really we were living by law. I saw very little evidence of life according to the Spirit. In fact, any indication of Spirit activity was quickly squelched. I was assured that becasue I was saved I had the Spirit in me, but I was never told what that should "look" like, or that I could seek guidance directly from the Spirit. In actual fact, I did not have the Spirit, and was not born from above. The more seious concern with dispensational adherance is what is actually NOT taught - the important truths of scripture that never get dealt with, in favor of this end-times stuff. So we are left with spriitual pigmies. And the fallout may take years to be revealed. Diane
I'm not sure if this is the case. I wonder if dispensationalism had it's starting point and was derived from verses like these?... "... which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."I think we are all dispensationalists to some degree. You can't study the Bible without realizing that God hasn't always dealt with man in the same way. I doubt that any of you bring a sheep or a goat to church for sacrifice these days because you understand that those things are no longer required. This marks a clear difference and makes us dispensationalists in some degree.As Ron pointed out the word "dispensation" is in the Bible and it comes from the Greek word oikonomia. Literally, it means "the law of the house"---oikos is house and nomus is law. It has to do with administration of a household.But, could it be that the harm in dispensationalism comes when we link dispensations to time instead of a level of understanding God's truth by His chosen method of revelatiion?In Christ,Ron
But, could it be that the harm in dispensationalism comes when we link dispensations to time instead of a level of understanding God's truth by His chosen method of revelatiion?Now there's an interesting idea. I think one of the dangers of what is commonly called 'dispensationalism' is that it puts things into water-tight compartments but to me the most obvious danger is that it has been used as a hermeneutic to predict the future. WIth some groups this has led to the prediction of a race of 'super-Christians' of the 'manifested sons of God' which has been part of the underlying eschatology of many groups. Whenever I hear something which sounds like 'God is doing a new thing in our generation' my antennae start twitching. To other groups it has become the framework for their understanding of the future of Israel etc and the whole visible evangelical movement has become either Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Mid-Trib, Partial Rapture, Pre-Millennial, Post-Millennial, A-Millennial. The aggression with which these different view-points pursue their case is a worry to me.I am a dispensationalist in that I believe the New Covenant is different to the Old Covenant and I see from Galatians that the Old Covenant was a temporary addition. “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.” (Gal 3:19 KJVS) To me the words 'added' and 'until' mark of the period of the Law very clearly.In some ways the Law was like the husk of a corn of wheat. It was a very necessary part and protector of the purposes of God in the lives of his saints, but when the 'seed' (I know this is Christ, but I am using it as an illustration) is ripened and freed from the husk what is the purpose of the husk?On the line of your quoted thought above, I often marvel at the lives of saints as Abraham and David; I am amazed and challenged. David is a key case. He was born 'under the law' and yet the tabernacle/temple infrastructure of the Law was in chaos; the ark being separated from the bronze altar making eg the Day of Atonement impossible to fulfil. It is from David we get such gems as... Psa. 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Psa. 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. How CAN he say such things positioned as he was in the period of the Law and its absolute ritual requirements? The answer must be that is some sense he was seeing beyong his 'dispensation' and enjoying the fruits of his vision. I do think that some saints do the opposite, ie they are really part of the New Covenant but their whole expectation is 'Old Covenant' and this must have an impact upon their experience.
The aggression with which these different view-points pursue their case is a worry to me.I find this to be a worry also. The dogmatic approach to prophecy in these camps is akin to the dogmatic positions that the unbelieving Jews took towards the first coming of our Lord. They knew the 'when' but not the 'what' (as I often say). When the 'what' didn't jibe with their own dogmatic positions they missed the Messiah and crucified Him! In my camp pre-trib is taught as if it were as true as the Trinity (no kidding). It is not up for debate. The answer must be that is some sense he was seeing beyong his 'dispensation' and enjoying the fruits of his vision. I do think that some saints do the opposite, ie they are really part of the New Covenant but their whole expectation is 'Old Covenant' and this must have an impact upon their experience.Certainly I find this also. I think it is why we don't hear more teaching on walking in the Spirit and so much on 'laws' and such. I am guilty myself. It is almost as if in the minds of some (to use your analogy of the husk), they just can't quite shed the 'shell'.
When the 'what' didn't jibe with their own dogmatic positions they missed the Messiah and crucified Him! In my camp pre-trib is taught as if it were as true as the Trinity (no kidding). It is not up for debate. Sobering... they created a building plan which was so perfect that when the Cornerstone arrived they had no room for it and so rejected Him.
How CAN he say such things positioned as he was in the period of the Law and its absolute ritual requirements? The answer must be that is some sense he was seeing beyong his 'dispensation' and enjoying the fruits of his vision. I do think that some saints do the opposite, ie they are really part of the New Covenant but their whole expectation is 'Old Covenant' and this must have an impact upon their experience.Great point! In Psalm 51 David knew that his only hope was the mercy and grace of God because there was no sacrifice in the law for "bloodguiltiness"(verse 14) which he was guilty of because of his dealings with Uriah. How can we then-as some dispensationalists like to do-draw a time line between and "age of law" and an "age of grace"? Man has always been under God's grace, whether it was this repentant plea that David made, or the promise of a covering of sin by the sacrifice of animals, or the blood of Christ which removes sin, it's always been an "age of grace"!In Christ,Ron
RobertW wrote:In my camp pre-trib is taught as if it were as true as the Trinity (no kidding). It is not up for debate. I think it's funny that most pre-tribbers admit that there is more than one eschatalogical viewpoint, but have no idea of what they are, or where their origins are. I have a close friend who is a pre-tribber, and when I asked them for a could source in order to objectively study the teaching, she replied "the Book of Revelation", and when she finnally gave me a source, it was so full of theological and historical holes that even a new believer could smell a rat.I don't say this to tear down the theory, in itself (although I don't believe it) but to say that I believe that most pre-tribbers are so afraid of persecution that they can't even begin to consider a post trib rapture, let alone pre-post-a-millenialism (and what is preterism anyway). I was shock to learn that "pre/post/mid" is only a side issue in the whole debate.*Edit* Also isn't fancinating that many modern dispensationalist (although many of them have never heard of the word) believe that we are in the "Laodecian" church age, when Darby put the rapture between the Philadelphian and Laodecian age. Wouldn't that mean that their secret rapture has already occured?*Edit*
Hello Aaron,you wrote:I don't say this to tear down the theory, in itself (although I don't believe it) but to say that I believe that most pre-tribbers are so afraid of persecution that they can't even begin to consider a post trib rapture, let alone pre-post-a-millenialism (and what is preterism anyway). You use the word “most pre-tribbers”, I cannot speak for “most” or “many”, but can only comment on my take on the pre-trib teaching. Scripture does teach that Christians indeed will go through times of persecution and tribulation. No question that the Godly will suffer persecution, but this is from man and the enemy of our very soul. The Great Tribulation as I understand it will be a time of the “Wrath of God.” And Thessalonians I understand indicates we as believers are not appointed to wrath, in fact the New Covenant’s message is Christ took that wrath in our stead. In I Thess 4:18 we are told to “comfort one another with these words.” of course which refers to the passages speaking of the Lord descending from Heaven with a shout, and the believer being caught up to meet the Lord. In my mind it is hard to find comfort, or to comfort others with a message that says believers will suffer a terrible, horrible wrath first?It is quite a unique eschatological area in that we all cannot be correct in our position whether pre, mid, post. But in this we can be certain, let the event be not of surprise, even though there will be surprise for someone as to the timing. God bless Aaron,tonys
Has anyone ever studied the Covenants and Dispensations and how they give understanding by being able to put God's Plan into perspective, that is His whole Plan for His Kingdom and having son's and daughter's in His House, I say son's and daughters as not to leave the Ladies out. In Christ we are all one, Children of God.The Covenants and The DispensationsOver the centuries believers have developed several methods of studying the Bible. Some study it systematically by topic, others use an inductive or deductive method to arrive at conclusions, still others divide the Bible into "stages" or sections to make it more manageable, many study guides outline studies by book, chapter, or topic, and yet others study it dispensationally. Although there is merit in all of these methods, studying the Bible dispensationally with the covenants marking the divisions is the easiest and surest way one can see the various systems God has placed in the Scriptures and get a sufficient understanding of what He is doing. The Bible's divisions do not neatly divide between books, chapters, or subjective "stages," so the best method to get the overall picture of God's program is to study the Bible using its own terms of "covenant" and "dispensation," letting them mark the divisions. Defining the TermsA covenant is generally defined as a mutual agreement between two parties. In the Scriptures some covenants are unconditional and continue regardless of the conduct of man, while others are conditioned on obedience. Each covenant God makes with man (with few exceptions) marks the beginning of a new dispensation. The dispensation carries on the doctrines God established with the covenant. Another word for covenant in the Bible is "testament," thus the 27 books known as the New Testament proclaim the new covenant God has made with man through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Technically, much of the first four books of the New Testament (the gospels) refer to events that occurred under the old covenant of the Law, but the atonement Christ made with his death and resurrection as revealed in the gospels made possible the new covenant of grace in effect today. A dispensation is usually defined as a "period of time" in which God works with and in His people in a particular way, but this is only partially true. Calling a dispensation primarily a period of time will not bear up under close scrutiny of the Scriptures. In the Bible the term "dispensation" refers to a manner, method, or particular arrangement of dealing with people God has chosen to dispense during a period of time, not the time period itself. Usually the length of time is not emphasized or even mentioned, it is the doctrines God has established to be valid during that time that distinguishes one dispensation from another. In short, a dispensation is a certain mode of testing God has dispensed to man, while a covenant is a contract or promise between God and man. The term "dispensation" is found four times in the Scriptures (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10, 3:2; Col. 1:25), and each passage makes it clear that God is dispensing something. In Eph. 3:2 it is "grace" itself that is dispensed, not a period of time called the "grace of God." God revealed through Paul how He was dispensing His grace to all men by making a free salvation available to them in Jesus Christ. This is contrasted with the Dispensation of the Law where God gave mainly law (though grace can be readily found in every dispensation). Under the Law obedience was demanded, obey the laws and live; break them and die (Gal. 3:10-13). In this Church Age of Grace, however, it is not obey the law but only receive Christ to be saved. In a nutshell, God simply uses covenants and dispensations to deal with man in different manners under different circumstances to teach and show him things about himself and his Creator. In Christ: Phillip
The Edenic Covenant and The Dispensation of Innocence:Obviously, all things begin with God, and God's dealings with man began the moment He created Adam. Genesis chapters 1-3 tell us God didn't create Adam to only lounge in a beautiful garden, He gave him specific commands to obey and jobs to occupy him. This contract between God and Adam is the first covenant between God and any man; it is commonly known as the Edenic Covenant. In this covenant God supplied Adam with many blessings, among them life, a perfect body, a perfect environment, a world without pain, hunger, sickness or death, and also a wife. All Adam (and Eve) had to do was to keep six conditions God had laid down to keep the covenant in effect with all its blessings. God told them to: 1. Multiply and replenish the earth (Gen. 1:28). 2. Subdue the earth for their use (Gen. 1:28). 3. Exercise dominion over the animal creation (Gen. 1:28). 4. Have only a vegetable diet (Gen. 1:29). 5. Dress and keep the garden they were put in (Gen. 2:15). 6. Abstain from eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen. 2:17). This covenant remained in force until Adam broke it by eating of the forbidden tree. God kept his part but man did not keep his. A trend that will sadly continue through every dispensation. The Edenic Covenant introduced the Dispensation of Innocence. The doctrines or requirements God established with the Edenic Covenant (above) expressed the kind of behavior He desired from Adam while it was in force. Remember, a covenant is an agreement or contract between God and man, it may be conditional (as this covenant) or unconditional. On the other hand a dispensation is the particular method of dealing WITH man God works under (the doctrines He has dispensed to be valid during that time), and the manner of behavior He requires OF man during the time period which began with a covenant. The Dispensation of Innocence is so named because Adam was created as an innocent creature and had no natural inclination towards evil or righteousness. Although Adam was not a "sinner" until he ate of the tree of knowledge, neither was he righteous in God's sight. He was merely an innocent, untested creature who had no evil in him to separate him from God, nor any righteousness in him to commend him to God. Before he fell Adam was in a kind of moral "limbo" which God apparently never intended him to stay in long. Some believers mistakenly believe the condition Adam was in at creation is the position a born again believer has before God in this present dispensation. They think salvation only puts them back like Adam was before the fall; that is, in an innocent state. If this were true a Christian could lose his salvation! Adam fell from his innocent position! This is a good example of failure to properly divide the Scriptures, and the Christians who hold this view are robbing themselves of some of the most precious truths concerning New Testament salvation. More on this later. With this case of Adam alone we can already see how dispensations differ from each other. There is very little the Dispensation of Innocence has in common with any other dispensation. Nowhere in the dispensations of Family, Law, Grace, etc., does God command anyone to subdue the earth, keep a garden, eat only vegetables, or not eat of a certain tree. These doctrines were valid ONLY as long as the covenant and following dispensation were in force. When Adam broke the covenant, its doctrines were superseded by the next one. When Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge he died spiritually (Eph.2:1) and acquired an evil nature, but God in an act of mercy and grace did not yet allow him to die physically. His body did begin on its trek toward the grave, but God quickly made another covenant with Adam which contained a promise of ultimate.Next, The Adamic Covenant and The Dispensation of Conscience. In Christ: Phillip
Phillip, I've been enjoying your explanations of the dispensations. These words especially caught my attention: A dispensation is usually defined as a "period of time" in which God works with and in His people in a particular way, but this is only partially true. Calling a dispensation primarily a period of time will not bear up under close scrutiny of the Scriptures. In the Bible the term "dispensation" refers to a manner, method, or particular arrangement of dealing with people God has chosen to dispense during a period of time, not the time period itself.If this is true, then it must make sense on a real-life level, not just in theological theory. Might I make an attempt here, using myself as an example: For most of my life I did not live in the "dispensation of grace". I lived according the Old Covenant. So it was pointless to hear that "we are now in the age of grace". That was and is not true in reality. Not only myself, but the vast majority of religious observers live by the old covenant - worshipping according to place and form - localized buildings, religious rituals, rules, etc rather than in spirit and truth. Reality and theological theory do not jive. There came a point in my life when God ushered me into his grace. And the difference is beyond what words could describe. I now understand why Jesus said that you can't put new wine into old wine skins. There will always be that tension as we try to fit ourselves into the existing old wine skins after God's spirit is birthed wthin us. I look forward to reading your other "dispensations". Diane
Christinyou's The term "dispensation" is found four times in the Scriptures (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10, 3:2; Col. 1:25), and each passage makes it clear that God is dispensing something.The English word dispensation' is used only four times but the underlying Greek word is used much more frequently. see earlier posting.Although there have indeed been many 'administrations' of God's purposes on earth there has always only been one way of acceptance with God; by faith. Some forms of 'dispensationalism' undermine this truth and create a salvation by 'keeping of the law' which was never God's intention in any dispensation, and later a salavtion which is achieved by membership of a particular race. Salvation was always to be the gift of grace and consequently was always received by faith. ... it is of faith, that it might be by grace... KJV Rom 4:16)
Romans 4:14-17 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.Every thing we believe is of faith, be it Law or Grace. I believe that the chair I am going to sit on will hold me. As I grow in understand and experience my faith grows, now I can climb a ladder and reach greater heights. The Word is the same, I grow by the spiritual faith that has been given me. As it is stated in scripture Israel learned from precept to precept and line upon line, which is the only way and unregenerated person can live. Christ came to change this and He states when speaking to Paul that He came to give us Faith that would build upon the corner stone, yea even the Chief Corner Stone, Jesus Christ Himself, by His Faith we will grow in heavenly things not just earthly.Truly we are sanctified by the Faith of Christ that is in us by His birth in us.Acts 26:15-18 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.Pretty powerful statement the we now live by the Faith of the Son of God. Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.We cannot build upon our earthly faith to reach new birth, we must build upon The Faith of the one that is birthing us. It is His Faith that is now in us not just the Faith of Abraham all men have. The dispensation of Faith by Grace.In Christ: Phillip
Although there have indeed been many 'administrations' of God's purposes on earth there has always only been one way of acceptance with God; by faith. By faith, Enoch was taken away (Heb 11:5), By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear... (Hebrews 11:7), By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed... (Hebrews 11:8), By faith, Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau... (Hebrews 11:20), By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel... (Hebrews 11:22), By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter... (Hebrews 11:24), etc., etc.It seems that the individuals mentioned in Hebrews 11 were all trusting in God to the point where it affected their behavior. They all had a certain amount of revelation to respond to. It seems that that revelation increased as time went on; therefore the responsibility increased. This causes me to look at the whole 'dispensation' thing from a whole different prespective. If dispensation essentially means 'stewardship' then it helps me get my head around the seriousness with which the men who preached the Gospel in the 1st century had done so. They were faithful to communicate the Gospel and handled it with supreme regard. Is it not ironic that while the whole 'dispensational' teachings were surfacing the 'supreme regard' for the presentation of the Gospel was proportionally deminishing? Now when we think about dispensation we don't think about our accountability to rightly present the Gospel- but some obscure doctrines that few can agree upon? Maybe this is taking things too far, but, what if we just retake the word 'dispensation' and start presenting the topic biblically (pendantically biblical)? I made a statement in the Sunday School class once about it being 100 years since the Gospel was rightly preached. And why should folk care about it when the whole concept of 'stewardship' (dispensation) of the Gospel and its having been committed unto us has been replaced by times and days and seasons of God's workings? Pretty soon there is no basis with which to even have a redress because the word defining the concept has been hijacked. :-?
Now when we think about dispensation we don't think about our accountability to rightly present the Gospel- but some obscure doctrines that few can agree upon? Maybe this is taking things too far, but, what if we just retake the word 'dispensation' and start presenting the topic biblically (pendantically biblical)? Pretty soon there is no basis with which to even have a redress because the word defining the concept has been hijacked.Hi Robert, I am way out of my league here admittedly and this is just a comment from the peanut gallery ... But my suspicion is that this like so many other words have suffered the same fate; "Predestination" being perhaps chief amongst them. Had hesitated a reply earlier due to it's length, still seem torn by either silence or long ramblings, have yet to find the middle to get an expression across. But I think you are on to something here.
Maybe this is taking things too far, but, what if we just retake the word 'dispensation' and start presenting the topic biblically (pendantically biblical)? I made a statement in the Sunday School class once about it being 100 years since the Gospel was rightly preached. And why should folk care about it when the whole concept of 'stewardship' (dispensation) of the Gospel and its having been committed unto us has been replaced by times and days and seasons of God's workings?I'm way out of your league here for sure, but I am curious how you would re-present this word "dispensation/sterwardship" in a way that would be helpful. I suspect that there is a bigger reason for focus on dates, etc - which cannot be blamed on the "dispensation" package/promotion. Just look at the hearts of man - we are always bent to stray away from the truths of our purpose, reason God called us.... Finding an appealing package is always an attraction. Satan knows just what will work. If dispensationalism never came into being, something else likely would have. I wonder how a modified/corrected presentation would change anything? Once people have something set into their minds, it has a tendency to stick forever. I looked up the word pedantic (not pendantic, as you spelled it) because I had no clue what it means. According the the dictionary it means: marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects [syn: academic, donnish]I'm so happy I learned a new word today. It would be interesting to see where strictly biblical usage of the word takes us?Diane
Every thing we believe is of faith, be it Law or Grace. I believe that the chair I am going to sit on will hold me. This is an often quoted illustration but I think it has some serious problems. This kind of faith is really based on past experience and probability and is a rational process. I think this is confidence rather than faith.Bible 'faith' is based on 'revelation'. Bible faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I don't only mean a Bible verse but that 'word' to our inner consciousness to which our conscience 'bears witness'... The sense of 'recognition' that causes a man or woman to say 'yes, I see it' or if they are from a 'good' background ;-) 'amen'. In fact, in the first use of the verb 'believe' (of which the noun is faith) is in Gen 15:6. and, would you believe it, the Hebrew word for believe is 'amen'!?EDIT. When the Hebrews chapter on 'faith' opens it begins by reference to the 'elders'“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.” (Heb 11:1-2 KJVS)I think, perhaps, that the ASV translation captures something more clearly than the KJV “Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. For therein the elders had witness borne to them.” (Heb 11:1-2 ASV) It seems to me that this whole passage is important in the way it totally disregards what men have called 'dispensations' and dips in and out of various eras without distinction; Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Jacob, Joseph and Moses' parents and Moses himself were all pre-law. That glorious woman Rahab (who James places next to Abraham) is in no covenant and under no dispensation but here faith puts the Israelites to shame. The next list, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepththah, Samuel, David and the prophets were all 'under the law'. In Christ's day a Roman centurian and a Syro--Phoenician who were also outside 'the covenant' were commeded for their faith.It is easy to miss the link in the KJV...Heb. 11:2 (KJVS) For by it the elders obtained a good report[u/u]. Heb. 11:4 (KJVS) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he [u]obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. Heb. 11:5 (KJVS) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Heb. 11:39 (KJVS) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: All the underlined phrases are various translations of one word 'martureO' which means to 'bear witness'. (this is the legacy of William Tyndale and his 'studied variety') If we view those same verses in the ASV... Heb. 11:2 (ASV) For therein the elders had witness borne to them. Heb. 11:4 (ASV) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had witness borne to him that he was righteous, God bearing witness in respect of his gifts: and through it he being dead yet speaketh. Heb. 11:5 (ASV) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God: Heb. 11:39 (ASV) And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise, ...we see that the translators here have tried to maintain the linkage. The sense here is that all of these people 'had the witness', that is, not only did they 'have faith' but they knew they 'had faith' God 'bore witness' to them that their faith 'pleased God'.One of the great dangers that we have visited often on these pages is that 'mental assent' is mistaken for faith, but we are not 'justified by mental assent' nor by our deep appreciation of the intracacies of the doctrine, we are 'justified by faith'.
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.Acts 26:18 is very clear about whose faith we are sanctified with, not by the faith of all the: "" It seems to me that this whole passage is important in the way it totally disregards what men have called 'dispensations' and dips in and out of various eras without distinction; Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Jacob, Joseph and Moses' parents and Moses himself were all pre-law. That glorious woman Rahab (who James places next to Abraham) is in no covenant and under no dispensation but here faith puts the Israelites to shame. The next list, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepththah, Samuel, David and the prophets were all 'under the law'. In Christ's day a Roman centurian and a Syro--Phoenician who were also outside 'the covenant' were commeded for their faith."" Yes, and it was reckoned to them as righteousness, reckoned righteous, and being made righteousness by Righteousness Himself in us are two complete different stewardships of Faith. One man's faith, believing what God says, and because of God's Grace being made righteous because of what they believe, not by the Son of God that is in them. The other believing what God says and being made righteous by the One that is in us and by His Faith sanctified and made literal son's by the Son's Faith that is born again in us. 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.Is our glory in Abraham by his faith or is our glory in Christ by His Faith. One is earthly human faith which God had to reckon to them as righteousness, the other the Glory of Christ and His Faith that has been made unto us by God that we might glory in Him and not Abraham. Jhn 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?The only answer is; Yes I Jesus Christ am greater than Abraham and God My Father Makest Me and I stand before you as God and His Son. This has to be two different stewardships of the Gospel of Paul which he makes very clear the two are separate. One the faith of Abraham which is not the faith of Christ, and the other the Faith of Christ which is God's Faith. One taking the outward appearance of “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.” (Heb 11:1-2 KJVS) The other as Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Who's faith are we sanctified by? The Faith that is in Jesus Christ. Again 1Cor 1:30Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Who's Faith? The faith of Jesus Christ is our faith and this is the Faith that will show the whole world who He is. What is the the power of this faith? Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.The calling by God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? The Faith of God is the effect that is needed to believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior, Lord, Life and Faith. What makes us just, not my faith, but the Faith of the Son of God by which we now live our lives. Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. In my words; not by my faith in the works of the Law but by the Faith of Jesus Christ in me by whom I live a faithful life in Him and unto God the Father who has given us this Faith of God In Christ Whom He Has birthed in us.Two different stewardships or the other word which creates such a stir, which I won't mention, one of mans faith in the Law that he thinks makes him righteous, the other that is Righteousness Himself that is in us.In Christ: Phillip
Quote:This is an often quoted illustration but I think it has some serious problems. This kind of faith is really based on past experience and probability and is a rational process. I think this is confidence rather than faith.It may be often quoted but it is still true. It does not matter If I have sat in the chair 199 times I still exercise faith whether it is learned of or for the first time, but it is still my faith. How do we learn the Faith of Christ? I can't learn someone else's faith unless I and they are one. How can a man know the mind of another man? I don't have the mind of another man. I do have the Mind of Christ and His Faith is the Faith in me that makes us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, wise, righteous, sanctified and redeemed. That is what God The Father has made Him to be, that is Christ in us the Hope of Glory. My Spirit cannot learn perfection for my spirit is perfect, it is the Spirit of Christ. My mind is the only thing that the Holy Spirit can use to give us the Faith of The Son of by which the Born again live, to bring us the the Faith of, that it takes to "Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect." These are our works by the Faith of Christ. "I will show you my faith by my works," The faith of the Son of God doing the works He said would be greater, not in scope but in numbers. May we all be filled by the Holy Spirit and the Faith of Jesus Christ.In Christ: Phillip
It may be often quoted but it is still true. It does not matter If I have sat in the chair 199 times I still exercise faith whether it is learned of or for the first time, but it is still my faith.I think we may have been over some of this ground before. I don't believe your illustration is a true illustration of faith. We just don't agree. I think your view mechanizes faith and makes it much less than the biblical expression.
I think we may have been over some of this ground before. I don't believe your illustration is a true illustration of faith. We just don't agree. I think your view mechanizes faith and makes it much less than the biblical expression.Agreed.Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Something to throw in here: Taken from "The Nature of A God Sent Revival" by Duncan Campbell: The Difference Between Human Faith and Saving Faith Oh, there is a difference between human faith and saving faith!I heard a prominent evangelist in Britain say something that really startled me. He said, "You exercise faith in a plane. You go into that plane and you exercise faith that that plane will take you to your destination. You go into a steamer and you exercise faith in the steamer and the captain and the crew to take you to your destination. Exercise that faith in the promises of God." Did you ever hear or listen to such nonsense? That is human faith! It is not given by God!Oh, Calvin was right, and I love to quote him, although I am not an extreme Calvinist-though I'm a Highlander. Calvin said, "We are saved through faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone." God is in it! Surely that is what Paul tells us in that great passage. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live. Yet not I, but Christ, He liveth in me. And the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the"-faith of Paul? Oh, no! That wouldn't get him very far. "I live by the faith of the Son of God!" The faith of God.Harvests of Infidels or Believers?Now I'm convinced of this, that if this truth was stressed, there would be less appeals. If this truth was stressed, our crusades and campaigns would not be producing harvests of infidels.If men and women would but recognize that glorious truth-"They shall seek me and shall find me when they shall search for me with all their heart." That means that they may not find Him tonight. They may not find Him tomorrow night. They may not find Him next week. They may not find Him for a month or for six months, but if they are seeking God with all their hearts, they're going to find Him, or God is not true to His covenant engagement.Oh, let's get this clear. It comes into revival. That is why I could count upon my five fingers all that I spoke to about their souls during the whole of the three years I was in the midst of it (1949-53).You see, in the Northwest of Scotland, if you were to press yourself and your advice and your help upon an anxious soul, he would be inclined to believe that it was man's work...just man's work. And he would much rather be left to God so that God Himself would handle him. That is why we have known people for weeks and longer in distress of soul before light broke in upon them.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Faith that is born of flesh cannot be changed to spiritual faith unless it is from the Spirit of Christ born again in the believer.John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? It is man's faith in the Law that he thinks he can be justified before God. Not so. It takes the Faith of the Son of God to bring us to justification unto redemption Whom God had made Christ our redemption. The Faith of Christ.Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.In Christ: PhillipEven the faith to believe earthly things are not believed when it comes to Jesus Christ. There is only one way to believe Heavenly things and that is by the Spirit of Christ that is born again in us.
Roadsign wrote:""Now I'm convinced of this, that if this truth was stressed, there would be less appeals. If this truth was stressed, our crusades and campaigns would not be producing harvests of infidels.""I too believe that if the Gospel of Paul is preached, that Christ is in you and you now have all of Christ and you can do nothing to be more perfect in spirit, for that is Christ. We can grow in Christ in our mind by renewing it with the Help of The Holy Spirit teacher that Christ ask the Father of the Comforter. There are so many times that Paul expresses the In Christ position of the Believer, It is his greatest emphasis in his Gospel, in fact over 200 times and 146 of them are very plain with Christ in us as our new life.If when I was saved, I would have been taught that I am perfect in Christ and I had a Teacher from God the Father that would bring to me all that Christ said and meant while He was hear on this earth and even more than that things greater than that.John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:Philippians 3:14-15 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.How do we receive revelation? By the Holy Spirit. How are we to be minded? We have a prize, it is our High Calling of God in Christ Jesus. These are the things that should be revealed to new believers, not what the Churches and man usually teach. Repent, be baptized, come to church, god to bible study, find out what gift God has given you, use that gift for your ministry, and on and on, etc. All this will make God happy with you and all these are works of the flesh that take faith of man in man, which things are not bad, but not the fulfilled Word of God Gospel. Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to (fulfil) the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:In Christ: Phillip
Hi Diane,I wonder how a modified/corrected presentation would change anything? Once people have something set into their minds, it has a tendency to stick forever.One of my favorite methods of bible study is word studies. I love to trace the history of a word from its first appearance in the scripture and see the various ways in which it is used in the bible. This is a form of 'topical' study, but a bit deeper than that. I have a great desire to understand the truths of scripture, and especially the 'big picture'. I do not speak Hebrew or Greek. My understanding of each of those languages is limited. But in our day and age I don't have to be a scholar to do scholarly studies. There are many powerful tools to aid the type of study I refer to. Some folks don't realize that not only are their concordances for English words, but there are 'englishman's' concordance tools that can look for specific Hebrew and Greek words. With these tools you can select an english word from the bible, find out the corresponding Hebrew or Greek word, and then search the Old Testament for the Hebrew and the New Testament for the Greek. You can find root words and similar words that are variations, etc. to help color in you understanding. Most of all, you can find every time that Hebrew or Greek word is used from the first time to the last time and see all the various ways in which it is translated. Sometimes one Hebrew or Greek word may have been translated with 5 or more different English words. It is hard to link the passages together when you have lots of English words used for a single Hebrew or Greek word. But thank God for Englishmans concordances :-) .Being pedantic seems like hair splitting sometimes, and Ron (Philologos) emphasizes being pedantic if you listen to his sermons. However, things are not just up for grabs and we cannot subjectively pour our meanings into words that are already defined in scripture. For example, being a Gen 'X'er we used to say things like, "That thing is BAD!" Did we mean it was evil? No, we meant it was awesome. We hijacked the normal meaning of the word 'bad' and poured our new concept into it. Now, imagine someone from the 1800's listening to us talk. They had been sorely misled by our speech. Why? We had not used the word 'bad' pedantically and it caused confusion and a breakdown in communication. Imagine how this happens when we take hold of Bible words and start pouring all sorts of non-biblical meanings into them. Not only do we begin a new doctrine that may well be unbiblical, but we overwrite (as it were) the true doctrine represented by the word. So, with dispensationalism, we have to deal with the precepts of the relatively new doctrine AND we have to try and recover the doctrine that was lost when the new one hijacked the word. I don't think 'dispensationalism' is going away anytime soon. It has a foothold in my circles. The problem will be recovering the true meaning of dispensationalism and using the term pedantically without causing further confusion in those used to thinking of times, seasons, workings, etc. . The best way to do this, I think, is simply by doing a word study of the use of the Greek words (as are shown in earlier posts). Lay them out and let the people decide. STUDY is the key. Again, modern day tools level the playing field and we don't have to just take folks word for it or be intimidated by formal degrees and such. If I can study good enough to have a decent understanding of what is going on in the Hebrew and Greek, then I am at liberty. We can PROVE all things in our day and age and hold fast to that which is good. God Bless,-Robert
Just a little comment about faith. I was researching for another thread and following the OT theme of 'laying on of hands'. I was interested in the fact that the word most often used in the OT for this is "sawmac" (Strongs Heb. 05564) which really means to 'lean hard'. There's a sermon for you! anyway... I was fascinated to discover the word used in this reference ...And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah. 2 Chr 32:8 The story is of the Assyrian attack on Jerusalem and the infamous Sennacherib. Hezekiah addressed the worried inhabitants of Jerusalem and 'they rested upon his words' If we put the more frequent translated word in its place we get "they leaned hard upon the words of Hezekiah". There can be few better examples of what genuine Bible faith really is. It is a response to a 'word'. It is not the result of reason or previous experience. It is not a logical conclusion drawn from evidence, it is the response to someone's word.faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Biblical faith is not like sitting on chair that you have computed will support your weight. It is a response to a person. It is not the next step of three steps to salvation. It is a personal encounter with a person. So many, I fear, in our day believe they are safe because they have done the calculations but faith is not calculation it is response to personal revelation.
I think we have got it! Or at least getting close, and who is the Word?In Christ: Phillip
who is the Word?NIce try... but this is not 'the word' but 'the 'words
Still persuing this 'leaning hard' Hebrew word, I came across another instance of its use which I think has profound implications.“Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.” (Is 26:3 KJVS) This is such a wonderful verse that it deserves a little unpacking...1. The phrase 'perfect peace' is actually, 'peace peace'. Shalom is not the absence of war but the presence of God's blessing and order. It is the 'peace' which comes not with war's absence but with God's presence. It signifies 'wholeness' and balance. When the people of Israel were given their instructions regarding the building of their altars they were required to built with unbroken or unworked stones, or as the scripture has is 'whole stones' “Thou shalt build the altar of the Lord thy God of whole stones: and thou shalt offer burnt offerings thereon unto the Lord thy God:” (Deut 27:6 KJVS)...'whole' here is 'shalom'. Unbroken, undamaged, undivided... everything in its place.In Isaiah 26 the Spirit promises 'perfect peace' an Hebrew idiom for the 'ultimate' peace. 2. but the promise is conditional. In fact, if we read the flow carefully we will see that while most of this passage is 'horizontal' this single verse is 'vertical'. At this point Isaiah is talking to God and expressing his confidence in God's provision and protection.The statement is that a certain kind of person will experience this 'peace peace'. The characteristic of that person is that it is a person whose 'mind is stayed on thee'. My margin has 'imagination' for 'mind'. Let's take the widest interpretation this is for someone whose 'thinking processes' are 'stayed on Thee'...and this is the point of this particular posting...'stayed on thee' is that same Hebrew word for 'leaning hard'. What a revelation this becomes..."Thou wilt keep in unbroken peace and harmony the one whose thinking leans hard on thee". This 'leaning hard' is a word which indicates that without the support upon which he leans he will fall over! This is not a cursory acknowledgment of God but a complete dependence upon Him.This is 'moment by moment' faith in action. The passage continues Is. 26:4 Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord JEHOVAH is everlasting strength: and here's another little gem from Hebrew, the word for 'strength' is means a 'rock'. Consequently Young in his literal translation has “Trust ye in Jehovah for ever, For in Jah Jehovah [is] a rock of ages,” (Is 26:4 YNG)The 'Rock of Ages'!!! now that's something upon which you can really 'lean hard'! :-D or as Frances Ridley Havergal wrote all those years ago...Like a river glorious, is God’s perfect peace,Over all victorious, in its bright increase;Perfect, yet it floweth, fuller every day,Perfect, yet it groweth, deeper all the way.RefrainStayed upon Jehovah, hearts are fully blestFinding, as He promised, perfect peace and rest.Hidden in the hollow of His blessed hand,Never foe can follow, never traitor stand;Not a surge of worry, not a shade of care,Not a blast of hurry touch the spirit there.RefrainEvery joy or trial falleth from above,Traced upon our dial by the Sun of Love;We may trust Him fully all for us to do.They who trust Him wholly find Him wholly true.RefrainHere's the Hymn and Tune!
Phew, wow, zip bang boom.I know that sounds foolish, but there it all is in one post, and it's all that God has been piecing together for me just in one post.This post should have been written in gold as the old time scribes would do.Thank you brother Ron.I don't know about anyone else, but this was as if the Lord was saying to me personally... LOOK, HERE I AM ~ DO IT.I say "lean" on Him so much ... but to see how you've brought that out and the double Shalom and I can't put into words how every letter and word just fell right into a divine prescription from my Great Physician through this.Here's your Honorary Doctorate Sir. :-)Some posts are acedemics ... This is a Divine Thus saith.Praise God and most grateful here.Annie :-D
The 'Rock of Ages'!!! now that's something upon which you can really 'lean hard'!It makes me think also of how our Lord is the Chief Cornerstone. this is the stone upon which all others are 'leaning'. I used to have a job filling orders for a large grocery chain in the Midwest part of the US. We would take a pallot and drive under it with what is known as a pallot jack. You drive them sort of like a car around the warehouse filling these large orders. You had to make sharp turns and sometimes stop real fast so the 'stack' had to be stable or it would all fall down. To do this we would quickly look through our order and find the largest and heaviest boxes on the order and we would place these heavy large boxes on the corners as 'cornerstones.' If you had these larger and heavier boxes in place- you could build the structure from there to 65+ cubic feet from a 48"X40" platform. Thats over 6' tall all standing under its own weight and enduring all manor of shifting, turning, and stopping. All of the boxes were 'leaning hard' upon each other and that ultimately transferred to the bottom at the corners where the 'conerstone' pieces were in place. :-)
""NIce try... but this is not 'the word' but 'the 'words""Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. If I have written something that has put you on the defensive please forgive me. It seems you have a tiff with me.John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God , and the Word was God .3056. logosSearch for G3056 in KJVSLlogoV logos log'-osfrom 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.In Christ: Phillip
Good post Ron. It is interesting to see 2 tim 1:7 and compare it in the NASB and KJV. It says in the KJV that God has not given a spirit of fear, but of peace, love, and a sound mind. In the NASB it translates sound mind as "discipline." And it does take discipline to keep one's peace, by simply taking God at His word, in the midst of troubling times.
I don't know if there is a link here, but Proverbs 3:5,6 also comes to mind:Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding (KJV). In all thy ways know thou Him, And He doth make straight thy paths. (YLT)
Robert, this brings new meaning to the slang ~ "Yada, Yada, Yada".Good verse and good translation of it.Thanks !!!
If I have written something that has put you on the defensive please forgive me. It seems you have a tiff with me.I have no tiff and I am not on the defensive. Nor was there any animosity in the spirit of my post. It's just that your posts so often head in this same direction.
If I have written something that has put you on the defensive please forgive me. It seems you have a tiff with me.Differemt word but a similar truth I think.
""It's just that your posts so often head in this same direction.""What direction are you speaking of? If I can change it to give us a better understanding of each other and make our time here better for all concerned and honor God and each other, I will.1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 2Cr 2:1 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness.These scriptures are the mind set I try to keep in the forefront of my posts. Share with me your concerns, I have and will in all truth and understanding with Love and oneness of heart in Christ Jesus. In Christ: Phillip
What direction are you speaking of? If I can change it to give us a better understanding of each other and make our time here better for all concerned and honor God and each other, I will.I decided that it would be better to take this out of the public forum and into PMs
I think that disp. or the lack there of has little to do with the condition of the Church. The problem is two fold.1. Good authoritive Bible teaching. Teaching what the Bible actually says, rather than going down some road that teaches everything but what the passage(s) say as a whole and in context, with it agreeing with the rest of the Word. The Bible is its own interpreter, not man. I believe that when it is taken in proper context, and I dont mean "the verse before and the one after" real context, historical, cultural, and with the rest of the Word. Most people seem to be afraid to teach with anything that would sugest that they are right, and that there is a "right". I am concerned that when you yank so hard on Disp, that you would also not take things in proper context. I would not say I am a strict "disp" however, I also know that even though all scripture is profitable... that not all scripture can be directly applicable and personaly applyable. I believe Grace was in operation in the old test as well as the new, but, there are things that are different now than then...(Duh) and to go off saying that this is the bain of modern christainity is both incorrect and pushes the issue way out of proportion to the detriment of the real issues. It has been my experience that when some one is adimant about something like disp. that they are really trying to cover an error in there doctrin that just takening the word of God in context would disprove. :-( 2. Personal sin, my own personal sin in my life hinders the Spritit in many ways, not the least of which is my ablity to properly use my sprititual gifts for the building up of the rest of the body.
One of my favorite methods of bible study is word studies. I love to trace the history of a word from its first appearance in the scripture and see the various ways in which it is used in the bible. This is a form of 'topical' study, but a bit deeper than that. I have a great desire to understand the truths of scripture, and especially the 'big picture'. Imagine how this happens when we take hold of Bible words and start pouring all sorts of non-biblical meanings into them. Not only do we begin a new doctrine that may well be unbiblical, but we overwrite (as it were) the true doctrine represented by the word. So, with dispensationalism, we have to deal with the precepts of the relatively new doctrine AND we have to try and recover the doctrine that was lost when the new one hijacked the word. Again, modern day tools level the playing field and we don't have to just take folks word for it or be intimidated by formal degrees and such. If I can study good enough to have a decent understanding of what is going on in the Hebrew and Greek, then I am at liberty. We can PROVE all things in our day and age and hold fast to that which is good. Outstanding Robert. And Amen.
Brother Ron wrote:This is an often quoted illustration but I think it has some serious problems. This kind of faith is really based on past experience and probability and is a rational process. I think this is confidence rather than faith.I do not agree with the extent to which you pull faith out of actually experiencing the faithfulness of God. In these two testimonies, I believe faith also finds it's source from what one has experienced in the past as well. This may be, the difference between the word "trust" and "faith." I have never thought about this, what do you think?Heb. 11:11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceives seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. Heb. 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense. In both of these depictions of faith I hear that these people could "lean hard" on God because they had already experienced the faithfulness of God. Just look at the progression of Abraham's life. Abraham grew faith to faith based on what God brought to him. What do you think?In ChristJeff
I do not agree with the extent to which you pull faith out of actually experiencing the faithfulness of God. I do no such thing, so I certainly won't try to defend your view of my view.
Br Ron,I'm sorry if I offended you. Maybe I wasn't clear as to what you were saying in this sentence. This kind of faith is really based on past experience and probability and is a rational process. I think this is confidence rather than faith.Are you saying that faith is not a result of what God has done in your life? You quoted from one text that Faith is the assurance of things hoped for,.... From what source is the "assurance" manifested in those who are said to have faith?In ChristJeff
third time around ...Again, modern day tools level the playing field and we don't have to just take folks word for it or be intimidated by formal degrees and such. If I can study good enough to have a decent understanding of what is going on in the Hebrew and Greek, then I am at liberty. We can PROVE all things in our day and age and hold fast to that which is good.That's good Robert. Very Good.As far as experiential knowledge derived from being thoroughly acquainted with Christ, some of our leaning can be there, as David recounts The Lord's pasts doings in His life in the Psalms ... but what came to mind, when I first read Ron's post about the chair ... is Richard Wurmbrand and others who have been tortured for Christ, to the point, with drugs etc., etc, so that they couldn't even think of a Scripture verse anymore or about their pasts or who they were or anything, except Wurmbrand for one, got down to only being able to say "Jesus".That's all he could say and it was something that hit me hard. That 'circumstances' could get 'that' bad and I know it's true ... that all one can do is call upon His Name because that is all that's left of one's mind.Anyhow, it just seemed better to find the faith that leans on and excedes knowledge or experience in the long run.Thanks y'all.
Sis wrote:Anyhow, it just seemed better to find the faith that leans on and excedes knowledge or experience in the long run.Why does Paul always pray this way for the believer?Col. 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; AlsoEph. 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Paul prays that all would experience what he has experienced. In ChristJeff
[quoteI'm sorry if I offended you. Maybe I wasn't clear as to what you were saying in this sentence. You didn't offend me. I just know that you and I see things so differently that our conversations here always seem to get tied up in knots.Are you saying that faith is not a result of what God has done in your life?No. I am saying that the kind of 'faith' that is the result of my past experiences of sitting on chairs and the probability that this chair will also support me is not what the Bible means by faith. Faith like so many scriptural virtues is both a crises and a disposition. But my present faith in God must be the consequence of God's current revelation to my heart, otherwise is is yesterday's faith and has no virtue. When I refer to 'faith' being dependent upon revelation I am distinguishing between revelation and information. Information produces the kind of confidence that makes me risk sitting upon a chair, and is no virtue. Revelation demands obedience/faith and consequently is a virtue.
That 'circumstances' could get 'that' bad and I know it's true ... that all one can do is call upon His Name because that is all that's left of one's mind.I had read Richard Wurmbrand's work and saw the video- but never comprehended this point until I encountered such a severe bout with pain a few months ago. I was in an severe agony near day and night for a week. At the end of that week my mind was 'cleansed' of all thoughts good and evil. All I could do in the midst of it is call on God. Nothing 'fancy' or eloquent, just simple words and very short sentences. I cannot imagine years and years of vthis torture- but now I understand how what Richard says can truly be a reality.
Br Ron wrote:You didn't offend me. I just know that you and I see things so differently that our conversations here always seem to get tied up in knots.Heb. 10:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, When I refer to 'faith' being dependent upon revelation I am distinguishing between revelation and information. Information produces the kind of confidence that makes me risk sitting upon a chair, and is no virtue. Revelation demands obedience/faith and consequently is a virtue.I agree with this with my whole heart. Many believe that because they can quote a Scripture, that they have the promise. Yet, as All Scripture teaches, Revelation demands obedience/faith and consequently is a virtue.Faith finds is source in the fountain that flows from God. What then is trust? Is it different from faith? How does trust seep into the soul of one who was once lost? In ChristJeff
The Difference Is In The DispensationsHow to make sense of the differences in the BibleChapter IISalvation In The Old TestamentFrom our brief overview of the major divisions of the Bible, it should be clear to the reader that God does not always work exactly the same way in every dispensation. What God required of Adam (don't eat of the tree), He did not require of Moses; what He required of Noah (ark), He did not require of David. Likewise what He required of Moses and David (keep the Law), He does not require of us today. God is the same God, but He simply does not work with man the same way in every dispensation. Therefore, every Christian MUST know where the divisions between the dispensations are and what God requires of man in each of them to make reasonable sense of the Bible. Again, this is imperative to see God's overall program for man as He has revealed it. In this chapter and the following, we are going to look at the covenants and dispensations from the standpoint of personal, individual salvation. This is a touchy topic, but our only concern is what the Bible says about the matter. Now, we realize every Bible preacher, teacher, minister, "scholar," etc. who attempts to teach something from the Bible says he is only interested in what the Bible says; therefore, the reader must determine the truth himself through prayer and study. Don't blindly follow the opinions of men no matter how "godly," "devoted," and "fundamental" they may appear; follow only the BOOK (AV 1611). When anyone (including your author) does not strictly go by the Bible, abandon him, at least in the area of error. The Bible is the Christian's absolute, final authority for ALL matters and is subject to no individual, group, church, or school. Before we go any farther, let us clear the air and list three "historic, fundamental positions" we take issue with concerning salvation: 1. That the means of receiving salvation is exactly the same in every dispensation. 2. That every person ever saved was "born again" and a "son of God." 3. That no saved person in any age can in any way lose his salvation. These three positions are considered "undeniable" among many today, but again, "what saith the Scriptures"? First of all, before you jump to conclusions, let us state as clearly as we can that we fully believe every person saved in this present Church Age is saved by grace through faith apart from any works. We insist he is born again, a son of God, and has eternal, everlasting life abiding in him which he cannot lose. We further believe in all the baptistic "fundamentals of the faith," and more than that we believe the book these fundamentals were extracted from—the Authorized King James Version of 1611. Our only real difference with some of the brethren is we don't believe all these Baptist fundamentals apply to everyone in every dispensation. We contend the new birth, eternal security, the Body of Christ, permanently indwelling Holy Spirit, and all other doctrines unique to the Church Age were not available until after the crucifixion, were not revealed until the New Testament was well under way, and were not clearly defined until the epistles of Paul. We further contend these Church Age doctrines have no application to any Old Testament saint, no matter how notable (Abraham, Moses, David, etc..), or to someone in the Tribulation. Nowhere in the Old Testament can one find the Holy Spirit regenerating anyone, sealing anyone unto the "day of redemption," placing someone "in Christ," or applying a half dozen other New Testament doctrines, but that doesn't stop people from teaching these doctrines are there. They do it by taking present Baptist (or any other) Church Age doctrines and forcing them to apply to all ages. This is nearly as bad as those who try to force doctrines unique to the Law (the Sabbath, abstaining from certain meats, etc.) on believers today. The only difference is the different Church doctrines cannot be practiced in the past because they were unknown then, but past doctrines can be practiced now. In future dispensations, though, those who try to force presently sound Baptist doctrine to apply there will be heretics just like the Sabbath-keepers and pork-abstainers are today. As someone has said, "Nearly every bad thing is a good thing twisted," thus even the precious new birth can be detrimental if it is taught as doctrine in the wrong age. When one reads modern, "fundamental" literature he needs to be careful. Much of what he reads will likely be sound doctrine, but some may also be based solely on assumption, emotion, opinion, or ignorance. For example, the author has read and heard several respected ministers make statements like: "People in the Old Testament were saved by looking forward to the cross while people in the New Testament are saved by looking back to the cross...," "All Old Testament saints were saved just like we are today...," "All believers from every age are born again, possessors of eternal life, and part of the Body of Christ...," etc., and make no effort to PROVE these statements from the Bible. They make them in such a matter of fact manner that the hearer usually does not even question them. He accepts them as "universal truths" from the lips of a great "scholar" or preacher. Though these remarks may sound biblical to modern ears, that does not MAKE them biblical. For instance, concerning Old Testament saints "looking forward to the cross," what cross? A "cross" is not mentioned in any context in the Bible until Matthew 10:38, and a cross is not directly connected with Jesus Christ's death until Matthew 20:19! Where does that leave Joseph, Aaron, Gideon and the rest of the Old Testament saints? How could they look forward to something that did not exist and God had not yet revealed? Christ's own disciples who followed him for months didn't even understand why Christ had to die, let alone "look ahead to a cross" (Matt. 16:22). You say, "Well, they were looking forward to redemption, then, if not a cross." Maybe so, but what did they know about redemption (Heb. 9:12)? Did they know as much about it as Paul in Romans, John in 1 John, or even YOU today? Did they know anything about someone dying on a cross for the sins of the world to purchase and provide an eternal redemption from sin? When Christ told Peter about His coming crucifixion it was such a shock to Peter that he rebuked Him! Peter didn't want to even consider his master dying on a cross, so to say he was looking forward to it absurd. We admit it is easy to apply our rich salvation doctrines and advanced revelations to those of other dispensations, so we must be extra careful when dividing the Scriptures to only apply to a dispensation the doctrines valid at that time. One of the strongest indications that salvation is not the same in every age is that Old Testament saints did not go at death to the same place New Testament saints go to when they die. Old Testament saints went to Abraham's Bosom or "paradise" while New Testament saints go directly into the presence of God in Heaven (2 Cor. 5:8). This alone proves there is a difference. Christ cleared up the matter in Luke 16 concerning where dead believers at that time went with the account of the "Rich man and Lazarus." Before Christ, the Bible was not clear where believers went at death. That there was a hell for the wicked was clear, but specific details concerning where believers went were not revealed. All that is said of Abraham, for instance, is that he was "gathered unto his people." In Luke 16 the Lord gives advanced revelation and says Abraham was actually in a desirable and comfortable place (called "paradise" in Luke 23:43) across a great gulf from Hell. Abraham and the other saints did not go into Heaven until they went up with the Lord at His ascension (Eph. 4:8), but saints who die in the Lord today go immediately into Heaven (2 Cor. 5:8). Obviously, our salvation is in significant ways different than Abraham's. In light of their many similarities, the two salvations are quite different. In the following we are going to look at salvation in the different dispensations and examine the similarities and differences between them. We will be very careful and try not to make the mistakes of many today who read doctrines from one period into another, forcing the Bible line up with their "private interpretation." Remember, the Bible is not a Baptist, Methodist, or Catholic book written only for different Churches (or others) in this present age, it is a Jewish book written to people of all ages declaring different manners and doctrines for each period. Posted by permission of Timothy S. MortonI think this is a very important work by Tim Morton and I could not get the internet address to post.In Christ: Phillip
From our brief overview of the major divisions of the Bible, it should be clear to the reader that God does not always work exactly the same way in every dispensation. What God required of Adam (don't eat of the tree), He did not require of Moses; what He required of Noah (ark), He did not require of David. Likewise what He required of Moses and David (keep the Law), He does not require of us today. God is the same God, but He simply does not work with man the same way in every dispensation. There is something more than what is stated here. Every thought posed here seems to prove that there is a difference. Yet what does God require of man throughout eternity? Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. This is His promise to all men.Deut. 30:11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, “Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. What does it mean, "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it?"Where God requires, God enables one's soul to keep His Covenant. Faith is what ties everything together.In ChristJeff
Quote:Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. Yes absolutely, and in this Church Age of Grace, we are to Love the Lord our God and believe on Him whom He has sent.Jhn 5:38 And ye have not His word abiding in you: for whom He hath sent, Him ye believe not. Jhn 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only? Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not His writings, how shall ye believe My Words? Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.We cannot love the Lord our God without loving the Son, Who is the Glory of the Father whom all will worship and every knee will bow.This mystery that was not revealed to any man or any other being created or not until it was revealed to Paul. Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Fulfill the Word of God, The Mystery, has been hid, but now, riches of Glory, this Mystery, Christ in you, Glory in Whom we preach, warning every one, teaching everyone, in all wisdom, man perfect in Christ Jesus. None of this was available to the old testament saints. How can we miss what is being said?To be In Christ is to be The Whole of God's eternal Plan of having He The Father's own birthed children in His House. Remember Jesus said, "Pray in this way," which had never been prayed before, "Our Father Who Art in Heaven."Even though God is the Father of all, nobody was ever told to call Him Father when they prayed except when The Son of God told us. Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.What is the fulfillment of this prayer?This is The prophesy of Jesus Christ Himself, which had never happened or had happened yet, but would happen at Pentecost, not just the Holy Spirit upon you or with you but in you.Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?Only Three Places in the New Testament, Abba Father. None in the Old. Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Some might Daddy. O Father.There is a Difference.In Christ: Phillip
This mystery that was not revealed to any man or any other being created or not until it was revealed to Paul.Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: The parallel passage is... ...the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit... Eph 3:4,5 which makes it very plain that Paul was not the only recipient of this revelation.
Paul was not the only recipient of this revelation. I think of Jeremiah, and Isaiah - their proclamation of the New Covenant promises. I think of David who experienced prophetic identity with the suffering Savior. He did not require of Moses; what He required of Noah (ark), He did not require of David. Likewise what He required of Moses and David (keep the Law), I find this argument troublesome. David himself understood that observing the law in itself wouldn’t please God. God really wanted a contrite and broken heart. Noah was called to do the same thing as we are - to leave the "world" and get aboard God's rescue boat (Christ). (be not equally yoked)Spiritually, they are really the same thing, though may be visible in different ways.Israel did not "enter his rest" because of UNBELIEF, not because of dispensation. God's Spirit was there in the desert. The ROCK of Christ was there, offering them salvation. (Hebrews ) But they rejected it. And that very same thing is happening all the time today - all over the world. While I question of a lot of this, I do believe that there was a distinct era initiated through Christ and it is this: "he made the two one." God broke down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile by abolishing the law and replacing it with the Spirit (as a law). And in Christ he also broke down other walls - slave, free, Barbarian/Greek, male/female. Even saying that, it seems that there was a lot of this happening in the OT ex Rahab, etc.I see other changes - Jerusalem was not the center any more - but the NEW Jerusalem - a new heaven and earth, a new 'land", ie dwelling place of which we are "citizens" (Eph. 2:19). Yet, it seems like dispensationalists say little about these differences, and many seem to stear us right back into the Old Covenant "dispensation" - focus on form and place rather than Spirit and Truth. Now, I realize that I am generalizing here - just pointing out what I seem to have observed a lot. So, are we going to see a word study on the word: dispensation/stewardship? Is anyone working on it?Diane
Wow...this has really run away...Christinyou wrote:Each covenant God makes with man (with few exceptions) marks the begining of a new dispensation.Human nature has in it the tendancy the almost addictive longing for completion. A work can't be left undone, a story untold, a question unanswered. I find myself constantly trying to teach my son, "If you don't know something don't make at the answer, keep searching until you find it. It's okay to not know something."Evolutionary theory of the origin of life stays alive today because it is continually patched up with exceptions to the rules that have been proven to be inconsistant. God is utterly consistent. It is written that there is no "shadow of turning" in Him and that He is "not a man that He would lie, nor the son of man that He must repent." Is God allowed to change His mind? Yes. But does He? No, even o the point of expressing His desire to several times in scripture and not doing it once (if anyone can show one time when He did, then I'll happily retract this statement).God's covenant with man kind has always being he same: Go your own way in your own strength (ie, sin) and surely insure the death sentance (Gen 2:17).The only way to atone for this is by placing our faith in a perscribed substitutionary sacrifice (Gen 3:21;4:4)Calling upon Him for direction and ability to obey (Gen 4:26). Note that God did of explain Himself in any of these verses above, which are the first indications of their occurance not only in scripture but in history. How dare I imply this when Scripture doesn't directly say it? Because it is clarified through the Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, etc Covenants. It's not a matter of one covenant cancelling the last one out, but that one further clarifies the last.Consider the most popular "dispensational division", the Mosaic to the Messianic. One of the best verses in the NT that describes the New Covenant (ie, Messianic) is Rom 10:9 "If you confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Here Paul is expounding a passage from Deut 30 proving his assertions by citing Isaiah the prophet. In other words, the New (Messianic) Covenant was alway contained in the Old (Mosaic) Covenant, only it was hidden.Note also the way I have defined sin. When we choose a direction that God hasn't pointed, and a power source other than God, we have to ask ourselves who our director and empowerer is. God, who allows His bride to go "a whoring" is duty bound to His nature to render justice. It is not merely a sacrifice that suffices to cancel out the penalty, no matter how legitamate an offering. The sacrifice must be substitutionary. A recognition of the sinner's sinfulness and the sacrifice's innocence must be recognised by the sinner. This is why only those who repent are saved, in spite of Jesus' sacrifice being once for all.All of this of course is useless if it doesn't lead to the sinner being reunited with his Counsellor and Helper. Here is where we see one of the major differences between God's kingdom and satan's. Satan directs by exciting our lusts (selfish desires) and then empowers us to go in the "way that is right unto man". God on the other hand counsels us in love and then helps us to follow His advice, if we so choose. Essentially God's kingdom is passive in nature, mercifully allowing anyone to break their covenant with Him, in order to form one with satan. Satan however will not tolerate dissention, demanding appeasment by death. There is consistency in this that flows through every verse of scripture whether in our time of the permanent perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God, or in the days of the temporary repetative sacrifice of the flock and the herd, that preceded and pointed to the perfect. All this to say that if your theory about God leaves you with inconsistent rules and exceptions, keep searching the scriptures until clarity comes. Until then accept it as an area that is out of the reach of your understanding, because it is better to be dumb in an area than to drift off into error.
Tim Morton wrote:For instance, concerning Old Testament saints "looking forward to the cross," what cross? The OT saints in the wilderness, followed the piller of smoke in the formation of the cross. If one were to study the directions given to Israel, in the ways that they were to break camp and then follow God one would see the cross formed by the tribes. But more important than the outward sign is the inward condition of those who are called saints in the OT. The effects of the cross, caused them to die to the things of this world. Salvation brings death upon those who walk with God.Psalm 116:13 \tI will take up the cup of salvation,\tAnd call upon the name of the LORD. 14 \tI will pay my vows to the LORD\tNow in the presence of all His people. 15 \tPrecious in the sight of the LORD\tIs the death of His saints. The teachings of Jesus in Matthew 5:3 \t“Blessed are the poor in spirit,\t\tFor theirs is the kingdom of heaven.4 \tBlessed are those who mourn,\t\tFor they shall be comforted.5 \tBlessed are the meek,\t\tFor they shall inherit the earth.6 \tBlessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,\t\tFor they shall be filled.7 \tBlessed are the merciful,\t\tFor they shall obtain mercy.8 \tBlessed are the pure in heart,\t\tFor they shall see God.9 \tBlessed are the peacemakers,\t\tFor they shall be called sons of God.10 \tBlessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,\t\tFor theirs is the kingdom of heaven.11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.These teachings represent the work of the cross in the individual that lives by faith. This work is clearly portrayed thoughtout the OT. Only through the work of the cross can man love God as He has required of all men. In ChristJeff
Brother Aaron wrote:All this to say that if your theory about God leaves you with inconsistent rules and exceptions, keep searching the scriptures until clarity comes. Until then accept it as an area that is out of the reach of your understanding, because it is better to be dumb in an area than to drift off into error.I have also experienced this because He has taught this precept to me. Sometimes I still get ahead of Him. Pride always goes before the stumble. Humility finds it's root in waiting for Him to bring clarity to the struggle. The OT always talks about "understanding." Paul always prays for the believer to grow in "understanding." It is God who gives the "increase." Amen Keep on stiring up the house so that the love of God may abound.In ChristJeff
What exactly is the mystery that was hidden to prior generations but now has been made manifest? This topic always get's so confusing, but the Scriptures state plainly what the exact nature of that mystery is:Eph 3:6 says "to be specific," in regard to the mystery that, "the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."The mystery teaches us that the Gentiles are fellow heirs (joint heirs) of the promise made to Abraham by their partaking of Christ, who is that seed of promise by through whom the entire world would be blessed.
I am sorry If I inferred that Paul was the only one. I said, "This mystery that was not revealed to any man or any other being created or not until it was revealed to Paul."I thought the word "until" made the separation, making the experience of Paul on the road when Christ came to him and knocked him down, spoke to him out of heaven and blinded him at the beginning of the revelation of Christ in a person which was revealed to Paul FIRST or as in Eph 3: 4,5 NOW REVEALED. God making Paul the first minister of this revelation, Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: They did the same thing to Paul when he spoke the revelation of this mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, they contradicted him and blasphemed him and kicked him out. Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.Are we Gentiles or Jews, in Christ there is none but Christs'. Act 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.This made Paul a minister of Christ and he never wavered when it came to the revelation of Christ in him.Acts 9:3-8 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.With good reason, Paul, Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.Then waiting for three days, blind, no food etc.Acts 9:8-9 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.By that time Ananias had been approached by Jesus and told that Paul had been given a vision of receiving his sight from Ananias, but he did not want to go.Acts 9:13-14 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.Then Jesus Himself said, Acts 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. Sound familiar? Paul immediately began to preach Christ and after he was in the desert for three years and learning the mystery of this Christ in he before he began to teach this amazing Gospel that he even call his Gospel, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.Acts 9:29-31 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.This is why Paul should be so important to us. He was trained in the school with Christ Himself being the revelator to Paul of this new Gospel that no one else has received as yet, They would and so are we and we should hear Him and Paul of this new revelation of Christ in men.In Christ: Phillip
...None of this was available to the old testament saints...This common doctrine is entirely false. Paul speaking of the wilderness experience of Israel boldly declares about them:1 Cor 10:4 "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ"You see, the "Old Testament Saints" partook of the spiritual benefits of Christ that are available to us, even though the death of Christ was still some 1400 years away. We, like Abraham, are blessed in every possible way (Gen 24:1).
The OT saints in the wilderness, followed the piller of smoke in the formation of the cross. If one were to study the directions given to Israel, in the ways that they were to break camp and then follow God one would see the cross formed by the tribes. As far as I can see they camped on the four compass points of the Tabernacle. This might be a cross or a square. As regards 'the pillar of cloud in the formation of the cross'; where did that idea come from? :-(
This is why Paul should be so important to us. He was trained in the school with Christ Himself being the revelator to Paul of this new Gospel that no one else has received as yet, They would and so are we and we should hear Him and Paul of this new revelation of Christ in men.I have great respect for the unique ministry of Paul but to make him greater in any way to the other disciples is to create a canon of scripture within the canon. This is the kind of area where dispensationalism goes beyond what is written. It is often linked to the idea that Peter and the Jerusalem apostles were disobedient or sluggish in their faith and that God somehow had to start again with Paul. This is Bullengerism but it has many different shades to it.I really think it is unwise to single out Paul in this way. His writings are not intended to set him above the other 'apostles and prophets' in any way.
I am finding myself between Scylla and Charybdis on this thread. It is difficult to avoid one position without being swept into the other. I am suspicious of classical Scofield dispensationalism but I see the New Covenant as something quite different to anything that was available to the OT saints. As I see it right relationship with God, which the New Testament labels as 'justification by faith', was always the only basis on which men could be accepted with God. This order of things has remained unaltered throughout the different stages of God's revelation and dealings with men. This was the way for Abel and Noah and Abraham and for those who lived 'under the era of the Sinaitic Law'. The law, according to Galatians was 'added'. It was certainly not added as a means to acceptance with God but rather to hold in the people of God and to be their schoolmaster.For such their continued unique place in the outworking of God's purposes required that they were 'circumcised' and that they walked in the steps of the faith which Abraham had prior to his circumcision. Salvation was always by faith that it might be by grace.The Sinai Law and Covenant came in a package deal with a non-detachable priesthood. This Covenant received its death sentence as God began to speak of a New Covenant, especially in the prophecies which are gathered around God first 'rejection' of his people' ie the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel are the places where find the concept of a New Covenant coming clearly into focus. It is plainly in the future when viewed in these prophecies and it is made very clear, particularly in Jeremiah, that the New Covenant can never co-exist with the Old. This theme is brought to climax in Hebrews.Were the specific promises of the New Covenant then available for the saints who lived by faith but whose time was spent in the Old Covenant? We have discussed this frequently in different threads here and I suspect that none of us have changed our minds on the issue. Personally, I distinguish (but do not necessarily separate) justification and regeneration. I am sure that we cannot have regeneration without justification, but how about justification without regeneration. I think I see that plainly in the scriptures and I suspect that it may be an explanation to much that distresses us all in contemporary Christianity.
by KingJimmy on 2006/3/3 11:51:20"""What exactly is the mystery that was hidden to prior generations but now has been made manifest? This topic always get's so confusing, but the Scriptures state plainly what the exact nature of that mystery is:Eph 3:6 says "to be specific," in regard to the mystery that, "the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."The mystery teaches us that the Gentiles are fellow heirs (joint heirs) of the promise made to Abraham by their partaking of Christ, who is that seed of promise by through whom the entire world would be blessed."""Sorry this is so long, but study the truth of it and don't just pick out a particular sentence and try to prove it worng.Ephesians 3:2-6 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:This mystery of Christ in you was not a promise to Abraham. His promise was he offspring would be as numerous as the sands of the sea. Not the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ born again in the believer.Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:There is a difference in imputed and made righteous.Imputed: 3049. logizomaiSearch for G3049 in KJVSLlogizomai logizomai log-id'-zom-aheemiddle voice from 3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):--conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:Made: 1096. ginomaiSearch for G1096 in KJVSLginomai ginomai ghin'-om-aheea prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.There is a difference in being in Christ and made righteousness by Christ Himself that is born again in us, and righteousness being imputed because Abraham believed God. The consequences of believing are different, one unto imputed righteousness and the other perfect righteousness Himself Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Abraham did not have the resurrected and ascended Christ come back to this earth in believers, in Abraham himself as we do.1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Is Come, in the present in the believer. Not has come as in the Flesh of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.Is come: 2064. erchomaiSearch for G2064 in KJVSLercomai erchomai er'-khom-aheemiddle voice of a primary verb(used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice)eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho,which do not otherwise occur)to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.Not past tense, and none whatsoever of has come. Which literally; is come in flesh.I testify He is come in my flesh and is the Now owner of my spirit. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Question: Is He Come. If saved the answer must be YES. I believe people can be saved and not know this truth which keeps them from the promises of Paul of the Christ in them. Paul was the greatest knower of how the mind works that is in scripture. All of Paul's epistles are so we can know this truth. 1 Corinthians 2:11-16 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.In Christ: Phillip
Br Ron wrote: As regards 'the pillar of cloud in the formation of the cross'; where did that idea come from? Sorry, bad english. The tribes traveled in the formation of a cross as they followed the piller of smoke. If you look to the number of each tribe and how they were positioned in relation to one another. The length of each grouping of tribes is not equal in each direction of the compass. I believe it is found in Numbers chapter 2. Draw it out on paper see what you find.In ChristJeff
""I really think it is unwise to single out Paul in this way. His writings are not intended to set him above the other 'apostles and prophets' in any way.""Galatians 1:15-17 But when God, who set me apart even from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations, immediately I took not counsel with flesh and blood, nor went I up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and again returned to Damascus.Acts 9:15-16 And the Lord said to him, Go, for this man is an elect vessel to me, to bear my name before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel: for *I* will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name.Maybe I am not seeing what everybody is so afraid of when it comes to dispensationalism, but I believe Paul is a dispensation chosen by God to bring Jesus Christ as the Son of God Born Again in those that Paul would speak to, as in all he does in all his epistles. Christ in you the Hope of Glory is not just a single scripture that takes out of context all else that Paul speaks of that was revealed to him by Jesus Christ Himself. I see Paul as the chosen vessel of God and Jesus Christ to bear His Name to all that he would be sent to and speak of Christ in you a minimum of 146 times directly and passively many more. It has always been that if an author mentions a certain topic more than once it is considered a central theme in his writings. All I can see as the central theme and total intense topic in all Paul's writings is what Christ revealed to him and that was the revelation of Christ in him. This is what got my attention and I have been intensely interested in what he says for the last 5 years. Not to the exclusion of the rest of God's Word, but to the addition of everything Paul wrote which God gave him to say to complete and fulfill God's Word. Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;In Christ: Phillip
Satan directs by exciting our lusts (selfish desires) and then empowers us to go in the "way that is right unto man". God on the other hand counsels us in love and then helps us to follow His advice, if we so choose. Essentially God's kingdom is passive in nature, mercifully allowing anyone to break their covenant with Him, in order to form one with satan. Satan however will not tolerate dissention, demanding appeasment by death. I see an essential truth here that distinguishes between enslavement (Satan) and freedom(God). I would prefer the word, ‘enslavement” instead of “empowerment” to describe the activities of Satan. Also I would rather not refer to God’s kingdom as “passive’ though I know what you mean. What about using words like :free, freedom. After all, God does not coerce anyone into his kingdom. He calls us and gives us the freedom to choose. And yet his kingdom comes by force, and even the gates of hell can’t prevail against it. This, perhaps reflects the power of choice –God frees us and empowers us to live for him. Empowerment works from within, enslavement from without. Satan seeks to rob us of our freedom to choose so that he can control us. (our will) One more thought: I view passivity as a negative characteristic. Passivity of mind is an open door for Satan. I am sure that we cannot have regeneration without justification, but how about justification without regeneration. Philologos, do you mind explaining this further? Diane
f you look to the number of each tribe and how they were positioned in relation to one another. The length of each grouping of tribes is not equal in each direction of the compass. My recollection is that one of the words for their journeyings implies that they travelled five-a-breast so the differing numbers of the tribes would mean that some sections were longer not broader. I have not done the site plan but that plan would not give the shape of the journeying tribes.
Diane's Ron B's
I am happy to do this but I fear it will hyjack the thread! John Wesley once commented that 'in order of thought' justification must precede 'regeneration'. ( I am not using Wesley as one of my witnesses here; he would not have agreed with my position.) I am just using Wesley as a pointer that as we think through the legal logic of what God has provided in the atonement the 'logical' steps would lead to a consideration of 'justification' before 'regeneration'. (The Calvinists would not receive this as they regard 'regeneration' as the initiating and sovereign act of God which precedes faith, repentance, justification etc.)In a 'logical' sense 'regeneration' would make 'justification' unnecessary. If 'all things have become new and old things passed away' there would be no charge to bring against the 'new man'. But the only reason that God is justified in regenerating the sinner (and remember the scripture expressly states that God justifies the ungodly) is that we are justfied by faith. This justification by faith opens up wonderful prospects but are the prospects that were opened up to Abraham the same as those which were opened up to the Post-Pentecost world?I am still concerned about hyjacking the thread, so I will say no more until I find out the direction that other SIers want to take things.I am sure that we cannot have regeneration without justification, but how about justification without regeneration.Philologos, do you mind explaining this further?
Br Ron wrote:My recollection is that one of the words for their journeyings implies that they travelled five-a-breast so the differing numbers of the tribes would mean that some sections were longer not broader. Sorry once again, I read through Number chapter 2. to refresh my memory. The formation of the tribes as they camped formed a cross, that is if one takes the Scriptures literally. That one tribe is directly east of another and not southeast or northeast, etc. In the middle of the cross was the Levites with the Tabernacle. The number of the people for each tribe would then lengthen each direction by the space required to accomodate all the people. Somewhere I read this a long time ago, I then drew it out for myself and found the cross we know of today. In ChristJeff
are the prospects that were opened up to Abraham the same as those which were opened up to the Post-Pentecost world?mmmm... good question, which to me fits right in here with the topic. I'm wondering if this is creating a division that doesn't exist (??)The word is like a sword.. where it will cut through on this issue. What was Ab missing that I now have?? not ability to see and understand in the Spirit, hear from God, be accepted through faith... look forward to eternity... Did Christ's death not ultimately atone for his sins, just like mine? In the spirit realm there is no such thing as temporal time. regerneration: new life in Christ, Did Ab not have the essence of this?? How can we tell? If not, what difference would that have made?Was his willingness to sacrifice his son not evidence of accepting death of self, the "old" self and a trust in something supernatural via the Spirit. Did he lay all on the alter, and not receive something new? In a 'logical' sense Logical?? I feel like this is getting beyond my realm. Is this an issue of what came first the chicken or the egg? Regarding this process, didn't Jesus say, The Spirit blows like the wind and we can't see it, and we don't know where.... when, how.... Diane
Br Ron wrote:I am still concerned about hyjacking the thread, so I will say no more until I find out the direction that other SIers want to take things.I believe it is of extreme importance to root out all of these basic elements first in order to understand how God works His salvation into all who live by faith. First, Scripture teaches that from Able on through till the end of times spoken of in Revelations, faith in God is the precept which brings salvation to those who live by it. Secondly, faith is a result of revelation. The source of faith is centered in God and not man. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. This has been given to us in Scriptures from the very beginning of mankind. Thirdly, what is the result of God dispensing grace on those who live by faith? What will one's life look like when we "walk" with God? What is God's purpose in having us live by faith or walking with Him? Will the grace that God gave to Enoch produce in Enoch a change that is different than the grace that God gave to Paul? Finally, what does God require of men? Has His requirement changed over the generations? How has it changed? What are the underlying results of what God requires of man? It can all be summed up in the fact that God requires man to love Him, and then that we love one another. Certain aspects of Dispensational Theology loose clarity in reguards to the fact that God has always required man to love Him. Why? Adam and Eve were the first to question God's requirement of them. Do the doctrines that we adhere to today glorify man or God? Do our doctrines cause us to be Holy as He is Holy. Or do they allow us to live in darkness?In ChristJeff
Sorry this is so long, but study the truth of it and don't just pick out a particular sentence and try to prove it worng.Actually, Paul specifically declares what the mystery is in Eph 3:6. The mystery is not "Christ in you." Christ in you is simply the "riches" of that mystery, as Col 1:27 says. The "riches" are therefore the effect of what Eph 3:6 says, that the Gentiles are joint heirs in Christ. Notice though Paul does not say the Gentiles are 'now' joint heirs. Rather he says they are joint heirs. That is, they have always been. It has been the state of being for all gentiles who have exercised a saving faith in God. This has always been their privalege by faith. It is only now in this age, according to Paul, that this knowledge has come to be known. The reality behind this knowledge though, has always been though. There is a difference in imputed and made righteous.Though common theology, it is also commonly wrong. To be declared righteous by God (imputed righteousness) is also to be made righteous. Though it is God who justifies the ungodly, when God actually does justify the ungodly on the basis of grace through faith, they no longer remain ungodly. That is, when God says you are now something, you actually are what God says you are. It's not merely some abstract legal declaration. To say otherwise is to say God is crossing His fingers behind his back when He actually declares you righteous. God is not fudging! When God declares you righteous, this is when regeneration occurs, and you are actually made righteous. For as the prophet Isaiah said, God's word will not return to Him void. It will accomplish whatever He says. Just as when God said "let there be light," and there was, so when God declares the sinner righteous, he is made righteous. Otherwise, God is declaring somebody righteous yet they are entirely unrighteous, and without change.But this is where regeneration occurs. For you were unrighteous, until God declared you righteous. And when God declared you righteous, this made you actually such. Thus, when He declared you righteous, a change occured in your life. This is regeneration.And it is with this we can know that Abraham and all the Old Testament saints (contrary to common teaching) were actually regenerate. For God declared Abraham righteous. And when God declared Abraham righteous, His word did not fail, but he was actual made righteous, just as God said. All this was the result of faith.And this righteousness is none other than the righteousness of Jesus Christ, which is of God. For there is no other sort of righteousness in relation to God. For to be "righteous" is to be in "right relationship." And there is not more than one type or degrees of "right relationship" with God. You are either right with God, or you are not. The righteousness Abraham had is the same we receive, and all on the basis of faith: this is the entire argument of Romans in which Paul uses David and Abraham as examples of how righteousness is acheived, contrary to how the Jews have tried to obtain righteousness, as if by the Mosaic Law. On the contrary, he says righteousness is the result of faith, not works. Thus, using Abraham to show how righteousness was acheived prior to the giving of the Law, and likewise, how righteousness was acheived with David, even after the Law was added- in each instance, no matter the dispensation!, by grace through faith. Now, if David and Abraham had some other sort of righteousness as the result of their faith, then Paul's using them as examples is entirely absurd. For if it is some sort of different righteousness that is obtained, and if the righteousness that is available in Christ is something entirely new and unheard of, then Paul is in error for using the OT as the basis of his argument. But, because Paul is talking of the very same righteousness, he uses the OT to prove his doctrine of the righteousness that comes by faith.
Br Jimmy wrote:Notice though Paul does not say the Gentiles are 'now' joint heirs. Rather he says they are joint heirs. That is, they have always been. It has been the state of being for all gentiles who have exercised a saving faith in God. This has always been their privalege by faith.I believe the Book of Job was given to us to reveal this truth that you speak. It confounds the teachings of certain dispensationalist. Though common theology, it is also commonly wrong. To be declared righteous by God (imputed righteousness) is also to be made righteous. Though it is God who justifies the ungodly, when God actually does justify the ungodly on the basis of grace through faith, they no longer remain ungodly. That is, when God says you are now something, you actually are what God says you are. It's not merely some abstract legal declaration. Psa. 1:1 \tBlessed is the man\tWho walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,\t\tNor stands in the path of sinners,\t\tNor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 \tBut his delight is in the law of the LORD,\t\tAnd in His law he meditates day and night. 3 \tHe shall be like a tree\t\tPlanted by the rivers of water,\t\tThat brings forth its fruit in its season,\t\tWhose leaf also shall not wither;\tAnd whatever he does shall prosper. 4 \tThe ungodly are not so,\tBut are like the chaff which the wind drives away. 5 \tTherefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,\tNor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 \tFor the LORD knows the way of the righteous,\tBut the way of the ungodly shall perish. This also make the distinction that you make here. Look to the three groups of people spoken of in this Psalm. The ungodly, the sinner, and the righteous are judged by the path they take. And it is with this we can know that Abraham and all the Old Testament saints (contrary to common teaching) were actually regenerate. For God declared Abraham righteous. And when God declared Abraham righteous, His word did not fail, but he was actual made righteous, just as God said. All this was the result of faith.Faith that finds its source in Him, has only one outcome. Col. 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. There has only ever been one way. Amen.In Christ Jeff
roadsign wrote:I would prefer the word, ‘enslavement” instead of “empowerment” to describe the activities of Satan.My reasoning behind saying "empowerment" instead of "enslavement" is to set build on Paul's thoughts in Rom 6-8 about behind us all being slaves, but the question being whether we have a good master or an evil one (ie, one that cares for us, or one that abuses us).One more thought: I view passivity as a negative characteristic. Passivity of mind is an open door for Satan. Note that I didn't say that we are to be passive, but that God's kingdom is passive. Jesus always had a "take it or leave it" kind of attitude. He simply presents the truth, and it's your choice to accept or reject, knowing that their are consequences and implications to your choice. Satan by contrast demands attention.
Tony,Sorry this has taken so long...TonyS wrote:In I Thess 4:18 we are told to “comfort one another with these words.” of course which refers to the passages speaking of the Lord descending from Heaven with a shout, and the believer being caught up to meet the Lord. In my mind it is hard to find comfort, or to comfort others with a message that says believers will suffer a terrible, horrible wrath first?This statement that you have made made here perfectly illustrates what I have said about "most pre-tribbers". You have applied your own logic to the scriptures without considering a possible alternative. When I speak of "most pre-tribbers" I speak as one who in my first ten years of walking with Christ had only encountered one person who didn't blindly accept the pre-trib rapture theory. Everyone confessed that there was more than one eschatological viewpoint, but no one had considered, let alone explored, what they were, while at the same time preaching pre-trib as dogma.In answer to your question about "comfort" allow me the following illustration. A man has cancer, and the doctor prescribes chemotherapy. The doctor points out the potential side affects, in order to prepare the man for what he will endure, and assures him that probability of success in treatment is extremely high. He was looking at having less than a year to live, but can now expect to live a long and full life.During the treatment as he is vomiting and losing his hair, his friends comfort him by reassuring him that the end result will be better than his life before. How much more will saints be comforted to know that this time of great onslaught will not only not go on forever, but will end in the appearing of their beloved Christ (as this would be the alternate meaning).Also, to consider the word "comfort" in itself, it contains as its base the word "fort", as in fortify. Comfort carries with it a soft, cozy vibe in this day and age, with minds going to cushions and comfortable sofas and beds. In the days of old the word held more of a meaning of "emboldening" as in "putting on strength where there was weakness" or "courage in the place of fear". You cannot make someone courageous by taking away their fear, but by emboldening them to stand and continue in spite of their fear. Considering this, it actually makes more sense to have a scenario where tribulation occurs before the rapture (whether it comes post or mid).I say all this merely to present a logical alternate scenario to the eschatology that you've presented logically. At the end of the day, logic should not be the foundation of our theology but more the natural outcome of truth understood.
Just a thought on "comfort" in the tribulation:John 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
Can man get to God and His Heaven by keeping His requirements?Can man get to Jesus by repentance or baptism?Was Abraham when absent from the body present with Jesus Christ. When did Christ die on the Cross? Was the purpose of Jesus Christ to save Abraham or to rule over all Israel in the millineal Kingdom from the throne of David, the promise.Did Israel accept Jesus Christ as Messiah. Who is The Body of Christ, His Church. Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.1Cr 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?Was Abraham baptized into the Body of Christ.Who are the Body of Christ?In Christ: Phillip
By Timothy S. MortonInnocent AdamBefore the fall Adam was not in a "lost" condition, thus he didn't need to be saved from non-existent sins. But, as we mentioned before, Adam was not righteous either. Adam and Eve are the only people ever who have been in such a purely innocent state. When they were created, they didn't have any acquired knowledge of anything. Even with all their potential "brain power," they were essentially in a state of ignorance. Though Adam was created a full grown man (likely appearing around 30 years old), he knew nothing about being a full grown man. All he knew was what God had built into him as instinct. As soon as he became conscious, however, Adam began to learn things through three methods: he learned from observation, he learned by attempting to do things (experience), and he learned what God revealed to him with WORDS. Adam knew nothing about holiness, righteousness, purity, etc., nor about rebellion, wickedness, sin, and salvation. He was truly innocent—but also ignorant of the most essential things. All he knew about his Creator was what He revealed to him, and essentially all God revealed to him about Himself and His nature can be found in Genesis chapters 1-2 under the Edenic Covenant (see chapter 1). Notice when instructing Adam God does not go into long speeches about the benefits of doing right and the consequences of doing wrong. He knew Adam had no experimental concept of these matters. What is "right" to someone who has never seen or experienced "wrong"? On the other hand, what is "wrong" to someone who has never consciously chosen to do "right"? God was testing Adam in Eden and gave him a free will to make a choice, but the choice, as far as Adam is concerned, is not between "right and wrong," but between God and something else! Before He would let Adam stumble upon it by accident, God, in love, warned him of the deadly result of eating of the Tree of Knowledge. Since Adam had no concept of "wrong," God did not tell him it was wrong to eat of it. He told him only that it would kill him and it was His will for him NOT to eat of it. True, Adam didn't know what death was either, but he didn't have to, to make the right choice. Wasn't God's WORDS telling him He didn't want him to eat of it enough? Adam didn't have to know all the details. God's warning showed Adam He loved him, cared for him, and didn't want him to die. Furthermore, God also put the "Tree of Life" in the garden to give Adam a positive alternative, but neither was it "right" to eat of this tree. Again, the test was not between right and wrong or good and evil, but would man love God in return for His love and obey Him, or love something else more. The Serpent also knew of Adam and Eve's moral ignorance, and he used it to further his evil purpose. As mentioned before Satan used the desire for "knowledge" to deceive Eve into eating of the forbidden tree, but Adam, who was NOT deceived and who heard the warning directly from God's mouth, decided he loved Eve more than he loved God and ate also. Though he knew his action was against God's will, Adam was willing to suffer death with Eve ("whatever that is," there was no death before the fall) rather than live with God. As a result of eating Adam, became a "sinner." He received the lusted for knowledge of good and evil, but he also became lost, spiritually dead, headed for physical death, alienated from God, and afraid in the process. He gained much knowledge in a few short moments, but definitely the wrong kind. When Adam ate he did not fall from what we consider today as salvation, but he did fall from innocence to sin, from a relatively safe position into iniquity. When he was in innocence (remember, not righteousness) he was much better off than in guilt, and in this sense he fell from safety—salvation. On the other hand, if Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life instead he may have acquired righteousness. Though the Bible does not plainly say that he would, it is somewhat implied since he obtained an evil nature from the Tree of Knowledge. If this is true and he did eat of the Tree of Life instead of the Tree of Knowledge, he would have still obtained the knowledge they desired. Not by doing a sinful act, but by doing a righteous act. They would have knowledge similar to the way God has knowledge of good and evil. Not by committing an act of sin and realizing righteousness as the opposite, but by doing an act of righteousness and knowing sin as the opposite. God does not have to be a sinner to know what sin is. Since He is righteous by nature, He knows sin is everything that is contrary to Him. Everything and anything contrary to God is sin. He is the absolute standard, and His infallible word is His vehicle to convey this standard to man. Adam likely would have known this too if he had loved God enough to eat of the right tree. Having only a righteous nature he would have been saved from the possibility of sinning (eternal security) because a righteous man cannot sin! Nevertheless, what we want the reader to realize is Adam's "salvation" before the fall was based entirely upon works. If Adam neglected the work of eating from the freely offered Tree of Life (as he did), he would never have had all God wanted for him (eternal life, righteousness, etc.). If he refused to eat of the forbidden Tree of Knowledge (another work), he would not have become a sinner. Clearly, Adam could be "saved" or lost only by works! To not work either way was to remain in the limbo of mere innocence. Faith or the lack thereof had nothing to do with the matter. In fact, Adam did not doubt what God had said about the tree in the least; he knew he would die if he ate of it! He believed God was telling him the truth. Thus Adam didn't have a lack of faith, he just had the wrong works. At this point you may be thinking, "What about Romans 4, Galatians 2, Ephesians 2, and all the other passages which say works have nothing to do with salvation?" This is a good question, but be careful Christian; as we have stated before, don't assume everything found in the Bible applies doctrinally to everybody in every age. Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and much of the rest of Paul's epistles apply to us today, but they did not apply to Adam. All Adam knew about these things was what God said to him in Genesis chapters 1 and 2, and we must not read anymore into it. If we read our doctrines back into his or any other's day, we wrest the Scriptures and end up with a doctrinal fantasy. Nowhere can we find where Adam was to have faith in anyone or believe in anyone, neither was the "new birth" or anything related to it even vaguely hinted at. Everything hinged upon Adam's works. One can easily see how Adam's dispensational setup concerning salvation is drastically different to our's today. Now, salvation is a free gift, entirely by grace through faith apart from any works whatsoever. Furthermore, a born again believer is much more than just forgiven or innocent in God's sight, he is RIGHTEOUS. He has the imputed righteousness of his Savior Jesus Christ. God knew when he devised eternal salvation that man needed much more than just his sins forgiven and placed back into an innocent state, he needs the righteousness of his Son Jesus Christ. From this position the believer CANNOT fall because he is in Christ and Christ is in him. God does not see the saved New Testament believer as only innocent (as Adam was), He sees him positionally with the perfect and spotless righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. We receive much more in Christ than we lost in Adam (Rom. 5:20). After the fall things were much different for Adam and Eve. Their sin brought guilt, the guilt brought shame, and all three together brought fear. They were now truly lost, and the knowledge of it scared them. What could they do now? Their new knowledge did not supply the answer for this question. They tried to cover their sin with fig leaves, but that did not relieve their conscious of guilt. "What will God think when He sees us?" The Lord was very gentle with His sinning creation. He did not consume them in His wrath or even belittle them. He just questioned them enough to get them to confess their sin and admit their guilt. After they confessed God offered His own covering for their sin in place of their self-righteous fig leaves, and they accepted. By doing so they abandoned their own means of dealing with sin for God's means, and that is all God asked of them. Here, however, we begin to see the entrance of faith concerning salvation. They did not need to have faith that God existed because He was right before them, but they did need to have faith in something God had promised to do. Of course, they were not to believe on someone who would die on a cross thousands of years later to redeem them from their sins, such a thing was unrevealed and unknown. All they knew was God was in some way going to send the "seed" of the woman to bruise the head of the serpent's seed and this would in some way deal with their sin and the curses. Looking forward to the "cross" is out of the question. All they knew was what God had shown and told them, nothing else. Of course, we today can look back and see the cross in Genesis 3:15 and 3:21, but this means nothing to Adam. He and Eve were saved by believing what God had said (faith) and by putting on the "coats of skins" God provided (works). The coats of skins, which God obtained by killing the animals, showed Adam (and us) two very important lessons. First, God was willing to provide salvation to man; second, a substitute could purchase a sinner's salvation with its life. We can see these lessons very clearly now, but Adam did not have the advanced revelation we enjoy and was not certain of what all he observed meant. In Christ: Phillip
I think the following is what Jeff was speaking about.Num 2:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch. Num 2:3 And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah. Num 2:4 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred. Num 2:5 And those that do pitch next unto him shall be the tribe of Issachar: and Nethaneel the son of Zuar shall be captain of the children of Issachar. Num 2:6 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred. Num 2:7 Then the tribe of Zebulun: and Eliab the son of Helon shall be captain of the children of Zebulun. Num 2:8 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred. Num 2:9 All that were numbered in the camp of Judah were a hundred thousand and fourscore thousand and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. These shall first set forth. Num 2:10 On the south side shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur. Num 2:11 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred. Num 2:12 And those which pitch by him shall be the tribe of Simeon: and the captain of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai. Num 2:13 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred. Num 2:14 Then the tribe of Gad: and the captain of the sons of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel. Num 2:15 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty. Num 2:16 All that were numbered in the camp of Reuben were a hundred thousand and fifty and one thousand and four hundred and fifty, throughout their armies. And they shall set forth in the second rank. Num 2:17 Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards. Num 2:18 On the west side shall be the standard of the camp of Ephraim according to their armies: and the captain of the sons of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud. Num 2:19 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty thousand and five hundred. Num 2:20 And by him shall be the tribe of Manasseh: and the captain of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur. Num 2:21 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred. Num 2:22 Then the tribe of Benjamin: and the captain of the sons of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni. Num 2:23 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred. Num 2:24 All that were numbered of the camp of Ephraim were a hundred thousand and eight thousand and a hundred, throughout their armies. And they shall go forward in the third rank. Num 2:25 The standard of the camp of Dan shall be on the north side by their armies: and the captain of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai. Num 2:26 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred. Num 2:27 And those that encamp by him shall be the tribe of Asher: and the captain of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran. Num 2:28 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and one thousand and five hundred. Num 2:29 Then the tribe of Naphtali: and the captain of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan. Num 2:30 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred. Num 2:31 All they that were numbered in the camp of Dan were a hundred thousand and fifty and seven thousand and six hundred. They shall go hindmost with their standards. Num 2:32 These are those which were numbered of the children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty. Num 2:33 But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses. Num 2:34 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses: so they pitched by their standards, and so they set forward, every one after their families, according to the house of their fathers.As far as I can tell Judah was to the East at the greatest distance from the center. The populations of the people on the East was 186,400. The population on the West was the smallest at 108,100. The populations on the North was fairly even at 157,600 compared to 151,450 for the South. So, the proportions of the populations as they camped around the ark was similar to the cross using the East as the base of the cross.
.Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: Amo 9:12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. Amo 9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. Amo 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.Yesterday, when I started reading into this thread, it seemed like you guys might get into some scriptures like the ones above. Some of the commentaries that I looked at with the above scriptures take these as unfulfilled prophesy that will take place in the future with the Northern tribes of Israel. Since I believe Israel still has a land covenant promise made by God that is literally forever, I can accept that, however, I see Christ’s kingdom as that kingdom of David that shall never end. These scriptures speak to me of revival with the plowman overtaking the reaper, etc. Every time I read something in the old testament that speaks of ruined places being rebuilt I think of my own life and many other people’s lives since new birth. He says above that he will bring again the captivity of his people. Isn’t that just what Jesus has does when he sets a person free from sinful habits or addictions? Those waist cities get rebuilt.
The following old testament scriptures also speak to me of revival. The waste cities are filled with flocks of men. In that day I shall have cleansed you………and the wastes shall be built up. How many hearts that have been wasted and destroyed by sin have been rebuilt in Christ? How many prodigal sons have used up their inheritance then finally returned to the father to have a ring put on them and shoes to cover their feet?Eze 36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be built. Eze 36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. Eze 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. Eze 36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. Eze 36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. Eze 36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.This sin polluted land that was defiled by the house of Israel was rebuilt. Possibly this is a fulfilled scripture or maybe even one to come but I would like to see, what this speaks to me, happen today in the day that I live in. I would like to see this sin polluted land that I live in go into revival.
CjakForEst's: Considering this, it actually makes more sense to have a scenario where tribulation occurs before the rapture (whether it comes post or mid).The trouble in the whole issue is the distinction between the tribulation in which the AntiChrist is pouring out his wrath upon the Saints and the wrath of God which falls on the people to where they desire to hide in the rocks and caves. Based upon what we know to be Church history, Christians have suffered unspeakable tortures at the hands of other men. Moreover, natural type disasters have also taken many lives and produced great fears even in our times. As with the great flood, so to at the time of the manifestation of the wrath of God, there will be great cause for the action. Would it be possible that the 'wrath' generated by the murder of every single believer that refused the 'mark' or the number of his name, sets the stage for the wrath of God to be poured out? I don't know, I'm just trying consider ALL options so that day will not take me unawares. The born again believer is certainly safe under the rature theory or not- as one is not saved because they believe in pre-trib, but because they believe on the Son of God. Either way, the born again are 'ready'. So why not at least allow for the possibility of the rapture really being just the mass martyrdom of the Saints at the hands of the Antichrist? It is not pretrib that disturbs me- it is the dogmatic way in which it is taught that is not kosher. There is way too much at stake for a Church to meet head on with mass martyrdom unawares. So even if it were remotely possible, why has it not been taught? To ignore such a possibility is the epitome of derelict.
Brother Phillip wrote:Can man get to God and His Heaven by keeping His requirements?Only by the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul teaches, Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. The Spirit reveals to us His requirements, (commands, judgements, ordinances, laws, precepts, and word). If by submitting to the Spirit, we 'put to death the deeds of the body," we will live. Only through the Spirit can we obey God's requirement to love Him with our whole heart and love one another. Man is unable to accomplish this because he is subject to the law of death, which I see as being in bondage to the carnal mind. Since Adam and Eve's fall this has been the covenant that God placed on man. His law has always ruled this universe. It is only by the Spirit can man satisfy God's law.John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. Jesus says to Nicodemus, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, Who is we that Jesus is refering to? Jesus speaks in the past tense to what "We know and testify what We have seen...How can anyone please God without being born from above? In ChristJeff
Brother Phillip asked:Who are the Body of Christ?Gen. 3:15 \tAnd I will put enmity\tBetween you and the woman,\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;\tHe shall bruise your head,\tAnd you shall bruise His heel.” All who are born of the woman. In ChristJeff
Brother Phillip quoted Morton:He received the lusted for knowledge of good and evil, but he also became lost, spiritually dead,Phillip, there are many incongruities in this persons beliefs. Here is one of them. He states that Adam became spiritually dead due to his rebellion. Yet this Morton says the Adam was not righteous before his rebellion. How can one be spiritually alive, yet not righteous? When Adam ate he did not fall from what we consider today as salvation, but he did fall from innocence to sin, from a relatively safe position into iniquity. When he was in innocence (remember, not righteousness) he was much better off than in guilt, and in this sense he fell from safety—salvation.Can you please explain what this means? First Morton says that Adam did not fall from what we understand salvation to be, and then Morton says "and in this sense he fell from safety-salvation." What is safety in the Scriptures? You are either the seed of Satan or the Seed of the woman. They did not need to have faith that God existed because He was right before them, but they did need to have faith in something God had promised to do.Who was before Adam and Eve? Just the Father? Does Morton deny the deity of Christ?These thoughts bring more confusion than clarity. God is the same always. Salvation is the same always. It is by the Spirit of God that we inherit the promise. It is by the Spirit of God that we are declared righteous. It is by the Spirit of God that we become His children. Righteousness is real. The Scriptures teach one to look to what you are not what you think you are. You are either a child of Satan or a child of God. In ChristJeff
Brother Gary wrote:far as I can tell Judah was to the East at the greatest distance from the center. The populations of the people on the East was 186,400. The population on the West was the smallest at 108,100. The populations on the North was fairly even at 157,600 compared to 151,450 for the South. So, the proportions of the populations as they camped around the ark was similar to the cross using the East as the base of the cross.Thankyou for working out the details Brother Gary. I can't even imagine how little we see of the treasures that are in Scripture. In ChristJeff
Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: The word of God was given to the generation of Amos as well as the generations that have followed. Would not the words of Amos impact those who searched for God in Amos's generation?So what would it mean when that generation read about the tabernacle of David being fallen, and that God was going to restore it as in the days of old? What were the effects of God's promise to that generation? Brother Gary wrote:Every time I read something in the old testament that speaks of ruined places being rebuilt I think of my own life and many other people’s lives since new birth. He says above that he will bring again the captivity of his people. Isn’t that just what Jesus has does when he sets a person free from sinful habits or addictions? Those waist cities get rebuilt.I believe the OT saints learned of the same thoughts as you have shared here. Continue to search in the OT for the things described in the NT. You will find Christ at work.God BlessIn ChristJeff
Brother Gary wrote:This sin polluted land that was defiled by the house of Israel was rebuilt. Possibly this is a fulfilled scripture or maybe even one to come but I would like to see, what this speaks to me, happen today in the day that I live in. I would like to see this sin polluted land that I live in go into revival. Ezek. 9:3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; 4 and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.” Ezek. 9:5 To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple. 7 Then He said to them, “Defile the temple, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!” And they went out and killed in the city. There were other generations that sighed and cried over all the abominations that have been done from within. Do you see the power of the word of God and how it affects a change in everything we do and think and feel? In ChristJeff
I just don't believe since we have Christ in us and and our Spirit is now for God the Father, how can Jesus deny Himself and put us that are in Him in the position of a beggarly state of going through the tribulation that Satan will rule in, when for us Satan has already been defeated. In this world you will have tribulation but take heart I (Jesus Christ) have overcome the world. Who can separate us from the Love of Christ. What is the tribulation for? What is peace? Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. This does not sound like we have to go through the tribulation to have peace with God and then we will be in His presence. Rom 5:3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; This does not sound like the tribulation where Satan rules and all must take his mark just to eat.The big question I have is, how are we the born again with Him when He comes at the end of the Tribulation to put Satan away for 1000 years and rule on this earth. We are already called into his Kingdom and Glory. 1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. Is not Jesus The Hope of Glory? 1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?Those also that have died or sleep in Christ will be with Him at His coming for the Born Again, not after the tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. To be absent from the body, that sleep in Jesus are present with the Lord and will come will come and be awakened from the grave and be caught up into the air with those that are still alive and remain, but will not proceed those that are asleep in Christ.How can this be? Us already with Him, when did He come and get us? 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.In Christ: Phillip
Brother Phillip wrote:I just don't believe since we have Christ in us and and our Spirit is now for God the Father, how can Jesus deny Himself and put us that are in Him in the position of a beggarly state2Tim. 2:11 This is a faithful saying:\t\tFor if we died with Him,\t\tWe shall also live with Him.12 If we endure,\t\tWe shall also reign with Him.\t\tIf we deny Him,\t\tHe also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless,\t\tHe remains faithful;\t\tHe cannot deny Himself. Jesus cannot deny Himself, He is always faithful. It is man who chooses to live in a beggarly state. Those who choose to live according to the flesh deny the power of God. In ChristJeff
By beggerly do you mean in prison, being tortured or without food and clothes and any certain dwelling plce? I think the american brand christianity doesn't hold water (so to speak).I like what the late Keith Green said about the tribulation period and the rapture, whether your pre-mid or post we need to be ready to go pre and prepare to go post. I like that! :-) now that's something you can rest in. Watch and Pray for you know not the hour that your Lord returns.
By beggerly do you mean in prison, being tortured or without food and clothes and any certain dwelling plce?This is exactly where we would be if it were post trib. Unless we took the mark of the beast.In Christ: Phillip
Heb. 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:\t“Today, if you will hear His voice,8 \tDo not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,\tIn the day of trial in the wilderness,9 \tWhere your fathers tested Me, tried Me,\tAnd saw My works forty years.10 \tTherefore I was angry with that generation,\tAnd said, “They always go astray in their heart,\tAnd they have not known My ways.’11 \tSo I swore in My wrath,\t“They shall not enter My rest.’ ”Heb. 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For what purpose does faith serve according to the whole counsel of God?In ChristJeff
We may not know the hour, but we can know how and where and ask for it quickly. We all fast because He is not with us, we all should want to stop fasting and come to fullness in Him. The only fullness left is in our mind and flesh, our fullness in spirit is complete in Christ.In Christ: Phillip
Brother Phillip wrote: The only fullness left is in our mind and flesh, our fullness in spirit is complete in Christ.I believe this is might be understood as "entering into God's rest," as spoken of by the Scripture that is in Hebrews. Do you Brother Phillip understand this to be the case in your life?In ChristJeff
Hebrews 4: 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Heb. 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. "For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His." How does this precept, which spans the generations from Adam to chapter 22 of Revelations impact your understanding of Dispensational Theology?In ChristJeff
How can this be? Us already with Him, when did He come and get us? I don't think we have to limit our understanding to simply the Lord 'coming' for us in the sense of 'rapture'. It is quite possible that the whole of Christendom will be martyred under the AntiChrist. There will be NO place to hide. Besides that, all it would take would be a bounty on a matching head and right hand without the mark. That sounds morbid I'm sure, but so do the ovens and gas chambers of the Nazi era. Men apart from God are capable of almost anything. People are too easily tracked these days and that is increasing by the day. It is possible that it would be a 'run but you can't hide' scenerio. We have to be careful to consider all possibilities. That is a common way of how we avoid disaster. This is why life jackets are worn and seat belts. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. (Matthew 16)
Again, to understand what Dispensational Theology is or is not one must start with the ideas of grace, faith, and salvation. Psalm 51Psa. 51:1 \tHave mercy upon me, O God,\tAccording to Your lovingkindness;\tAccording to the multitude of Your tender mercies,\tBlot out my transgressions. Do you believe God answered David's prayer?10 \tCreate in me a clean heart, O God,\tAnd renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 \tDo not cast me away from Your presence,\tAnd do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 \tRestore to me the joy of Your salvation,\tAnd uphold me by Your generous Spirit. 13 \tThen I will teach transgressors Your ways,\tAnd sinners shall be converted to You. If God answers prayers, by what means does God accomplish this work?16 \tFor You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;\tYou do not delight in burnt offering. 17 \tThe sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,\tA broken and a contrite heart—\tThese, O God, You will not despise. Did David depend on the law of Moses or the grace of God? Look carefully at these words,"or else I would give it:" What did David understand? What do others understand according to this Psalm?In ChristJeff
By Timothy S. Morgan:Noah and the ArkNoah is the first person God gave a direct command to since Adam. Noah was found righteous (his own righteousness by works, not Christ's) by God among his generation of wickedness (Gen. 7:1), and God, by His grace, told him to build an ark to protect him from His wrath. With this command God added (to Noah and his family only) another requirement for salvation beside those so far revealed—to build an ark. Noah's faith is readily seen in his immediate obedience in beginning to build. He trusted God's word no matter how silly it may have sounded to others and went to work—faith supplemented by works. Here, some say, "The building of the ark was only for Noah's physical salvation, not his soul's salvation. He was saved only by faith." Really? Show us the chapter and verse that says so. Where in Genesis chapters 1 through 7 can you find where Noah was saved by faith alone? Can't find it anyplace? How about searching the whole Bible, New Testament and all, for a verse that says Noah was saved by faith alone? Peter plainly says he was saved by water while in the ark (1 Pet. 3:20). You say, "Only his body was saved by water." Okay, PROVE IT with Scripture! If you can't you had better quit trusting someone else's opinion or your emotions for doctrine and begin trusting the Scriptures alone. Again, don't try to read Church Age doctrines into the past. John chapter 3 won't fit into Genesis chapter 6 no matter how hard you force it. If the ark had nothing to do with Noah's spiritual salvation, then the people who drowned in the flood may have been saved too, just not physically! God told Noah to build an ark, and if he refused, he would have drowned; simple as that. Do you think he would have drowned saved? On what grounds? That Noah was found righteous (a righteousness based upon his OWN works relative to other men) at the beginning would mean nothing if he disobeyed a direct command from God; he would no longer be considered righteous. Since he refused to do what God said, he would likely perish just like the rest of the world. Unless God intervened and offered another means of salvation (as He did with Adam), Noah would have died lost—an unrepentant sinner. His quick obedience in building the ark, however, proved he had the proper faith. Faith supplemented by works. Today, saved people can refuse to do what God has commanded and they DON'T forfeit their salvation. Millions of regenerated believers disobey God's commands and their salvation is unaffected. Why? The difference is in the dispensations and also in what happens INSIDE the believer. You should be beginning to see, Christian, how you have a much more gracious age to live under with much better promises to claim than those of the past. We have many more privileges than Noah, but with the privileges come responsibilities. This is just a portion of The difference is in the dispensations.In Christ: Phillip
Sorry I left out Dispensation of Conscience, By Timothy S. MorganCain and AbelAfter Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden, God did not appear to them again. Since God no longer walked among His creation, faith came even more into play concerning His dealings with man. Cain and Abel were born after the expulsion and there is no record they ever saw God or heard Him speak (Cain did hear Him AFTER he offered his bloodless sacrifice). Apparently, all they knew of God was what they learned from their parents. When they went to offer sacrifices for their sins they were offering them by faith to a God they did not personally know, so their salvation, as well as (it appears) the salvation of all others in the Dispensation of Conscience, was based on faith along with an element of works. Abel had the right faith and the right works; Cain had some faith but the wrong works, but each must have works to be accepted. God told Cain, "If thou DOEST well, shalt thou not be accepted?" (Gen. 4:7). Suppose Abel would have said, "I believe I am a sinner, and I believe God is willing to cover my sins if I offer a bloody substitute," but he did not offer the substitute, would he still be accepted? There is no indication he would have. He would have been in the same unaccepted condition as Cain. Along with his faith Abel had to perform the WORK of killing the offering and offer it to God before he would be respected (Gen. 4:4). As for Cain, he had faith that God existed (like the devils, Jam. 2:19), but he did not have the faith and works to present the proper sacrifice to God. Abel was respected by God because of faith and works, and Cain was rejected by the lack of the same. Either way works played a part in the salvation of many during this period. From what the Scriptures reveal to us about the Dispensation of Conscience, every saved person in it was saved by grace through faith with works playing a part. Furthermore, with a few notable exceptions (which we will examine shortly) every saved person in the entire Old Testament was saved by faith connected with works. When people in the Old Testament were saved nothing happened IN them spiritually. Of course, God imputed righteousness to their account when they obeyed him, but they were not regenerated, a son of God, indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit, part of the body of Christ, and the rest of the salvation doctrines unique to this age. Their sins were only covered, not taken away. In many ways they were saved on credit because Christ had not yet died on the cross to purchase their eternal redemption. But those in the Dispensation of Conscience knew practically none of this. Again, all they knew was what God had revealed up to that time as found in Genesis chapter 3: 1. Man is a sinner and doomed to death (3:7). 2. Man and the earth are cursed because of Adam's sin (3:17). 3. The woman's "seed" will bruise the head of the serpent's seed (they MAY have understood this to somehow relieve man of sin, death, and the curses), and the serpent's seed will bruise the woman's seed's heel (3:15). 4. Man has a knowledge of good and evil; a conscience that will excuse or convict his heart (3:5-6). 5. God will offer man a covering to cover his sin (3:21. 6. An animal substitute can supply the covering (3:21). If God had other requirements of people during this dispensation they are not mentioned until we come to Noah. Reading New Testament doctrines into this time period brings nothing but confusion. Also, there is no reason to believe, or any verse to suggest that these people could not loose their salvation during this period. We will look more into this later, but nearly all of those saved in the Old Testament simply did not have anything in them (indwelling Holy Spirit) or any promise from God to permanently secure their salvation. Therefore, one could by faith (along with works) be saved and be on the right path toward "enduring to the end," and then, by a lack of faith fall away and loose all they gained. In a nutshell people are saved in every dispensation by simply doing what God SAYS. Sometimes it is works alone, sometimes faith alone, and sometimes both faith and works. In Christ: PhillipGuess who is next? The big one, Abraham.
Timothy Morgan wrote: How about searching the whole Bible, New Testament and all, for a verse that says Noah was saved by faith alone?No one ever was saved by "faith alone." Thoughtout Scripture one is saved by grace through faith. To imply that anyone could be saved by faith alone speaks to the doctrine of men and not God. In Christ Jeff
Timothy Morgan wrote:His quick obedience in building the ark, however, proved he had the proper faith. Faith supplemented by works. Today, saved people can refuse to do what God has commanded and they DON'T forfeit their salvation. Millions of regenerated believers disobey God's commands and their salvation is unaffected. Why? The difference is in the dispensations and also in what happens INSIDE the believer. You should be beginning to see, Christian, how you have a much more gracious age to live under with much better promises to claim than those of the past. We have many more privileges than Noah, but with the privileges come responsibilities. Sorry Brother Phillip, this man you quote is a FALSE TEACHER. He is one like Paul warns Timothy about:2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.Faith can be overthrown by those who teach the ressurrection is already past. Thoughtout Scripture one is saved by grace through faith. It is God who speaks to man, it is man's responisblility to obey. Acts 14:21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed. 24 And after they had passed through Pisidia, they came to Pamphylia. 25 Now when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down to Attalia. 26 From there they sailed to Antioch, where they had been commended to the grace of God for the work which they had completed. Paul understood the need to pray and fast. Jesus prayed and fasted. So should we.In ChristJeff
Again, to understand what Dispensational Theology is or is not one must start with the ideas of grace, faith, and salvation. Psalm 51Psa. 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness; According to the multitude of Your tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions. Do you believe God answered David's prayer?10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit. 13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners shall be converted to You. If God answers prayers, by what means does God accomplish this work?16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart— These, O God, You will not despise. Did David depend on the law of Moses or the grace of God? Look carefully at these words,"or else I would give it:" What did David understand? What do others understand according to this Psalm?In ChristJeff
Edited myself here ... but wanted to revisit this thread by brother Robert. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9750&forum=40&9I need to rest my own eyes now. HA.God Bless.Annie
Their sins were only covered, not taken away.As far as the east is from the west so far has he REMOVED our transgressions from us... Ps. 103;12Diane
Mat 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. Not being with Christ in body is the only fast we have. Christ is our fast, we are not with Him in body. We have the mind of Christ, and the Spirit and need no fasting.In Christ: Phillip
Mat 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. Not being with Christ in body is the only fast we have. Christ is our fast, we are not with Him in body. We have the mind of Christ, and the Spirit and need no fasting.That's incorrect.As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Act 13:2,3Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. 1Co 7:5Phillip, if anything in this day we need more of it would be just this, fasting and prayer, prayer and fasting. Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. Isa 58:3-12
Quote:"""That's incorrect.As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Act 13:2,3"""I wrote: Mat 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. Not being with Christ in body is the only fast we have. Christ is our fast, we are not with Him in body. We have the mind of Christ, and the Spirit and need no fasting. Sorry I should have added, need no fasting outwardly.The Bride Groom is not with the bride in completion. The bride is truly fasting without her bridegroom. The Body of Christ the Church, the bride, is truly incomplete until Christ comes to claim His chosen bride, when the dead in Christ will be raised first and we that are left will caught up together with Christ headed for the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.How can fasting by not eating as a show of fasting be what God Intended? I did not say to not pray and fast, I said, Jesus is our fast, and Jesus is our prayer. Are we not to pray without ceasing and are we not fasting if Christ is not with us in The Flesh. That is why I said we have no need of Fasting in our minds and spirit, because He is with us and in us and all that we do we do to the Glory of God by the Christ that is in us. Our every thought is to be in captivity to the Glory of Christ and the Father and the Holy Spirit is the revealer of this truth. Remember all that He said is to be brought to our remembrance in all that we say and do. I am not, again NOT trying to get people to not pray or fast. I am only saying our Fast is Christ and our Prayers are Christ, He that is in us is our all in all and we don't need a show of praying and fasting, we need a new spirit of praying and fasting in Christ Jesus our Lord. My prayers are only heard by the Father if Christ is the object and power of that prayer by the Holy Spirit, we don't even know what to pray but the Holy Spirit does and He through the Christ that is in us are the Prayers that God can act on, Hither to ye have ask nothing in my name, now ask that you might receive.Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you. Jhn 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. Why shall we receive? Because it is the Holy Spirit praying for us through the Christ that is in us. My fast and my prayer are by the Holy Spirit through the Christ that is in me 24 hours a day. Think on these things. Philippians 4:7-9 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.And so he who mind is kept on Thee, Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace.Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things. Does this not sound like 1 Corinthians 13, And Who is Charity and Love but the Christ that is in us.Only the Christ in us is these things by prayer and fasting, always He is the Truth, Honesty, The Just One, The Pure One, The Only One The Father has given a Good Report of, The Only Virtuous One, and there is no praise for any of these things unless Christ is The User of them in us.In Christ: Phillip
Brother Phillip wrote: Our every thought is to be in captivity to the Glory of Christ and the Father and the Holy Spirit is the revealer of this truth. Remember all that He said is to be brought to our remembrance in all that we say and do. This is what God has given us in Christ. How does faith bring us to this understanding? In ChristJeff
I was just wondering what works the thief on the cross did other than express faith alone in the Lordship of Jesus as messiah?
I think that sometimes in our efforts to gain a deeper experience in our faith and relationship with Christ we reach for truths that just aren't there. We, who are God's creation, we who are His redeemed, are in truth His sons and daughters, and He is not ashamed to call us His brethren. Simple faith is the door way and obedience to His teachings and word are evidence to that simple faith. :-)
Brother D wrote:I was just wondering what works the thief on the cross did other than express faith alone in the Lordship of Jesus as messiah?Matt. 20:1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and said to them, “You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, “Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, “Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’Matt. 20:8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, “These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, “Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”I think this parable should begin to answer your question Brother D.In ChristJeff
Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Like Peter, who had revealed that Jesus was Lord? Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.All the thief did was believe what a Faith much Higher than his own had revealed to him and he believed, that is all any of us can do to receive salvation. Then we work out our salvation by the Faith of the Son of God that is in us, not my faith but His Faith, without which we can not see the things of the Kingdom, but with Him and His Faith we can see all things revealed to us by the Holy Spirit Comforter Teacher. Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the (faith of the Son of God,) who loved me, and gave himself for me. AND: Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.His Faith, Not my works of faith.By revelation of the Revealer: John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.In Christ: Phillip
Brother Phillip wrote: Then we work out our salvation by the Faith of the Son of God that is in us, not my faith but His Faith, without which we can not see the things of the Kingdom, John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”This is an example of the testimony of Jesus. This light that He brings to men gives us the means by which we can know the Father. Is this the "Faith" you speak of Brother Phillip?In ChristJeff
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.This truly is the light that shines in us and from us. The fulfillment of the Word of God.Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:We have much, much more than even the scripture gives us, we have the Life of Christ born again in us. We cannot begin to fathom the depth of this that God has done. That is why we will have the Holy Spirit forever, we will be learning the depth of what God has done for all eternity.Again my favorite scripture: Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.What a statement, Christ liveth in me. John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.AS CHRIST said, so can we. Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:Father glorify us as we were glorified in Christ before the foundation of the world.Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen. In Christ: Phillip
The manifestation of the Life in the believer will bring this about otherwise we blaspheme the Holy Spirit.Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Paul instruct Titus so that the power of the word of God is not blasphemed.1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; 3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— 4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. Brother Phillip, what do you think about this teaching by Paul? In ChristJeff
As in all of Paul's letters (epistles) he first give the the only way believers can accomplish anything in this world and that is to know that the Christ that is in them is the only one that has overcome this world that is against all that God is. Our dependence in not on what we can do for the Kingdom of God in Heavenly Places, but on Who Christ is and His Power. We must keep these things in the forefront of all that we do in allowing The Power of The Holy Spirit to be able to accomplish anything that Paul is saying. First we must come to this truth: Titus 1:1-4 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.All of everything that Paul has had revealed to him about the Christ that is in him is revealed in this opening to Titus and with the rest of the letter and all its way of not blaspheming the Holy Spirit by teaching all that Christ is in a human being and how to bring it about true godliness in the Body of Christ. The people must know first the their life is in Christ and depend on no other to bring about the Rock of revelation which is Christ in the Believer and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. This Rock is the revelation of The Christ that is the Son of God born again in the believer and is all our power all our work and all our life to God our Father, just as Christ is The Son to the Father, so are we in Him.Matthew 16:17-18 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not ((revealed)) it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this ((rock)) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.The ((Revealed Rock)) is Christ the Son of God and Christ in you is the hope of Glory.In Christ: Phillip
Brother Phillip do you see any difference between works of the Law and works of faith?Jeff
Works of the Law are ones own works to obey God in my own strength and get to heaven on the basis of my good works. Works of Faith are works of Christ that is in me and by His Faith and His works I am saved, and by His Works of Faith in me I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling of the Power and Might and Strength and Love of Him. I am so nothing, He is so much and by His Faith I move and work toward the High Calling of God In Christ Jesus my Lord.In Christ: Phillip
The answer to my question was simple, He did no work, he wasn't even like the man in the parable who went and labored at the last call. He had recieved a deep sense of conviction about eternity and the reality of the kingdom Jesus possessed, he understood that Christ was in deed God the messiah and he not only accepted that fact but yeilded to its reality and spoke with his mouth that truth or testomony. He was saved by faith alone and did no great deed in works to evidence that salvation, as we would count evidence, yet Jesus -- God who sees the heart said of him today you will be with me in paradise. I think its important that in all our learning, and doctrine we leave room for the Soverienty of God who knows the hearts of all men everywhere.
Thank you Brother Phillip.If the work of faith is His faith working in me do I have any participation, any cooperation, or do I only give assent or agree in my head that He is doing everything?Jeff
dohzman wrote:The answer to my question was simple, He did no work, he wasn't even like the man in the parable who went and labored at the last call. He had recieved a deep sense of conviction about eternity and the reality of the kingdom Jesus possessed, he understood that Christ was in deed God the messiah and he not only accepted that fact but yeilded to its reality and spoke with his mouth that truth or testomony.Ravenhill mentions the thief in Judgement Seat of Christ by raising his belief that he can't see the thief receiving the same reward in heaven as John Wesley or the like.I heard a comment somewhere else, regarding the Thief, that he was converted unto salvation, but not unto regeneration, which meant although he was fit for heaven, he was not fit for earth in the interim. The question raised here is one of glorifying the God. If this is this case, then regeneration was not necessary here, because the thief was unable to tarnish the glory of God after his conversion.This would maintain a continuance of the eternal covenant, with the thief entrusting his realtionship with God and therefore admission into his kingdom on the substitutionary sacrifice of the Lamb of God, by faith. The works only prove the faith.Perhaps the thief will be as Obed-Edom in heaven, content to be the least in the kingdom of heaven, in appreciation for the undeserved mercy revealed unto him.
CJaKfOrEsT said:"Perhaps the thief will be as Obed-Edom in heaven, content to be the least in the kingdom of heaven, in appreciation for the undeserved mercy revealed unto him."Does this compare with what Jesus said:Luke 19:17 "And he said unto him, Well done, thou good servant: because thou wast found faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities." ASVSince the thief on the cross had no time to be faithful, then in the reign with Christ will he be least?Jeff
h2oboy wrote:CJaKfOrEsT said:"Perhaps the thief will be as Obed-Edom in heaven, content to be the least in the kingdom of heaven, in appreciation for the undeserved mercy revealed unto him."Does this compare with what Jesus said:Luke 19:17 "And he said unto him, Well done, thou good servant: because thou wast found faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities." ASVSince the thief on the cross had no time to be faithful, then in the reign with Christ will he be least?My comments were merely speculation built upon thoughts given by Leonard Ravenhill. The point of what I was saying was that the thief is somenone who can help us to get our eyes off of heaven and onto Christ as the focus of our destination. Perhaps he can be considered "great in the kingdom" because in this he is a "servant of all", even to us today? Either way eternal covenant remains unchanged, although this presents another variation of it's outworking.*Edit*The Obed-Edom was to direct our attention to the guy in 2 Samuel who left all to pursue the the presence of God, lowering himself to menial tasks, after hosting the ark on his property.*edit*
In light of the obed-edom remark, it's interesting to note Jesus' comments about the least in the Kingdom of Heaven being greater that John the Baptist (there's another can of worms :-) )
Brother Jeff, your wrote:Thank you Brother Phillip.If the work of faith is His faith working in me do I have any participation, any cooperation, or do I only give assent or agree in my head that He is doing everything?JeffI seem to have hit a nerve. I am sorry you feel that way but your question is not valid from what I wrote. Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. This say we do it. I do the living by the faith of Christ, I live in the flesh, I do not frustrate the Grace of God, but these things are the things of God and must be done in the Power of The Holy Spirit. We do it.Just a small example: Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I (Phillip) counted loss for Christ. Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I (Phillip) count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I (Phillip) have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I (Phillip) may win Christ, I think We can understand that we are the ones that do all things in Christ that we might win Him in every aspect of our lives.Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Phl 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Please forgive if I have been contentious, that is not my Goal. Sometimes I get into such things that I myself have experienced and forget I may not explain it to someone else's understanding. Pray for me, thanks: Phillip
This made Paul a minister of Christ and he never wavered when it came to the revelation of Christ in him.-Why the other apostles are not mention in this tread ? Like First John or First Peter, James, Jude ?1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:-Do we need to confess our sins? Does Jesus intercedes for us? 1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.Now how is it? Who is born of God? Who does righteousness. So my life testifies whether I am born of God or not-When He shall appear will we be ashamed? a)\tNo because His righteousness is in us. b)\tNo because we abide in His word and obey it. 1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Quote: -When He shall appear will we be ashamed? a) No because His righteousness is in us. b) No because we abide in His word and obey it.Most of all because we abide in Him.1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.John like Paul had great revelation of the Christ in him and was the bridge between the synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of Christ and the Holy Spirit and God the Father living in the believer by Grace through Faith. Peter was taught of Paul that the Incorruptable Seed abides in us and told us to listen to Paul, even though some of Paul's words were hard to understand. 2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.And Who is the Word of God? John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus Christ, AmenIn Christ: Phillip