Is the Catholic Church a true Christian Church?

HI! kk. just try to keep this simple, no long writting for a boring post.?(( what makes a True belief in Christ?)))) ,and What is the true Creed, and dogma,of a Christ believing Church???

I would just simply like to ask this question.Did our brothers and sisters who died opposing Romish rule, and religious tyranny die in vain?There has never been a time until recently that Protestants and Roman Catholics sided together.Perhaps supporters of Rome should look at the website of the Vatican, and read their Catechism which was wriiten by Ratzinger himself I believe.Here are some excerpts 1. 963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503 1. 966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: 1. 492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137 ARTICLE 1THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM 1. 1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5 1. 1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7 The newly baptized is now, in the only Son, a child of God entitled to say the prayer of the children of God: "Our Father." 1. 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82 I have more if requested. Please do not get me wrong, I am not Catholic bashing but rather Truth sharing!

What is the Creed of the christain Church???The body of Christ.Answer this 1st!!!! this will stop all the finger pointing,what is the church built upon????? answer this???? PLease answer this ???? before judging one another,Let that be in Gods hands.

What is the Creed of the christain Church???The body of Christ.Answer this 1st!!!! this will stop all the finger pointing,what is the church built upon????? answer this???? PLease answer this ???? before judging one another,Let that be in Gods hands.I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying.I do not think that it is wrong to point out the core beliefs of the Roman church. Christ said to beware of "false prophets" so we need to beware of anyhting that is contrary to scripture. It is not judgemental to post what they believe is it? This is from the Vatican website.I think perhaps you have me all wrong, as I am not trying to judge anyone, just to put forth truth.Perhaps you can tell me do you beleive that Mary is the co-redeemer of mankind?Have you ever investigated the obelisk that is in St. Peter's square? Did you know that this is the same obelisk from the book of Jeremiah? Jeremiah 43:13"He will also shatter the obelisks of Heliopolis, which is in the land of Egypt; and the temples of the gods of Egypt he will burn with fire."(NASB) Did you know that surrounding the obelisk is a four spoked design, which happens to be the symbol of Baal, and then there is an eight spoked design around that which is the symbol for Ishtar? And do you think these are by coincidence?

Hi Krispy,I guess sermonindex is not for me. There was a day that I would go to great lengths to defend myself and my beliefs, but I feel that is counterproductive when you are not considering changing your mind. I came to sermonindex for the fellowship and encouragement and I have enjoyed a great deal of that from Greg and Ron and Diane and others. I think I've given a bit from time to time, too. I realize that my posts about Catholics were a bit heated, but comparing Catholics and homosexuals on your part was a bit off-color if you ask me.I guess that I often feel in these forums that we're in a race of intellects or something, and if I fish around and don't come up with the right piece of theology or history, I've lost the race that I didn't know I was in. It's very competative, and I've had enough. Krispy, I think it's a bit of a cop out to give me such a response (noted: the snide comment about "political correctedness"--if I was the kind to go with the majority, I wouldn't be going against the overwhelming flow on this issue), and then send a pm to smooth things over. I am probably not the first to tell you that you're a bit too "krispy", am I? Something to think about...I guess one of the downfalls of an online situation is that you really don't know the other person, except in a sort of one-dimensional way. Krispy, you don't know me at all--not at all...I feel that we are beginning to talk less and less loving Jesus and more and more about theological correctness. I, for one, have other things to do and would like to bow out gracefully if that is possible...PhebeP.S. My brother worked in Mother Teresa's home for the dying in Calcutta and guess what? I am looking forward very much to meeting Mother Teresa in heaven.

You see this is my very point,none of you =j-bird or roaringlabm, none of you can come up with the true common creed that links christains together by the core of there very belief! but so fast to point out there differences!

brethreni was raised catholic and first found Christ there. i was not aware of the depth of the doctrines and dogma and all that other stuff. i believed Christ died for my sins and was pretty much foggy on the other stuff. most catholics aren't very knowledgeable concerning doctrine or dogma. having learned some about it i'm not a practising catholic but that's where i first heard Christ preached and accepted Him as have many others before and since. my mom is pretty well-versed in catholic doctrine and all that so naturally i was concerned for her and asked her if Christ was her savior. She confessed that and that was it for me. She's saved alright but after many years of being catholic there is clearly a lot of stuff that needs to be discarded which doesn't happen overnight. i don't think anyone here who has been saved can say that all the mess that was in their life before was done away with immediately. it goes without saying that catholicism is filled with all kinds of lies and blasphemies against God but so does protestantism (perhaps to a lesser degree) also contain its foolishnesses too. in looking at protestant churches and structure for instance, it's no different from the catholic church (save for no pope) the priest is now a pastor, the litergy is the same pretty much, the hierarchy is the same, the one thing that is different is that the protestant churches profess a salvation on grace only as opposed to some grace and then some sacramental aspect as in catholicism. bro Krispy you mentioned that passage in revelation in which the angel called out to God's people to come out. that says to me that the Lord will have some of His elect there in the midst till the last minute so that they can hear the Lord call them out and then they'll come out. why He has it so, i don't know save to say for His own good pleasure.

In the Early Church,There were many differnt forms of the Christian confession of faith,before being Baptized.The earliest Christain creed was Probaby a simple confession of faith.That Jesus is the Christ,The Messiah,and that Christ is Lord,By publicly confessing this belief,the person could be baptized into Christ,dying,andRising with Him into the New life of The Kingdom of God in the Name of the father, and The Son,and The Holy Spirit.thus in the Gospel we find John the Baptist baptizing the people as a sign of repentance in preparation for the Kingdom of God which was coming to men with Christ The Messiah.Christ him self was baptized by John not because he was sinful and needed to repent, but because in allowing Himself to be baptized He showed that indeed He was "God's Beloved Son"The Saviour and Messiah ,"The Lamb of God who takes upon Himself the sins of the world"matthew 3,mark 1,luke3,john 1-3

perhaps the best thing to do in these doctrinal tiffs(i think i just made that word up, anyways in Matts dictionary it means quarrel or small fight) is to remember that it doesnt matter wether we pronounce one church(lowercaps for a reason) evil, or right, or anti-christ. Because in the end we should be witnessing to everyone and wether they be rc, baptist, aog, luth whatever there should always be a prompting for sharing testimonies with any new person that claims christianity. If they have a story then I'd brand em "Christian" if not then...well we know what to do :). As for the rc church...if any believes in grace by faith and works...aint gonna cut it with God

Frankly, I don't believe that any denomination is the "true" Church - though they all think they are. Only those individuals who have been born from above - by the Spirit, those who are true FOLLOWERS of Christ, live by the law of the Spirit, and persevere to the end are his. There are many who believe that they are born again and feel secure belonging to the "right' denomination. However, they are just as lost in their self-deception as the worst of any religion. Having said that, I do believe that some churches have better creeds than others. For example, the Presbyterians where I am read the Apostle's Creed frequently. However, I know that very few of them take the words seriously. They just read the words Some may believe them, itelectually, but many don't know what the words mean and most don't really care. At least that's the way I see it, I could be wrong. (Although the Lord did reveal to me supernaturally that most of them were trusting in their building.) Baptists, Pentacostals these days have a tendency to preach easy believism. That is just as deadly as RC's long list of 'requirements'. How many Catholics read their creeds and really believe them with all their hearts? I don't know, but I suspect the vast majority go through the religious motions with a passive mind (just like in most churches) assuming that their religious allegiance gets them into heaven. I wouldn't want to judge Mother Teresa. I once read some of her meditations and she expressed her faith in Christ. If she didn't make it into heaven then I would suspect that almost NO evangelical will. Mother Teresa sure fit the bill as far as surrendering her life to Christ and giving up the pleasures of this world in order to love the destitute. I ask, is it less sinful to trust in one's church affiliation, building, creeds, material things, etc than to trust in Mary? Are some "idols" permissable (like ours) while someone else's idols will mean hell for them? affectionately your thorn, Diane

If I have come across as self righteous at all I apologize as this not my intention. I believe that a person may truly find Christ in the RC system. For example Fenelon, Madame Guyon etc. But I think that there then comes a moment where they are at odds over what is right and what is wrong.I too do not think that there is one group who is distinctly correct, but by simply using scripture one can and should examine first his/her own heart to see if they be in the faith, and then the heart of whatever denomination/movement they belong to to see if they be in the faith.It matters little who is right and who is wrong, yet the point is as Paul says to preach Christ, and repentance toward GOD, and faith in Jesus Christ.I trust that we can agree on that! :-)

so can any here agree that the catholic church, are christians, do you think for one moment that a church founded by peter,could have lasted so long if they where not true christian.if fact there may be issue in any church that might diff from yours.what is the common creed in christian That Christ Is Lord and Saviour,"Lamb of God who takes upon himself the sins of the world."to belive other than this is called false christ,like Jim jones in 1979!!!

church founded by peterThe RC church was not founded by Peter, but instead it was created when Constantine married Christianity to the idol worship of the Roman Empire. Thus you get the statues etc. You should really look into the history of the RC church, and the Protestant church and then see for yourself.I suppose it simply depends on what Christ is being taught within any individual fellowship or church.

I did not say that rcc was founded by peter,Do you remember Jim Jones in 1979, or where you to young, if not, do a search on it.do you know what the rcc creed is about? do they teach Christ The Messiah! Christ Risen!The Good News!If yes than what is your point?

Do you remember Jim Jones in 1979 I do know who Jim Jones was, and it was a tragic thing that happened in Guyana. I also know how Mr. Jones professed himself to be god. I have to tell you that this is similar to the view that the Pope has of himself being the "vicar of Christ."Also the way that the traditional teachings of Popes are held above scripture in many instances.I do not understand this creed you are talking about as you have yet to declare what you are getting at, but creeds are not scripture, and thus never take the place of scripture no matter how sincere they be.

LeT me break it down a creed,is something we christians can agree on about are faith,Pope is not veiwed as a christ like fig or christ himself..but as a apostle like fig..Get your facts straight before making such claim.

Very well stated J-bird :-D

so what is the point that you are trying to make!that there are different Christ?. I'm not Catholic, but i don't see the point that this post is making really! it's like throwing stones in a Glass house.I think you all should have somthing better to with your time than judge other about there Faith in Christ,who are you to Judge!pLEASE CHECK YOUR SELF!IS THE FINGER GREATER THAN THE EYE?

Brother I choose to bow out of this, for it is not profitable nor edifying. May Christ be with you. :-)

dON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT J-BIRD!iT'S NOT ABOUT ME,IT ABOUT ALL YOU WHO ARE JUDGING ANOTHER ONE'S FAITH IN CHRIST!

No one here is questioning anyone else's faith. Krispy started this thread not b/c he's exalting himself above believers in the Catholic Church, he did it just to discuss their doctrine.Now, does the RCC preach Christ crucified? sure, but so do mormons and JWs. You don't get their crazy doctrines like Jesus being Michael and 144,000 until you get into their church for a while. You don't get the mormons carrying out their temple sacrifices and recreating Adam and Eve trying to atone for their own sins until you are in it awhile.Paul said that if any man preach another gospel which he did not preach, then they were accursed. So does the RCC preach the same gospel Paul preached? Eph 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace through faith ALONE. But official RCC doctrine says in Canon 9 of the Council of Trent: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema." Direct contradiction to what Paul preached in regards to salvation.The Catholic Church Catechism says, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life". Really?Are there people in the Catholic Church that are saved? sure, and they are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Are there people in the Protestant church that aren't saved? sure, and they aren't our brothers and sisters. But does the RCC teach the true message of salvation. ABSOLUTELY NOT. And that is what Krispy is getting at, not condemning someone to hell for ever having been in a Catholic church. The truth needs to be told, and our brothers and sisters that ARE in the RCC need the truth so they can get out. But then again, they might not leave b/c they are taught that if you leave the Catholic church, you are accursed. That is why one my best friend's mother was so distraught when he got truly saved and left the RCC.

How can you ask "have you been born again" apart from beliving in Christ? j-bird or apart from the sinner prayer. or apart from Confessing Christ as Lord Saviour!or apart from reptance!

5 Reasons Catholics aren't ChristianT = TRINITY OF GOD USURPED! The Pope claims the place and names that belong to God alone (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, III para. 18). God, the Father: He claims he is "The Holy Father". This is the unique name of God the Father. John 17:11 "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." — ‘Thine own name!’ It is God's name alone - it cannot belong to anyone else.Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."God, the Son: He claims he is "The Head of the Church". This title belongs to Christ alone.Colossians 1:18 "And [Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."Ephesians 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."God, the Holy Spirit: He claims he is "The Vicar of Christ". This is the office of the Holy Spirit alone.John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."The Pope even takes the very name of God. The New York Catechism calls the Pope, "the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God Himself on earth." THE TRINITY OF GOD IS USURPED IN ROMAN CATHOLICISM!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I = INTER-MEDIATION OF CHRIST USURPED! The Bible states, "There is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:5,6). Rome claims that in her masses she can repeat the sacrifice of the cross and change the wafer and wine into the very body and very blood of Christ. She claims that she perpetuates the sacrifice of the cross (Eucharisticum Mysterium, Intro. C, 1). Again, "In the sacrifice of the Mass our Lord is immolated" [killed as a victim] (Ibid, C, 2).Christ cried on the cross, "It is finished" John 19:30.Hebrews 9:25,26 "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."Hebrews 10:12 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God."Rome has elevated Mary to the place of mediation. John Paul II states that "in Mary is effected the reconciliation of God with humanity" (On Reconciliation and Penance. St. Paul Editions, p. 139).No Christian can accept "The Cult of the Blessed Virgin" (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, VIII para. 66). It is idolatrous and an insult to our Lord Jesus Christ.THE INTER-MEDIATION OF CHRIST IS USURPED BY ROMAN CATHOLICISM!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------A = AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE USURPED!The Church of Rome cannot establish her false claims that she alone is the preserver of God’s Word and the maintainer of the Truths of the same. Rome is far from being a believer in the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice.Her rejection of the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice has been brought about by the many additions she has made to Holy Scripture. The command and warning of God is crystal clear that the Bible must not be added to.Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."Deuteronomy 12:32 "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."Proverbs 30:6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."Jeremiah 23:28 "He that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully."Revelation 22:18 "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book."Now the Church of Rome has been found out to be a liar and has had added to it the plagues of the Apocalypse – as God stated in Proverbs 30:6 and Revelation 22:18 – by adding to God’s Word.Rome adds to God’s Word by adding more books to the Canonical Scriptures, known as the Apocryphal Books. These books were never received by the Jewish Church (Romans 3:2); they were never quoted by Christ; they were rejected by the Christian Fathers; and they are self-evidently not inspired. The writer apologises for defects (2 Maccabees 15:39) and one seemingly commands suicide. They are no part of Holy Scripture; yet, they were added into the Canon by the Church of Rome to make up Rome’s Bible. Rome also adds to the Bible apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions. Oral tradition evolved into written tradition and the unreliability of oral tradition is exposed in John 21:22,23.Rome also adds that the interpretation of Scripture must have the "unanimous consent of the fathers". Alas the fathers were far from being unanimous. They contradicted themselves and rarely consented. In fact, strange to relate Gregory the Great Bishop of Rome stated that the Bishop who claimed to be the Universal Bishop is the forerunner of the Antichrist (Gregory Reqisto. Epist. 1.b. v11. Ind. Is epis 33 ed Benet Domisitos).Christ warned against tradition and stated, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:3,6,9).Rome stands out as a self-exposed liar and as the target of the judgments of Almighty God by her deliberate adding to the Holy Scriptures of Truth.At the end of the 19th century Rome added on to the Scripture the infallibility of the Pope having for years said that the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope was a "Protestant falsehood" (see Papal Catechism). THE AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE IS USURPED BY ROMAN CATHOLICISM!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------R = REMISSION OF SINS USURPED! John Paul II states "It would be foolish and presumptuous … to claim to receive forgiveness while doing without the sacrament" of penance (On Reconciliation and Penance p.115). He further insists that the individual confession to a priest to receive absolution from him "constitutes the only ordinary way in which the faithful who are conscious of serious sin are reconciled to God" (Ibid, p.132).The Bible shows us that the way to true remission of sins is clearly contrary to that of the way of Popes, earthly priests, absolutions, and penances:Ezra 10:11 "Make confession unto the Lord God."Psalm 32:5 "I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin."Matthew 11:28 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."The Lord Jesus never put any earthly priest or Pope between Himself and the sinner. THE REMISSION OF SINS IS USURPED BY ROMAN CATHOLICISM!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------A = ASSURANCE OF SALVATION USURPED! Rome has put her curse on the Bible way of salvation. "If any man says that it is by the righteousness of Christ itself that men are formally justified – let him be accursed" (Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 10)."Sins must be expiated. This must be done in this earth through the sorrows, miseries, and trials of this life and above all through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments of purifying punishments" (Indulgentiarum Doctrina, I para. 2).Rome thereby removes all assurances a sinner may hope to receive of their eternal salvation. However, the Bible paints for us a very different picture in which "the vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives."1 Corinthians 1:30 "Jesus Christ is made unto us … righteousness."Romans 5:18 "By the obedience of one (Our Lord Himself) shall many be made righteous."1 John 1:7 "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."Purgatory is not found in the Bible. There is no future wrath for justified sinners.Romans 5:9 "Being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."You can be saved now and have full assurance of faith in the certainty that you know you have eternal life. You require no priest but Christ alone (Hebrews 4:15). You require no sacrifice but Christ alone (1 John 1:7). You require no mediator but Christ alone (1 Timothy 2:5).The Pope’s "bad news" points you to Purgatory – a non-existent place! The Lord Jesus Christ’s good news (or gospel) points you to Paradise by simple faith in Himself. Good news indeed!Remember what Peter said in Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."Be warned! Rome's Catholicism is not Christian. THE ASSURANCE OF SALVATION IS USURPED BY ROMAN CATHOLICISM!http://www.ianpaisley.org/tiara.asp

well I bet your finger hurts one that one.lets start on inter-mediation well don't ask for brother jim to pray for me.that would be inter-mediation,

j-bird you never answerd my??? look at my post.

Greenquality wrote:How can you ask "have you been born again" apart from beliving in Christ? j-bird or apart from the sinner prayer. or apart from Confessing Christ as Lord Saviour!or apart from reptance!this is the one

Greenquality and J-Bird cease from this. This is no place for provococation or unchecked emotions.This thread will be locked.