How many People struggle with Prayer , Prayer 101

I am one who is not a consistant prayer, I sometimes ask people to pray for me to pray as I am in such a mess. How do people pray here. This is a very personal issue. I find I get attacked most when I pray least.How did you start your prayer life. I think one of the things was Katherine Kuhlmen when she said that you say god to intervene, intervene, intervene. I am not joking when I say I used to fall asleep in prayer meetings when people used to recount things bly from the news. I heard once that Queen Victoria never used to let her subjects pray about the news. I think this maybe dumb but the book Perelandra and Clay Mcleans series on prayer and there is loads of other things such as Jonathan Edwards book on pryer and Dwight L Moodys book on prayer have helped me. To me my prayer life is a miracle for someone who used to only pray if things got losted to someone who thinks of it as a love relationship and cant wait to pray and then to my dry period which is now when I am finding it very hard to pray and want to confess my sins before him but do not know how or to someone. I think the screwtape letters helped me aswell. How many people pray when they are really tired, from work that for me is the hardest time to pray or when you are underneath the devils attack and cannot do anything. What is prayer ? Why are we so adverse to prayer anyway I am, I think there are times in my life or a time in my life when I just dont want to pray it is like there is loads of anger and I dont know what to do with it.What are peoples favorite books on prayer.Why dont i pray more. What stops us from praying Do any of you have long prayer lists, how on earth do you deal with praying for all those people at once. What miracles have you seen from prayer.Jesus says he made the temple a house of prayer but you have made it a den of thieves Are houses temples of prayer I am still delving into a big subject here Dom

I struggle with prayer, I think most people do. But I believe we must persist. I get up early (usually in the middle of the night) to pray and I find the devil saying things like; 'you're prayers are no good, the same stuff each night' and 'Why bother you're a rubbish prayer' and I think, wow, not only is the devil afraid of me praying - why else would he try to stop me - but I also think, the God of the whole universe is interested in my weak ramblings, and I get the picture of a toddler babbling to his mum and she's made up and encouraging him even though he is making no real sense.We learn to pray by praying, we may not feel we are any good but God can use the little we offer and turn it into something great (think of the boy who gave five loaves and two small fish).Sometimes God leads us into the wilderness to get rid of the old self, the moaning me who looks back at what Egypt had to offer. We must persist in following Him and keep on with prayer and eventually there will be a breakthrough."The devil trembles when he sees the weakest Christian on his knees"

How did you start your prayer life. Here is where it starts, believing this with all your heart...But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him. (Psalms 4:3)In Christ,Ron

Hi Deltadom,Here's an excellent message on prayer. http://www.worldinvisible.com/avlib/aud_player_ch.mv?aud_id=278It's by Bro. Ernest O'Neill, and it has some very practical teaching on how to begin a powerful prayer-life. I have found it to be very helpful and I'm sure you will too.Be blessed!

I believe this is a great discussion because this is just not trying to push my view point, but this topic could be an encouragement to all those who struggle in prayer and yet really want to pray! Prayer can be the same old each morning IF we let it be just that. I find it better to change the way I begin sometimes...my devotions. We each have to be sensitive.... I find way to many christians making their devotions a formula...how they start and how they end.Tozer has compiled a book on his favorite mystics which is a good devotional before prayer or reading Ravenhills books... We have to keep the fires burning HOT to pray hot. I believe we should try to be in a state of prayer before bed to wake up in the same state... YES prayer is hard....praise God for it!

Go to matt ch6 ver 5-15 read , ((((Then pray in the manner which the The Lord is showing you in ver 9))))) Your Father knoweth what thing's ye have need of,before ye ask Him..

This thread could be really good and so much better than debating over tounges and once saved always... I hope everyone would answer honestly laying down all pride. There is only a couple people who have answered this post the way it was intended.

I too struggle with the zeal for prayer. I think it is important that we acknowledge what an amazing opportunity we have in prayer. We get to make known what is on our hearts to the creator of the universe, wow! I think we all can remember meeting some "famous" person, and stumbling for words, but we get to converse with the Lord. I think keeping this in the back of our mind shows what an amazing God we have! I will swallow my pride and say that I feel I get lazy sometimes when I pray. But, when I devote thought, energy, and what is on my heart, that is when I feel the Lord hears my prayers instead of feeling them bounce down off the ceiling. Peace and Grace,Joel

Almost hate to keep harping at this but, do try a search here on prayer. There is just a tremendous resource that I am sure will be helpful to everyone and anyone.Prayer is a battle often times, maybe most of the time and any number of reasons for that. Sometimes a struggle to start, a struggle to stay, quieting the mind, subduing the flesh, being still, silent even...But even in recent days have found the same as mentioned here. I must be in prayer, upon awakening or forget it. The marked difference as the day progress's, it is sheer foolishness. Will get by alright and the prayer is still 'ceaseless' in the right sense, but the closet is a must, if I neglect that, I have betrayed the Lord His opportunity and my own possibilities of being of any use to Him.But it is not duty. And it is not rote. It is a compelling and a must, a desire and thus far an understanding, even if difficult to express.I know this is towards the question "Do you struggle to pray?" Yes and no would be the reply. Generally it amounts to rebellion and a denying of what the Holy Spirit is calling to. I think we know it deep down inside, the promptings and calm drawing that is never coerced. There are those times when I choose to go ahead and do that which is more pleasing in the moment, to read Scripture or even to come here first and glean or to trick myself into believing that is what I think I am doing. When I know the prompting is to be on my face. We can be quite clever in our choosing even while recognizing or subduing that which we know is there. Still fall into the trap.Mostly though, would say the only method is not one. Just to begin. To ask. Where to go? Where to start? What is the Lords thought? Sometimes it is to read scripture and pray or some bits of a book or devotional, what have you. But always keeping the thoughts towards the Lord and attentive to His leading. To stop where you sense to and just pray silently, drawing out things, people, places, concerns ... It's endless. I just cannot fathom how we could every exhaust our praying. One of the most important is to get the chattering of the mind under control and that takes work. How often do you find yourself going off on a tangent, peaching whole sermons in your head and suddenly realizing that you are not talking to anyone but yourself? I still do it often enough and it will dawn on me, ah here I am bound up in my own thoughts and proscriptions. The difference between 'saying' prayers and praying. Praying to God and actually longing to hear from Him. Here is another, simple request; "I don't want to hear myself" and then be silent. Pouring out your heart without words, groaning in the Spirit.This is a vast topic, no it's is not a topic, it is life and blood and soul and spirit. It is a crushing and an exposure of the innermost substance of ourselves. Nothing is hidden and we know it and feel it and mourn for the sins and the omissions and the displeasing elements to the Lord. There has been times when the Lords hand was so heavy, not even in a necessarily specific item or area that I would have thought there would be nothing left, just dust back to the earth. Sounds extreme but have no other way of expressing it. Groaning for this world and it's inhabitants, bound up in an endless falsehood. For the strife and envy and slanderous, anger, hostility towards God and His creation and His love. For the same things that creep up even here in the members that participate on this forum. For my own folly and foolishness in attempting to hold to just some order and contemplation. And failing by doing the exact same thing.You got me going now... It is immense. It is often a warfare with the very demons of hell though they may be far from your conscience mind. Times when a creeping thought from the pit will attempt to intervene amidst praying, the audacity, it's amazing. Surely that in itself sounds super spiritual but it is so. What is it besides our own flesh that would make us reluctant to pray? Why is it that we really don't believe in it's effectual working and the power inherent that causes us to not do it? The subtle "Oh what's the worth in it?" Not something you would say out loud, but it's there, underneath all the coverings and rationality. If there wasn't something to it, why the struggle?There is also great, tremendous times of unspeakable peace and would say that any combination of all these things is possible. Am finding that the Lord is just as He said He is; Beyond our thoughts and our programmed responses and imaginations. Unpredictable. That is the joy of discovery and anticipation that awaits every moment of true praying.Just touching the tip of the whole thing here.

I was telling my class the other day that one thing that sometimes keeps me praying harder is the knowledge of what satan is duing.... The enemey is trying to destroy my WIFE, he is trying to destroy my DAUGHTERS, he is trying to destroy my FAMILY, The enemey is trying to destroy ME, he is trying to destroy my CHURCH!!!!IF this wont get us praying nothing will!!!

I can understand this Dom

The family member in the home who skips prayer has given the enemy an open door to come into the home!!

A prayer testimonyHi friends, I have a personal testimony regarding prayer. Since I gave my life to Lord Jesus a little less than 4 years ago, ever since then I was seeking to have a true prayer life. I knew that if I wanted to spend a relationship with our Father, then I have to come to Him in prayer everyday, sharing my heart with Him. I did not want just a 15 minute prayer life because it just seemed very shallow and religious. My reasoning was, If I go to visit someone I love everyday, I don’t want to just spend 15 minuets everyday; I want to spend time and enjoy my time with that person, so it may take 1 hour or maybe even more.So, I decided that this is what I will do everyday. The problem was that I just could not do it consistently. Every time I failed, I felt like I let our Father down and I knew I was a failure as a Christian. I decided to listen to sermons regarding prayer, read books regarding prayer and looked for any kind of spiritual guidance in this matter. I made a schedule everyday, tried to discipline myself and many other things so I can have success in prayer. Guess what, after all this effort of learning and planning, I still failed. I asked our Lord “why Lord, why am I failing in this area? Am I living in some kind of sin? Please, reveal it to me, whatever it is?” I know that any good thing His children ask, He will give. I know that asking our Lord for a prayer life is a very good thing so I knew that He will deliver me from this issue I was having. I also came to this one understanding. There is nothing more I can do on my own to have a prayer life because I tried it all and all of them failed. I learned that only our Lord Jesus can give me victory in this (a true prayer life). On December 31, 2005 I said, here I go again Lord, please help me to have a prayer life, this is the most important thing I seek; how is it possible for me to be your Child without a prayer life. That night, our Lord gave me this message from David wilkerson (The title of the message is Christ-The Searcher of Mens Hearts. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3011 )I downloaded this message to my computer before that day. I did not even know this message had anything to do with prayer. I just decided to listen to a sermon that night and this is what I listened. It was our Lord’s message to me. In this sermon, pastor Wilkerson talks about the importiance of prayer and a few other things regarding it.Guess what friends, God answered my prayer that day. He brought me to that wonderful time of prayer everyday. I thank Him everyday because I know without a doubt that it is our Lord who gives me the desire to come to Him everyday in prayer. Thank You Lord Jesus for this gift.HE IS SO WONDERFUL AND AMAZING, ALL GLORY AND PRAISE TO HIM. Arun1Th 5:18\tIn every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

This is a topic worthy of discussion and contemplation.I have spent a long time struggling with prayer and developing a consistent, vital prayer life.Praise God for brother Arun's testimony! I can attest to the same fact, the our prayers must originate in God. Just like a preacher must get his sermon from the Father of Lights, Who gives every good and perfect gift, so must the pray-er get his prayer from God Himself. Jesus is the true Vine, and we can do nothing, including pray, without Him (John 14:5).Art Katz mentions this principle in Preaching-A Sacred Responsibility Part 2 https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10810One book that really affected my prayer life was "With Christ in the School of Prayer" by Andrew Murray. I would definitely recommend it to you. Also, check out David Smithers's sermon, Extreme Prayer, https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2888 And there is a great website with writings by Finney, E.M. Bounds, R.A. Torrey (a partner of D.L. Moody) and more that may be of help to you in studying prayer: www.oldlandmarks.com. But as has been said, you have to pray in order to truly learn prayer. You have to get into relationship with the Lover of your soul. It's hard because the flesh will fight against your spiritual desires (Galatians 5:17, 1 Peter 2:14), and the powers of darkness will do whatever they can to stop you from communing with God. Don't be discouraged! You can conquer through Him Who loves you (Romans 8:37), and triumph in Christ (2 Corinthians 2:14). A vibrant prayer life is another of the blessings that Christ purchased for us.I come from a Catholic background, so I can tell you the difference between "saying prayers" (and not even in your own words) and praying.MeAgain, thanks for your wise and powerful words.I hope I said something of value. If nothing else, the Word of God is true and worth your attention.There are lots of resources (believe me, I spent plenty of time trying to learn to pray, drawing from other men's wells), but the best thing to do is get into your Bible and hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church.Your brother in the struggle,D.

"Put the people to praying"This is very encouarging to me. To see this being discussed, I pray that we will keep at it as an encouragement to each other.Saints, there is so many repercussions to this. The importance of this matter. So many other difficulties are resolved by just being constant in prayer. Do read up on the past saints, you don't necessarly have to imitate them as much as they will rub off on you. For some, by all means do imitate if that will get you going.As others have pointed out, it can be different for everyone and like most things in this walk it is often at the end of trying everything and coming to a complete end of oursleves that we begin to find. Regardless, go on through with it, whatever it takes. I am becoming convinced it is of the highest order and a mighty noble thing to fervently pray and wage war with principalities and powers, to conquer ones self and to die on a thousand hills for the Captain of our souls.

Discipline is so important, we need it in every aspect of our lives. Prayer discipline can be more than the same hour or so each day, these are good of course, we should get up early and start off our day in prayer and the bible, and end our day in thanks too, but I find that even if i have 'done my prayer time today' that there comes a space in the day when I hear God's still small voice suggesting 'you have a spare hour now, are you going to give it to me?' sometimes I do, sometimes I get distracted and don't.But that is discipline too, to obey when He calls. Like Annie said earlier on, our prayer life is ongoing, not just an hour here or there, but throughout the day.So, try not to be so busy so that we can listen to Him, He will guide our paths.(just to throw a cat in with the pigeons... getting rid of the TV does give us more free time to hear Him and to get close to Him ;-) ) Ste

Does anybody find that how much you have read the bible, you can pray alot easier and do you find that sin gets in the way of praying. Like david was stopped from praying and god needed to deal with it.like today I bought something which i shouldnt have. I feel such a failure at prayer.

Our Father,Who art in heavenBecause Of Jesus Christ we Can call Upon God as Father,In the old testatment the people of God did not dare to adress God in prayer with the intimate name of Father .Only threw the cross,for remission of sins,and by the blood of The Lamb. we can speak to TO the Father .......( Hallowed be thy name,Thy Kingdom come)......(Thy will be done in earth,as it is in heaven).....We pray for Gods will for all those ,who are in need of Him,we pray for Gods kingdom to Come.......(Give us this day our daily, bread)........,Matt4:4 "Man shall not live by bread alone,But by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God......(Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us)..........This is given as a reminder that we are all sinners,we must constanly ask God to forgive us,very often we do not see our sins,or even feel that we are sinners.Apostle paul reminds us" If we say we have no sin,we deceive ourselves."Any virtue we may have proceeds from God." IF we are Loving,it's because God loved us first"....If we are merciful,it is because God is merciful with us.......(Read the great debt)matt18:23-35.Our Lord teaches us that we should extend the same Mercy to those who are indebted to Us........(And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:)......" my parents were led captive,from the Garden of Eden,Into this land of thorns,deceived by satan.He proved himself a liar,trying to trick me,into cherishing and loving this wicked earth,A dwelling-place of chastisement...Blessed is He Who comes to set prisoners free And to destory the one who took us captive!

Let me open up a little... Years ago I used to make time a idol in prayer... I used to run out the clock just to say to self I prayed 2 hours...I actually wouldnt stop praying until my watch would strike the 2 hour mark. Boy, did I struggle!!! A saint told me I was making time an idol. Paul Ravenhill said prayer isnt measured by time but by the intensity! A big weight left me because I was in bondage.

the stupid thing is i still struglle with this. I think we do need set boundaries and goals yet I do not believe us or me in bondage

deltadom wrote:Does anybody find that how much you have read the bible, you can pray alot easier and do you find that sin gets in the way of praying....I feel such a failure at prayer. I find reading the Word of God most important to establishing or re-establishing a prayer life.Recently I dug a whole load of weeds out of the ground. The ground was hard as it is summer here in Australia, the ground is parched badly. It was littered with rocks underneath and the roots of some weeds went very deep and took some effort to pull out. I hate to say it but that represents my heart as well. The word waters the ground, softens it but also digs in and turns it over. The spirit assisted me in uprooting some weeds. These weeds were burdens over the last 10 years that had taken me from 2-3 hours of prayer daily to nothing at all. Sin gets in the way of prayer!Do not take heed to the feeling of failure. If you cannot find the words to pray, pray only that the Lord move you by His Spirit to pray what He wants you to pray. That is enough.Remember He expects us to be as little children so I think it is important to keep prayer simple.Pray scripture that impacts you.2-3 hours of machine gun prayer is nothing compared to someone praying exactly what the Spirit wants them to pray. Less words more impact. You could call it laser guided prayer I guess.

That the Lord would grant me the ability to convey in words ...Prayer is the workshop of the soul. Rising up early to meet with the Creator of the Universe. The privilege! The wonder of it all. Find it a bit strange the struggle to make expression at the moment, considering "this one thing I do" is to pray.But why? By commandant or strictly obedience, lovingly at that? Duty? To 'get things' or to plead a cause, a compulsion of thought as to how I might like to see things done? Or is it something entirely foreign to the natural but an irresistible drawing, deep calling to deep?To be sure, it is the latter. Have expressed it this way before; It's not a 'have to' but a 'get to'. That the Lord might draw more of us in this way. It may be of some help I am beginning to think that a part of the 'struggle' to begin is only in having a wrong proscription, a wrong concentration, too many notions going in.Sometimes I think I can be a bit too concerned about giving off a wrong impression. Let me throw caution to the wind and just open up my heart to you all here. The Lord is gracious indeed that He began quite early on after drawing me out of the pit of depravity that I put myself in to begin awakening me early in the morning. Quite a bit of this mentioned in other postings, the whole 'phenomenon' of "4:00" am. Need to redress that as time of reflection has altered my own perceptions of this, namely that it wasn't for everyone, would change that to it is available to anyone, but I digress.Even typing these words finds this morning greatly warmed by the Lords slight manifest Presence as I am want to put it. This is in part what I had alluded to earlier in the "Unpredictableness' of the Lord. Surely He changes not, not that, but the expectations, the wonder and awe of this mighty calling, to commune with the Highest, all powerful, all knowing, loving and merciful, holy, fearful, awful and awesome creator of the universe ...And He beckons us to come, Jesus our High Priest, and not to forget His intercession for us; Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Note this!*Can still recall the first impressions of rising early, practically unconcerned, even half aware of the particular hour, at the time had no idea there were many a past saint that found this 4:00 calling. In the quiet, and alone with God's word, not understanding anything in the sense of 'what or how' to pray, but just in sheer simplicity to ask "What is it that I am to do, Lord?" And it wasn't a matter of a particular passage of concentration and it couldn't have been a louder inner voice if it was audible, the return just as simple; "Follow Me""Where"? That rather normal, natural reasoning, that wants to consider everything first, wants to know where it's going and when and what it will cost me and whether or not it's 'pleasant' ...My, I am finding this a peculiar paradox this morning. To be honest quite often I find the compulsion to write out of praying and often do so, it varies from getting a bit excited and over zealous even to the opposite, not really wanting to write and feeling compelled to do so. Again, no method, it's a bounding between the keyboard and the floor board.There is something that goes far beyond our emotions, our circumstances, our perceptions and thoughts. Our difficulties and excitabilities, even our 'feeling's' if I might penetrate further into those mysterious realms. To dismiss them is folly, to be ruled by them a greater folly. But they are given. Pain still hurts. Peace is truly wonderful. God's peace that passes all understanding ... Needs no explanation and fails at an expression. If you have tasted it there is nothing by way of comparison. And for all this the deeper, truer, purer aspect that comes forth is but;Worship.Praise and worship. Worship and praise. It is not necessarily something that is worked up though I suppose that it can be and still be true and right. The difference perhaps is when it comes forth by way of gratitude of the Spirit, the substance of the Holy Spirit and the saint that has His indwelling. It is that best word definition; "Oh"! "Oh my soul"! Or maybe the ultimate expression;Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.Saints, to get to the point of nothing matters, nothing but the essence of the Lords telling us of "how" to pray;Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.Is this truly the echo of our hearts? It is mine. Be it revival, which I pray still comes, that the Lord show Himself strong and silence many a mere mans opinion, even some well intentioned men. To humble us all to realize His intentions and our individual orders even as collectively we are under one Head and one Captain; "What is that to you? You follow me." Be it the glorious end and yes, I frankly in one aspect could care less how that comes to pass. Don't get me wrong, it is not to dismiss anything by way of eschatology, we ought to be on guard and watchful ..... P r a y e r f u l as we have been instructed. It is often frankly a tiring thing, being a stranger on this wonderful creation gone wrong, the creation groans, I groan. The best of 'happiness' fleeting and stained, sorrowful. Confusion abounds as men drive themselves in circles rarely considering anything other than themselves, death is a 'morbid' concept and too painful to run past the thoughts, to be taken into consideration, always something for another day ... The god of this world has blinded...But alas for all that, even our suffering, our "Light", (Mark that!) "affliction". Recognize just what it is we are after, Who it is who has taken hold of us. Oh saints, Ravenhill was exacting; "It is a noble thing to be a Christian my Brethren"! It is all worth it to a degree that we do not even realize. Every gut wrenching tear. Every difficulty and struggle. Every groan. Every praise. Every last bit of it.Children. Let us go on to perfection. Pray always in all manner with all supplications. Pour yourself out. Allow the Lord to break you. It's painful yes. But it produces. You can suffer for His sake. You can find wisdom and strength in time of need. You can say with Job; "Though He slay me, yet will I worship Him"! You can come to a place where you will not beg off the Lords dealing with you, despite the flesh crying for it to stop, "I cannot take anymore, Lord, stop it please" and find yourself crying instead; "Lord, finish the work!". It can be done. You can go on and you can go through. The Lord well knows your frame and He well knows precisely what He is doing. You will find you can indeed endure the Lords seasons of silence as it is seemingly. You will find that you can indeed tolerate many things, being 'offended' will lose it's sting. You can be misunderstood and not feel smug about it. You can lose your life and find it. You can die to many things. You can take insults and not feel compelled to defend everything. If you know the Truth, the Truth will do it's own defending. You can learn to put up with things and be silent about it. You can indeed love your 'enemies' and not have to fake it. You can learn to wait on the Lord, be it days on end or longer. You can to learn to muse and to contemplate and to slow down! Something that many that traverse here need to do, you are caught up in the worlds way of doing things and flip through thoughts and serious contemplations like looking for a good restaurant to eat at. Some of you need to go on a diet of some healthy food or to look at it like a dinner of liver, something that takes some chewing.Had to get that in here, it just keeps coming to the surface and there is deeper wells to be found around these parts, go down into them, you will not regret it.Oh my soul ... There is no nice summary here and still it is but the beginning of this vast, unending substance. Prayer is the Christians lifeblood, it's oxygen, it's very power and keeping the new man alive. May the Holy Spirit of God awaken us to our privilege and our incredible high calling.To commune with the creator of the universe ...It is staggering to muse on that!And missed in this pouring out and not last nor overlooked...Thankfulness. Gratitude. It is a 'byproduct' in one sense and just as 'natural' as worship. It comes forth as well, not worked up but spilling forth .. Would like to think if we are going on with the Lord that to cut us open some things will bleed out of us;Forgiveness.Thankfulness.Gratitude and appreciation.Gods love.Worship and Praise.Honesty.Hope.Faith.Trust.Love for the Brethren. Concern for the lost.A sincere willingness to lose everything for Jesus' sake.Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Go on saints. Go to prayer. Unburden yourself in all honesty before the Lord. Do it early and do it often. Lose yourself in this high calling. Time will stand still or fly by before you notice it. More things have I learned by prayer than none other. If this is all but to prime the pump of our hearts...We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: Col 1:3-6Psa 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Still yet there is so much more. Prayer and the Word. The Word and prayer, inseparable entities.Something that we dare not overlook, but for now sufficent to go back to the floor of the heart and pray for us all.*(Another note of interest. "I pray" comes up no less than 256 times in a quick search ...)

I see prayer in two aspects.In a marriage, there are atleast 2 things that are vital, communication and intimacy. You would need to have good ongoing communication and you would need the time alone. I think in prayer we have what I call "the walk of prayer." Which is your daily, non-stop communication with God. Then you need to have the time when you are intimatly alone with God. When it is just you and Him and all other things are blocked out ie your prayer closet.

I agree, we cant sit with Jesus all day but we can walk with Him all day.

I really need to quit posting so early in the morning, apologies for the long rambling earlier.Here is some better expressions that may benefit others, some excerpts perhaps from time to time;Prayer, true prayer, does not allow us to deceive ourselves. It relaxes the tension of our self-inflation. It produces a clearness of spiritual vision. Searching with a judgment that begins at the house of God, it ceases not to explore with His light our own soul. If the Lord is our health He may need to act on many men, or many moods, as a lowering medicine. At His coming our self-confidence is shaken. Our robust confidence, even in grace, is destroyed. The pillars of our house tremble, as if they were ivy-covered in a searching wind. Our lusty faith is refined, by what may be a painful process, into a subtler and more penetrating kind; and its outward effect is for the time impaired, though in the end it is increased. The effect of the prayer which admits God into the recesses of the soul is to destroy that spiritual density, not to say stupidity, which made our religion cheery or vigorous because it knew no better, and which was the condition of getting many obvious things done, and producing palpable effect on the order of the day. There are fervent prayers which, by making people feel good, may do no more than foster the delusion that natural vigour or robust religion, when flushed enough, can do the work of the kingdom of God. There is a certain egoist self-confidence which is increased by the more elementary forms of religion, which upholds us in much of our contact with men, and which even secures us an influence with them. But the influence is one of impression rather than permeation, it overbears rather than converts, and it inflames rather than inspires. P.T. Forsyth on prayer

When has been the hardest time for you to pray. How has god delivered you from thatWhat has been your most fantastic prayer time, I need encouragement I am finding it really hard to pray at the moment. The hardest time i think is now and when I was ill for four months. After god released me but there has been many times since then that has been mine

RESOLVE THAT WHEREVER YOU ARE, YOU WILL PRAYPrayer is the life-breath of a man's soul. Without it, we may have a name to live, and be counted Christians; but we are dead in the sight of God. The feeling that we must cry to God for mercy and peace is a mark of salvation; and the habit of spreading before Him our soul's needs is an evidence that we have the spirit of adoption. And prayer is the appointed way to obtain the relief of our spiritual necessities. It opens the treasury, and sets the fountain flowing. If we don't have, it is because we don't ask.Prayer is the way to procure the outpouring of the Spirit upon our hearts. Jesus has promised the Holy Spirit, the Comforter. He is ready to come down with all His precious gifts, renewing, sanctifying, purifying, strengthening, cheering, encouraging, enlightening, teaching, directing, guiding, into all truth. But then He waits to be asked.And here it is, I say it with sorrow, here it is that men fall short so miserably. Few indeed are to be found who pray: there are many who go down on their knees, and say a form perhaps, but few who pray; few who cry out to God, few who call on the Lord, few who seek as if they wanted to find, few who knock as if they hungered and thirsted, few who wrestle, few who strive with God earnestly for an answer, few who give Him no rest, few who continue in prayer, few who pray always without ceasing and do not grow weak. Yes: few pray! It is just one of the things assumed as a matter of course, but seldom practiced; a thing which is everybody's business, but in fact hardly anybody performs.Young men, believe me, if your soul is to be saved, you must pray. God has no speechless children. If you are to resist the world, the flesh, and the devil, you must pray: it is in vain to look for strength in the hour of trial, if it has not been sought for. You may be thrown in with those who never do it, you may have to sleep in the same room with someone who never asks anything of God, still, mark my words, you must pray.I can believe that you find it difficult to do, difficulties about opportunities to pray, and times to pray, and places to pray. I dare not lay down too strict rules on such points as these. I leave them to your own conscience. You must be guided by circumstances. Our Lord Jesus Christ prayed on a mountain; Isaac prayed in the fields; Hezekiah turned his face to the wall as he lay upon his bed; Daniel prayed by the riverside; Peter, the Apostle, on the housetop. I have heard of young men praying in stables and haylofts. All that I contend for is this, you must know what it is to "go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen" (Matthew 6:6). There must be stated times when you must speak to God face to face, you must every day have your times for prayer--You must pray.Without this, all my advice and counsel is useless. This is that piece of spiritual armor which Paul names last in his list, in Ephesians 6, but it is in truth that is first in value and importance. This is that meat which you must eat daily, if you would travel safely through the wilderness of this life. It is only in the strength of this that you will get onward towards the mountain of God. I have heard it said that some people who grind metal sometimes wear a magnetic mouthpiece at their work, which catches all the fine metal dust that flies around them, prevents it from entering their lungs, and so saves their lives. Prayer is the mouthpiece that you must wear continually, or else you will never work uninjured by the unhealthy atmosphere of this sinful world. You must pray.Young men, be sure no time is so well spent as that which a man spends on his knees. Make time for this, whatever your situation may be. Think of David, King of Israel: what does be say? "Evening, morning and noon I cry out in distress, and he hears my voice" (Psalm 55:17). Think of Daniel. He had all the business of a kingdom on his hands; yet he prayed three times a day. See there the secret of his safety in wicked Babylon. Think of Solomon. He begins his reign with prayer for help and assistance, and hence his wonderful prosperity. Think of Nehemiah. He could find time to pray to the God of heaven, even when standing in the presence of his master, Artaxerxes. Think of the example these good men have left you, and go and do likewise.Oh that the Lord may give you all the spirit of grace and supplication! "Have you not just called to me: 'My Father, my friend from my youth'" (Jeremiah 3:4). Gladly would I consent to the fact that all of this message should be forgotten, if only this doctrine of the importance of prayer might be impressed on your hearts.J.C. Ryle

I don't know how many of you have the television station Total Living Network, but currently they are running a "Word Pictures" mini-series on growing in our love for the unseen Christ.I only saw one episode so far (yesterday) and the two topics that will be covered throughout the series are prayer and time in the word as the ways to get closer to God and love Him more.In yesterday's episode, they were defining true biblical prayer. They defined it (with the help of John Bunyan) as a "sincere, sensible, affectionate pouring out of the soul to God through Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit, asking for such things as God has promised in His word, for the good of the Church [corporate and individual], in submission (with faith in the will of God)."They went into detail about each part of this definition with the aim of equipping the saints to truly pray in a biblical, prevailing way.R.A. Torrey (companion to D.L. Moody) and John Bunyan were quoted at length more than once, and the scriptures were constantly referred to.I highly recommend it, from what I have seen so far, and from some past "Word Picture" shows I have seen."Word Pictures" videos can be found at www.crosstv.com.D.

To cultivate the ceaseless spirit of prayer, use more frequent acts of prayer. To learn to pray with freedom, force yourself to pray. The great liberty begins in necessity. Do not say, "I cannot pray, I am not in the spirit." Pray till you are in the spirit. Think of analogies from lower levels. Sometimes when you need rest most you are too restless to lie down and take it. Then compel yourself to lie down, and to lie still. Often in ten minutes the compulsion fades into consent, and you sleep, and rise a new man. Again, it is often hard enough to take up the task which in half an hour you enjoy. It is often against the grain to turn out of an evening to meet the friends you promised. But once you are in their midst you are in your element. Sometimes, again, you say, "I will not go to church. I do not feel that way." That is where the habit of an ordered religious life comes in aid. Religion is the last region for chance desires. Do it as a duty, and it may open out as a blessing. Omit it, and you may miss the one thing that would have made an eternal difference. You stroll instead, and return with nothing but appetite--when you might have come back with an inspiration. Compel yourself to meet your God as you would meet your promises, your obligations, your fellow men. So if you are averse to pray, pray the more. Do not call it lip-service. That is not the lip-service God disowns. It is His Spirit acting in your self-coercive will, only not yet in your heart. What is unwelcome to God is lip-service which is untroubled at not being more. As appetite comes with eating, so prayer with praying. Our hearts learn the language of the lips. Compel yourself often to shape on your lips the detailed needs of your soul. It is not needful to inform God, but to deepen you, to inform yourself before God, to enrich that intimacy with ourself which is so necessary to answer the intimacy of God. To common sense the fact that God knows all we need, and wills us all good, the fact of His infinite Fatherhood, is a reason for not praying. Why tell Him what He knows? Why ask what He is more than willing to give? But to Christian faith and to spiritual reason it is just the other way. Asking is polar cooperation. Jesus turned the fact to a use exactly the contrary of its deistic sense. He made the all-knowing Fatherhood the ground of true prayer. We do not ask as beggars but as children. Petition is not mere receptivity, nor is it mere pressure; it is filial reciprocity. Love loves to be told what it knows already. Every lover knows that. It wants to be asked for what it longs to give. And that is the principle of prayer to the all-knowing Love. As God knows all, you may reckon that your brief and humble prayer will be understood (Matt. vi. 8). It will be taken up into the intercession of the Spirit stripped of its dross, its inadequacy made good, and presented as prayer should be. That is praying in the Holy Ghost. Where should you carry your burden but to the Father, where Christ took the burden of all the world? We tell God, the heart searcher, our heavy thoughts to escape from brooding over them. "When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, Thou knewest my path." (Ps. cxlii. 3). So Paul says the Spirit intercedes for us and gives our broken prayer divine effect (Rom. viii. 26). To be sure of God's sympathy is to be inspired to prayer, where His mere knowledge would crush it. There is no father who would be satisfied that his son should take everything and ask for nothing. It would be thankless. To cease asking is to cease to be grateful. And what kills petition kills praise. Go into your chamber, shut the door, and cultivate the habit of praying audibly. Write prayers and burn them. Formulate your soul. Pay no attention to literary form, only to spiritual reality. Read a passage of Scripture and then sit down and turn it into prayer, written or spoken. Learn to be particular, specific, and detailed in your prayer so long as you are not trivial. General prayers, literary prayers, and stately phrases are, for private prayer, traps and sops to the soul. To formulate your soul is one valuable means to escape formalizing it. This is the best, the wholesome, kind of self-examination. Speaking with God discovers us safely to ourselves We "find" ourselves, come to ourselves, in the Spirit. Face your special weaknesses and sins before God. Force yourself to say to God exactly where you are wrong. When anything goes wrong, do not ask to have it set right, without asking in prayer what is was in you that made it go wrong. It is somewhat fruitless to ask for a general grace to help specific flaws, sins, trials, and griefs. Let prayer be concrete, actual, a direct product of life's real experiences. Pray as your actual self, not as some fancied saint. Let it be closely relevant to your real situation. Pray without ceasing in this sense. Pray without a break between your prayer and your life. Pray so that there is a real continuity between your prayer and your whole actual life. But I will bear round upon this point again immediately. Meantime, let me say this. Do not allow your practice in prayer to be arrested by scientific or philosophic considerations as to how answer is possible. That is a valuable subject for discussion, but it is not entitled to control our practice. Faith is at least as essential to the soul as science, and it has a foundation more independent. And prayer is not only a necessity of faith, it is faith itself in action. Criticism of prayer dissolves in the experience of it. When the soul is at close quarters with God it becomes enlarged enough to hold together in harmony things that oppose, and to have room for harmonious contraries. For instance: God, of course, is always working for His Will and Kingdom. But man is bound to pray for its coming, while it is coming all the time. Christ laid stress on prayer as a necessary means of bringing the Kingdom to pass. And it cannot come without our praying. Why? Because its coming is the prayerful frame of soul. So again with God's freedom. It is absolute. But it reckons on ours. Our prayer does not force His hand; it answers His freedom in kind. We are never so active and free as in prayer to an absolutely free God. We share His freedom when we are "in Christ."P.T Forsyth

[i]"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not"[/i]
(Jer. 33:3).

[u]Theological Prayers[/u]

Prayer is for the religious life what original research is for science--by it we get direct contact with reality. The soul is brought into union with its own vaster nature--God. Therefore, also, we must use the Bible as an original; for, indeed, the Bible is the most copious spring of prayer, and of power, and of range. If we learn to pray from the Bible, and avoid a mere cento of its phrases, we shall cultivate in our prayer the large humane note of a universal gospel. Let us nurse our prayer on our study of our Bible; and let us, therefore, not be too afraid of theological prayer. True Christian prayer must have theology in it; no less than true theology must have prayer in it and must be capable of being prayed. 'Your theology is too difficult,' said Charles V to the Reformers; 'it cannot be understood without much prayer.' Yes, that is our arduous puritan way. Prayer and theology must interpenetrate to keep each other great, and wide, and mighty. The failure of the habit of prayer is at the root of much of our light distaste for theology.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=519]Peter Taylor Forsyth[/url]

I am flatly forever convinced that the single, solitary problem with the saints in this day, in the church, in disputes and conversations, in turmoil and irritation, in tumults and arguments, in bitterness and pride, every evil imagination under the sun and every misrepresentation of [i]The Son[/i] can be put to one thing...

Lack of true, honest, humbling prayer.

WHEN YOU PRAY
by Chip Brogden

http://www.theschoolofchrist.org/articles/pray.html

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to
pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners that they
may be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have already received
their reward" (Matthew 6:5).

Preachers are equally guilty of hypocritical long-windedness. It is
interesting to observe how differently someone prays when standing
upon a platform before others compared to how they pray in other
places. They seem to believe that the spotlight calls for certain
words and phrases to be used that they would not otherwise use. This,
too, is done for the benefit of the listeners. "Oh, he can pray such
powerful prayers!" they exclaim. But this does not mean they are
necessarily powerful with God.

Particularly in a day when prayer meetings, prayer gatherings, prayer
retreats, and prayer warfare is being emphasized, it is important to
understand what the Lord is looking for so we do not fall into a trap
of vanity. The experience of many saints seems to indicate that the
more we pray in private, the less we will pray in public. The words
will be fewer, but they will be far more weighty and valuable. One
brother was so broken before God privately that whenever he stepped
into the pulpit to pray publicly, all he could do was fall over the
lectern and weep, "Oh God!" That is the proper spirit, and how I wish
we had more of this kind of prayer.

I really Do enjoy the freshness of Chip's thinking....

And reading Leonard Ravenhill...[i]"A man may study because his brain is hungry for knowledge, even Bible knowledge. But he prays because his soul is hungry for God."[/i]

Prayer all comes down to a couple of simple questions...

How hungry are you for the presence of God in your life?

Have you so deadened your 'Holy':-D tastebuds with a counterfit sweetness that you cannot identify the Glory of His intimate communion?

Are we praying as Christ did? Do we abide in Him? Are our pleas and spirit the overflow of His spirit and pleas? Does love rule the spirit—perfect love?

I happen to be very fond of EM Bounds and his writings. Personally, I a wait the tugging of HIS,
Spirit to pray for a particular person, or in a particular area, and this is why.

I have in the past and present received requests, such as “Can you pray for me in this area or stand with me in faith for what I am praying for?” I have to say that immediately my respond to them is I will pray first to see if this is God’s will (Peace) before I can come in agreement with, You.

Watchman Nee or Lee on his website has an article on prayer. In this article when mentioning prayer he refers to it as prayer/read. This caught my attention because when you read his word, when you meditate on his word, when you allow his word to have his perfect work in you, you are praying and you are waiting for his divine revelation/answer.

Many have asked me what are you believing God for, in other words what am I asking him for. I don’t ask him for anything materialistic in my life, I just want him and more of him and his will and purposes to be accomplished. I do however stand in the gap on behalf of others, and I love it.

I am seeing my prayers answered and it is wonderful, I say that in a humbled way. It is an honor and a privilege to stand in the gap.

I agree that there are different levels of prayer and that’s the heart beat of God for each and every one of us to reach this level. I believe that the closer we are to God the closer we are to his ear, and the closer we are to his ear, the closer we are to him. His ear is attentive to the prayers of the righteous -- that’s his word. It is your faith that causes things to happen. Jesus said, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can ask this tree to move and it will obey, (hope I’m quoting it correctly).

Am I a General of intercession, no I am not, but I know where I need to be and I know that he is doing something inside of me, he is in full control. Brothers and Sister I can’t begin to tell you how much I used to struggle in this area, the area of fully surrendering to him, to his Spirit, to this incredible tugging in obedience to what he has wanted me to do and to say. It has hurt me more then it has hurt you. I used to struggle with fear and doubt, fear of the unknown doubt “Is this really you God”?, “God I need to know that this is really you”, and then he confirmed it with a witness that I know it was him, and not me.

Brothers and Sisters I am just clay in his hands literally, right now I am only clay in his hands, Oh if we could stop being afraid and allow God to have full control and to allow him to lead us and to teach us, we are all teachable but are we willing to be taught. God has had to deal with me in this area, because of my character; it has not been easy I know. But I am now in a place where I am willing to surrender whole heartily. God let your will be done. I love God more then anything and his Word!

There is something that no one can ever take away from you and that is his Word, once you grab a hold of God’s word, it will fill you, and it will teach you, it will guide you, and encourage you. It will also rebuke you when need be, and it hurts. But it also encourages and strengthens.

Many of times I have not know how to pray, what to pray for, have grabbed a hold of Gods word because at that time there was no one around that could encourage/help me, he knew what I was going through and gave me a word that brought much healing, deliverance, encouragement and strength.

I can’t quote every word that he gave me, which at this time is good because you should grab a hold of his word yourself and watch to see what he will tell you in prayer.

Quote:
Many of times I have not know how to pray, what to pray for, and have grabbed a hold of Gods word because at that time there was no one around that could encourage/help me. He knew what I was going through and gave me a word that brought much healing, deliverance, encouragement and strength.

I have quoted my own words to say this;

Had I been physically connected I would not have had to struggle with the emotions/feelings my self. There is something Beautiful about gathering together with the Saints that’s like no other. The UNITY in the Body and in the Spirit in One Accord with One Mind nothing can compare to this or take the place off.

Jesus, said when two or more gather together to pray I am in the midst -- When two or more gather together to pray I am in the midst. Yes this is so true, the power that there is in prayer and Corporate Prayer YOU MUST EXEPIRENCE THIS, things are birthed, people are changed, and problems are solved supernaturally.

I just have to say this right now, you know who you are, and you know the power that lies deep within your soul in the depth of your spirit. You know the authority in which you pray and pull down strong holes; you know that you hold the sickle in your hand. I have heard you and I dare to say that the gift is irrevocable, how long will you continue to have God wait, I need you, they need you, this new generation needs you?

[url=http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/in_touch_with_the_throne.html]In Touch with the Throne [/url]
[i][b]Some Considerations on the Prayer-Life[/b][/i]
[i]by T. Austin-Sparks[/i]

For those so interested, thought I would put this in front if you wish to read ahead.

There is so much I wish to say about this particular effort from Mr. Sparks that it is difficult to start. It may just be me and I recognize the difficulty in making a "Must read" or "[i]This is so vitally important[/i]" type of statement when there are many such things here and the variety of our present circumstances often dictate different needs for specific seasons and visa versa.

So with that bit of qualifying out of the way, I must say that even in reading the first parts of this over the course of a number of days I find so much that cut's across many lines; Everything from the dynamics of this forum, to the matters of prophecy to the upcoming conference in October. Saints, that is all within the first chapter and a bit of the second ... And further, is just the very tip of other extrapolations and considerations.

In the past, especially when the forum itself tends to get a bit agitated, speaking in a very overall sense and not as particular indictment, a plea for slowing down a bit and an attempt or a request for assimilating some very penetrating truths. T. Austin Sparks, to my mind and heart, has the great ability to bring things both 'down to earth' in one fashion while elevating the spiritual importance beyond measure, to it's rightful place. He has a balance and grasp that takes out much of the very [i]controversy[/i] that can be becoming of us, I guess I want to say that it is peaceable in the spirit of explanation even if the content is immensely challenging. If I don't stop short now, I certainly will be off rambling, this has gripped me profoundly and cannot feel but impressed to see if it might do so to others, hoping it would draw out even more thought and discussion on so vital the matter that prayer is to this life we are living.

Hope to just bring it in in small doses and see where it might lead us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[b]Chapter 1- The Divine Basis of All Acceptable Prayer[/b]

As we contemplate the great ministry of prayer, I think it would be most helpful if at the outset we were reminded of the Divine basis of all acceptable prayer. Before we come to what may be more technical we must recognize the spiritual foundation of prayer, and that has to do with the ingredients and the sacredness of the incense which was to be burnt upon the golden altar referred to in Exodus 30, verse 34 onwards.

It is not my intention to take up these ingredients for exposition, but simply to note that the Lord stipulated certain things for the sweet spices, and then made a very strong statement in relation to them: "...ye shall not make to yourselves according to the composition thereof; it shall be unto thee holy for the Lord. Whosoever shall make like unto that, to smell thereto, shall even be cut off from his people." That is the basis of all acceptable prayer. As we know, the sweet spices, the ingredients of the incense, typify the moral excellencies of the Lord Jesus: His graces, virtues, merits and worthiness. The incense is not the prayers of the saints, but the merit and worthiness of the Lord Jesus put into the prayers, mingled with the prayers, and becoming that which brings the prayers in effectiveness and acceptance to the presence of God. There is completeness here, inasmuch as the ingredients are fourfold: the completeness of the graces and virtues and moral excellencies of Christ. And then, as you notice, salt (which always speaks of preserving things in life) is to be mingled with these other ingredients, and that seems to me to suggest that even the presentation of the moral excellencies of the Lord Jesus is always to be free from merely cold formality, which means death, and must remain a living and vital thing. It is so possible for a contemplation of the Lord Jesus to become a mechanical and formal thing, something which we accept in our minds as necessary and true, so that we come mechanically upon the merits of the Lord Jesus, when the Lord wants the thing to be continuously alive. With every fresh coming to the Lord there should be a fresh appreciation in life of the Lord Jesus. The salt is to keep things from death, to keep them in life, to keep them fresh and to keep them keen, and we are required to have an abiding keenness and aliveness of appreciation of these excellencies of the Lord Jesus. If it is so, then prayer is acceptable and effectual. The salt is not one of the ingredients, but something added in, and that something is that which is incorruptible.

Then we have the very definite stipulation that nothing like this was to be made by man himself or for himself. There was to be no imitation of this, and there was to be no private and personal appropriation of it by man. It was to be held always unto the Lord and to be holy to the Lord, and an infringement of that rule meant death. As we know, on one occasion the offering of false fire resulted in judgment and death. So here we are told that if this thing were made by man, an imitation of it made for himself and for his own personal ends, he would be cut off from among his people. The moral excellencies of the Lord Jesus cannot be imitated. Man cannot have them in himself, and anything feigned is unacceptable to God. There are no excellencies, and there are no glories like those of the Lord Jesus.

Here we have God most definitely and positively saying in effect that there is a uniqueness, an exclusiveness about the character of the Lord Jesus which is unapproachable by man and altogether apart from the very best that man can make of himself. God sees in the Lord Jesus that which is not anywhere else, and for any man to come imitating the merits of the Lord Jesus means death for that man. There is no ground of approach to God in our moral glories, and it is an awful blasphemy to talk about the sacrifice and the laying down of life on the part of men for their fellow-creatures being on a par with the laying down of His life by the Lord Jesus. That is utter blasphemy, and it must come under the most utter judgment of God. No! God sees nothing equal to the moral excellencies of His Son and forbids us to try to bring anything which is an imitation of those, a man-made thing, which does not recognize the uniqueness of the Lord Jesus.

So the ground of all acceptable prayer upon which we approach the Father is that of the moral excellencies and glories, and graces, and virtues, and merits, and worthiness of the Lord Jesus. That is very simple, but it is basic, and we do have to recognize that before we can get anywhere in the matter of prayer.

Perhaps just try sitting down like a little child and talking to your Father. He cares. Psalm 103:13-14

I had read the first chapter of In Touch With the Throne several months ago, I think someone posted a clip from it here on SI (perhaps it was you Mike). Then I re-read that chapter and devoured the rest of the book also over a few days last week and I too have been greatly affected and feel a deep desire to be a part of a 'Gideon Company' that Mr. Sparks talks about it the fifth chapter, a sifted, fearless company ready for battle. I feel woefully inadequate and yet expectantly hopeful. The things that are impossible with men...

In Christ,

Ron

Thought I would bring this over from the other thread that all this started from. Ron (InTheLight) originaly brought it forth, I appologize if I have made this a bit confusing ...

[b]The Five Aspects of Prayer[/b]

Now we are able to go on with the subject of prayer itself. In the first place I want to say a little about the nature of prayer, or that which makes prayer, from its different standpoints. And while there may be many other aspects, I think we may say that prayer has five main aspects: communion, submission, petition, co-operation and conflict. Prayer is each one of these, and prayer in its fullness requires or involves all of them.

[b]Prayer as Communion[/b]

Firstly, prayer is communion, prayer is fellowship, prayer is love opening the heart to God, and that is the foundation of all true forms of prayer. We may liken it to the two main activities of our human bodies. When we speak of the activities of these physical bodies we speak of what is organic, and then of what is functional. Organic trouble is a very serious thing, but a functional trouble may not be so serious, and prayer as communion takes the place of the organic in our bodies. One part of our organic make-up is our breathing, which we call respiration. Now, you never stop to think about that! You never reason that out and say: 'Shall I take another breath?' 'Shall I breathe?' or 'How many more breaths shall I take today?' You may do that over a meal, for that is functional, but you never do it over your respiration, for that is organic. You may discuss whether you will walk, or talk, or think, and you may tell yourself that you will stop thinking, or walking, or talking. That is functional. It is controlled and deliberate, but you do not do that over your breathing. That goes on. But if your respiration should give out, your walking, talking and thinking would give out, so that respiration is basic to everything else.

And prayer as communion is in the spiritual life what respiration is in the physical. Communion with God is a sustained thing, a thing like breathing which goes on, or should go on. It differs altogether from those periodical functional activities such as feeding. Respiration is quite involuntary and not just deliberate. We may call it a habit, and a habit is something which easily eludes the full consciousness of the one who is addicted to it. We do things habitually without being aware at the time that we are doing them. When a habit is fully formed it is just an unconscious part of our procedure, and communion with God is that - something that goes on. Prayer as communion is just that: we are in touch with the Lord and we spontaneously and involuntarily open our heart to Him. That is the first foundational thing in all prayer, and that is something to which we shall have to give attention. While we never discuss the question as to whether we will breathe or not, there is such a thing as developing right breathing, and in this sense we shall have to give attention to our breathing.

I think that of all the people I ever met who exemplified this organic life in fellowship with God, Dr. F. B. Meyer was outstanding. It did not matter where he was or what the circumstances were, he would suddenly stop, perhaps in dictating a letter, or in a conversation, or in a business meeting, and just say: 'Stop a minute!' and he prayed. And that was his habit in life. He seemed at any moment to be in touch with the Lord. It was like breathing to him, and I believe it represented one of the secrets of the fruitfulness of his life and the value of his judgment in the things of the Lord. Only those who had close touch with him, especially in difficult executive meetings, knew the value of that spiritual judgment which he brought to bear upon situations, and it seemed to come to him just like that, as out from the Lord.

Well, that is prayer in its foundation. It is communion, it is fellowship and the spontaneous opening of the heart to the Lord. It is not the whole range of prayer, but it is life lived at the back of all deliberate activities, life in touch with the Lord, and it is a very, very valuable thing. All other prayer is so much more effective if we have that. It is so different from life being just a matter of prayer in emergencies, and emergencies are very often much more critical than they need be because we have to find our way back to God instead of being there. I think that very often the Lord allows emergencies to come to us in order to restore fellowship with Himself which has been lost, and in the Lord's mind the abiding fruit of such an emergency is that we should not lose that fellowship again. We should keep hold of it.

[b]Prayer as Submission[/b]

Then, secondly, prayer is submission, and here we must be aware of the possibility of a contradiction in terms. Prayer is submission. Passive inaction in what is called trust is not prayer. We have heard people speak of trust, which for them means just passivity and inaction, but it is not prayer. Submission is always active, not passive. Submission always involves the will; it does not dismiss the will. Now carefully keep hold of that. Many people think that just trustfully leaning on the Lord is submission, and their address to the Lord takes its character from such a state, but that is not prayer. Unquestioning acquiescence in things as we find them is not submission, and it is not prayer. Submission means getting into line with the Divine mind. That may mean conflict, it will almost invariably mean action, and it will bring in the volition. Prayer, from whatever standpoint you regard it, is always positive. It is never passive. Trust is another thing and does not come into the realm of prayer. Faith comes into the realm of prayer, but faith is always an active thing and never a passive thing. Faith may require a battle, and it very often does, to get to a place of rest, but the 'rest of faith' is not what we have called unquestioning acquiescence. The 'rest of faith' means that the last stage of adjustment to the Divine mind has been reached. Submission is not merely the suppression of desire, but the bringing of desire into line with the Divine will, and, if needs be, changing desire. Desire may be a very strong thing, a mighty propelling force, but a propelling force ought to be so much under control that it can be switched into the direction of an arresting force. To propel a train, a tremendous amount of power and force is required, but a modern train is so arranged that the mighty propelling force which carries it forward can in a moment be switched to its brakes to pull it to a halt. In prayer, where submission is in view, that is very often what has to be done. That strength of desire has to be arrested in one direction and brought into another direction, perhaps from propelling us forward to bringing us to a standstill in the will of God. That is submission. You see, submission is an active thing, a positive thing.

I anticipate that there will be many questions in this connection, but it is very important to recognize that prayer in its second aspect is submission, which is a positive thing. It is not just collapsing before God and saying: 'Well, I trust that everything will turn out all right. I just acquiesce in things as they are and leave it with the Lord.' Submission is coming positively into line with God's will, God's desire and God's mind. That very often means the deepest conflict, and sometimes heartbreak, but it is necessary. We will touch that again later.

[b]Prayer as Petition[/b]

Thirdly, prayer is petition, request, or asking. That is all the same, whichever word you prefer. Here we touch what is perhaps the major aspect in the activity of prayer. Undoubtedly it has the largest place in Scripture, and it really defines the meaning of the word 'prayer.'

From a scriptural standpoint prayer is rightly taken to mean petition, and if you go through the Word of God you will find that prayer represents petition in an overwhelming measure. Perhaps we do not need very much argument along that line to prove or persuade that it is so, but I am quite sure that before we are through we shall see that a note of emphasis is necessary, for, after all, our main problems arise in the direction of asking, in the realm of petition. We shall go on praying, of course, and we shall go on asking, in spite of them all. I trust that we shall, but it is as well for us to have the ground well laid for petition, for request, for asking, and for us to recognize clearly, and be fully assured, that there is an objective efficacy in prayer. I do not doubt but that all of us at some time or other have a little catch in our prayers of request and asking because of a little mental something that comes in and undermines certainty. What I am talking about is the objective efficacy of prayer, that is, prayer which has power to change things objectively and not merely have an influence upon us inwardly, prayer which brings answers outside of ourselves. Petition, request, asking, as set over against all false arguments, such as: Divine omniscience makes prayer unnecessary; God knows everything; He knows what He will do, how He will do it, and He knows the end of all things from the beginning, so why pray? Or again: Divine goodness makes prayer superfluous. God is good, compassionate, merciful and longsuffering. He will only do the best, for He is love, so prayer is superfluous. Why petition the Lord to do good, to be gracious, to show kindness and to do the best for us? Why not trust the goodness of God? Prayer is superfluous. Or once more: Divine foreordination makes prayer useless. If God has settled things eternally, predestination holds good, so it is useless to pray. Or, running alongside of that, Divine sovereignty - the fact that God rules and overrules, He is in the throne of government and has all things in His hands and in His power - makes prayer lack of faith. Why ask, why pray, why petition, why request, when all things are in God's hands and He is ruling and over-ruling, governing and directing in His sovereignty? Once more: the Divine vastness of law and purpose makes prayer presumptuous. It is presumption to ask God to change things when He has fixed everything according to His eternal laws and things are moving in correspondence with a set order. It is presumption to expect the Lord to go out of His order, or to ask Him to do so. (See chapter 4.)

Now, you may not have put things like that, and those questions may never have arisen in your minds in that way, but I venture to suggest that, whether those words have been in your mind or not, whether you have put things like that or not, what is contained in them has from time to time crept subtly into your prayer-life, has affected it and taken some of the grip out of it. When you have been praying an indefinable something has crept in: 'Well, the Lord knows what He will do so why should I beseech Him? The Lord is good and gracious, so why should I ask Him? The Lord knows the end from the beginning, so why should I not just trust Him? The Lord's purposes are fixed, so why should I begin to wrestle with Him to change things? He will work out His purpose and He is of set mind, so who can change Him?' Prayer is affected, if not by the actual framing of the language mentally, by that sense of contradiction which comes in. All these things creep into the mind or heart and have a tendency to deter or weaken in the matter of prayer, and we have to deal with these more fully as we go on. We must recognize that the modernism of our time does set aside the objective efficacy of prayer and only gives to it the place of a subjective value, that is, its salutary influence upon the one who prays in making a change of, perhaps, demeanour, or mind, or reason, by certain qualities of reverence and such like.

Before we take up some of these things more fully, let me say that there are two things to bear in mind always in petitional prayer. The first is the basic need of the other two aspects, communion and submission. For petitional prayer, in which, after all that I have said, we believe, and with which, after all, we shall go on, nevertheless the basic need is communion with the Lord so that prayer does not resolve itself into merely asking God for things, but comes out of a heart-fellowship with Him. And it needs submission, so that our petitions are not for our own ends or personal desires, but, having been brought by submission into line with the Divine will, are based upon oneness with the mind and will of God. You will find that I am only putting in another way what is made perfectly clear in the Word of God, namely: "If you shall ask anything according to His will." That is submission.

Then the other thing to bear in mind in petitional prayer is that, in view of all the mental difficulties which I have mentioned, it becomes pre-eminently an act of faith. It is these mental difficulties which very largely make petitional prayer an act of faith. Yes, argue if you will along all these lines, about the sovereignty of God, and predestination, and so on; nevertheless, we believe that God will change things. In spite of all the arguments which would undercut and weaken prayer, we are going on asking. That makes petitional prayer pre-eminently an act of faith. You may say that is a very cheap way of getting out of it. Well, we have not finished yet, but that is the conclusion at which we have to arrive. We do not want to get out of this cheaply.

[b]Prayer as Co-operation[/b]

There are yet two other aspects of prayer, one of which we will deal with in this chapter, and the other we will leave for later.

The fourth aspect is co-operation, and this is the governing object of prayer. It gets behind everything else and will set us right as to praying and to prayer in all its aspects. Communion, submission, petition and conflict are all adjusted and set right when we recognize that prayer is co-operation, for all these other aspects and phases of prayer are for co-operation. Co-operation is the motive, the truth, the life, the liberty, the power and the glory of prayer. The motive of prayer is co-operation with God. What prayer is in truth is cooperation with God. To have life in prayer we have to recognize that it is co-operation with God, and we get life when prayer is entered into as co-operation with God. If we are not in co-operation with God we may be sure that we shall have no life in prayer. If we are really cooperating with God we shall know we have life in prayer.

Liberty in prayer comes along the line of co-operation with God, and it is not until we get that adjustment, that coming into line with God's purpose, that we 'get through,' as we say. Immediately we get into line with the purpose of God and actively co-operate, then we get movement and there is liberty.

In the same way the power of prayer is related to co-operation with God. Co-operation with God is power in prayer. Think of Elijah, and others, coming into co-operation with God and the resulting effectiveness of their prayer. What is accomplished!

And then the glory of prayer. Prayer becomes a glorious thing when it is really intelligently and spiritually a matter of co-operation with God. Co-operation eliminates selfishness and everything that is merely personal. That is one of its chief values, for it means that prayer should bring us into the Divine plan, the Divine method, the Divine time and the Divine spirit, or disposition. All these things are important - not only to know the plan, but God's method of fulfilling His plan; not only to know the plan and the method, but to come into God's time; and then, not only to be on that executive side, but to be in a right spirit for the thing when the time has come, to do it in the Spirit, in the demeanor of the Lord. All that is co-operation. We may be in a right thing, in a right way, at a right time, and yet not be helping the Lord because we are in a wrong spirit that is not the spirit of the Lord. Prayer in co-operation with God is to make adjustment in all these matters.

There are three factors which are essential to prayer. Firstly, desire; secondly, faith; and thirdly, volition, or will. I just make that statement and leave it as it is.

Then when we put together communion, submission and petition we have co-operation. When they go together and are adjusted to each other, in line with each other and with the Divine will, then you have co-operation.

Perhaps, in closing that phase of things, we might remind ourselves that very often the Lord calls for an initial exercise on our part before He comes in on His side. He very often requires an initiative from us in the matter of desire, of faith and of volition. It is like the drop of water that has to be put into the old-fashioned pump to produce the stream, and you do not get the flow until you have given the pump something. And the Lord just calls for that on our part which may be, in comparison, a very little, but which makes it possible for Him to come out in His fullness. Very often prayer at its commencement represents exercise of will, faith and desire on our part, and then the Lord responds to that. It may be that the Lord does not respond until He sees the desire put into faith's deliberate action of the will to get through to Him. There is very often a good deal of discouragement met with at the commencement of prayer, and the danger is that we should give up too soon because we do not seem to be getting anywhere. The Lord is just asking for that drop of water to start the flow!

So far we have only mentioned four aspects of prayer, and have referred to some of the difficulties which arise in connection with them, but we have not cleared up those difficulties. We shall give two whole chapters to the fifth aspect of prayer, and then proceed to deal at greater length with the difficulties by way of seeking to answer them. These difficulties, however, are really only in the realm of the mind, and while they may sometimes get in the way of faith, faith will triumph over them, and leave behind a history of mighty things in spite of them.

What I am confused about is the part I copied and pasted from your article I cannot find now. It may be there somewhere but I can't find it and the whole article has been moved and I had to do an advanced search to even find this comment and answer from you. What happened. Where is the article that contains the information in red letters I copied from your article? If I am in error on this I apologize in advance. If you edited it for some reason that's ok, but it was there this afternoon. Just trying to get on the same page and find out what happened? When I checked the thread tonight it was moved rearranged and I had to do an advance search and recopy what I posted earlier in the day??????????

Hi Gary, had the same difficulty, apologize for all this mixing things up here. The quote you have in red there was from the other thread;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18808&forum=45&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]The Word of God and Prayer ~ Chadwick[/url]

And was from Samuel Chadwick, look under the subheading [b]Aids To Devotion[/b], the last paragraph in that section is that which you have quoted. Would have to go back and take it all in as to the context there.

So it was not edited or anything, just made a bit more confusing since we went from Chadwick to Sparks and the decision to move the Sparks chapters over to this thread on prayer. My apologies once again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To this matter at hand ... namely this book and these chapters, I am finding even my earlier thoughts about [i]not[/i] making this a must read ill-advised.

This may be the most important thing any of us could get down into the marrow of our being. It is [i]still[/i] difficult to start where I had mind to earlier this morning and that was due to finding myself right smack in the very battle of chapter 3. Much could be said and am short on time, but what a time it has been this very morning, precisely the assault and tactics, things I have known before and experienced but here it is now 6:30am my time and to think this all started somewhere in the neighborhood of 3:00am ... It could have been a half hour for all I know or so it seemed, strange way of putting it, but my what an incredible thing, the sheer audacity sometimes ...

[i]Submission is not merely the suppression of desire, but the bringing of desire into line with the Divine will, and, if needs be, changing desire. Desire may be a very strong thing, a mighty propelling force, but a propelling force ought to be so much under control that it can be switched into the direction of an arresting force. To propel a train, a tremendous amount of power and force is required, but a modern train is so arranged that the mighty propelling force which carries it forward can in a moment be switched to its brakes to pull it to a halt. In prayer, where submission is in view, that is very often what has to be done. That strength of desire has to be arrested in one direction and brought into another direction, perhaps from propelling us forward to bringing us to a standstill in the will of God. That is submission. You see, submission is an active thing, a positive thing.[/i]

"in a moment
be switched to its brakes
to pull it to a halt."

"In prayer, where submission is in view, that is very often what has to be done."

"That strength of desire has to be arrested in one direction and brought into another direction..."

Find this quite often. There is no doubt that often times due to absorbing so much from reading things here and either musing on them or even in making them matters of prayer that I can find myself couching things in a matter of response. Reasoning them out and with a mind to that specifically. That may not be inherently wrong except for the very things mentioned above.

It in effect blows by the train station without stopping to ask, what is the Lord's mind on this? And just as often when their is the halt find that the whole panoply needs to be just rejected, not stated;

[i]"That strength of desire has to be arrested in one direction and brought into another direction..."[/i]

How does this apply to dynamics of this forum? And specifically in the idea of 'praying before posting?'

Not an insinuation, if it were it would be as one speaking from experience and failure. As this goes on I cannot help but finding much that applies directly to matters of discussion and the very things that pit one against another as Brethren far too often.

[b]Chapter 2 - Prayer as Warfare[/b]

[i]Reading[/i]: Nehemiah 4:9,17,20. Ephesians 6:18.

The Christian life has very often been likened to a warfare, and the appeal has been made to 'come and join the ranks and enter into the battle of the Lord.' But there is an irregularity about such an appeal, because, while it is true that there is such a warfare and such a militant company, the real consciousness of the fight, the battle, the warfare, does not exist until we are saved and are 'on the Lord's side.' The unconverted do not know anything about this battle. For them it is something merely reported and spoken about, something objective - outside of themselves and something about which they have altogether confused and wrong ideas. It is not until we are really in Christ that we either know the reality of the battle or understand its true nature.

But it is not just the warfare of the Christian life in the general and ordinary sense with which we are concerned here at this time. It is that warfare which is especially connected with, and related to, the full testimony of the Lord Jesus. The general conception of Christian warfare is that which has to do with evils, wrongs, vices, the things in this world, and human conditions which ought to be otherwise, and it is there that the mistaken apprehension of unconverted men and women is found. They think that to enter into the Christian army means to go out to battle with the evils, the wrongs, and the vices which abound in this world. But when you really come into touch with the full testimony of the Lord Jesus you very soon develop another consciousness: that it is not merely evils, wrongs and sins that you are having to deal with, but spiritual forces - intelligent, cunning, artful, venomous, malicious forces - which are at the back of everything else. It is that warfare with which we are concerned just now, that which is related to the full testimony of the Lord Jesus, to His absolute and perfect sovereignty and lordship in this universe, and that warfare is not with things but with spiritual persons, headed by a great spiritual personage, the evil one.

[b]Spiritual Conflict Implies a Spiritual Position[/b]

This warfare is related to a position. It is a consciousness which only comes to us in a certain realm. You may be a Christian, and as a Christian you may realize that you are up against adversities, difficulties, oppositions, and things which make the Christian life strenuous and full of conflict, calling out all the militant features of life, and yet you may not have entered into the ultimate things of the testimony of the Lord Jesus and the ultimate realm of the battle of the saints. But if you come as a believer to a revelation of the fullness of Christ in His personal sovereignty and lordship, in the greatness of the work of His cross in every realm, and then into the light of the Church which is His Body, you enter immediately into a new realm of conflict, the battle changes its character, and you begin to develop a consciousness, or a consciousness begins to grow in you, that you are up against something far more sinister, far more intelligently evil than those wrongs that abound in the world. You become increasingly conscious that it is with the devil, directly and nakedly, and with his forces that you are having to do.

But that consciousness is bound up with a specific position, and the experience of believers is that as they go on with the Lord (which means going upward, away from the earthlies to the heavenlies, more and more away from the old creation to the new creation life, and more and more away from the flesh to the spirit) the more closely do they come into contact with the ultimate spiritual forces of the universe, and the conflict assumes new forms and the warfare takes a new character. It is a warfare linked up with a specific position to which the believer comes, and with the consciousness which comes in only in a certain realm. It is in a fuller measure a spiritual warfare, and being that, it pre-supposes a spiritual state on the part of the believer.

To put that in another way: the more spiritual we become, the more spiritual does the warfare become; and the more spiritual the warfare is in our consciousness and in our knowledge, so we may realize that we have become more spiritual. When we are carnal our warfare is carnal, and I refer to believers and not to unbelievers. The unbeliever is not spoken of as carnal. He is natural. When we are carnal as believers, our warfare and our weapons are carnal. That is, we meet men on their own level and answer back their challenge with that with which they challenge us. If they come out in argument we counter with argument; if they come out with reason we meet them with reason; if they come out with fierce temper we meet them in the heat of the flesh; and if they come out to us with criticism, well, we give them what they give us and try to go one better, meeting them always on their own level.

That is carnal warfare, using carnal weapons. When we cease to be carnal and leave all carnal ground, becoming wholly spiritual, we find ourselves in a new realm at the back of men, dealing with spiritual forces directly and not with merely carnal forces. We have come into touch with something at the back of carnal man, and the carnal man is utterly helpless in the presence of a spiritual man for the simple reason that he cannot get the spiritual man to come down to his level. Therefore he is disarmed, and sooner or later he will have to recognize that that spiritual man is his superior. But the superiority is not just in that the spiritual man is on a new level. It is that he is meeting not the man naturally, but the forces behind the man. It is spiritual warfare now. We cease to fight after the flesh; we cease to fight man; we cease to battle with flesh; our warfare is in another realm altogether. That represents spiritual advance, spiritual growth, and it represents spirituality. And when we come into real spiritual warfare a spiritual state is pre-supposed. In that realm the natural man's resources are utterly useless. They are ruled out, because for that warfare only spiritual equipment is either permissible or effective. The warfare then is with spiritual weapons, spiritual resources and spiritual equipment. So Ephesians 6 finds us in the heavenlies, battling, not with flesh and blood, but with principalities and powers, but we are equipped with a spiritual armour, the armour of God.

[b]The Prayer-life - the Objective of the Enemy[/b]

That is all preliminary. What we are coming to immediately as the thing of basic importance for us, having seen the nature of our warfare, is that the battlefield of this warfare is prayer. When the Apostle Paul has shown us the whole panoply of God, the armour in all its parts, and exhorted us to take it up and to stand, and withstand, he, as it were, spreads the ground under our feet and says: "With all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints." The battleground of this warfare is prayer. What I mean is this: that this battle is won on the ground of prayer, these forces are dealt with and defeated on the ground of prayer, and, that being so, the chief objective of the enemy is the prayer-life of the believer. That is the focal point of all the enemy's attention and strategy.

Now if we said no more than that, that is the supreme thing for our grasping and for our recognition. We have said the most important thing that can be said in this connection. The focal point of all the enemy's attention and strategy is the prayer-life of the believer. If he can destroy that by any means he has gained the day, defeated the saints and frustrated the ends of God. The enemy fights prayer persistently, energetically, violently and cunningly, and he fights the prayer-life of the believer. He fights it in various ways. First of all, he fights it along preventive lines, in the direction of prevention, and there has to be a tremendous battle and conflict to get prayer - not only to pray, but to have prayer, get prayer - and there is nothing in all the range of his wit, his cunning, his craftiness, his ingenuity and his resourcefulness that the enemy will not employ to prevent real spiritual prayer. I think it will probably be enough for us if we concentrate upon that just now.

[i]cont.[/i]

To put that in another way: the more spiritual we become, the more spiritual does the warfare become; and the more spiritual the warfare is in our consciousness and in our knowledge, so we may realize that we have become more spiritual. When we are carnal our warfare is carnal, and I refer to believers and not to unbelievers. The unbeliever is not spoken of as carnal. He is natural. When we are carnal as believers, our warfare and our weapons are carnal. That is, we meet men on their own level and answer back their challenge with that with which they challenge us. If they come out in argument we counter with argument; if they come out with reason we meet them with reason; if they come out with fierce temper we meet them in the heat of the flesh; and if they come out to us with criticism, well, we give them what they give us and try to go one better, meeting them always on their own level.

That is carnal warfare, using carnal weapons. When we cease to be carnal and leave all carnal ground, becoming wholly spiritual, we find ourselves in a new realm at the back of men, dealing with spiritual forces directly and not with merely carnal forces. We have come into touch with something at the back of carnal man, and the carnal man is utterly helpless in the presence of a spiritual man for the simple reason that he cannot get the spiritual man to come down to his level. Therefore he is disarmed, and sooner or later he will have to recognize that that spiritual man is his superior. But the superiority is not just in that the spiritual man is on a new level. It is that he is meeting not the man naturally, but the forces behind the man. It is spiritual warfare now. We cease to fight after the flesh; we cease to fight man; we cease to battle with flesh; our warfare is in another realm altogether. That represents spiritual advance, spiritual growth, and it represents spirituality. And when we come into real spiritual warfare a spiritual state is pre-supposed. In that realm the natural man's resources are utterly useless. They are ruled out, because for that warfare only spiritual equipment is either permissible or effective. The warfare then is with spiritual weapons, spiritual resources and spiritual equipment. So Ephesians 6 finds us in the heavenlies, battling, not with flesh and blood, but with principalities and powers, but we are equipped with a spiritual armour, the armour of God.

[b]The Battle for Prayer[/b]

I am quite sure that I have the agreement of most of the Lord's people when I say that one of the most difficult things, if not the most difficult thing, is to be able to get to prayer and give ourselves to prayer. When we contemplate prayer we meet a host of unsuspected and unforeseen difficulties which suddenly rise up as ambush forces breaking out upon us. Anything to prevent prayer! I am not saying something that you do not know, but I am saying it in order that you may recognize it clearly, definitely and deliberately, and face the fact that it is not just ordinary circumstances, but a designed, well-laid scheme of the enemy to prevent prayer. The enemy, instead of objecting, will promote occupation with a thousand and one things for the Lord if thereby he can crowd out prayer. He does not mind how busy we are in the Lord's work, nor how often we are found preaching, conducting meetings, and doing the many-sided work of the Lord, as we may call it. He knows quite well that all the work for the Lord which is not founded upon triumphant spiritual prayer will count for little or nothing in the long run and will break down. I say that he does not mind you working. Work for the Lord as hard as you can, but if you leave out prayer you will not accomplish very much. One of the subtleties of the enemy is to get us so busy, so occupied, so much on the go and on the rush with - as we think - things for the Lord and the work of the Lord that our prayer is cramped and pushed up into a corner and limited, if not almost entirely ruled out; and the Lord will never accept the excuse: 'Lord, I am too much engaged in Your interests to pray.' The Lord never favours an attitude like that.

You will remember that when the children of Israel began to talk about and contemplate their exodus from Egypt, the enemy's reaction was to double their labours, that is, to get them so much more deeply occupied with work that there would be no more time for contemplating an exodus. Immediately you begin to contemplate or purpose a fuller prayer-life, the enemy launches a new scheme for keeping you more busy and occupied, heaping up the work and crowding in demands so that you will have no time or opportunity for prayer.

I think that we must face this quite definitely. Of course, there are all the arguments about duty, obligation and responsibility, and it does sometimes look as though to put some things aside for prayer would be neglecting duty, or failing in obligation, or breaking down in responsibility, but there is a place where we have to cast those matters upon the Lord, and pray.

Now, of course, it is very difficult to apply that. There are always dangers about saying a thing like that, because there are always people who are more than ready to let go of their responsibilities, or who do not take their responsibilities seriously. They would be only too ready and glad to hand over their domestic affairs to someone else while they cultivate a devotional life. The Lord must safeguard this word. But we must recognize this: that the enemy will construct his best arguments about responsibility, duty and conscience to stop us praying, and there is a place where, if we see prayer is utterly ruled out, or brought down to such a limited place that it is completely inadequate for a life of spiritual ascendancy and victory, we have to say: 'Lord, I am going to trust the responsibility with You while I pray, that You will not allow my breaking away for this time to have detrimental results, and that You will protect this prayer-time - which I seek for Your glory - from the inroads of the enemy.'

The principle of the tithe does work, even in this realm. Give God His portion, His place, and you will find that when you have given the Lord His one-tenth, you are able to do more with the nine-tenths than you could do with ten-tenths. That principle works. But there is a battle for prayer, and the necessity is for a strong, a mighty, a deliberate and a determined stand in Christ, by the victory of His cross, to get prayer, to bring in the full weight and the value of the victory of the cross of the Lord Jesus to secure prayer and to drive the enemy off the ground of prayer so that that ground may be held for prayer. It is like Shammah of old, when he stood in the lentil patch with his sword in his hand and, singlehanded, fought the Philistines and preserved that lentil patch, and the Lord wrought a great victory. The lentil patch may represent our prayer-ground, which has to be defended against the enemy in the fullness of Calvary's victory. There is a fight to get prayer and a battle for prayer. We have, I am afraid, too often accepted the situation that it is not possible to pray just now, or things are such as to make it quite out of the question to pray. Yes, they will be if the devil has his way; they will be always such as to make prayer out of the question. That is one of his tactics. We have to clear the ground for prayer in the victory of His Name and of His Cross. The Cross is just as effectual in securing time for prayer, if we will apply it and use it, as it is in any other realm.

But we have to approach prayer on victory-ground. We have to take up this attitude, and we shall find it more and more necessary to do so: 'Now prayer must be. Everything makes it impossible on the human side, but, Lord, I claim in the victory of Calvary a time of prayer, a clear space for prayer.' We have to stand in that victory, and it may mean standing before we get through. It is not only the many things that may press in upon us along the line of external circumstances and happenings, to leave no room for a time of prayer. How true it is that when we are actually down on our knees prayer is withstood! It may be nothing on the outside. There may be no doorbells ringing, no telephone going, nor callers coming. We may be shut up in the silence of our own room and be actually on our knees, and then a mighty interfering activity commences. It may be physical. We may suddenly develop a physical consciousness that was not there a little while before, and it will threaten the whole of our prayer-time, so that we find that bodily we have to take up a tremendous burden, a deadweight. We may even develop positive symptoms of illness of which we were unconscious before. These are facts. And then mental conditions may come in just at that time which were not there before. Oh, immediately, what an inrush of a thousand and one things which have not bothered us up till that moment! The mind becomes occupied by way of reflection and with things we must not forget which have not troubled us until that moment. And what about that sense of numbness, coldness, distance and unreality that descends upon you at such times? If you pray audibly your voice sounds strange and far away, and you seem to be talking into the air. All these things, and many others, come when we purpose prayer. They come on the very threshold, and for a time we meet all manner of discouragements and set-backs to prayer, and if we take the first five, ten or even fifteen minutes as our criterion, we will give it up, close down, get up and get on with something else.

Yes, the enemy is out to prevent prayer, and there is a phase of the battle which has to be gone through in order to get prayer. Again I say, this is nothing strange or foreign to you - unless, of course, you have not had a prayer-life at all, or are one who has never seriously taken up the business of prayer. But I am not saying all this to inform you. I am saying it to you and to myself in order that we may recognize that this is a thing which calls us into battle. It is the warfare of the saints to get to prayer, and not only to pray through. There is this aspect of the enemy's activity which is to prevent prayer, and to obtain it is a battle. There has to be a standing, a taking up of a position, and a withstanding in prayer for prayer.

I trust that the saying of all this which is so true to your experiences will nevertheless have the desired effect of making you recognize that in the future your prayer-life is not going to develop if the enemy can prevent it, and if you are going to have it and it is going to develop, then you will have to stand for it. It will not just come. You will not find that you just drift into it. You will never find that you drift into a mighty prayer-life, or that you walk with ease into such a thing. You will find that there is some making and breaking, some conflict and some battle to get it, that every realm of things will be taken hold of by the enemy to prevent it, and all that he has at his command of supernature will be used. You and I, dear friends, have to fight for our prayer-life, and the more we advance with the Lord spiritually, the more we shall find that to be so. It is not that the enemy is out to stop you and me from having a personal prayer-life. That is not what he is against. It is the testimony of the Lord Jesus which is so closely bound up with the prayer-life of the Lord's people that he is out to destroy. You and I, as individuals, as human beings, do not mean anything to the enemy. It is that which is bound up with us, and with which we are bound up in Christ - His sovereignty and His glory.

[b]What Is Involved in Prayer[/b]

Now does it occur to you, or even strike you with considerable force, that this resistance to prayer-life on the part of the enemy implies - or more than that, it positively declares and proclaims - that the Lord's glory and honour, His Name and His testimony are preeminently secured by prayer? If that is the focal point of the enemy's activity, then it means that the Lord's highest interests are served by prayer. That puts prayer in the first place. That, again, is not new to you, and yet it is a further emphasis upon the fact that the enemy is always trying to get prayer into the last place. He will try to get anything else in relation to the Lord before prayer, and get prayer in the last place. And it does not matter how you put it, or what you say to Christian people about this, you cannot get it home to them. 'Oh, it is only the prayer meeting tonight!' On Sunday night, when there is ministry of the Word and preaching, you will have a large gathering, but on prayer meeting night you go into a side hall which will be perhaps a little more than half full. And yet on Sunday night you have said that our main ministry is prayer and everything goes if our prayer-life fails! You may say anything you like along that line, emphasize it and stress it, but it does not make any difference. I must confess that I am often bewildered by the fact that so many really spiritual people - for so I give them credit for being - will crowd to preaching meetings and conferences, but they are rarely seen at a prayer meeting and leave so few to do the praying in the corporate prayer-life of the assembly.

Yes, it is just like that, as though listening to an address were the first and primary thing, and as though getting Bible teaching and truth were more than anything else. No, dear friends! Not at all! All that can only become vital, living and effective in so far as our prayer-life, individually and corporately, is maintained in strength and given the first place. So suffer whatever there might be of correction in the word, for it is true, is it not? Oh, we have all been guilty. We all have to say to ourselves: 'Thou art the man!' We do need so much to get the Lord's estimate of the value of prayer, and if you go through the Word you will find that He estimates prayer at a higher value than anything else in His people. Look at His own life! Oh, amazement of amazement, that One such as the Son of God, in all that He was, should yet maintain such a prayer-life! "A great while before day," or "continued all night." Yes, He prayed!

And has it occurred to you that some of the most glorious unveilings of truth that we have in the Bible came in prayers? Read those prayers of Paul in Ephesians and Colossians! "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father...", and then he goes on and gives you his prayer, and in that prayer you have a revelation which is matchless. It has come in prayer, so that your teaching is based upon the prayer-life of a man. Your light, in its true value, comes out of prayer, and there is no light of real value that is not born of prayer. All the value of truth depends upon the prayer which is behind it, so that our conferences, our meetings, our addresses, and all the truth that comes just remain so much negative matter if there is not a commensurate prayer-life on our part in relation to it. We have to pray it in and pray it out, and I feel that after a conference the thing to do is to get to prayer more than ever on the ground of what has been said, and take that up before the Lord. If we did that, how much more fruit there would be from our conferences! Instead of having truth in our notebooks we would have it in our lives. Instead of so much more truth that we have now become acquainted with, we would be entering into the working power of that truth if we came back with it to the Lord in prayer. No one is more conscious of the need of having things said to him on this matter than I am at this time, but we are speaking together of these things and I trust that we are all taking them to heart. Oh, for the day when, not for the sake of numbers (for it is not a matter of counting heads) but because of the recognition of the pre-eminent place of prayer, the prayer meeting will be as crowded as any conference gathering! It only needs the apprehension of God's estimate of prayer, and we shall regard it as at least as important as any conference meeting with a theme and an address. [i]The Lord burn that into our hearts, for that is the preeminent work - prayer.[/i]

It is not a great deal that has been said, but it is very important, and let us remember the word in connection with the enemy's determination to prevent prayer. We shall go on to show you that if he cannot prevent it, he will try to interrupt it; and if he cannot interrupt it, he will try to destroy it afterwards. There are other aspects of this thing, but we have perhaps seen enough to get us into some very definite place in relation to our prayer-life in facing it in the Name of the Lord.

THis has been my story this last week. Anyone say prayer is easy, I am not sure about that. It hard and lots of work. It take all me at time. If I really give my whole heart. Oh let us really battle, let us battle in prayer

Blessing , thank you brother
Charlene

[b]Chapter 3 - Prayer as Warfare (continued)[/b]

[i]Reading[/i]: 1 Kings 18:30-32, 36-38, 42-45. James 5:17-18. Ephesians 6:18.

We note that what is true of the enemy's activity along the line of prevention of prayer is also true along the line of interruption of prayer. I do not only mean that while you are praying you have interruptions, but he has a subtle way of interfering with the continuity of a prayer-life. You may triumphantly secure seasons of prayer for perhaps a week, or more, and then something is introduced which breaks into that continuity so that you lose it, and you find that after a time a tremendous battle has to be fought to recover that prayer-life. For many of us our history is that of a spasmodic prayer-life which comes in patches, a history fraught with the necessity for every now and then recovering lost ground through having a setback - the interruption of the enemy. So we have to set a watch there, and watch especially against reactions from intensive periods of prayer, slackening off and feeling that now, after that strenuous time, we can take a spiritual holiday. There is always a very great peril there, as David proved. At a time when kings went out to battle, he went up on to the housetop. Then what the enemy cannot prevent or interrupt, he will seek to destroy afterwards. That is, he will direct his attention to spoiling the prayer-life afterwards. We may have a strong time, or a series of strong times, but if he cannot directly attack our prayer-life, the enemy is always out to spoil it through another angle which does not seem immediately to be related to it, but by which indirectly we are crippled. Our prayer-life may be very strong, good and consistent, but something happens in some other department of our life, perhaps in a relationship somewhere else, and when we come to prayer we find that that thing represents a direct blow at our prayer-life and we cannot go on until that thing has been dealt with.

We must recognize that all these things are just the enemy's efforts, and are a highly organized scheme to destroy, either directly or indirectly, our prayer-life, or to interfere with it. Thus we shall find that our prayer-life is the focal point of everything.

It is when we come really to pray, to the real business of prayer, that we shall discover exactly where we are in all the relationships of our life. The iniquity which we regard in our hearts may not have anything to do directly with our prayer-life, but it comes indirectly as a terrific blow upon us. Things which may be side-shows bear right down upon our prayer-life. The enemy is always putting up these things all round to destroy our prayer-life. We register the state of things when we come to prayer. We may not recognize for the moment what a certain thing means, whatever that thing may be. It may be an interrupted fellowship, a strained relationship, a cross-purpose, or a breach somewhere, and we may not recognize exactly what it does mean until we come to take up our strong prayer-life. Then we find that that thing has struck at the very vitals of prayer and we cannot get on. That thing is out there, and so we are held up here; and then we discover that there has been a subtle working on the circumference of our lives which strikes at the very centre. The enemy would destroy our prayer-life, would, so to speak, throw things at it from the outside to make it impossible. I think you are able to follow what I mean, for experience bears it out.

[b]The Universality of Prayer[/b]

Now we come to widen out a little in this spiritual conflict. These passages which we have read present us with a very comprehensive position. In 1 Kings 18 the account of the battle of Elijah on Carmel is undoubtedly an Old Testament illustration of the New Testament truth, especially of Ephesians 6. These two things go together as type and antitype, as part and counterpart, and what is common to them both is that the sphere of the conflict is the heavenlies. What James says directs the whole of this matter to the heavens: the opening and closing of the heavens, the government of the heavens, the ruling of the heavens. The heavens are the main object in view here, and this conflict relates to the heavens and the heavenlies: "Our wrestling is... in the heavenlies." Elijah's conflict was in a very real way a conflict in the heavens where heavenly forces were involved. That, I think, is patent, and that is a common feature in these two portions of the Word.

This particular spiritual conflict in which you and I are found when we have come into God's full purpose and testimony in Christ is, in its ultimate issue, related to the government of the heavens. Who is going to govern in the heavens? There are the principalities, the powers, the world-rulers of this darkness and the spiritual hosts of wickedness who have assumed the place of government. They are in a usurped place, for that is not the eternal thought of God, nor is it His will. Christ is Head, and His Church as His members are, in the intention of God, called to rule in the heavens, to govern as from the heavens. It is a question of what the heavens are in this matter, whether they are to be satanic, or whether they are to be the expression of the absolute lordship of the Lord Jesus in and through the Church, which is His Body. It is the heavenlies, the ruling realities, which are involved, and it is there that our conflict is. That is the sphere of this warfare, and our prayer-life has to do with that. It is not merely to do with the incidents of our lives here on the earth. Oh, that the Lord's people would recognize the immensity of this, for so often the generality of our prayer is in the realm of merely trivial things, and a great deal of time is taken up with telling the Lord all about the little things of our ordinary earthly life which, while they may be important to us and may count in an earthly life, do not touch the ultimate things in God's purpose.

There is such a difference between praying down there and praying against the immense forces of the universe and getting the heavenly things through. The Lord's people want to be lifted in prayer to where the mighty, heavenly, eternal and universal are affected, touched and brought through. There is a great need for us to be brought into our heavenly place in the matter of prayer, where real spiritual matters lying behind the other are touched. Very often the Lord never allows our prayers to be effective in the merely earthly details of our lives because He wants us to see that there is something behind those things which matters a great deal more. You sometimes pray for a thing to happen, a change to take place, or an event to come off, but nothing happens. The Lord seeks - after you have extended yourself as fully as you can on the matter - to show you that there is a spiritual key to that situation, and He cannot do just the earthly thing for you because that would not in any way be to your spiritual increase of intelligence, understanding, knowledge or value, and would only be doing things because you asked Him. He is trying to instruct and teach you so that you come into possession of spiritual situations.

Well, it is the heavens which are the sphere of this conflict.

[b]The Church - the Occasion of the Conflict[/b]

What is the occasion of the conflict? What is it for? Well, from the context in both these passages, 1 Kings 18 and Ephesians 6, you see that the occasion of the conflict is the Church. The Church is the immediate object in view. In 1 Kings 18, of course, it is the people of God, and the issue of Elijah's prayer is that their hearts should be turned back. The Lord's people are in view and his prayer is for this people, so he brings them all near and involves them in this issue, and associates them with it, because it is their issue. We know that the thing which is in view right through the letter to the Ephesians is the Church which is His Body, and this is the occasion of the conflict. It is a battle in the heavenlies in relation to the Church, the Body of Christ.

There are two things to be said about that. One, that it is not merely a personal matter, but a collective, corporate matter. This conflict relates to the whole Body of Christ, and the conflict of every individual is a related conflict, relating to all the rest of the saints, so that there is that spiritual relativity which means that if one member is defeated the whole Body suffers spiritually. It may not know why, nor be conscious of its particular suffering, but, registered in the Head and the consciousness of the Head, there is a loss to the whole Body when even one member falls into defeat. The conflict is a related one; and so the enemy seeks to isolate individual members of the Body and bring such pressure upon them as to crush them down, because he knows - not just the value of an isolated member - but the relativity of every member. It is because of this that there is so much spiritual emphasis from the intelligence of the Holy Spirit upon the necessity for praying for all saints, for the fellowship prayer, the corporate prayer of the Lord's people. There is loss to Christ, the Head, if there is not that prayer for all saints.

[b]Christ in Glory - the Object of the Conflict[/b]

The other thing to be said about this is that it is not even the Church as the Body which is the ultimate thing, although it is the immediate occasion. We must not put the Church, the Body of Christ, in the pre-eminent place. It is an occasion, but it is not the final thing. The Church, the Body of Christ, is His instrument, His vessel for His testimony. His testimony is deposited in the Body. It was so in His resurrection, and at Pentecost the testimony of His victory, the testimony of His exaltation, the testimony of His glorification and the testimony of His universal authority in heaven and in earth was deposited in the Church. As the temple in the Old Testament was the shrine of the glory of God, so the Body of Christ in the New Testament is the shrine of His glory, His testimony and His Name, and it is ultimately to strike at that glory, that Name, and that exaltation that the enemy directs his attention to the elect vessel, the Church, the Body of Christ. And so the Church becomes the occasion of the conflict, although not the end, but the enemy gets at the Christ, at the Name and at the glory through the Body. We know that that was true in the Old Testament.

When Israel was in a state of declension the Lord's glory and honour, His Name, and His majesty were over-shadowed, beclouded, and lost to view. When Israel's spiritual life was in the ascendant, then Jehovah's testimony was maintained in full strength. In the New Testament, and in our own time in this New Testament age, the enemy's way of dishonouring the Lord is by destroying the spiritual life of the Lord's people, or by breaking up the fellowship of the saints.

So the Church, the Body, becomes the occasion of the conflict because of what it is in its divinely-appointed vocation, purpose and object. The enemy's bitter hatred and violent opposition are directed against the corporate life of the Lord's people. He will seek by any means to destroy that, to break up the fellowship of the saints, to set the Lord's people against one another, and to introduce disintegrating things - but, oh, how subtle are his ways in this!

[i]The Church, the Body of Christ, is His instrument, His vessel for His testimony. His testimony is deposited in the Body. It was so in His resurrection, and at Pentecost the testimony of His victory, the testimony of His exaltation, the testimony of His glorification and the testimony of His universal authority in heaven and in earth was deposited in the Church.[/i]

[b]The Church - the Occasion of the Conflict
Christ in Glory - the Object of the Conflict[/b]

[i]It is a consciousness which only comes to us in a certain realm. You may be a Christian, and as a Christian you may realize that you are up against adversities, difficulties, oppositions, and things which make the Christian life strenuous and full of conflict, calling out all the militant features of life, and yet you may not have entered into the ultimate things of the testimony of the Lord Jesus and the ultimate realm of the battle of the saints.[/i]

[i]It is not that the enemy is out to stop you and me from having a personal prayer-life. That is not what he is against. [b]It is the testimony of the Lord Jesus[/b] which is so closely bound up with the prayer-life of the Lord's people that he is out to destroy. You and I, as individuals, as human beings, do not mean anything to the enemy. It is that which is bound up with us, and with which we are bound up in Christ - His sovereignty and His glory.[/i]

[i]The Lords Testimony[/i]

[b]The Strategic Value of Watchfulness[/b]

Here I do feel, dear friends, that you and I will have to do what Nehemiah did, and what the Apostle in this very portion exhorts us to do: "Set a watch"; "watching thereunto," because, as you notice in both connections, it is the wiles of the devil which are in view. They are the subtle activities of the enemy, and to set a watch against the wiles of the devil in practical outworking will, at least in one direction, mean this: that we make quite sure that the rumours which we hear and the reports that come to us are absolutely trustworthy. We must make quite sure - "prove all things". We can be divided by a rumour, and split up by a report. We can be set at variance or apart by a mere insinuation. In these days, when the atmosphere is surcharged with fear and suspicion, you have only to hint at the possibility of someone being 'unsound' and a spiritual breach of fellowship is created and a gap made. If only we set a watch and made sure, we would find that a great deal of that was unnecessary and unwarranted, and represented a great loss to the Lord Himself and to His people, for when we get really to close grips and sift these things we find there is nothing in them, or, if there is anything in them, they have an explanation and we cannot fail, in all honesty of heart, to accept that as being right. That is very often how it works out.

But, oh! to set a watch against these wiles of the devil! His methods of breaking up the corporate life of the Lord's people are beyond our power to enumerate, and that is where prayer and watching are necessary. Prayer should result in intelligence about the wiles of the enemy, and 'watching unto prayer' is watching and praying that you might discover in prayer what it is the enemy is after and how he is working.

We do not want to be obsessed with the enemy, always to have our eyes on him, but we must recognize the facts as they are, and those facts are that throughout these almost two millenniums the enemy has made it his great business unceasingly to destroy the fellowship of the people of God. Is that true? Is that history? If it is true, what does it signify? That you can never have something that really in any measure represents what is precious to the Lord, something of a spiritual character, embodying some precious element of His testimony, but what it is the object of satanic malignity and cunning which has the one intention of splitting that thing, breaking it up, and getting schism and division there somehow, by truth or by lies. That is history, and surely it gives the whole game away, that a Church in fellowship, a Body rightly adjusted and related, moving together in the will of God, is the greatest menace to the spiritual rule of principalities and powers that there is in the universe.

So it is that to which we should work and direct our attention. Let us lay ourselves out for spiritual fellowship! That does not mean compromising with things which are contrary to the Word of God, and must not mean coming down from any spiritual position to which the Lord has, through cost, brought us. We must be where Nehemiah was when his enemies said, 'Come down and let us discuss this matter. We must confer about this.' Nehemiah said: "I am doing a great work so that I cannot come down." There must be no coming down to discuss things that are beyond the point of discussion as to spiritual necessity. But, dear friends, any spiritual position arrived at through cost and the deep in-working of the cross must be held only in relation to all the saints. It must not be held out of relation to the saints, nor must those who have it and hold it be made something apart from the rest. No! Whatever may be the difference of spiritual position so far as degree is concerned, fellowship with all saints must be striven after and maintained as far as possible, and it must be reached out for. I do want to urge that upon you more and more, as it is urged upon my own heart, because the Lord's end in giving light and truth may be defeated if the reception of it and the holding of it constitutes those who have it as being something apart from the rest of the saints. He has given it for the Body; if it is held apart, then the end for which He gave it has been missed. Lay that to heart very definitely!

So the occasion of the conflict is the Church, by reason of its heavenly calling and vocation. This is no personal thing, nor local thing: it is universal. The Body of Christ is a universal reality.

[b]The Basis of Victory[/b]

Just a word or two with regard to the basis of victory in this conflict. The basis of victory here in 1 Kings 18 was undoubtedly the altar, and in Ephesians it is the same. Before you reach your position in the heavenlies for heavenly conflict and triumph, you have to pass through the earlier chapters of Ephesians and recognize that a death has taken place, that an altar was there, and that, having died, you have been 'quickened and raised together.' All the features of the cross, the altar, are implied at the beginning of the letter to the Ephesians, so that both in the representation and in that which is represented the basis of victory is the cross, the altar. Elijah took twelve stones, and the constitution of the altar with twelve stones immediately brings in the administrative feature in relation to the altar, for twelve is the number of administration. The altar comprised of twelve stones becomes the administrative instrument, the governmental principle, in this conflict in the hands of God. The government is in the cross, and by the cross, for by His cross He triumphed, and in His cross He stripped off principalities and powers and 'made a show of them openly.' I wonder if, in reading those fragments of 1 Kings 18 you were struck with the terms: "...according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the Lord came, saying, Israel shall be thy name." What is that? Well, Israel means 'a prince with God,' so in that verse 31 we have sons of a prince with God represented in the altar, in the cross.

Symbolically that speaks to us very clearly of that basis of our coming into our Prince, our governmental position in Christ, Who is the Prince with God. He is greater than Israel, for He is the Prince with God, and we are sons in Him and partake of His princeliness. That brings us up into a place of governmental authority in Christ in the heavenlies, but it is all bound up with the altar, the cross. The cross is the basis of victory, and that is borne out again, not only by the testimony of heaven, the Word of God, but by the testimony of hell. Satan is an unwonted, unwilling - and I sometimes wonder whether he is an unconscious - witness to the truth in this way, for it is perfectly clear that he hated the cross, and he tried in the first place to keep the Lord Jesus from it: "...this shall not be unto Thee. But He turned and said unto Peter, Get thee behind Me, Satan." This is Satan trying to keep the Lord Jesus from the cross, and then, having failed to keep Him from it, he tried to bring Him off the cross: "If Thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross." Those subtle suggestions! "...let Him now come down from the cross and we will believe Him." To be believed in by the world was what He had come for, but, no, the second method of the enemy did not succeed.

The enemy having failed along those lines, and the cross having been accomplished in spite of him, he will seek now to change and alter the preaching of the cross in order to make it of non-effect. He will get people to preach it, and in their very preaching of it make it void. That is extraordinarily subtle! It is as well to recognize how far the enemy will go. He will promote the preaching of the cross, and the cross preached by his instigation and under his influence is made non-effective. The Apostle tells us that in his first letter to the Corinthians, that the cross preached in the wisdom of men makes it of non-effect, or void. Men preaching the cross in their wisdom are simply taking the true meaning and power out of the cross. Oh, yes, you hear plenty about the way of the cross, but it is not His way of the cross. The very power of the cross is in its registration against the enemy and all his works, against sin as a principle, and against evil as a state, a nature. The power of the cross is taken out when you speak about the heroics of the cross, and about the way of the cross as, well, any man who denies himself and lays down his life for his country is in the same category as Jesus Christ, Who, after all, only laid down His life as any soldier has done. That is the cross in modernism.

Another thing which the enemy seeks to do in relation to the cross is to keep Christians in ignorance of its full meaning. It is a great day for the Lord, and a terrible day for the enemy, when a Christian breaks through into the revelation of the full meaning of Calvary. That day marks a new bit of history in the realm of conflict. You may meet a certain kind of opposition on the ground of the substitutionary work of the Lord Jesus, but, believe me, you will meet ten times more when you come on to the ground of the representative work of the Lord Jesus, and when you take up your place in identification with Christ in death, burial and resurrection in a spiritual way. Then begins a new history of conflict, of battle, and of satanic antagonism, but you have entered into a new realm and a new place, and you have new powers at your command. The enemy has lost his ground. Multitudes believe in the substitutionary work and rejoice in it, but they are still going on in the energy of the natural man, even as Christians. They do not represent a menace to the enemy in those higher ranges, but when the cross has been so accepted and planted in our lives that the natural life is set aside - "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me"- then there is a new realm of meaning to the Lord and of meaning to the enemy, and therefore a new realm of conflict. The enemy is out to keep that side of the cross from Christians, and we have said before, and it is true, that very often you meet your opposition on that line more from Christians than from any others. It is a strange thing. Immediately you go on with the Lord into all the fullness of the meaning of Calvary you find your chief difficulty is in the realm of Christians, and, as a rule, 'official' Christians. Leaders will not have it, and you find that your way is made infinitely more difficult. It is true that the enemy does hate the fullness of the cross, and he will seek by any means to destroy its value for believers, to hide its meaning from them, and if possible to get them to forsake the position and come down from it, or to persuade them not to accept it.

Well, surely that is his testimony to its value! He is a witness to its meaning. The cross, then, is the basis of victory, and the enemy knows it very well.

I am not going further than that now. We must take this, think about it and apply it, but remember this grand, conclusive thing: Satan is a defeated foe for all who are truly one with the cross of the Lord Jesus, because Calvary does represent his defeat, and, as we are planted into the death of Christ, so we stand with Him in that defeat of the enemy, in that victory of the Lord Jesus. So, however he may rage, storm, fight, afflict, press, worry, and harass, the fact remains that for those who are one with Christ in His cross, Satan is a defeated foe.