Hell Isn't Eternal?

I talked to a pastor, whom I respect, about Hell today. He told me that Hell is not eternal because 'God is love' and Hell is a purification process. In the end, he thinks all will be saved, that God gave all mankind over to disobedience so that He might show them all His mercy. Sounds nice, but what about God's justice, holiness and righteous anger? It would make life easier if Hell was temporal at worst and everybody gets blessing and Heaven in the end. Somehow I'm suspicious of this but have no training in Greek or Hebrew and haven't researched all the scripture on it yet.I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or resources which might help me gain an understanding of Hell.

Type e-Sword into your seach engine. You can get free commentaries and this also has a Strong's lexicon for your studies.Your pastor probably doesn't believe that there is such a thing as being born again either. Unless he becomes born again, he will find out that there is a litteral hell.

Some links here;The first is a well researched series by our own Webmaster, Greg Gordon;Hell and Everlasting Punishment (article series)And a couple others:Gehenna and HadesSurvey of Hell

Not only is that doctrine resurfacing with its RCC background but many are imbracing what Ron and others mentioned months ago, the doctrine of total annihilation, basically it has 2 forms, 1) that after a short time the person in hell is totally annihilated into nothingness 2) that a person not going to heaven is totally annihilated. Both are wrong and I believe they come from JW teaching,BTW that organization has worked hard in the last 10 years to become reconized as a varient form of christianity. Not sure where that doctrine originated from but I have read some arguements against it dating back to 400-500 ad, I d guess that Justin Martry may have dealt with forms of the same in His day ? Around what 100-200 ad?

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or resources which might help me gain an understanding of Hell.Hi, you can read this thread, there are links to download the compilation and the sermon:Instant Replay - The Worm Never Dies (compilation)

First believe God and his word not man and his reasoning. First link to the Bible,get Bible in hand. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."Proverbs 30:5,6 5.Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.6.Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.Revelation 22:18,19 18.For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.Deuteronmy 12:32What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto,nor diminish from it.Sounds like God means for his word to be left alone and to stand as he has given it.things change, but God remains the same.Malachi 3:6For I am the Lord, I change not, therefore ye sons of Ja'cob are not consumed.Hebrews 13:8Je'sus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.2 Samuel 22:31As for God, his way is perfect;the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.I believe that Gods word stands forever.

Thank you for the resources crsschk & Tears_of_Joy.Your pastor probably doesn't believe that there is such a thing as being born again either. Unless he becomes born again, he will find out that there is a litteral hell.1. He isn't my pastor.2. He is born again and loves the Lord.3. Slander and judgment are not necessary.Not only is that doctrine resurfacing with its RCC background but many are imbracing what Ron and others mentioned months ago, the doctrine of total annihilationEven CS Lewis, whom believers love so much, entertained annihilationism. I'm not endorsing it. Just making the point that if Hell wasn't so cut and dry to a great mind like Lewis's, perhaps we ought to be careful before labeling people.First believe God and his word not man and his reasoning. First link to the Bible,get Bible in hand. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."I agree, and the Bible also says, "there is wisdom in an abundance of couselors." The issue is that another believer, looking at the same Word of God has drawn a totally different conclusion than I might have drawn. To top it off, he believes 'temporal punishment' is Biblical and confirmed by the Holy Spirit.Being honest, much of our theology on Hell and Satan is based on highly symbolic interpretations - a valley, worms, a serpent, a fallen king, a dragon, stars. Just trying to be intellectually honest here. Do we know Hell is eternal because that is what we have received by tradition from our forefathers, or because God has firmly established it in the Word? I'd like to be able to assemble some resources for this pastor who is correctable - a rare trait for pastors.Resources like the ones 'crsschk' and 'Tears_of_Joy' point us to are very helpful - labeling people and insinuating they are unbelievers is an area I'd rather not go. Jesus prayed that we would be one - let's not endorse division. I've seen people corrected with love and the Word, not judgment and opinion.

Mark 9:47-48 And if thine eye serve as a snare to thee, cast it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire, where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.The fire is always burning and the worms of death never die. Sounds pretty eternal to me.Re 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.In Christ: Phillip

When in doubt, I side with the words that I can easily read and understand in Scripture. I believe God preserved His word so that I can read it without knowing Hebrew or Greek, though knowing these can help:Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."Rev 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."I have heard some say that the phrase ever and ever literally means a temporary timeframe. This doesn't make sense to me in light of statements like this:Rev 11:15 "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."It seems to me that the punishment is permanent, just as Christ's reign is permanent.

Quote: Gary Your pastor probably doesn't believe that there is such a thing as being born again either. Unless he becomes born again, he will find out that there is a litteral hell. {Quote} Brian1. He isn't my pastor.2. He is born again and loves the Lord.3. Slander and judgment are not necessary.……………………………………………………………………………………………Dear Brian,Perhaps I didn’t take the time to reply to your post like I should have. As I looked closer to what you wrote, it is easy to see you didn’t say he was your pastor. Notice that I did say probably in that I did not know for sure what he believed about being born again. So he must believe in being born again to have eternal life and that there is no eternal death if a person does not get born again. Or maybe he believes something else other than this.You are right in stating that I have no right to judge his salvation as I couldn’t possibly know his heart. I don’t think I judged him in this way but it must have looked to you like I did. Maybe if I state the last sentence a different way it will be a little clearer and not sound like I am judging the pastors salvation. Unless any person becomes born again, the person who doesn’t become born again will find out that there is a literal hell whether they believe in that hell or not.By the way Brian, did you find e-sword in a search so that you can look up scriptures to bring up to the pastor? It is free and very helpful.In Christ,GaryE

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.Here in Hebrews 6:2 the words eternal judgment are speaking of everlasting damnation. If you take a Strongs lexicon and check the words out, they declare the meaning in the Greek.………………………………………………………………………………………………. Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Here in Mathew 25:46 everlasting life and everlasting punishment are in the same sentence. Again, if you look at Strongs lexicon, you see the Greek words are translated correctly. ……………………………………………………………………………………………….Dear Brian,You can find some sermons on Sermon Index on hell. One that comes to mind is the sermon by Johnathan Edwards called Divine Retribution. It is a read sermon and some people might not receive it because of the subject, but it is very good concerning the subject of hell. You may get somethings out of it that you would want to bring up to your pastor friend.

Thank you Gary,Those scriptures are very insightful. Hell sounds everlasting to me. I actually own an old PC Study Bible, I'm planning to come up with an extensive (maybe even exhaustive) list of scriptures regarding hell & eternity to present to the pastor. I'll post them here too.The next topic I'm going to be wondering about is the "Kingdom of God" and Dominion Theology - or 'Kingdom Now' Theology. That's another thread though...Brian

I once witnessed to a guy who asked me if I was a Christian after handing him a CD that had "Hell's Best Kept Secret" written in marker on it. He said, 'Let me ask you a question.' Which started a long conversation. He asked, 'Do you believe in pouring gasoline on someone and lighting them on fire.' I asked him to elaborate and we both ended up doing so.This is where the conversation ended up. He agreed that he had broken God's laws, and that we all had. He believed he was saved, and is always going to be saved (I'm not trying to start a trail on that, just telling you what he said). However, he did not believe in an eternal hell.He kept asking me how hell could be fair when it seemed so cruel, and I kept taking him back to how angry God is with sin. How we look at it lightly, but God is furious with sin. He continued to tell me 'once saved always saved.'Later, my mind brought me to Hebrews 6, which seemed to describe this man. That day it seemed that I understood that passage better after our conversation. But what really gets me when I think back to that day is the idea of being saved. We say 'saved' so often, we easily forget that we have been rescued by Christ. Pulled from the flame.So if I had the opportunity to talk to the same man, I would have asked him, after he told me hell didn't exist but he was saved, I would, of course, have asked him what he was saved from. If he replied, 'sin' I would have asked him why Jesus would go through all the torment if there was no penalty for sin. I mean really. Why go through all that terror, if there is no terror to be saved from? Saving us from the penalty of nothingness just doesn't add up. We had to be saved from something awful.It was strange to talk to someone who had no problem admitting that stealing a dime was equivalent to a million dollars, but who saw hell as just cruel. You could really see his emotions well up at the idea of a man burning for eternity, even though we had a friendly conversation.Just and instance of the belief that 'Jesus saves but there is no hell' theology that I ran into on the streets.His name was Rule if anyone would like to pray that God continue to convict him and bring him to repentance.

Jude 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. So, is Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? Jude 7 implies as much. Next question, belief in Christ is essential to salvation, is belief in hell also essential? If so why do none of the historic creeds mention it?I don't really believe that the verses that speak of everlasting fire are any more literal than Jude 7, but having said that I also admit that my beliefs in this area are just that, my beliefs.

The Bible speaks of everlasting destruction for those who do not know Jesus.2 Thessalonians 16God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

jimbob,Here is hell mentioned in the creed.The Apostle's CreedI believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.He descended into hell. The third day He arose again from the dead.He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.Amen.*The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.Look at different verions at:http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/apostles.htm

I think the key to this discussion, which hasn't been mentioned yet, is the actual Greek words (Aion and Aionios) that are often translated, "eternal," "forever," "forever and ever," etc. Upon closer examination, it seems clear that these are inaccurate translations of the actual Greek terms. Check out what G. Campbell Morgan had to say about it..."In passing, and in connection with the great theme which we are only touching upon, let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our 'eternal,' which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is- 'unto the ages of ages,' which does not literally mean eternally. Let us, however, remember that the self-same word, which is thus used in connection with the existence of God, is also applied to the loss of the human soul. Men have divided the Church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible. But who shall grasp 'the ages of ages,' or say that when a limit is reached, if limit there be, it is not that other ages upon ages may be born? God is subject to no limitation, and our finite thought must utterly fail to fathom the ages which He inhabits. We have no right to dogmatize upon anything beyond what is written; nor should we use a human word to express Divine things in the great future, concerning which we know so little."(God's Methods With Man, pp. 185-186)

LGB, What I meant is the creeds don't say "we believe in hell everlasting and eternal burning torment for unbelivers" or something to that effect. And thanks for the heads up on the "Catholic" thing, I'll remember that this Sunday at the Eucharist when I recite the Nicene Creed. ;-) BTW does anyone know exactly what they meant by "He descended into hell"? I know Peter said Jesus made proclamation to the spirits in prison, but was that hell?

letsgetbusy,Very good posts. I agree when you start interpreting Scripture to mean exactly what it doesnt say then rest assured you're wrong. To dispute, One Scripture, ok, i can see arguing that...but hundres all over the Book? No thanks. By the way someone asked about Jesus going down to hell. Gehenna is Hell, He didnt go there, He went to Hades, which is the abode of the dead. That's a common misunderstanding.

Safe to say that if Hell isnt permanent then Heaven isnt either. so what are you going to do after Heaven is "over"?

IS HELL-FIRE ETERNAL?Here is a very good thread on this topic.

sj wrote:letsgetbusy,Very good posts. I agree when you start interpreting Scripture to mean exactly what it doesnt say then rest assured you're wrong. To dispute, One Scripture, ok, i can see arguing that...but hundres all over the Book? No thanks. There aren't "hundreds" of bible verses that speak of eternal torment in flames of fire, very few actually and they are in very symbolic passages.But since so many on these forums insist on literal interpretation of symbolic language in the bible, lets take this line of reasoning to the next logical step;Deut. 32:11 "...He spread His wings and caught them, He carried them on His pinions."Ps. 94:4 " He will cover you with His pinions, and under His wings you may seek refuge;"Exo. 6:5 "And furthermore I have heard the groaning of the sons of Israel, because the Egyptians are holding them in bondage; and have REMEMBERED My covenant." Psalm 13:1 "How long, o Lord? Wilt thou FORGET me forever?" 2 Sam. 2:2 " ...The Lord is my rock an my fortress..."Dan. 7:9 "...And the Ancient of days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames..."I could go on quoting verses like this all day, but here is my point; according to a strictly literal hermeneutic we could deduce the following about God:He is a very old and sometimes forgetful stone that is covered with feathers. I for one do not hold to the "literal" interpretation of scripture. The bible is FULL of symbolism and metaphor, and also contains poetry, allegory, typology and hyperbole. Why should I dogmatically believe that God would want keep a fire going eternally to torment people? If you say "because the bible says so!" please reference the above verses.

I know that hell is eternalDom

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deltadom wrote:I know that hell is eternalDom Gee, I guess that settles it then... :-?

bro jimbobI could go on quoting verses like this all day, but here is my point; according to a strictly literal hermeneutic we could deduce the following about God:He is a very old and sometimes forgetful stone that is covered with feathers.I for one do not hold to the "literal" interpretation of scripture. The bible is FULL of symbolism and metaphor, and also contains poetry, allegory, typology and hyperbole.i suppose then you don't hold to a literal interpretation of genesis? i know you don't hold to a literal interpretation of revelation from previous discussions.if the Lord's hair is white as wool and his throne ablaze with flames, and He is a rock and fortress, what is it to us? if it makes Him any less God in our book then the "God" we worship is no God at all but an idol of our own making. you know i feel the revelation to be literal, most would think me foolish because it somehow doesn't jive with who or what they think God is, it's not logical perhaps? God is God and He is All-Sovereign. He does as He pleases and judges as He pleases. if the Lord saw fit to wipe out the whole earth in a flood and then chooses to pour out the worst judgements ever on this generation (the revelation ones) wiping out a large portion of humanity and then condemning those who reject Him to hell to suffer for ever, who can tell Him He is wrong? will you? can anyone then pull down his lifted arm? can you do it? can any thinker or philosopher convince Him He is wrong and should reconsider? could you do that? is there anyone or any angel, demon, or being with that sort of influence in heaven that could cause the Lord in some way to do anything other than what He has purposed? can you? hey, i can't so i'm not even gonna fool with that, all i say is "Lord do whatever you must"Why should I dogmatically believe that God would want keep a fire going eternally to torment people? If you say "because the bible says so!" please reference the above verses.if you don't want to believe that then don't. like dom says "i know hell is eternal" so do i and that settles it for me.either dom, myself and those others who hold to this belief are wrong or you are. may the Lord expose who is wrong, rebuke and correct them to His glory.AMEN.

I'm in the process of listing every scripture I can find related to sheol, hades, hell, punishment, eternal, eternity, judgment, age, ages, etc. - so far I'm up to 40 pages of info. I'll post a PDF for anyone interested, soon...One interesting observation so far, if 'eternal' really is only a period of time, would that make God only temporary? Hebrews 9:14 ...how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? In the meantime, I know (hopefully) that none of us desire to misrepresent God. Still, I can't help but wonder, which viewpoint would do more damage if it were wrong - an eternal or a temporal/annihilationist Hell?If I teach an eternal Hell and am wrong, what's the damage? Perhaps I'd make God out to be more harsh, fearful and vengeful than He really is. If I teach a temporal/annihilationist Hell and am wrong, what's the damage? Those banking on love, mercy, termination, purification or a time period of punishment will instead be faced with an eternity of torment. How could I give an account to God for this? "Sorry God, I couldn't comprehend your justice..."Is this a reasonable concern? A non-eternal Hell is no little thing. I shudder at being wrong.

I was referred to this by another member. Family Bible Fellowship - Alternative Views of HellThis guy makes some interesting arguments:I think it is a good idea to be fair-minded in considering alternative views of hell. This is one of the more recent changes I have made in my own theology. I have known of three defensible views of hell for almost 20 years, but was pretty stuck on defending the traditional view (eternal torment)...partly because I grew up thinking of this view as a litmus test for conservative evangelicalism. I have recently been more willing to release my grip on this traditional view as the biblical evidence has become overwhelming. I am aware of two biblically defensible alternatives to the "eternal torment" view of hell. One is the universalist view, and the other is the conditional immortality view (annihilationism). Over the years, my studies have convinced me that the eternal torment view has very little biblical basis, and depends heavily on poor exegetical practices and mistranslations of relevant biblical terminology. Of the two alternatives, I find the universalist position to be the more attractive, but the annihilationist view somewhat better supported in scripture. I realize that I could be wrong, but this is my present leaning. Christian universalism and annihilationism both teach that there is a hell of punishment for those who die faithless, but they believe that the punishment is not eternal, but proportional (in the case of annihilationism) or else remedial (in the case of universalism). According to annihilationism, souls are not naturally immortal, and after the lost have been appropriately punished, they will pass into non-existence. According to universalism, all who are punished in hell will eventually be brought to repentance, and thereby reconciled to God. The main arguments for universalism seem to be: 1. God desires all people to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4/ John 3:16/ Ezek.18:23, 32) 2. Christ died to redeem the whole world (John 1:29/ 1 John 2:2/ 1 Tim.2:6) 3. The Bible sometimes speaks of universal salvation and restoration (1 Tim.4:10/ Rom.5:18-19/ Col.1:19-20/ Eph. 1:9-10/ John 12:32) 4. If Christ desires that all be saved, and paid for their redemption, but, because of the devil's resistance to this, billions of people are nonetheless lost, then this makes God and Christ the cosmic, eternal losers and the devil the winner, which seems to go against many biblical statements (1 John 4:4/ Heb.2:14/ 1 John 3:8/ Col. 2:15/ Isa.42:1-4). 5. This was believed by many in the early church. Of the six main Christian schools known to exist in the first four centuries, four taught universalism (Alexandria, Edessa, Antioch and Caesarea); one taught annihilationism (Ephesus); and one taught eternal torment (Rome). 6. If this view is correct, it would be the one of the three that would cause the most rejoicing in heaven among God and the saints. The arguments for conditional immortality (annihilationism) are principally as follows: 1. Only God possesses immortality by nature (1 Tim.6:16); 2. Men do not possess immortality naturally, and the soul can be destroyed (Matt.10:28); 3. Men must "seek" immortality (Rom.2:7); 4. God gives immortality (eternal life) to men on the basis of their faith in Him (John 3:16/ 10:28/ Rom.6:23/ 1 John 5:11-12); 5. The fate of the lost is generally described using terms such as "death," "destruction," "consumed" and "perish" (Matt. 10:28/ 1 Thess. 5:3/ 2 Thess.1:9; 2:8/ John 3:16/ Rom.2:12/ etc.). 6. The view that men are naturally immortal is not taught in either Testament of the Bible, but it was a view of the ancient Greeks, prior to and since New Testament times. Some say it is a pagan idea that was introduced into Christian theology by the Greek fathers, and exploited by the Medieval Church to "keep people in line.". Problems with the eternal torment view include the following: 1. All the passages of scripture upon which it is based (and there are only a few) are found in apocalyptic contexts, where symbolism is a common phenomenon; 2. The Bible nowhere says that unsaved people live forever; 3. God never warned Adam and Eve (or anyone else) that, if they were to sin, they would be eternally tormented, but only that they would die (e.g. Gen.2:17/ Ezek.18:4/ Rom.6:23), which would be a misleading understatement, if the traditional view is correct; 4. Eternal punishment for temporal crimes seems unjust even by God's stated standards of justice (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth). A debt or penalty that takes forever to repay will never be fully repaid, and there can never be any final justice or resolution of the problem of sin in the universe; 5. The Bible speaks of degrees of punishment of the wicked (e.g. Matt.10:22, 24/ Luke 12:47-48). If all sinners suffer eternally, then all receive equally infinite (not proportionate) punishment; 6. If men are not immortal by nature, what motive, apart from vindictiveness and cruelty, could God have for supernaturally keeping sinners alive forever, without any hope of eventual relief or rehabilitation? Does such a motivation agree with the picture of the merciful and loving God found in scripture?; 7. How could God and the saints rejoice in eternity knowing that their loved ones were all the while, in another part of the universe, experiencing endless torture and agony? Now, if the Bible somewhere clearly taught that the fate of the wicked is to be endless torment (as I once thought it did), then we would have to simply ignore these objections and say, by sheer loyalty, "But notwithstanding these things, I believe that God is just in tormenting people for eternity" (as I used to say). My further studies of the scriptures, in general, and of the few verses upon which I once based my belief in eternal torment, in particular, have moved me away from my confidence that such a doctrine ever was taught in scripture. It was an effective tool for keeping the masses loyal to the church in the Middle Ages, and seems consistent with such a "God" as was presented in Medieval Christianity. However, I can no longer confidently assert that it is the doctrine of scripture, nor that it portrays the same God as He who was revealed in the Lord Jesus Christ. Can we critique his arguments? I have to ask myself, "do I fear changing my theology/tradition?" If we honestly seek the truth, we will find it. Growing,Brian