Is it wrong to speak out against church abuse?

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The Word says not to recieve an accusation against an elder. I supose in offenses the best model is the cross carrying Christ and a strong prayer life. Ask God for wisdom, it might just be a character building experience.As to you illustration on rape. I want to caution you on doing as the world does. They take a cause, place a spin init like some kind of remote 1 in a million setting, an example would be the lawsuit placed by an aids victim who was fired by an employer because of the discovery of a gay lifestyle, and they build thier arguement from there. They get sympathy from the gerenal public for thier underlying cause by making the hero the one and the bad guy the other. Don't do that.I would probably seek out mature christian believers who you can pray with and possiblly a christian (I hate to use the term) counsilor.

Is it wrong to speak out against church abuse?The answer to this question is "yes", and "no". Not only that, there are many different ways that we can address it - good ways and bad ways. There are a lot of considerations. Control, manipulation, and domination are always wrong, and we need to learn to recognize it. God has never called any of us to defend a sick, abusive system, or protect the unrepentant spirual leader. Doing so only enables this sin to continue and harm many others. We must learn to recognize our own part of this problem and take appropriate measures. Also, we need to be aware of our own tendencies to assert ourselves over others - try to control them. It is a very subtle thing that most of us are not even aware of. The prophets, Jesus, and also the apostles spoke against spiritual abuse. However, as you know, there were serious repercussions for them all. Before addressing it, I'd suggest that you gain a good understanding of it. Here are some websites: Spiritual Abuse: An IntroductionSpriitual Abuse: Recovery ResourcesI recommend you read Jeff VanVonderan" book, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" There is a cost to healing, as Scripture reveals - the old system wants to "spit" you out. However, the rewards are eternal, and well worth it - it is the path to Christ's FREEDOM. And God will use you to help many others be set free. May God bless you as you seek him for guidance and strength in the days ahead. Diane

The last post addressed spiritual (church) abuse in general. Here are some more specific answers to your specific questions you, your family and many others you know were seriously hurt by an abusive church is it a sin to say anything publicly because that would damage their reputation? The reason for this “law” is sinful in itself – a cover-up attempt. However, that doesn’t mean that speaking out is totally to be condoned. The Bible gives procedures: one at a time, then with two, then publicly... many other factors to consider. If you were to hear someone speaking about these issues, do you believe it is healthy to force the person expressing themselves to separate the pain of the experience from the experience? Actually, quite the opposite: it is unhealthy! what would you think of the person who criticized a rape victim for crying while they testified against the person who did it? A calloused person Would they be right for asking the person to be more objective? The assumption in this request is that crying implies the lack of objectivity. That is a false judgment. If there were NO feelings, that could be a lack of “objectivity” - think of sociopaths. They have no feeling. If not why do we offer people who are suffering from spiritual rape less compassion? It's like the first thing you're told is "get over it. and dont say anything until you do." Why is that? Again, a very calloused answer. I think fear may be an issue here –fear of having to empathize with such depth of pain... Fear of experiencing one’s own hidden pain via the “victim”. Also, through years of exposure, something doesn't feel wrong anymore. So, being violated spiritually is no big deal. The conscience gets dead to these things after a while, and feelings go away. The bible calls this "seering" of the consceince. Empathy is gone. The hardened heart can no longer can "weep with those who are weeping, and rejoice with those who rejoice" Rom. 12: Also, do you believe that truth outweighs position? Always, but that doesn’t give a subordinate the freedom to say what they think. There are many factors. Consider the importance of EARNING the right to speak, building trust. . ..a brand new member has the authority to rebuke a pastor if the pastor is clearly in Sciptural error? Rebuke can mean a lot of things. It may mean simply setting a good example. Have you ever felt rebuked by someone else’s good example. (ex: you think, wow!, I’m sure not that loving , and I should be) Consider the need for applying truth in love. What Scriptures would you use to support your point of view on any of these topics. There are many scriptures that speak of our relationships with others, and authorities our patience, etc Consider 1 Corithians 13: The Love Chapter. A good study: Give to Ceaser what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s. In other words, give to any leader what is rightfully theirs (our respect, service, etc) but NOT our hearts, our trust – that belongs to God. Knowing the difference is a challenge. Diane

My pastor once told me a story about an evangelist that was visiting a particular church for a long series revival (roughly a month long). One of the older ladies in that church discerned quickly the man wasn't much when it came to prayer, and she asked him to join the women praying at midnight in the sancturary, and there he would truly learn to pray. So, they got him nice and saturated in prayer, and he indeed drew closer to God than he had ever been in his entire life. The next day when he stood up in the pulpit, God had him start talking about the story of Natahn and David after David had killed Uriah and taken his wife. He was telling the story of how Nathan came and told David a parable which moved David to anger. And when David was moved to anger, Nathan blurted out "Thou art that man!" Then the evangelist through a word of knowledge went walking down the isle and said, "God has shown me that there is somebody in this church that is running the place like he is a CEO and this is his business. God says that this is his church and you will no longer manipulate his people any longer." He came to place in the isle, stoped, and pointed to one of the elders and said, "thou art that man!" The elder got angry and went to attack the preacher, and immediately the Spirit of God came on that man and flattened him to the ground. The man tried to get up, but was unable to. God really convicted him, and the man crawled all the way from his seat up to the altar and cried out, "OH GOd, have mercy on me a sinner!" And it is reported at that time a powerful move of God broke out right there in the congregation. Nobody is above rebuke and correction. There is a biblical way of doing things, and we must follow that. However, not even leaders are above rebuke from the "layity." There are times when this process however, is not heeded by the congregation out of a sense of timidity, or where secret sins are done. In such times, God sends his Nathan's into the church to expose those in error. E.g. Peter with Ananias and Saphira.

I have been in churches where spiritual abuse has happened. But it didnt happen to me (tho they tried) because I was able to discern what was happening, and we just simply left. I hate to put it like this, but I think most who are spiritually abused allow themselves to be because they do not know the scriptures. They are not students of the WordI like what Krispy is saying here.It is my experience that most 'spiritual abuse" is passive aggressive...that is they don't conquer you by physical force. Instead, spiritual authority can often create a cult-like atmosphere of control through flattery at first, and then bargains of extra power for extra loyalty and obedience, or conversely...effective condemnation for disloyalty. (I realize am grossly generalizing...)More often then not, it is our celebrity worship of pastors and prophets that gets us, and them, into trouble.When I realized I had allowed myself to be subjugated in an unhealthy manner, I had to admit that I became snared through some character fault of my own...these experiences can be painful learning lessons about my own immaturity, spiritual ambition, and idolatry. The bottom line is that, in a socitey that offers many choices for church, the only way a pastor can have abusive power over his people is if they want him to.Note that I am commenting about subtle emotional (and financial) control specifically. I do realize that emotional control can sometimes be a prelude to physical or sexual seduction. If there is physical force or sexual activity involved, the matter becomes much more black and white in my perspective. There is simply too much sexual wickedness being protected in church boardrooms at the expense of little sheep that need a safe place to graze. When I think about these issues, I realize how difficult it is to be a really good elder or pastor, or teacher. Church leadership requires mature men and women who are examples to the flock… an inspiration who does not inspire cult-worship. I am so very thankful to God for good men and women who fill leadership roles, yet I realize that they are also fragile vessels that need my faithful prayer!MC

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Here is a past discussion with accompanying links that may be of some help and counsel. Could not recommend more highly the messages mentioned there from Stephen Kaung on spiritual authority.What isn't "Speaking against God's annointed"

Jesus rebuked people that he had never "earned" a right to speak too. So did John the Baptist. In fact that's what got them killed wasn’t it?I'm totally with you on this one! There are times when we simply will never "earn" the right in the eyes of the abusers (or their colaborators). We will be silenced - told to keep our mouth shut. (My how handy a lot of verses are for justifying this kind of ungodly rebuke.) However, I do believe that God can lead the way when we must speak out. He can open the door. He can also close the door and instead remove us from the situation. I did mention the need to take our own responsibility if we are the victim. But I also caution: It is all to easy to say to someone who has been devestated by abuse, "You should know better. Just don't put up with it. Get over it..." These kind of comments express a gross inability to understand the suffering of the victim and their 'role' in the abuse. I find that spiritual abuse is virtually NEVER discussed in church - or even the concepts. If churches would only listen to the therapists of those who have been damaged by the church, they could learn so much, and prevent a lot of damage.It's been said that the church keeps psychiatrists in business. Some churches are healthier than others and I think it has to do with a lot of hidden relational/spiritual dynamics going on - maybe even for generations. Also, as Krispy implied, GOOD DOCTIRNE IS HEALTHY FOR EVERYONE. Sadly people take their dysfunctions into the church and spread it like a disease. Then they make the bible say whatever they want to justify and hide their faulty behaviors. Almost no one believes that they have bad doctrine. And almost no one believes that they are a perpetrator of abuse. I don't see mentioned yet the reality of power structure. Sorry to say, but the ground is not level. There are people who simply cannot stand against the abuse of those who hold power and authority - like a child and parent. Indeed, the child may be part of the problem, but they are dependants. They can't just leave or even challenge the problem because that would too threatening. It is like that in any institution. You mentioned large groups being a safer environment because that avoids the emeshment that can foster abuse. But I would like to challenge that. People in the pupit can use their power, authority, and charisma to heap very suble abuse on eveyone - and lay guilt trips - ex: to get people to tithe, join, trust in THEIR teachings, and far worse. (example.... oh, I better not mention a name) Of course some adherants are more vulnerable than others - depending on their own spiritual/emotional state. Sadly, countless people are very willingly submitting themselves to the manipulation of a very charismatic type of leader. Imagine all the pain that they will encounter when they realize that they were decieved. We need to learn how to be instruments of healing. You can tell that I have experienced some spiritual abuse in my past, and that is why I am passionate about addressing this topic. Let's keep it going. I believe that the "beast" in Revelation will be an abuser - seducing the masses to follow him. Another reason to keep the topic going. Diane

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About "not naming names" i know you said that in jest, but in all seriousness what's the problem with doing that? If I understand the original purpose for this thread it was to seek helpful suggestions for victims of abuse. Now I'm wondering if you asked because you are giving us a test - to see if we have the "right" answers. Yes, I left off any name (like one that popped into my mind) for a definite reason: because of the tendency of the reader to focus on that person rather than the problem we are discussing here. We would do far better to learn about the nature of spiritual abuse (ie damaging misuse of power) than merely name names. That way we can see it for what it is and avoid the lure. Even better than that: we need to understand human nature, ourselves.. see our bent to be part of this problem in religion. Better yet: Read Mike's attatchments and learn about Godly authority so that we can discern ungodly authority. I got stated in them - delicious stuff! Even better yet: we need to learn how to make Christ our ultimate authority in our lives. That is the best way to avoid the lure of abusers.Oh, how could I forget: We need to learn how to effectively minister to those who have been damaged by authority figures of any kind. DianePS: just curious.... how do you feel about the links I suggested... helpful????

About "not naming names" i know you said that in jest, but in all seriousness what's the problem with doing that?There is no problem with that, in fact I think it is a necessity. It helps to warn other to be extra leery of those whose names have been named. If names are named other might not be drawn in so far as to be spiritually raped as you put it. Wouldn't you want to know if a sex offender just released from prison moved in next door or down the street. Well the same thing goes for those spiritual rapists who are running churches and ministries in the name of Jesus. And also, I have seen people wake up to the deception they were under when names have been mentioned. A while back I saw that happen to a guy on another forum who said "T.D. Jakes! - Oh my! I would have never thought you were talking about him! I love that guy me and him are hommies! I will definitely check out and research what you say!"a couple of posts later -"I checked it out and you are right - that's it I'm done with TBN forever - I'm never going to watch that station again!!!" Praise the Lord!!!! Now what if the person making the original post was too cowardly to name names? This guy would still be thinking him and Jakes are hommies and watching TBN every night.No friend, to name names is imperative and necessary. Name are always mentioned in the Scriptures unless everyone knows who is being spoken of (like the guy who was sleeping with his fathers wife in the Corinthian Church - everyone knew who was being spoken of - or I can assure you their would have been a name) In order to follow the Biblical pattern we must name names so that everyone know who we are talking about.If any of you read my last post (the one that was pulled) I'm sure you realize my name is mud right now, because of some of the stuff i said, but I'd rather have it no other way because if I'm wrong then bless God at least I'm not a coward. I sure hope you post wasn't pulled because of names you mentioned. I have seen numerous names mentioned here on sermonindex (Olsen, Katz, Warren, Reidhead, Bickle, Joyner, Comfort, Robertson, Graham, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.) if there is some new rule against speaking about specific people or ministries, I lost the memo. Now most of these discussion were concerning the Scriptural validity of doctrinal issues and the such. But if one was to have first hand knowledge of any ministry or teacher/preacher, I can't imagine the moderators of this site pulling the post. Did you receive any explanation of why your post pulled? If it was how you said it that was at issue, I would encourage to repost the names and ministry in a format that is more acceptable to the sites moderators. The moderators (in my experience) have always been willing to discuss such issues.

Quote:if there is some new rule against speaking about specific people or ministries, I lost the memo. Now most of these discussion were concerning the Scriptural validity of doctrinal issues and the such. But if one was to have first hand knowledge of any ministry or teacher/preacher, I can't imagine the moderators of this site pulling the post. Did you receive any explanation of why your post pulled? If it was how you said it that was at issue, I would encourage to repost the names and ministry in a format that is more acceptable to the sites moderators. The moderators (in my experience) have always been willing to discuss such issues.I don't know what this is about, but I preceive/discern that the reason why I am still at work is for this particular post.If i offended you in any way please forgive me, and if by my signature I stirred up something, the Lord knows why I signed my previous post the way that I did. I may sign on under several different names, but I am still the same person, and I love everyone and you very much. God is not interested in our past as much as he is interested in our present and especially in our FUTURE, AMEN AND AMEN...God Bless You,-Angie

If i offended you in any way please forgive me, and if by my signature I stirred up something, the Lord knows why I signed my previous post the way that I did.You have not offended me in any way at all. I can't find you previous post (maybe your post was deleted too) and don't know what post you are talking about. I was specifically talking about SJ's reference to naming names when it comes to harmful or deceptive ministries or teachers. And SJ's reference to one of his posts being deleted. That he may find out why to avoid any confusion or problems in the future and still live up to his responsibilities to bring to light what he has experienced by name.Sorry for any confusion ;-)

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I may feel some agression against what i now percive to be a false pressure to be silent about abusive situations but I'm NOT mad at you. I'm not even mad AT these people.Whew! Has a bit wave has hit me? I'm not sure where we are going. Earlier I loosely added in a parenthesis about not naming a name and it seems that by trying to avoid a distraction, I inadvertently created a distraction. I'm a bit confused why you asked your original question when it seems that you are already have strong convictions about this.Perhaps we are thinking of different situations. This is a vast topic after all. EDIT: I suspect that there are better alternatives to "speaking out against sinners" And that is to deal with ourselves, give ourselves to God and grow in our own faith. A strong offense is a good defence. seriuosly, they are bound. Do you mean us? If you feel this way about us, then, we may not be the best ones to help you out. Perhaps there is another forum that would better meet your needs. Also, if you feel we are "bound" then I'm afraid there are barriers to developing trust. We won't be able to help you. Perhaps if you get to know us, you might find that some here have been gloriously set free by our precious Savior!!!!! So please keep giving your advise, and dont be thrown off by my questioningI will address this in prayer, but at the moment, have no more words or links to offer. I know that the Spririt will guide you as you seek him for guidance. God bless you. Diane

I don't see mentioned yet the reality of power structure. Sorry to say, but the ground is not level. There are people who simply cannot stand against the abuse of those who hold power and authority - like a child and parent. Indeed, the child may be part of the problem, but they are dependants. They can't just leave or even challenge the problem because that would too threatening. It is like that in any institution.Diane, I would like to add to your important comment about structure. The larger problem as I see it is certainly more systemic then personality driven. In my anecdotal experience with church abuse, abusive personalities are attracted, indeed even shaped, by unbiblical government structures. For a manual on how to build an abusive church power structure see Peter Wagner’s book “Churchquake”. (I have brought this book up before, but I think it warrants a mention in this thread.) Sadly, the book is helpful only as a “via negative” of good church polity, a how-to manual for building a horrible church governing structure. In it's pages you will probably recognize familiar and hurtful concepts being advocated as biblical and “apostolic.” Wagner, and his “apostolic reformers” advocate giving unilateral control of doctrine, finances, and mission to a single “charismatic” leader. The book recommends that these pastors create printouts of top financial donors and reward them with perquisites like special banquets and trips, as well as inviting them into the “inner courts” of influence with the ‘elders and prophets.” ("A good pastor knows his sheep!" pg.261…sigh)Now I mention this book not to point a finger at Wagner…but as he is a professor of Church Growth at Fuller Theological Seminary and a popular author, I think his ideas embody a very disturbing trend among professional Christians who pastor our independent churches. Independent and charismatic churches are too often designed with a radical lack of accountability to reliable spiritual peers, such as qualified elders within the local body. In my experience spiritual abusers never endorse transparency…they build opacity into their lonely office. They may claim they have accountability but it is never within the local body…instead it is from another ‘apostle” outside and beyond the reach of the church. The idea of a plurality of elders is strictly prohibited in this all too popular model for church governance. Even though I seem to be complaining about the “man” in charge, I would like to restate that it is the system that fosters this. Let me give an illustration from my own household. A few years ago we took in two cats. Recently some visitors pointed out that our two cats have grown as fat as beavers! My wife and I noticed their growth but we never seemed to be as shocked at the sight of their girth like visitors are. Last week, my mother in law observed the root of the problem…she noticed that all of us, from my wife to the kids were feeding the cats randomly without any agreed upon plan or structure. A cat would simply have to brush up against my leg and I would pop open a can of tuna! (Add to their diet the occasional mouse or bird...) Now that I understand this problem I feel badly, for in another house these same cats would be much healthier.I think my two full-figured felines demonstrate how even good-intentioned pastors can grow sleek and fat over time without boundaries. Many Christians are all too happy to "serve" stronger leaders who prophecy without accountability structures, raise money without accountability structures, create doctrine without accountability structures, counsel privately without accountability structures, and create missions without accountability structures. In the end I like to talk about systems more then people…critiquing impersonal systems is easier on the conscience of those who are too cautious to critique a leader. We can more readily talk about systemic issues without feeling judgmental towards a pastor…who may very well be unaware how easy it is to become fat living off of the sheep. MC

In the end I like to talk about systems more then people…critiquing impersonal systems is easier on the conscience of those who are too cautious to critique a leader. We can more readily talk about systemic issues without feeling judgmental towards a pastor…who may very well be unaware how easy it is to become fat living off of the sheep Talking about systems also helps one see their own role in it. It defrays the hostility towards perpetrators, as they too are victims of a force far bigger. This facilitates mercy and forgiveness rather than tarring and feathering. I am grieved about the direction PW et al have taken, yet not surprised. As you say, it is not the one person who is leading it, it is a far bigger system that is sweeping away so many of our fine leaders. Absolutely NO ONE is immune. Some years ago (around 1996) I found this whole movement very refreshing – truly a move of the Spirit, I believe – freeing many from old moldy religious traditions – opening up the reality of the Spirit – promises of New Covenant. I suspect we saw the preliminaries of revival back then. But then the movement became an idolatrous object in itself, with the leaders being put in places far above where they should have been. I could list all kinds of names, authors, and heroes. I have several of their books on my shelves right now. I believe that many of their writings back then were truly inspired of God. I am not prepared to throw out those books. However, for one reason or another so much of the good stuff got hijacked – for various reasons. Now I find myself going back to the oldie-goldies. And that may be what attracted me to SI in the first place. You know, one would think that the tragedies of the Shepherding Movement was the needed lesson – but it seems not. It is being repeated, and blessed by our highest religious authorities! Yikes! We don’t learn well, do we, from other people’s failures. We just repeat them. You paralleled you fat cats to ‘fat” pastors. I think that there is another analogy there – and that is fat sheep (though starved nutritionally). They are feeding from TV Christian celebrities and many others, not seeing that they are being set up for manipulation and painful abuse down the road. The pastor in their church is only one of many influences, but may very well be a cog in the bigger system, enablied by all those who have an appetite for religous stuffing. So no one really knows where the sheep are getting all their food, or what is steering their minds – which are crammed full of religious stuffing. But if you offer them a carrot, they have no appetite for such a thing. People know that our modern churches are in trouble. And that is a temptation for this “feeding frenzy’. People are “trying” out all kinds of new methods that promise the pot of gold: revival. About accountability of pastors: I have seen this all the time: They claim that they are accountable to someone “above them” in the hierarchal ranks – like someone at head office several hundred miles away, someone who only sees them in their suits at convention. I’ve been to such events and know first hand that it is all to easy to ignore the crying, dying, crippled sheep huddled in the corners of their churches, and instead use them as pawns to build their own kingdoms. So where is this accountability going to come from? Our religious community is in danger of building another Roman Church in an attempt to restore the rapidly falling structures. As much as people speak against the RCC, many are all to eager to replace it with another: big buildings, where we all speak one language, reaching to the heavens.… sound familiar? But then, is that not what Scripture prophesies will happen in the end times? It hits all too close to home, doesn’t it?Diane

One point that I believe needs to be taken into consideration here is the fact that abuse likely does not have it's beginnings in the church but in family/cultural systems - even in relational patterns that go back several generations. For example: In prewar Germany the view of authority was this: the Father is the HEAD of this house. Kids, do as he says, do not question authority. stern, lack of feelings... tenderness.. empathy, blind obedience at all times... Years later during the post-war trials the accused defended their actions by saying, "We were just obeying orders". So abuse begets abuse.... victims become abusers... Diane

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I've almost totally changed my mind from the concept that the "one man show pastor is the problem if we had plurality of elders things like this wouldn’t happen!" Because this church DOES have plurality of elders "in fact they are on the cutting edge of that whole movement...Indeed brother...I think we are actually seeing the same dynamic. Like I commented earlier, this kind of pastor claim local accountability...such as through the elders they have selected. More often then not these elders have been chosen through the sole discretion of the pastor, and instead of acting like a loving accountability structure, they function as a "hedge of protection" against the sheep. (Local "prophets and prophetesses" are elevated in much the same manner...)edit: Elders need to be recognized as functioning leaders before they are given the titles.Let's discuss modern elders for a second. I've recognized a pattern that many elders are not selected for their spiritual seasoning, but often they are businessmen or professional administrators selected for their loyalty to the pastor. So rather then demonstrating a desire to "be an example to the flock" or matured in scriptural areas of serving others, they prize eldership as a personal commendation. The problem with all of this is that these elders are not able to lead the flock during times of pastoral incapacity. Indeed, their presence in a meeting is regarded as superfluous, and people seeking strong ministry from a leader often prefer the pastor to all others. In a recent church I attended, when the pastor ran off with one of the prophetesses, the elders were helpless to run the church...primarily because they were not properly related to the body in the first place. Being tolerated as yes men in easier times had rendered them objects of mistrust during a crisis. Yet because of their " apostolic training" they too rejected accountability from leaders selected from the body and ultimately the entire church fell apart. The living stones became the rolling stones, as our church family was scattered. Now the building is completely remineralized with a new pastor and new people.All of this stands in contrast, I believe, to the tantalizing peek at first century leadership we see in Acts 6. In that chapter we see apostolic peers conferring with one another on how to handle financial resources within the local body. In order to protect their spiritual lives with the Lord, they ask the local body to select men who have established themselves trustworthy to handle the temporal affairs of the community. SJ, I sincerely doubt the dubious pastors we once served under would have even understood this passage of scripture.MC

Talking about systems also helps one see their own role in it. It defrays the hostility towards perpetrators, as they too are victims of a force far bigger. This facilitates mercy and forgiveness rather than tarring and feathering.Very well stated Diane. This really is a healthy outlook on the issue. My uncle teaches at a seminary and I notice none of the students I’ve met there express ambitions to be a “super-pastor”. They start out idealistic and sincere…but once out of school learn that most churches want their pastors to be all-powerful spiritual giants. I still wince when I hear the mistaken maxim, “A church can only go as far as it’s pastor.” As I mentioned earlier, when I realized I had been laboring in a cult-like environment, I had to admit I was blind to its excesses because I was blind to my own need for those excesses. How many husbands who are abuse ”victims” loved to be at church clapping hands and shouting amen to the pastors message, more then spending time with their families, being available to their children or wives? How many wives who are abuse victims secretly coveted the “spiritual vitality” of the pastor while holding their own husbands weary souls in disdain? And how many parents pridefully allow their children to be taught to desire the gifts of the spirit before they have learned to exhibit the fruits of the spirit?And once I started opening my eyes abit I was absolutely at odds with leadership who wanted to simply “repair” the damage, or “restore” the office of the pastor…. I felt like the proper word was “reform” because the real culprit was the structure set up in the first place.About accountability of pastors: I have seen this all the time: They claim that they are accountable to someone “above them” in the hierarchal ranks – like someone at head office several hundred miles away, someone who only sees them in their suits at convention.Sounds like you and I were in the same church….abuse likely does not have its beginnings in the church but in family/cultural systems - even in relational patterns that go back several generations.For example: In prewar Germany the view of authority was this: the Father is the HEAD of this house. Kids, do as he says, do not question authority. stern, lack of feelings... tenderness.. empathy, blind obedience at all times...This statement is helpful for two reasons. One, it correctly observes the problem is not a “church” condition, but a human condition. Secondly, it suggests that once we discover idol worship in our own hearts towards church leadership, we would do well to ask what type of idol worship might we be giving to our political and business leaders? Diane since you are an accomplished musician let me share a more personal note along this line of thought. During the worst days of my former church family crisis, I found the best expression for my sadness not in the sugary praise pop of Christian music, but in the lament of the Soviet composer Dimitri Shostakovich. (I admit it’s melodramatic, but such broken mirrors are cheaper then therapy for me :knockedout: ) Governments, such as the former Soviet Union, can build systems where idol worship of men replace religious faith and family ties on a mass scale, leading to crimes of historic proportions! I mention this to reinforce what you have observed…religious excess seems so common in my own country that perhaps the problem is not religious but one of national character. Christians in America imagine themselves descended from a pilgrim heritage of spiritual independence, but in reality we want to see John Wayne in the pulpit before we’ll commit to a church.In the end, Diane I think you have summed up the most crucial point in looking for improvement in this area.Absolutely NO ONE is immune.Many of us Christians, from apostles to newborn Christians could benefit from this understanding as we labor to build the body.Blessings,

Compton wrote: During the worst days of my former church family crisis, I found the best expression for my sadness not in the sugary praise pop of Christian music, but in the lament of the Soviet composer Dimitri Shostakovich. (I admit it’s melodramatic, but such broken mirrors are cheaper then therapy for meI think I just had a lightening flash from heaven - a big answer to prayer!!! A collegue of mine, a Russian organist experienced horrifying abuse of the brutalist kind in Russia. He is damaged deeply. He is also a gifted musician (genius) and has "commissioned" me to be his pianist for Shostakovich's "Lady of Macbeth Mtsensk." I find this work very dark, and melodramatic, as you say, and I really don't want to do it. Yet he has spent months writing out a part suited for me on his computer. I don't yet have the heart to tell him it's not really going to draw a big audience around here. This is not Russia. Sadly, everyone views him as a bit cracked. People mock him ruthlessly. No one tries to understand him. I've been sharing my faith with this man for some time now, often by email, and he is like a sponge, soaking it in. But he can't get over his anger. It is a residual from past abuse. His music is his therapy - that heavy, dark, Russian sound. I think that your own experience is the answer I've been seeking in prayer. I realize now that I need to accept this "calling" and play for him. It is a way of walking through the pain with him, only holding on to Christ, and encouraging him to do so. Even if our audience is only one (God), just maybe it will be worth it - for eternity. Diane

Oh to God that today's apostles, prophets, and pastors would get a hold of this verse and make it their life!2 Cor 4:5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.To get a hold of it would kill all aspirations of super-stardum, and would destroy all spiritual abuse. But so long as false apostles like C. Peter Wagner exist, they will continue to elevate individuals to be super-stars, where entire churches rotate around one man. There are many preachers who would amen this. However, in their hearts lies the desire to be the last of those super-star preachers. You know, the type where thousands flock to hear and hang upon every word they say, as if their words dropped down like dew from heaven. My dear preachers, don't let yourselves be that man!

WOW WEE was I ever the most naive person on earth or what ? Annie, don't you find that once we can let go of all our lofty illusions about Christians we are so much freer to just accept them, and even enjoy them and struggle together. Life is a lot easier when we are free from these unrealistic expectations of ourselves and others. And as long as we think we are worse or better than someone else we put up barriers. Theological superiority or inferority are both devilish temptations. .. predisposing partnership in the abusive system.The ground at the foot of the cross is level. Diane

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Religion produces this:The passive huband Ahab with his bullish domineering Jezebel wife who "calleth herself a prophetess", their overly handsome vain son Absolom who is making concubines of all the church girls while thier daughter dances like Herodious daughter danced, the sword of lust in her hand decapitating those God called to be Elijahs to this sin soaked Idolatrous generation!Amen!And to me that's the only condition of fellowship. Not maturity but honesty. Me too! :-)

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I know that under the Old Covenant we could not know our hearts, but the NT promise is that by the Holy Spirit, we can!That is a peculiar reasoning and quite off the intention of both passages you sited by way of comparisson.Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?Taken in it's context,Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jer 17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. Jer 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jer 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. There is a contrast there for one. Here is a better rendering of intent of Jer 17:9;Jer 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things,.... This is the source of the idolatry and creature confidence of the Jews, sins which were the cause of their ruin; and though what is here said is particularly applicable to their hearts, yet is in general true of the heart of every man; which is "deceitful", and deceiving; and puts a cheat upon the man himself whose it is: it deceives him with respect to sin; it proposes it to him under the notion of pleasure; it promises him a great deal in it, but does not yield a real pleasure to him; it is all fancy and imagination; a mere illusion and a dream; and what it gives is very short lived; it is but for a season, and ends in bitterness and death: or it proposes it under the notion of profit; it promises him riches, by such and such sinful ways it suggests; but, when he has got them, he is the loser by them; these deceitful riches choke the word, cause him to err from the faith, pierce him through with many sorrows, and endanger the loss of his soul: it promises honour and preferment in the world, but promotes him to shame; it promises him liberty, but brings him into bondage; it promises him impunity, peace, and security, when sudden destruction comes: it deceives him in point of knowledge; it persuades him that he is a very knowing person, when he is blind and ignorant, and knows nothing as he ought to know; and only deceives himself; for there is no true knowledge but of God in Christ, and of a crucified Christ, and salvation by him; see 1Co_3:18 it deceives in the business of religion; it makes a man believe that he is a very holy and righteous man, and in a fair way for heaven, when he is far from that, and the character it gives him; in order to this, it suggests to him that concupiscence or lust, or the inward workings of the mind, are not sin; and it is only on this principle that it can be accounted for, that Saul, before conversion, or any other man, should be led into such a mistake, as to conclude that, touching the righteousness of the law, he was blameless: it represents other sins as mere peccadillos, as little sins, and not to be regarded; and even puts the name of virtue on vices; profuseness and prodigality it calls liberality, and doing public good; and covetousness has the name of frugality and good economy: it directs men to compare themselves and their outward conduct with others, that are very profane and dissolute; and from thence to form a good character of themselves, as better than others; and as it buoys up with the purity of human nature, so with the power of man's freewill to do that which is good, and particularly to repent at pleasure; and it puts the profane sinner upon trusting to the absolute mercy of God, and hides from him his justice and holiness; and it puts others upon depending upon the outward acts of religion, or upon speculative notions, to the neglect of real godliness; see Jam_1:22. The man of a deceitful heart, the hypocrite, tries to deceive God himself, but he cannot; he oftentimes deceives men, and always himself; so do the profane sinner, the self-righteous man, and the false teacher; who attempts to deceive the very elect, but cannot; yea, a good man may be deceived by his own heart, of which Peter is a sad instance, Mat_26:33. The heart is deceitful to a very great degree, it is superlatively so; "above all", above all creatures; the serpent and the fox are noted for their subtlety, and wicked men are compared to them for it; but these comparisons fall short of expressing the wicked subtlety and deceit in men's hearts; yea, it is more deceitful to a man than the devil, the great deceiver himself; because it is nearer to a man, and can come at him, and work upon him, when Satan cannot: or "about", or "concerning all things" (q); it is so in everything in which it is concerned, natural, civil, or religious, and especially the latter. The Septuagint version renders it "deep"; it is an abyss, a bottomless one; there is no fathoming of it; the depths of sin are in it; see Psa_64:6 and, seeing it is so deceitful, it should not be trusted in; a man should neither trust in his own heart, nor in another's, Pro_28:26, "and desperately wicked": everything in it is wicked; the thoughts of it are evil; the imaginations of the thoughts are so; even every imagination, and that only, and always, Gen_6:5 the affections are inordinate; the mind and conscience are defiled; the understanding darkened, so dark as to call evil good, and good evil; and the will obstinate and perverse: all manner of sin and wickedness is in it; it is the cage of every unclean bird, and the hold of every foul spirit; all sin is forged and framed in it; and all manner of evil comes out of it, Rev_18:1 yea, it is wickedness itself, Psa_5:9, it is so even to desperation; it is "incurably wicked" (r), as it may be rendered; it is so without the grace of God, and blood of Christ: who can know it? angels do not, Satan cannot; only the spirit of a man can know the things of a man within him; though the natural man does not know the plague of his own heart; the Pharisee and perfectionist do not, or they would not say they were without sin; such rant arises from the ignorance of their own hearts; only a spiritual man knows his own heart, the plague of it, the deceitfulness and wickedness in it; and he does not know it all; God only knows it fully, as is expressed in the next words, which are an answer to the question; see 1Co_2:11. John Gill~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Not to forget;1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Sj,(So a man a mans spirit knows what's going on inside him. )Perhaps, given enough time and maturity through the teaching of the Holy Spirit...but certainly not according to our time frame!You rightfully seem exasperated by the lack of standards in your local fellowship, but I think Mike’s perspective below is a helpful caution for you. Obviously you have witnessed some wrongdoing. Perhaps you have heard the saying “Wrong doing invites over-reaction.” Consider taking the time to see yourself as clearly as you see others…do you know what is in your own heart brother? From my experience, our emotions can be like gunpowder smoke on a civil war battlefield…it’s easy to lose your bearing and lose sight of the enemy.It has been over 2 years since my own leadership fiasco I mentioned earlier, and I can testify that I continue discovering new insights as to why such things happen…and it embarrasses me to admit that most of my new insight includes my own role in that mess.Bro, when speaking of such an important word as “TRUTH” I have learned that my “truth” can usually fit into two categories…some of my truth builds others other up in our most holy faith, and regrettably some of my truth tears them down. One truth I have learned through my sad experience is that all of our hearts are fragile clay things. If we were honest with one another, even the strongest of us experiences uncertainty in our relationship to God from time to time. Now if we are gentler with our own weakness then that of others, we are demonstrating that we do not know our hearts after all. By saying there is no excuse for a leader to become influenced by unbiblical doctrine or that it’s “one strike and you’re out”, the message to even the lowest member of the body might be that it is best to hide from each other. I think, before we act, we should consider if our own expectations of the “spiritual giants” in our midst were too lofty and perhaps naïve. Even the warrior king David prayed this pitiful prayer to the Lord: SAY TO MY SOUL, "I AM YOUR SALVATION!" And Jesus asked Peter 3 times…”Do you love me?” Only on the third time did Peter cease from any claims and simply say “Lord you know.” So if David the king and Peter the rock look for affirmations in their own hearts, then how is it we think our pastors and elders are to be such pillars?I’m not saying you haven’t been wronged. But if the leadership is firmly entrenched in their error, there are other options besides blowing the place wide open. (I exclude physical or sexual abuse from this perspective…safety first.) Another option might be to simply realize that, without a supportive structure for the leadership to operate within the church was never a healthy fellowship in the first place. In that case, your option might be to write them a well thought out letter confronting their error as you see it through scripture. You might let them know that you are copying this letter to some of their “outside peers” if they have any…and then remove your family from that place to consider what you have learned as you seek a new healthier church. Of course I am removed from the particulars of your situation…but perhaps my single piece of counsel is to keep your own heart free of the smell of smoke as you pass through this fire. Don’t let this bitter experience define you brother…having your eyes opened to the abuse you are not a victim anymore. Be free!MC

This Scripture goes so far as to say that if you don’t know your own heart it's because you are reprobate! In other words it's because you have wilfully stubbornly refused to see what was in yourself …. Yes, one who has a calloused heart doesn’t now himself, or the depth of his sin. Yet I don’t recall Jesus implying that Peter was a reprobate when he said that he falsely promised to never deny Christ. Yet Peter did not know his own heart. Jesus allowed him to fail in order that he would learn about himself. And it is no different for any of us. When we think we know ourselves, we likely don’t. But it doesn’t mean we’re reprobate: (ie A morally unprincipled person, or one who is predestined to damnation) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1Co 10:12 God has not been revealing all my hidden sin at once. If he did, it would be unbearable. He does it over time – his time. Often I pray, “Please show me what wicked ways are in me”, and then he answers, through his Spirit or his “Nathan’s” and it always hurts at first – until I accept God’s glorious mercy in Christ. We need to be careful about judging the motives behind observable sin. It may not necessarily be the product of wilful, stubborn resistance. There may be other reasons – like deeply engrained ways of living and thinking appropriated from family or cultural, or religious background, response to past rejection etc. Sinners aren’t aware of it. Or it feels right and justifiable to their conscience. “There is a way that seems right to man but in the end it leads to death… “prov. We need to be careful that we do not apply Scripture in a spiritually abusive manner lest we be guilty of the very same charges that we lay against spiritual abusers. Applying truth without love is like hitting someone on the head with a hammer. We inflict more wounds than we heal. We won't have "honesty" in the Body until we have HIS Love for each other - Indeed a loving environment fosters honesty. If the sentiment of our thoughts and words towards sinners seem harsh and unmerciful, it may very well be that we have yet to experience a deeper level of God’s mercy towards ourselves. For to the extent that we know God’s mercy for us, to that extent we can be merciful towards others, including ourselves. And that is love – God’s love. Dear Lord, may I know more and more of your mercy so that I can extend his mercy towards others. Jeol 2: 13 says: “Return to the Lord your God, for he is angry, vengeful, and sick and tired of you, ….. no no no…. it says: for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love…” I ask myself and all of us: Does this compassion radiate from our being? If not, then we just might not know ourselves as well as we thought. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ and to know thislove that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Eph. 3:16Diane

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And quite frankly no one here is God enough to judge my motives for speaking out against this. You who say not to judge others do you judge?Friend, you aren't able to hear what's being said here very well. No one here thinks they are your judge...you brought your case before this very human "court" yourself. Certainly you expected a response, and we should trust each others intentions to sincerely discuss this volatile issue.it's no reason to keep quiet when spiritual genocide is being committed.Genocide? Is this Stalinist Russia or Maoist China? Even in those absolutely hostile environments the Chuch could not be crushed. Yet here in America we do not have genocide of the faithful...we have carnal leaders who are turning themselves into idols. But brother, please consider this; the men you are angry at could not achieve their super-apostle status unless men like you needed super-apostles at some point in time. Untill you face that unpleasant reality, you can hardly analyze the situation and speak health into it.I am cautious to say more because this requires much reflection. It is perhaps the salient point in this discussion. Why are these men so popular? The answer my freind is closer to home then we want to admit.And if you are angry at my "judgement"...just imagine how hard it will be for these prideful men to hear your words.My heart is sincere to you SJ,MC

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I just finished chatting with my musician friend whom I mentioned earlier – the one who has asked me to perform some very heavy morose Russian music. I asked him a bit about his life in Russia. Wow! What horrendous abuse! We in our society cannot comprehend just how abusive a massive religious and political power can be. We cannot comprehend the reality of having no freedoms. Russia’s long history is filled with horrible suffering at the hands of one evil power after another. My friend said, “My soul is calling for this sad music. It can’t end happy.” He is living out his loss and grief for his childhood and his homeland through the music. Interestingly, he has a history of rejection, ex: loosing church jobs, in spite of his musical expertise. He tends to get too “hot under the collar”, and knows that his anger has cost him a lot. He has a tendency to tell it like it is, and tells people where they are wrong. Ministers don’t like that, he is learning. Now, comments from my view point of life: From personal experience I can say that we tend to expect more of our moral and spiritual models. And it is a huge shock when those we trusted and respected stab us in the back. It wouldn’t have been so hard if it was Jo the Drunkard down the street. We don’t expect much from those on the bottom of society’s heap. However, those whom we trust to do something important for us – like political leaders, health professionals, educators, pastors can insight a lot of anger in us when they don’t fulfill our expectations. Really we shouldn’t be surprised at anyone’s sins. You know, the Bible clearly warns us not to put our trust in man or any institutions. It warns us that man will fail and gives countless examples. The Bible even makes it very clear that spiritual leaders or church associates mess up very badly. So why do we think that we have evolved to a higher level of goodness? That has been an illusion that pervades our entire society and spills into the church. My dad remembers two men who sat next to each other in church every Sunday. One day one of them murdered the other. He joined the collaborators during the war. In the same way, we cannot predict where people will drift to down the road and how they will respond to hard times. They may hurt us, or we may hurt them. The reality is that people change – ideally for the better; but life is not ideal. Sj, I highly suspect that underneath those angry vibes I sense, there is a grieving heart, a heart that deeply feels the loss of what should have been – better people. I believe that God calls us to allow the grief to rise to the surface. “Blessed are those who mourn…” That includes grief over our self – looking on our own naked shame. This is the path to God. .. “for they shall be comforted” I don’t know why he doesn’t step in sooner and rescue oppressed and abused people, like he promised. I guess, in a way, I have some anger towards God. I expect more from him – as far as fixing up this sinful world. I get tempted to fill in the gap – and try to fix people up myself, to tell people where they are wrong, and to rescue people. While this may all be good, I think a lot of our efforts are not Spirit empowered, but efforts of the flesh. And it just doesn’t work. God has something far better. And trying to discover that would be the best way we could spend our time and mental energy. Diane

sj,There is only one thing you can do now.Forgive them.

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God showed me in a dream two nights ago that though He called me to sound the alarm, my attempts to help them wouldnt prosper, why?Because they love their sin. They even defend it. Therefore His judgment on these people is that He will allow them to believe the lie....I've been weeping over them crying out for them for the past 7 months that God wouldnt give them over but you know what? I'm hearing God saying to me "Stop crying for Saul for i have rejected him as King over Israel, arise and go.." This is the grieving process I earlier wrote about. Clearly, God has released you from the burden of sounding alarms. Now, be careful not to go around nailing "Iccabod" signs on doors. Remember that God's New Covenant Promises still hold. And it is a covenant of Mercy. We participate in that by being instruments of mercy, not judgment. I simply cant make them repent, and if God is saying they wont...well..what can i do?No you can't make anyone repent. That is the job of the Spirit. And he can certainly do it. I believe that much of revival is God prying our hands off of HIS project. "When Abraham's body was a good as dead... "Rom. 4... When all looks hopeless God will do his work. For now consider these words from Habakkuk 3 16 I heard and my heart pounded, my lips quivered at the sound; decay crept into my bones, and my legs trembled. Yet I will wait patiently for the day of calamity to come on the nation invading us. 17 Though the fig tree does not bud and there are no grapes on the vines, though the olive crop fails and the fields produce no food, though there are no sheep in the pen and no cattle in the stalls, 18 yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will be joyful in God my Savior. 19 The Sovereign LORD is my strength; he makes my feet like the feet of a deer, he enables me to go on the heights. I hope that you can someday revisit through this thread with different eyes. I believe that there is a lot of treasure that you have not yet grasped for yourself because of your focus on the sinners. I look forward to reading your posts - posts no longer drift to "all those sinners out there" but instead point us towards our wonderful Lord who is far greater than all the sinners put together. He will indeed have the victory!!! Diane

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One time I was deeply hurt by the actions of a person who was in the middle of leadership within a group of Christians. The actions hurt me personally but didn’t really hurt this church group or others directly. By bringing this out in the open, it would have reflected on the whole group and unsaved people would have identified the whole group with this sin. Many in this group were in a genuine walk with the Lord and had been a big help to my growth. This was offence had to do with secret sins and not a false teaching. It is now years later and I am very glad that I did not reveal this as I know the enemy would have used it against that whole group and against Christ.In this case, it was a very short time that this person was removed from this group. No one ever knew what had happened yet God saw to it that the offender was removed.Mike said, ”There is only one thing you can do now. Forgive them.” SJ, make sure you deal with this issue of forgiveness.

SJ,Quote: I tremble for them if it is the case that God would have me say nothing. After all it's not when the prophets scream judgment that we are in most trouble it is when they are silent, because then judgment is at the door.(SJ), I thank God for your obedience and for every word that God has spoken through You, Dorcas, MeAgain, and Roadsign – Not to offend the others that have spoken but God spoke directly to me through them not all but in much of what they have said.Dorcas,Quote: We too can allow anger to work for us, but, it must be within the limits set within scripture for MAN. I'm not saying we can take over God's role; simply, I'm saying it is God-like, to feel anger in certain situations, and THAT's OK!(Dorcas), this really hit home. It’s ok to be angry but we are not to sin in our anger. Question is when does it become SIN? I DON’T LIKE the word Abuse and especially not but together or along the side of the word “Church”.We need to understand when not to allow a certain situation to turn into abuse, Spiritual Abuse for that matter, it is down right wrong and totally disrespectful. If we are going to be a BODY and allow the spirit of God to work through US, then we are going to have to respect one another. There is a scripture that says do unto others as you would like them to do unto you.I believe its in the book of Matthew when speaking of the Sermon on the Mount. THE GOLDEN RULE: Matt 7:12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.Dorcas, Just reading my own writing of this scripture has convicted me, because in my anger (When I get very angry) I shut everybody out, and build walls very thick walls. And it is at that time, that I need to be left alone, alone with God and his word. I am not saying that it is RIGHT to do this, it’s not because I tend to hurt more people, people that love me and care about me.In the (Past) I would come back and apologize and give an explanation of what happen, but I have discovered that this has become a pattern one that I must deal with and overcome, because it does effect many others.“Spiritual Abuse” when did we allow this to come into the Church, his word says that You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses it’s flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. His word says that You – It says You, so if I am reading the word and I see the word You, then God is talking about me. You are the light of the world. A CITY that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. (Matt 5:13-16)His word says that we are to love our enemies, we as brothers and sister in the Lord should not look at one another as enemies, despite how much we have hurt one another. You have heard that it was said, You shall love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in Heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.Where did we get off track? What happen to being each other’s keeper, am I my brothers keeper? I don’t believe that in any way is keeping an eye on each other’s sin, but being a brother’s keeper.-ANewInHim

By bringing this out in the open, it would have reflected on the whole group and unsaved people would have identified the whole group with this sin. Yes, there is the issue of damage control, and when we’re reeling from the shock and hurt, it’s extremely hard to see clearly, or think about long term consequences when we disclose sin. Disclosing can be damaging even for ourselves. I know a lady who exposed adultery to the elders, and as a result they muddied her name. The men did a remarkable job of protecting each other, and counselled her to be more forgiving, and remain silent (the woman’s place). She ended up losing her marriage, including her fellowship in the church. And to this day, the sin has been well covered up. It was an unspeakable tragedy in this Brethren church. She certainly was not wrong in what she did, but the end result certainly has made me much more cautious about sounding alarms. In the end it is the innocent parties who may become the most damaged, including yourself. And the sinners just get more smug. Our government has laws that protect one from sexual and physical abuse, but nothing from spiritual abuse. The church itself should be a guard, and protect its own sheep, but that doesn’t always happen, and when the local body won’t deal with it, there is no higher governing body to defend the sheep at the bottom. People in the higher ups can be very protective of each other in order to protect reputation. Dorcas, Welcome back! And again, thank you for your words of insight. I’m glad you followed my post, because it reminded me of my own tendency to want to tie up “loose ends”, put away the past and move on. I have to remember my own experiences. Feelings just don’t go away right away, and as you say, nor should they. It can take quite a while. But I don’t like the messiness of it all. I’d like to add here that it is not only anger which we must work through. It is also other feelings that linger long after the bad experiences. For example, in my case, being told I was an instigator, a trouble-maker, and the cause the problems “around here”, and hearing through the grapevine that people were warned to stay away from me because I was a bad influence… You just can’t ignore all the hurt and rejection, thinking that it doesn’t matter. You really question yourself. You feel a lot of shame. Trust has been seriously violated, and your reputation marred. I feel that I have been harmed far worse by something quite different than all that – it is the slow eroding effects of long-term spiritual abuse – laying guilt trips, legalistic pressure to conform, shame for not doing so, threats of rejection for noncompliance etc – all those effects that over time causes one to carry a lingering feeling of shame. Heresies have a way of ending up that way, including hypocrisy. Only in recent years did I realize that it was not MY shame that I was carrying, but THEIR shame – those who were unwilling to admit their own wrongs, those who never once apologized, those who thought they were several notches higher then me. This typical pharisaic form of religion feels good for a long time and you can squelch the pain, until one day it turns around and hits you in the face and you feel the full effects of it all. Then you realize that you have been following the wrong shepherd. And then you start looking for the Chief Shepherd. . At least that’s what happened for me. It took a very rude shake-up wake-up call. And now, I’m eternally grateful for it. But there are a lot of spiritual leaders who don’t want to hear any of this, maybe because they fear that it reflects badly on them. Diane

Sometimes one has to act because another person is too weak to act for themselves....The world is full of upside-down logic which protects the strong and exploits the weak and God hates that. Some of His strongest condemnation in scripture is because of this very attitude.I was just going to write these very thoughts and you beat me to it. So I'll add a few: We need to broaden our outlook from licking our own wounds to becoming aware of others who are mistreated - pushed to the back, regarded as "lesser" because they have "broken families", are not refined socially, not as educated.... in other words.. the "losers" of the pack. They are easy victims in the religious system. We can easily neglect them because WE don't feel their pain. In fact, we can be perpetrators simply by neglect. Neglect is a very serious sin. (Parable of the Good Samaritan)There will always be there who just don't have the inner resources and spiritual maturity to be able to handle it. Some years ago our family helped take care of roosters for a nearby farmer. The barn was filled with several thousand young birds approaching puberty, raised for breeding purposes. When the hormones kicked in we watched the stronger roosters mercilessly attack the weaker ones till they were bleeding and dying. It was gruesome. Each morning we gathered up the dead. My 11 yo son said; "Mom, these roosters are just like human beings" They have only three desires: food, power, and sex." Now back to humans: if in any way we view ourselves as better than the "lesser ones", we are not a lot different than these roosters. For whatsoever a man thinketh in his heart, so is he .." There is no end to how far this sin can carry us, and how much evil can be justified.Jesus was abused horribly, yet, even on his journey to the cross, he still had a heart for the weeping women around him. He said, "Don't weep for me.. weep for yourself." He was aware of their coming pain and suffering. May God decrease us and may Christ increase. Diane

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Can you show the difference in that book {Ezekiel} and others of the 'difference' between Pastor and Prophet?To gain an understanding of the differnt callings - the prophetic and pastoral role you may want to check these out: The Prophetic Call by Art Katz (Philologos)What is a pastor and what does he do?Now, I realize that you probably want a much simpler answer. I've read various explanations, but would be reluctant to pigeonhole these roles. We have a tendency to attatch labels too quickly, and also restrain definitions. I heard this once: Prophets rock the boat and pastors try to steady it. ... .. well, just a thought, but not a wise one at that. Diane

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This forum has helped me in many ways, and one of them is that I see that If I am to speak of these things I gurantee that I will be misjudged by my peers and slandered by my enemies.I will be "regarded as an imposter though genuine." So the Scripture is true then:"The Spiritual man judges all things but himself is rightly judged by no one." call it pride if you want, but It's Bible to me. NOTE: i DO NOT consider anyone here an enemy but rather friends. call it pride if you want, but It's Bible to me. It's pride.The failure here is in that to offer up ones opinion and to make statements and have no expectation of having your feet held to the fire... To be challenged is not to assume that this therefore makes you right, nor to assume you are being either misjudged or slandered.Re-read that first paragraph again and think about it. You have been given much freedom to express yourself here. Tell us, what is it that we owe you? A pulpit? That is a haughty statement.

We don’t owe each other anything, for the scriptures does say owe no man nothing but Love. I know when the Spirit of God the Anointing of God is speaking directly to me, because I begin to experience palpitations, and I feel like my heart wants to come out of my chest. I had an EKG done and it was normal so I discern that this is how God lets me know he wants to speak through me.Yes we have the freedom to speak, but you used the word pulpit. When speaking, sharing, whether it may be led by the Spirit of God, or just down right FLESH are we not all standing before a Pulpit/Platform/Stage?If we consider the amount of people that are actually on line viewing every post, every subtitle, and anonymous name, then yes we are all in front of a pulpit.One of the things that I do, before I am led by the Spirit of God as to where he wants me to go, and what he wants me to read is that I look to see how many people are ON.When flying to Buenos Aires this morning, I was sat in a seat with no one next to me. Shortly after a man sat on my right hand side, I hesitated to turn my head and greet him. I continued to look forward at the movie that was being viewed on the monitor, but I could discern that his eyes were on me. He was a tall man, and so he was looking down at me, and I knew he was. He was waiting to see when I was going to look up; I couldn’t hesitate any longer so I turned my head and looked at him. When I looked into his eyes I could see that his heart was smiling at me, yet there was no smile on his face, and his eyes were still looking straight at me. I discerned the smile that what coming from his inner most being so much so, that the fact that his face did not reflect a smile and I could not see the crowfeet next to his eyes, I knew that he knew that I knew what he was saying to me. It was at that moment at that instant that we all began to feel the tribulation that was taking place when we crossed from one city to the next. I looked at him again to let him know with my eyes that I was concerned and again, he just looked at me and I knew what he was saying to me. He said Judgment, but what he did not know or maybe he did is that before he sat down I was already being led by the Spirit of God to the word Judgment.Rev 20:12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.Here is the Seven Summary of Judgment;Among the many judgments mentioned in Scripture, seven are invested with special significance. These are:(1) the judgment of the believer’s sins in the cross of Christ ( John 12:31) –Now is the judgement of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.(2) the believer’s self-judgment (1 corn 11:31) – For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.(3) the judgment of the believer’s works (2 corn. 5:10) – For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things d one in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (4) the judgment of the individual Gentiles at the return of Christ to the earth (Matt. 25:32) All the nations will be gathered before Him, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.(5) the judgment of Israel at the return of Christ to the earth (Ezek 20:37)- I will make you pass under the rod,, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant.(6) the judgment of angels after the 1000 years (Jude 6) And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgement of the great day.(7) Here, the judgment of the wicked dead with which the history of the present earth ends.It is not what we say, we can all quote scriptures, and we all love God’s Word. It is the spirit behind what we say, that God is most concerned with.

sj,I will not question God why you did this. I've done it before and it hurts, it hurts very much when you know that God is speaking through you and you feel rejected, not loved and not accepted.The Devil is a liar. I want to thank you for every example you gave me when answering my question on Anger, and the difference between a Godly anger vs an anger that would lead to revenge.You also taught me what real love is all about, and telling each other the truth, God also used you to bring mine or our sins to the light, and you did it in a way that was Holy.If I sinned I repent.-ANewInHim

This thread has been locked and unfortunately lost. SJ has gone through and edited all of his posts which now leaves this completely unintelligible and makes it also impossible to make any clarifications or resolve any misunderstandings.Please do not abuse the edit function.