The Order of MelchizedeK

The writer of Hebrews states, "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, called by God AS HIGH PRIEST "ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK of whom we have MUCH TO SAY AND HARD TO EXPLAIN, since you have BECOME DULL OF HEARING." Hebrews 5:9-11. Within these three verses, we find that Jesus is the High Priest of the order of Melchizedek. We learn that He is the author of eternal salvation. And finally there is more to understand, but the believers are dull of hearing. I would like to focus on what Scripture teaches us about what the order of Melchizedek has offered to us. In chapter 8 we are given the comparison of what the Levitical order gives us as an offering and what the order of Melchizedek gives us as an offering. "For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices,(this refers to the covenant of Mount Sinai) THEREFORE IT IS NECESSARY THAT THIS ONE HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER." Hebrews 8:3The offering Jesus has for us is defined for us in Hebrews 8:10-13. "...I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, saying "KNOW THE LORD, for all shall know Me from the least of them to the greatest of them..." The effect of the new covenant for those who enter in will have a real experience of knowing God. No one will have to refer to the thoughts of other men to show them the truth. I believe we often fall short because we look to others who have gone before us. We look for the support of men. The High Priest of the order of Melchizedek is faithful to reveal Himself to those who enter in. We have become dull of hearing that is why it is hard to explain why the offering of the new covenant is not having any power in our lives. Only God can deliver us from our fallen nature. Only Jesus can teach us to follow the Father's will and that is where the joy of fellowship begins.Thus it is only Jesus, who is the Word, who can offer us the revelation of who God is. He is the mediator of the new covenant. He is Melchizedek. In ChristJeff

THEREFORE IT IS NECESSARY THAT THIS ONE HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER.Jesus' offering was Himself, it is through that blood offering that we may enter into all that is the new covenant;Hebrews 9:11-14 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?He is Melchizedek.Could you expand on this? Are you saying Jesus and Melchizedek were one and the same? In Christ,Ron

Hi brother Ron, In the last verse quoted, "how much more shall the blood of Christ, who THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT offered Himself without spot to God, (this not only speaks of His death on the cross but also the way in which He came to show us the way, through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit)...CLEANSE YOUR CONSCIENCE FROM DEAD WORKS TO SERVE THE LIVING GOD." Hebrew 9:14As I stated, the work of Jesus is to reveal God to us. This is the way. In the verse you have quoted, the last part is essential to understanding the way. By faith we follow our High Priest. He through the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin. He through the Holy Spirit teaches us of His righteousness. Without God speaking to us we have no hope of knowing His will. All we can accomplish are dead works. When we learn to hear His voice, we give up serving in the flesh. This is the only way we can serve our living God. In Christ Jeff

Hi Jeff, you wrote He is the mediator of the new covenant. He is MelchizedekIf you are saying that Melchizedek is a pre-incarnation appearance of Christ, I would have to disagree. Melchizedek is a type of Christ, as the Sinai Tabernacle was a type of the heavenly temple. They are not earthly manifestations but shadows and types. Melchizedek is a foreshadowing of Christ not a theophany. I know that Christians have held different views on this but the thing which convinces me is that Mechizedek is called 'priest of the most high God' whereas Christ is always referred to as 'high priest, after the order of Melchizedek'. Melchizedek is the only OT example of a priest-king. It is in this that he foreshadows Christ's high-priesthood. Aaronic priesthood banned priest-kings, but the Melchizedek 'pattern' is the pattern that Christ has fulfilled.As 'the blood of the cross' is a way of saying 'by His sacrificial death' so 'high-priesthood after the order of Melchizedek' is a way of saying 'He is a priest upon a throne' (cf this phrase in Zechariah). Christ's reign is as a priest, all His authority is exercised in priestly reconciliation rather than kingly retribution. His throne is a throne of grace.

The word used in Hebrews is "shadow.' Foreshadow or theophany are man's words. A shadow exists because something creates the shadow. The veil seperates our understanding of the real thing. It is God through the Word who reveal Himself to us. The power and passion in our lives come because He reveals Himself to us. Shadows are like the cloulds of the Old Testament. Only when Jesus through the Holy Spirit teaches us to hear His commands can we live the New Covenant life. Think about the life of Joshua. Moses was his mentor. Joshua would later stay in the tabernacle with God. Then God says to Joshua, "Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon I have given you..." Joshua 1:3 Then Joshua goes into the promised land. Before every battle, God gives Joshua the instructions to do it His way. Jesus was leading Joshua. And by faith Joshua pleased God.At which tabernacle did Melchizedek serve, the earthly or the heavenly?In ChristJeff

Jeff, your quote The word used in Hebrews is "shadow.' Foreshadow or theophany are man's words. A shadow exists because something creates the shadow.Of course it does, but you would not mistake the shadow for the true once you have seen the true.your quote The veil seperates our understanding of the real thing. What veil are you referring to?your quote At which tabernacle did Melchizedek serve, the earthly or the heavenly?We are not told that Mechizedek served at a Tabernacle. However Israel had priests before it had the Aaronic priesthood, and Moses created a tabernacle before the Aaronic Tabernacle was erected. There were also burnt sacrifices and other specific offerings before those instituted in Leviticus. Job also offered sacrifices for his sons. All these are pre-Aaronic. In other words there was a pattern of priesthood and sacrifice that pre-dated that of Sinai. We do not have detailed accounts but there is enough evidence to identify its existence very clearly. Priesthood has been around for a long time. The priesthood of Mechizedek would have been of this pre-Aaronic pattern. Technically, the Aaronic priesthood came into full function in Leviticus 8. Any references to the existence of priests, tabernacles or offerings before that time are clues to pre-Aaronic priesthoods.There are other priesthoods referred to in Scripture too e.g. Jethro

Melchizedec certaily is an intriguing character, he's one of those guys I want to look up once I get to heaven, I have some questions for him. :-D I think we are purposefully left a bit in the dark about Melchizedec so that the focus remains on the Lord Jesus. It is enough to know that he had a priesthood that was greater than that of Aaron and that Jesus is our great High Priest after the order of Melchizedec.In Christ,Ron

The veil is spoken of by Paul, "But their minds were blinded, for until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, BECAUSE THE VEIL IS TAKEN AWAY IN CHRIST. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart, Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, ARE BEING TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY, JUST AS BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD." 2 Corinthians 3:14-18 The order of Melchizedek removes the veil which clouds the understanding of who God is. It is the work of Christ to reveal Himself to us. The power of His blood opens the way. The resurrection life shows us the way. Now Scripture indicates that Melchizedek, "made like the Son of God, REMAINS A PRIEST CONTINUALLY." Hebrews 7:3 And when speaking of tithes, "Here mortal men recieve tithes, but BUT THERE HE RECEIVES THEM OF WHOM IT IS WITNESSED THAT HE LIVES." Hebrews 7:8 Melchizedek remains a priest continually and He does not receive tithes with mortal men, but THERE He receives them of whom it is witnessed that He LIVES. Where does Melchizedek receive tithes? Who are those who know that He lives?In Christ Jeff

Hi Jeffyour quote The veil is speak of is the one Paul teaches, "But their minds were blinded, for until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, BECAUSE THE VEIL IS TAKEN AWAY IN CHRIST. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart, Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.their minds, their heart. This is a reference to Israel's blindness. their minds speaks to me of plurality and hence each person, their heart singular speaks of the nation corporately. This is Israel's blindness 'in part'. [Rom 11:25]But Abraham and consequently Melchizedek are pre-Israel, pre_Aaronic. There was no veil on Abraham's heart but he saw Melchizedek.

I would like to focus on what Scripture teaches us about what the order of Melchizedek has offered to us.I think that we can certainly look at what Jesus as our high priest, afeter the order of melchezidek, has to offer to us.He is MelchizedekI, like others here, would contend with that. I can sympathise with your belief because I once held the same view myself, however I have to confess that the reason I held it was because as a new christian I heard somone present that view, it sounded good and so I believed it. However in reading the scriptures myself I saw that this theory does not hold.look at these two verses:Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, The effect of the new covenant for those who enter in will have a real experience of knowing God. No one will have to refer to the thoughts of other men to show them the truth. I believe we often fall short because we look to others who have gone before us.Absolutley :-) the new covenant is not an hirearchical system, like a pyramid with the laity at the bottom and God at the top. Its a God and us relationship with Christ alone as the mediator.Jesus makes this so clear;Mat 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ.There are teachers, and other gifts but their role must be understood in relation to these words of Christ and the nature of the new covenant. There is an instruction to be confident in, and allow yourself to be persuaded by, those who do lead, and to submit to them Heb 13:17 And again we need to understand this in the context of the new covenant.Just like in a natural body the direction must come from the head. It may pass through other parts of the body, but this is due to function, not chain of command.Stuart.

I hear your thoughts concerning pre-aaronic and levitical orders. You say that the order of Melchizedec ministered by Christ occurred only after Christ's death on the cross. I believe the covenant made with Abraham coexisted with the covenant made on Mount Sinai. In fact I believe the new covenant existed since Genesis 3:15. Thus 7:11 and 7:15 explain that the law is our tutor to Christ. The function of the law was to condemn not to save. The new covenant ministered by the order of Melchizedek is a continual priesthood. Verse 7:3 is very clear. Melchizedek remains a priest continually. "Here mortal men (levitical order) receive tithes, BUT THERE HE (MELCHIZEDEK) receives them, OF WHOM IT IS WITNESSED THAT HE (MELCHIZEDEK) LIVES." Hebrews 7:8.Again the order of Melchizedek is everlasting. Which man could only satisfy this claim. Look to verse 8. " But there he receives them," Does this verse give the impression that there was a beginning or end? "Of whom it is witnessed that HE LIVES. The law of faith sits over God's creation. The law of faith cannot be cut up into man's timelines. The law of faith needs a mediator. What did Jesus do before His incarnation?In ChristJeff

Jeff wrote In fact I believe the new covenant existed since Genesis 3:15. Jeff, I think you are confusing promise with covenant. Gen 3:15 is the first promise (or 'threat') of the cross but a promise does not constitute a covenant.As regards the point at which the Son became high priest after the order of Melchizedek; this is very clear.Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. When did the Son sit down? Clearly when He had completed His mediatorial work on the cross. This is Peter's clear exposition of Psalm 110 in Acts 2:34,35. Jesus has become both Lord and Christ. It is also the clear testimony of Hebrew 1:3 when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on highThe promise of Zechariah is linked with the building of His church, which was still future in Matt 16 "I will build", Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. This is a priest upon a throne in other words a king-priest of a Melchizedek pattern. This is a revolutionary statement to a people who, for a thousand years, have been told that priests could not be kings, nor vice versa. The prophecy of Zechariah is also looking towards an event not yet accomplished at the time of the prophecy.Hebrews refers to His Anointing. Heb 1:9 which He has received, with oil of gladness above His fellows. There is another important implication here which is that 'his fellows' have received the anointing but that Christ's is above theirs. This links with Aaronic consecration in which High Priest and all the other priests were consecrated on the same day and at the same time. We became priests when He became High Priest. A close look at Aaron's consecration will reveal that Aaron's sons were not directly 'anointed' but that they received the oil which had been used in Aaron's consecration. (Lev 8). Our priesthood is only made possible by His High Priesthood.It was this new, changed priesthood which brought the Old Covenant to a final end. the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. That of necessity is important. The priesthoods could no co-exist, they are mutually exlusive. The Old would have to be taken away in order to establish the New. From the moment that Christ's High Priesthood began, having taken His place by His Father's side, the Aaronic priesthood was extinct, of necessity.

Good morning brother Ron, You have distinguished a difference between a promise and a covenant. Would you please identify what you have learned about promises and covenants?Secondly, Genesis 3:15... How do you distinguish that this is a promise versus covenant?Thirdly, this is not meant as a putdown, but as a point which questions the existence of the Trinity. The Jehova Witnesses also argue that Jesus was exalted to a much higher position within God's kingdom. I hold that everyone who would believe in Jesus from Abel to the time of the finish of God's plan were saints. Nothing but the Holy Spirit can do this work. Faith cannot exist absent of the Holy Spirit. "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,(I believe all the faithful would fit into this work), visible and unvisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.( I believe this would include Tony Blair, George Bush). All things were created through Him and for Him. And He IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, AND IN HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE THE PREEMINENCE." Colossians 1:16-18. I believe the saints who died prior to the blood of Christ were made prefect with those who have lived after His resurrection. No one had ascended into heaven but the one who had come down to save us. The resurrection of Christ brought the promises to the old testament saints to fulfillment. Heaven was now opened to all who lived, and live by faith. All the saints are part of the church. In Christ Jeff

Hi JeffI'm not sure of the point you are making regarding JWs and the Trinity. If you look through other threads you will find that my Trinitariam credentials are pretty sound.Secondly, Genesis 3:15... How do you distinguish that this is a promise versus covenant?You will know that this verse is actually part of God's curse on the serpent. In that sense it is neither promise nor covenant but a prophetic threat issued at the point of Satan's apparent victory. A promise is a one off thing with no ongoing relationship. I might promise you a Christmas card; when I have sent the card my promise is fulfilled and completed. It does not have a necessary followup relationship. As an example of a covenant; my wife and I were married almost 40 years ago. That was not a one-off event but a relationship.God's promises do not necessarily mean that He is entering into long term relationships. This is part of the wonder of justification that Abraham was justified before he was in covenant. I shall touch on this in my Abraham series in the not too distant future.God's threat to Satan in Gen 3:15 was an absolute 'promise' but God certainly did not enter into covenant on the matter.

Hi Ron,I am not accusing you. I am trying to focus on a teaching which exalts Christ after He has been obedient. This is a teaching of JWs. The work which Christ did on the cross was complete before the foundation of the world. In Christ Jeff

Hi Jeff, The work which Christ did on the cross was complete before the foundation of the world. Before the foundation of the world there was no timeline, but as those things were worked out on the earth they have taken place in a specific time space context. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate etc.In the outworking of them there is specific 'before' and 'after' otherwise what does this statement mean that 'He is with you and shall be in you'? Why, 'tarry, until ye be endued'? The principle of the cross was settled from before the foundation of the world. Its retroactive power of propitiation and hence the grounds of justification is referred to in Rom 3:25. God has been just in 'passing over' sins because of His eternal commitment to provide the propitiation.However, Jesus referred to His death as something which must be accomplished. i.e. He viewed it as a future event in Luke 12:49-50. There were things He could NOT do until it was accomplished (literally 'finished). This baptism was accomplished (finished) on the cross which made things possible which before had been impossible.On his accession to the throne, a very important event and truth in the New Testament, a new era was inaugurated. The work on the cross was not complete until Christ said 'it is complete' John 19:30. His death was 'accomplished' when in the eternal Spirit He offered Himself to God. The event is an eternal event which took place 'in time', but it was not until it had taken place 'in time' that its full benefits and consequences were available 'in time'.

Hi Ron, I hear what you are saying. I believe, in what I here taught in dispensational theology, both the power and the outcome are lumped together. Sorry for the slang. I believe there are differences in the timeline in how God addressses man. I believe the covenant of Mount Sinai was given to a nation seperated by God according to His pleasure. I also see that once Christ had completed His work on earth that God for a time continued to work soley in the nation of Israel after the time of Pentecost. Then God commanded Peter to reach out to the heathen. I believe as prophesied that God would also at that time pour out His Spirit on the heathen. These timelines and people exist as you say within our understanding of time and historical events. The point where I disagree with dispensational theology is found in the teaching that God did not indwell His Holy Spirit within man prior to Christ's resurrection. I know it is the means by which I have faith. He reveals Himself to me. I can look back before my being born from above and see that I had no understanding. I could not understand how to be faithful. We have the greater revelation that is in Christ. Along with that revelation, we also are layed bare in His light. I know that the New Testament teaches that when I become a disciple of Jesus Christ, I will be crucified of self will. I am not talking about legal terms and words, I am talking about a real life experience with my Lord and Savior. This is how Christ fulfills the law spoken of by Moses, the Prophets, and Psalms. If one teaches dispensational theology without teaching the results of the predestined work of Christ, one diminishes the blood of Christ. In ChristJeff

Jeff,I don't really think of my self as a dispensationalist in the way that the term is usually employed. It became the special expertise of the brethren through Scofield and many others and produced a very precise schedule for the Second Advent. If we take your terms that you object to the teaching God did not indwell man by His Spirit until the resurrection As with all these terms is depends what you mean by indwell and by Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God anointed, empowered, equipped, enabled men in the Old Testament in many ways. They believed God and were justified. They walked with God and knew the inspiration of His Spirit in prophecy etc. The Spirit of Christ within them testified... The key thing to notice is that all of these functions were in the nature of 'gifts'. The gifts on the Christmas tree do not identify the species of tree; the fruit do that. The gifts may show the generosity of the giver but fruit shows the essential nature of the tree in process producing its own life-likeness.The key change in the New Covenant, which did not exist at the time of the Old Covenant, is God within; the law written on the heart, a new spirit, My Spirit... All these characteristics were characteristic of the New Covenant. They were not characteristic of the Abrahamic Covenant, nor the Sinai Covenant, nor the Davidic Kingly Covenant, they are New Covenant. The New Covenant was 'in my blood'; it could not be released until the blood had been shed.It is this regeneration, a change in fundamental nature, that I see as the characteristic of the New Covenant, which was still future in Ezek 36 and Jer 31. The Old Covenant was inaugurated with the words 'this is the blood of the covenant' [Ex 24] Not until the sacrifice had taken place and the blood sprinkled. The New is the same.I do not diminish the blood of Christ. Upon a life I have not lived, upon a death I did not die, upon another's life, another's death, I stake my whole eternity.

Hi Ron, In terms of what God said to Israel under the covenant of Mount Sinai, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart." Duet 6:5-6 This applied to the nation of Israel. "...My covenant which they broke through I was a husband to them says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jeremiah 33:32-33In both examples, God says that He will do this. He will put His word or His law in their hearts. Also please note that Israel because of unbelief broke God's covenant. The law of faith is always conditional. "For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise;" Hebrews 10:36 I do not believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved. Scripture has always pointed to man's choice to walk away from God. Adam proved this. So again, I look for the "...evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1 What evidence does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit change from the evidence of faith given to us of the old testament saints. As a side note, most of the time when I use capitals it is meant as a means of focusing one's attention on the words.In my reading of Scriptures, many times I have read over words. And then one day the word is illuminated. So I try to illuminate in the earthly way. However, I must confess Ron that my flesh does get in there too. Please forgive me 70 times 7. In Christ Jeff

Please forgive me 70 times 7. when shall I start counting?Love has good manners and does not pursue selfish advantage. It is not touchy. It does not keep account of evil J B Phillips paraphrase. Love doesn't keep a score. Ron Bailey paraphrase!

Hi JeffIn terms of what God said to Israel under the covenant of Mount Sinai, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart." Duet 6:5-6 This applied to the nation of Israel. this was a command which Israel broke."...My covenant which they broke through I was a husband to them says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jeremiah 33:32-33this one is a promise which God keeps.love to you, by brother,

I am not accusing you. I am trying to focus on a teaching which exalts Christ after He has been obedient. This is a teaching of JWs.Wheter or not a particular teaching is held by the JWs should not bother us. Our concern is wheter or not it is scriptural.The bible is essentialy a book of the ages. God dwells in eternity where there is no past present or future (I can't begin to get my mind around that) but He created the ages and has used them as a canvas on which to paint his masterpiece. They were created in and by Christ before the foundation of the world. They ages have a begginning a middle and an end, they follow one another in a chronological order; there are ages past, this present age, and ages to come. The wonder of it all is that Christ himself the creator of the ages has entered into them. The artist has entered the painting. For the most part the bible deals with events as they happen in time, as its written to us who dwell in time. So when we read of Christ's exaltation happening at a certain time (and we do read of it thus) it doesn't mean that he wasn't exalted previously "in eternity". In fact Jesus said in John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.We read of Jesus being given all authority; of him being exalted and given a name the is above ever other name. Whats all that about? how could the Creator be given authority, or a name? only as part of the creation, as part of the "painting". these events all happend in time, in the ages; but in no way do they take from His eternal glory, which was before the ages.In a similar way I can say that I was chosen in christ before the ages but that doesn't negate the fact that I said yes Lord to Him at a certain point in time.Stuart

Thankyou for forgiving me as Christ has forgiven us.Good afternoon brother Ron,In response to your post, in Jeremiah 33:32, "My covenant" refers to Duet. 6:5-6. So the question remains, which covenant was Jeremiah and Moses talking about? In ChristJeff

Hi brother Stuart,I am sorry for not pinpointing the nature of my statement about the Jws. You see as I reach out to them, I here over and over again the words of Scripture applied to the logic of man. They have developed a systematic arguement for tearing down the faith in Jesus' predestined work. They look to Hebrews 1:4 as one of the foundations on which their whole arguement rests. As you have said, God exists outside of time. The Scriptures as they have been given to us have been revealed over 2000 years. What we have is the progression of revelation of God's work and plan for man. As time continued within the church age, we had the catholic church up until the time of Luther and Calvin. And then we have the influences of their thoughts. And now man continues to look to God through His revelation in Scripture. I see man continually in bondage to the thoughts of others. Yet the New Covenant teaches that no longer will man say know God for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. This is the gift that Scripture teaches. In my short time as a believer, I have realized the weakness of His church comes from not realizing the magnitude of the gift we have in Jesus. Man continually debates about other men's thoughts. Men continually look to be fed by other men. Men continually live in the wilderness. The only solution to the wilderness experience is to believe every word in the Scriptures applies to us in some way or another. It is Christ through the Holy Spirit who lines up wonderfully the truth for us. I am trying to point men in the only direction I know that will be fruitful. Look onto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. I point out these things to cause people to search the Scriptures for themselves. I am not the source, my thoughts can only sow or water, each one of us must come to hear His voice. Choose to be blind and believe what He tells you. Sorry for going on this rant. In Christ Jeff

Ron wrote: pretaining to Genesis 3:15 You will know that this verse is actually part of God's curse on the serpent. In that sense it is neither promise nor covenant but a prophetic threat issued at the point of Satan's apparent victory. A promise is a one of thing with no ongoing relationship. "Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. And the Lord said to Satan, The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before Angel. Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying Take away the filthy garments from him. And to him He said, See, I HAVE REMOVED YOUR INIQUITY FROM YOU, and I will clothe you with rich robes...Hear, O Joshua, the high priest. You and your companions who sit before you. For they are a wondrous sign; For behold, I am bringing forth MY SERVANT THE BRANCH, FOR BEHOLD, THE STONE THAT I HAVE LAID BEFORE JOSHUA; upon the stone are seven eyes..." Zechariah 3:1-10I see God working out His plan for the redemption of faithful souls throughout history being played out as in the life of Joshua the high priest. Jesus removed the iniquity of Joshua and The SERVANT IS BEFORE JOSHUA ALONG WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. Jesus is our High Priest in the order of Melchizedec.In ChristJeff

Jeff,'amen' to the whole 'rant' :-P I am indebted to a man, now with the Lord, who once told me. 'We have got to learn to read the Bible to see what it says and not what we have been told it says. Not what we think it should say but what it actually says. To that end I have covenanted with the Lord that, although I will listen to what other men may say, He will be my No 1 teacher'.It was almost 40 years ago I first heard that and my stand now is what it became then. "me too, Lord".

The battle for the souls of men in all generations requires that there be a priesthood continually in the order of Melchizedek. In ChristJeff

This was Jesus' command to Paul. "...I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, FROM THE POWER OF SATAN to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." The permanent priesthood brings us into the fellowship of saints. And like Paul we are called to turn them from darkness to light. David in Psalm 110 stated, "The Lord said to my Lord...Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." vs 1-4 This psalm covers past, present, and future. Let us seek to be sanctified by faith in Him. "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, FOR THE REDEMPTION OF THE TRANSGRESSIONS UNDER THE FIRST COVENANT, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." Hebrews 9:15 Are not all men condemned under the first covenant?In Christ Jeff

"Which is easier, to say, "Your sins are forgiven you, or to say, "Rise up and walk? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins..." Luke 5:23-24The scribes and Pharisees thought to themselves, "Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" Luke 5:21The Pharisees were correct in thinking that only God could forgive sins. What they didn't understand was that Jesus was God. Likewise I believe that many make the same mistake in their understanding of Jesus' work prior to His incarnation. Jesus prior to the cross had the power to forgive sins. His priesthood is everlasting, since the foundations of the world.In ChristJeff

Jeff wrote His priesthood is everlasting, since the foundations of the world.JeffI think you are mistaken here. One of the fundamental descriptions of a priest is that 'he is taken from among men'. The role of priesthood is primarily that of a mediator. Before the foundations of the world there was no man and no need for a mediator. Christ specifically took on flesh in order to qualify for the 'taken from among men' criteria. He 'became' a highpriest after the order of Melchizedek in order to become the Mediator between man and God; the man Christ Jesus. (Note the emphasis on his human-ness at this point, rather than His divinity) Incarnation was a vital step in his becoming our highpriest. God is never regarded as Mediator before incarnation; He would only have been able to represent one of the parties ie God.His highpriesthood is NOW everlasting,going forwards, in that it is untransferable. Israel's highpriesthood was not 'everlasting' in that those priests 'died'.

In terms of my stating,"His priesthood is everlasting, since the foundation of the world," I was refering to 1 Peter 1:20, "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you..." The revelation of Christ on earth does not affect the priesthood of Melchizedec prior to the incarnation of Christ. Were those who Jesus forgave of their sins prior to the cross justified?In Christ Jeff

Jeff wrote The revelation of Christ on earth does not affect the priesthood of Melchizedec prior to the incarnation of Christ. Were those who Jesus forgave of their sins prior to the cross justified?Of course they were, but justification is not dependent upon priesthood. Justification is a forensic (legal)term which had no place in the temple. Men and women were justified because God set forth His Son as the propitiation. Justification means a man can walk free from the courtroom; it is not one of the bible terms that describes relationship.Mediation on the other hand, demands 3 parties; an offended, an offender, and a representative of both in the middle. This is priesthood, and did not function as priesthood until there was an offended and an offender, or before Christ became highpriest offering His own blood.The Brethren used to refer to John 17 as Christ's Highpriestly prayer. They did this because of his phrase and for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified throug the truth. Israel's highpriest had to be sanctified before they could begin the OT temple worship.[Lev 8] For this reason Aaron, offered for himself, as well as for the people.There could be no priesthood until there was highpriesthood. Christ similarly had to become highpriest. On the day that highpriesthood began the normal priesthood began. If Christ had been highpriest before Calvary and His ascension there would have been the possibility of priests according to a non Aaronic order, but the first ended and the second began.This is the whole thrust of Hebrews. If different priesthoods could co-existent the Aaronic priesthood would never have needed to come to an end.

Ron wrote:"They did this because of his phrase, "and for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.'The ministry of Jesus while on earth as man, was to reveal more fully to man, the only way of salvation. Men are saved by grace through faith in Him. The order of Melchizedek is unlike the earthly priesthood. Men who serve in the Aaronic, Levitical, and now within the priesthood of His church can only point men to God. But the gift of the order of Melchizedec is totally different. "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying "Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them." Hebrews 8:10-11. Paul teaches the same thing, in 1 Corinthians 3, One man sows another waters, but it is God who gives the increase. It is through Jesus that the Father reconciles man to Himself. "Behold God works all these things, twice, in fact, three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be ENLIGHTENED with the LIGHT OF LIFE." Job 33:29-30.Jesus was the mediator of Joshua the high priest in Zechariah chapter 3. Jesus was the mediator for David, "The Lord said to my Lord..." Jesus was the mediator for Moses, "choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach (or reviling because of) Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt..." Hebrews 11:23-25. Without Jesus as mediator these men would know nothing of Christ. In ChristJeff

Jeff wrote Jesus was the mediator of Joshua the high priest in Zechariah chapter 3. Jesus was the mediator for David, "The Lord said to my Lord..." Jesus was the mediator for Moses, "choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach (or reviling because of) Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt..." Hebrews 11:23-25. Without Jesus as mediator these men would know nothing of Christ. Neither of these instances speaks of Christ as highpriestly mediator. Christ has always been the Word and as such a continual expression of God. In that sense He has functioned as a mediator but not a priestly mediator until His inauguration as 'highpriest after the order of Melchizedek'.Here is the first historical biblical reference to Christ as a high priest; For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people [Heb 2:17]Hi Jeff,You will see that this begins with incarnation. You will see that He had to be made like unto his brethren, so that He might become The KJV used the word 'be' a merciful etc; this is the Greek word 'ginomai'which means 'to become'. Christ was made human 'so that he might become' a merciful and faithful highpriest. The tense which is used is Aorist which means an event which took place at a point in time; in other words Christ 'became' a highpriest at a particular point in time. When was that point in time?The passage then tells us His role as 'high priest'; it is Godwards, to make 'propitiation' for the sins of the people. Propitiation is the process whereby a price is paid to remove the offence so that reconciliation can be effected. The 'propitiation' or price paid, of course, was His death. So now this person has become a highpriest, only after His death, and his reconciling sacrifice became functional. The new priesthood can now begin.If you are familiar with Lev 8 and the consecration of the Levitical priesthood, you will know that this pattern was seen there. Aaron is taken from among his brethren and consecrated as highpriest. In Aaron's case a double sacrifice is necessary for Aaron AND the people. From the moment of Aaron's consecration the Levitical priesthood was able to function but not before.Christ's priesthood is similar in this sense that only after His consecration was the new order of priesthood operational. This can be seen in several places in Hebrews.

Ron,I hear your points on what must first take place before Jesus could take the position as high priest. My point of view is this. Jesus is part of the Trinity. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8. Yes Jesus suffered and learned obedience unto death. Jesus knew this before the foundation of the world. When teaching about predestination and election many are quick to teach about irresistible grace and that we are chosen before we are even born. Yet many do not apply the same notion of time and the work of Christ who is the I AM. In Christ Jeff

"But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God. Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah,who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease (or departure) which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem." Luke 9:27-31. I write of this episode to illustrate that the kingdom existed before Chirst's departure. In verse 27, Jesus said that Peter, John, and James would see the kingdom. Then the transition of about eight days pass and then we have the transfiguration of Jesus. The law (Moses), and the prophets(Elijah) are discussing with Jesus His exodus from earth. Likewise in Zechariah 3&4, I believe we are given a similar revelation. vs 8. "...Behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the Branch, for behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua; Upon the stone are seven eyes...vs. 4:2, "...What do you see? So I said, I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left.vs 11, "...What are these two olive trees at the right of the lampstand and at its left?vs 14, "...So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."I believe the anointed ones are Moses and Elijah. And they are standing beside Jesus who is Lord of the whole earth. Within chapters 3 & 4, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are present before Joshua and Zerubbabel. The kingdom, the stone, is at work in the time of the law and the prophets as well. The High Priest has a continual priesthood, "but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually." Hebrews 7:3. Is there any man besides Jesus, who is made like the Son of God?In ChristJeff

"Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things which angels desire to look into." 1 Peter 1:10-12.In this Scripture we find that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets who told of a day when Christ would become man and die on the cross for all. You see Jesus was directing the Holy Spirit before His incarnation. The gift that He gives us is the revelation of God to us. He has always been the light. His priesthood serves to give us this light. The earthly priesthoods only worked to cover the sins commited and to offer praise to God. The earthly priesthood reached up to God. The heavenly priesthood reaches down to man. This is the function of the order of Melchizedec. Only the Son of God could ever occupy this heavenly priesthood.In ChristJeff

"For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth: and after my skin is destroyed this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God. Whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another, how my heart yearns within me!" Job 19:25-27Jesus is the mediator and High Priest of Job. How many today cry out, "how my heart yearns within me!"In ChristJeff

A few have posted this Psalm:"Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, "Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us." He who sits in the heavens shall laugh ; the Lord shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure; "Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion." "I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, You are My Son, today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession..."Now we know that this Psalm is part of a prayer which the church in Jerusalem cried out to the Lord in thanksgiving. Because of this prayer does it mean that a prophesy was fulfilled because they used this Psalm in their prayers in the time of the book of Acts? When did Jesus recieve the inheritance of the nations, "and the ends of the earth for Your possession." Psalm 2:8Likewise, during the Feast of Tabernacles, the Hillel (sp) psalms were sung. I believe Psalms 113 through 118 were sung during the ritual of pouring water down the steps at a certain gate of the temple mount. Please forgive me for the lack of details. Psalm 118 speaks of Jesus and salvation also. "Open to me the gates of righteousness; I will go through them, and I will praise the Lord. This is the gate of the Lord, through which the righteous shall enter. I will praise You, for You have answered me, and have become my salvation. The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone." Psalm 118:9-12. Jesus is the door to salvation. And I believe some who sang the Hillel understood who their Savior was.In ChristJeff

"And he blessed Joseph, and said: "God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has fed me all my life long to this day, the Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; let my name be named upon them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth." Genesis 48:15-16In ChristJeff

"But David answered Rechab and Baanah his brother, the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, and said to them, "As the Lord lives, who has redeemed my life from all adversity." 2 Samuel 4:9.In ChristJeff

This is a theological question. What other man could serve along side Jesus in the priestly order of Melchezedec?In ChristJeff

"After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does all these thing." Acts 15:16-17 Here the apostle James is supporting Peter in regards to the work that God was doing among the Gentiles. Peter has just said that the Holy Spirit had been given to the Gentiles. "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." Acts 15:8-9My point is this. The work that God does in man is through the Holy Spirit. By faith man follows the Holy Spirit which works to purify the heart of the faithful. Now, James quotes OT Scripture, "After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up;.." First, notice that the work of God had existed in the OT. Once the glory of the Lord filled Israel. Then through disobedience the passing generations layed in ruins. Now James quotes God promising to come back and rebuild the tabernacle of David. Who is James and the OT Scripture talking about? Next question, who built the tabernacle of David in the OT?Finally, the gentiles this time will recieve what the nation of Israel had in the OT, what was it? In ChristJeff

Going back to the first post. I will state my opinions on two issues raised there:1. I heartily agree that Christ is the only one who could reveal to us who God really is, and that in the new covenant the believers have the privilege of personally knowing God by the counsel of the Spirit. That does not mean we should now throw away all Christian writings, because we will certainly benefit from the fellowship of other members in the Body of Christ. Nevertheless, we must each seek to know and experience God in a direct and personal way.2. With regard to Melchizedek, my view is more akin to Philologos. While I am open to the possibility that Melchizedek might be a "pre-incarnate" appearance of Christ, I am more inclined to think that he is a type of Christ, not Christ himself. A careful reading of the text of Hebrews does seem to indicate that the author maintains a careful distinction between Melchizedek and Christ, even though they have much in common. Nevertheless, however you see this, the overall message of Hebrews remains the same--the priesthood of Christ is superior to that of the line of Aaron. Christ's supremacy is the whole point.

The Old Testament saints needed a heavenly priest too. As one reads through the OT look for the distinction between those who were faithful and those who were not. The book of Isaiah begins to unfold in ways that speak of the saints of the OT. I have often heard preachers say that Isaiah got things messed up in terms of chronology and order of prophesy. I say that the book of Isaiah is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is perfect. It is our understanding which is imperfect. We must accept the book as it is and look to how the covenant made with Abraham weaves its way throughout the book. The just shall live by faith. It is only through Jesus that the faithful are born from above. Remember all things ever created are through Him. I believe that includes the chosen. In ChristJeff

Another thought on this topic, the priestly order of Melchizedec preceded the Levitical priesthood. The order of Melchizedec coexisted with the Levitical priesthood. And finally the order of Melchizedec continues, even if the Levitical order is reinstated by end times prophesy. Remember the Jews will again offer the blood sacrifice. Man has no effect on the heavenly priesthood. In ChristJeff

Jeff,Melchizedek only appeared twice in the Old Testament (Genesis 14:18-20 and Psalms 110:4). The first instance refers to a real, historical figure. The second refers to the son of David becoming a king-priest in the same order of Melchizedek, which is often considered a Messianic prophecy (i.e. prefiguring Christ in the future).Therefore, there is no ground to say that the priestly order of Melchizedek coexisted with the Levitical order. To say that is an unnecessary stretch; I cannot see any significance in doing so.Also, I do not think there is any reference that says Melchizedek is a "heavenly priest," let alone any explicit reference saying the OT people needed a heavenly priest.I believe the best approach is to stick with the main point of the book of Hebrews--that Christ is superior to the Aaronic priestly order, hence it would be a grave mistake for the Jewish Christians to go back to the Old Testament system of sacrifices. The significance for Christians today is that Christ is supreme. He is the all in all.

Jeff wrote Another thought on this topic, the priestly order of Melchizedec preceded the Levitical priesthood. The order of Melchizedec coexisted with the Levitical priesthood. And finally the order of Melchizedec continues, even if the Levitical order is reinstated by end times prophesy. Remember the Jews will again offer the blood sacrifice. Man has no effect on the heavenly priesthood. Hi JeffI thought we went through all this at the beginning of this thread. Christ's King-Priest priesthood could not begin until He had been conscecrated. This meant that blood, His blood, had to be shed. It was when He had purged our sins that His Melchizedek priesthood began.As for the Jews reinstituting blood sacrifices, I do not believe it. For one thing they have no priests and a new priest would have to be consecrated by the mediator of the covenant (see Lev 8) which would be a re-institution of the law as priesthood and law are inseparable [Heb 7:12]. All descendants of Aaron are now defiled and consequently disqualified from performing their function. To cleanse them would need a re-introduction of the red-heifer, but you need a priest to prepare the offering of the red-heifer. A classic catch 22, if ever I saw one.

Ron wrote: " Christ's King-Priest priesthood could not begin until He had been conscecrated. This meant that blood, His blood, had to be shed. It was when He had purged our sins that His Melchizedek priesthood began."The distinction I made Ron was that the priestly order of Melchizedec has always existed. No matter who one thinks occupied this order. The order itself has always existed. Secondly, thankyou for clearing up my laziness on the issue of the Desolation of Abomination cutting off the sacrifice half way into the final 7 weeks. You are abosolutely correct. I believe God will not have brought the sacrifice about but errant man's religion. It is only the forenowledge that God has given us that this would occur.In ChristJeff

The distinction I made Ron was that the priestly order of Melchizedec has always existed. No matter who one thinks occupied this order. The order itself has always existed. I don't believe is has. The 'order of Melchizedek' is a bible way of saying Christ is a Priest-King. Israelites were taught that they could have no priest-king, but Zechariah predicted it and Christ fulfilled it. Heb 2:17 speaks of Christ's 'becoming a merciful and faithful highpriest'. This took place on his ascension to heaven. I cannot see why there should ever have been a Melchizedek priesthood prior to this, and can't think of anyone who might have filled the role.As regards Daniel's 70 weeks I suspect my prophetic interpretations would be quite different to most folks'.

What purpose did Melchizedec serve Abraham? "Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedec met him." Hebrews 7:9-10 Tithes were actually paid to Melchizedec through Abraham by those who lived and officiated at the altar under the Aaronic priesthood. Also, the Scriptures says of Melchizedec, "remains a priest continually." Hebrews 7:3 This is why I say that the order of Melchizedec coexisted with the Aaronic priesthood.Secondly, start a thread, you have piqued my interest.In ChristJeff

Also, the Scriptures says of Melchizedec, "remains a priest continually." Hebrews 7:3 This is why I say that the order of Melchizedec coexisted with the Aaronic priesthood.Hi Jeff"I remain bald, continually" but I wasn't always bald. There was a time when I wasn't bald. (I have the photos to prove it.) However, I became bald at a point in time, and since that time I have 'remained bald, continually'.Get my point? :-D Hebrews is using the bible picture of Melchizedek as a one-off, none-successive, king-priest as a type of Christ. He did not inherit his priest-king role, nor will he bequeath it to another. It is his, alone, forever. The writer is setting up the scene ready for the later statement that Christ's is a non-transferable priesthood. [Heb 7:24]As regards another thread... do you mean regarding Abraham and Mechizedek? Patience, my brother, at our current rate of progress the Abraham, My Friend series should reach Melchizedek within the next 5 years! :-o

"I became bald at a point in time."When I wrote the following for the Priesthood and Life thread I was unaware of your example, "a point in time". Honest(ly) :-)“Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood,” the incarnation and the perfecting of His calling, his vocation IN POINT OF TIME, were necessary. “He also Himself likewise took part of the same (flesh and blood); that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Heb.2:14) Moreover, in the process of bringing many SONS to glory -- “saving us and calling us to a HOLY CALLING”, i.e. PRIESTHOOD through DEATH, resurrection, ascension and exaltation, -- He not only abolished death, but “brought LIFE and incorruptibility to light through the gospel” which is “the POWER of God for salvation to everyone who believes” (2 Timothy 1:9,10; Romans 1:16).See the thread Priesthood and Life through andas of 2004 /3/13 5:58

Hay, do you have to be bald to participate in this thread? Or even join The Order of Melchizedek?Ha Ha :-D

Hay, do you have to be bald to participate in this thread? Or even join The Order of Melchizedek?No, there's no favouritism here. In any case we know that God has balanced this thing fairly evenly. To some He gave hair, the others He made good looking.

"I became bald at a point in time." You also had hair during your lifetime. I myself am approaching the point in time when I will share in your experience. However, the focus of this argument looks to a specific point in time. My question, then based on looking to a point in time, Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedec at a specific point in time. Likewise, the writer of Hebrews also uses this same point in time to say that the Levitical priesthood figuratively paid tithes to this Melchizedec at this moment in time that occured approximately 3700 years ago.(?) Now according to the Law who did the Aaronic priesthood pay tithes to?In ChristJeff

Jeff writes My question, then based on looking to a point in time, Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedec at a specific point in time. Likewise, the writer of Hebrews also uses this same point in time to say that the Levitical priesthood figuratively paid tithes to this Melchizedec at this moment in time that occured approximately 3700 years ago.(?) Now according to the Law who did the Aaronic priesthood pay tithes to?Hi JeffSorry to hear you are approaching the time of life when you may become "folically challenged". (just in case any politically correct spys visit this site and think we are prejudiced against baldees)Ah, I see where you are coming from. I'm glad you see that the Levitical priesthood figuratively paid tithes. We are in the world of figures, types and shadows here. I have often wondered who received the priests' tithes and have concluded that the priests received the priests tithes. Each priest needed a priest, so the gave their tithes not to themselves as an individual but into the 'priests' fund'.We know that the funds never went beyong the Levitical priests so there was no literal Melchizedek Priests that the Levitical Priests paid tithes too. This whole passage is designed to show the inherent superiority of King-Priests to Levitical Priesthood. Abraham 'paid tithes' to Melchizedek, but only once. However, this sets a precedent showing that the Melchizedek kind of priesthood is inherently superior to that of Aaron. Abraham never paid tithes to Aaron, but Abraham did pay tithes to Melchizedek. Hence, Melchizedek is greater than the 'father' of Levi (and Aaron).It leads on to this important verse [/color] 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.Heb 7:12. Notice that this is why the Levitical priesthood came to an end. The word 'changed' is metatithEmi which means "to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other"). In other words, the Melchizedek priesthood never co-existed with the Levitical, it replaced it.If the Melchizedek priesthood had been in existence there would never have been a need for the "additional and temporary law"; Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.[Gal 3:19] As soon as Christ came (and fulfilled His calling) a new priesthood was established.The Levitical priesthood was originally "Aaron and his children". The new Melchizedek priesthood is also "I and the children which God hath given me". [Heb 2:13. The Levitical priesthood was under an anointed (Christed) head. But those who had the 'blood of Aaron in their veins' were also potentially qualified as priests. The Melchizedek highpriest is Christ; the priests who serve under him will be those who have the highpriest's life in them.Lars has begun a series of quotes from T Austin Sparkes. Priesthood and Life. It looks good and I would recommend you to follow it through; I intend to do so

Ron wrote:Sorry to hear you are approaching the time of life when you may become "folically challenged". (just in case any politically correct spys visit this site and think we are prejudiced against baldees)One of the benefits of being folically challenged has been realized in the fact that the students here at UCLA has begun to open doors for me. Ron also wrote:Ah, I see where you are coming from. I'm glad you see that the Levitical priesthood figuratively paid tithes. We are in the world of figures, types and shadows here. I have often wondered who received the priests' tithes and have concluded that the priests received the priests tithes. Each priest needed a priest, so the gave their tithes not to themselves as an individual but into the 'priests' fund'.In response I see something different. "For I am the Lord, I do not change; therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. Yet from the days of your fathers you have gone away from My ordinances and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you." Says the Lord of hosts. But you said, "In what shall we return?" Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, "In what way have we robbed You?" In tithes and offerings. You are cused with a curse, for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,..." Malachi 3:6-10Ron you are correct in that the Levitical Priests placed their tithes and offerings in the storehouse. Here in Malachi we see that God declares that the storehouse is His. So I believe that I am correct in saying that the Levitical Priesthood paid their tithes to God. I will address your other thoughts as time permits. I have some students waiting to open the doors for me.In ChristJeff

Hi all, Philologos (Ron) says:Hebrews is using the bible picture of Melchizedek as a one-off, none-successive, king-priest as a type of Christ. He did not inherit his priest-king role, nor will he bequeath it to another. It is his, alone, forever. The writer is setting up the scene ready for the later statement that Christ's is a non-transferable priesthood. [Heb 7:24]I agree. I suspect this is the one point where most disagreements arise from.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.[Gal 3:19]Let's not forget though at the same time, like many anti-nomists do, that even though the Old Covenant law has been fulfilled, we still have the New Covenant law... "i will write my law in their hearts..." jeremiah 31

"Let's not forget though at the same time, like many anti-nomists do,"What is a antinomist?In ChristJeff

Ron wrote:"We know that the funds never went beyong the Levitical priests so there was no literal Melchizedek Priests that the Levitical Priests paid tithes too. This whole passage is designed to show the inherent superiority of King-Priests to Levitical Priesthood. Abraham 'paid tithes' to Melchizedek, but only once. However, this sets a precedent showing that the Melchizedek kind of priesthood is inherently superior to that of Aaron. Abraham never paid tithes to Aaron, but Abraham did pay tithes to Melchizedek. Hence, Melchizedek is greater than the 'father' of Levi (and Aaron)."First, the idea that the tithes paid by the Levitical Priesthood never were literally paid to the order of Mechizedec is true if Melchizedec is believed to be a man other than Jesus Christ. However, as I have established, God considered the storehouse of the Levitical Priest's His storehouse. (Refer to Malachi 3) So the Levi paid tithes to God. Now if one believes in the doctrine of the Trinity one must also conclude that Levi paid tithes to Jesus Christ.Secondly, based on the account given to us, Scriptures teach us that Abram after the battle of the kings, paid a tithe to Melchizedec. I cannot say that Scripture teaches that this was the only time that a tithe was paid to Melchizedec. We are told that Abram built an altar and worshiped the Lord. My question, are these the only times in Abram's and Abraham's life that he built an altar and worshiped the Lord? Thirdly, Melchizedec is both a king and high priest of God. The man like the Son of God is the mediator between God and Abram. Yes, the order of Melchizedec is superior to the Aaronic priesthood. The actions of Melchizedec define the content of the order of Melchizedec. There is much to understand. "called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,' of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing." Hebrews 5:10-11 The writer of Hebrews wants to share much more about Melchizedec but these people will not understand because they have become dull of hearing. Do you believe that Scripture supports this statement? If there is more to know of Melchizedec will it not be supported elsewhere in Scripture?In ChristJeff

Ron wrote:"It leads on to this important verse [/color] 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.Heb 7:12. Notice that this is why the Levitical priesthood came to an end. The word 'changed' is metatithEmi which means "to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other"). In other words, the Melchizedek priesthood never co-existed with the Levitical, it replaced it.""Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. Galatians 3:16 Here Paul identifies Jesus Christ as being the Seed. I believe the idea here expressed is in terms of God promising to be God to all the faithful. God causes it to happen. The work of God, all grace comes through Jesus Christ. He is the author of our faith. "But as many as received Him to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name; who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12-13 The will of God through the Seed creates a child of God. Figuratively speaking, The Seed implies regeneration. What was once dead is now made alive. "And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect." Galatians 3:17 I believe Paul is teaching that the law given on Mount Sinai does not affect or influence the Abrahamic Covenant. The law given on Mount Sinai cannot change the nature of the work God in all who called on His name. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. I believe the Abrahmic Covenant, the core meaning, is expressed in these words, "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you." Genesis 17:7 This everlasting covenant is not the covenant given on Mount Sinai. That covenant only condemned in that it was weak through the flesh. This everlasting covenant is because of the Seed. God confirmed it in Christ. Moses, "esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward." Hebrews 11:26 How would Moses know the reproaches of Christ, if in fact Christ was not giving him what was His? The order of Melchizedec ministered these things.So it is true that a new law replaces the old law. The old law condemns, the new law, the Law of Faith, the Law of Christ regenerates what was dead. The new covenant is for everyone who was dead under the first law. It is new because God provides the atonement for those who follow in faith. So you are correct in a sense. The old law can not coexist with the new law. One condemns those who reject Christ. The other condemns death for those who call on His name. There have always been two groups of people. In ChristJeff

I read Lars thread on Priesthood and Life. The Levitical Priesthood could not give Life. They were required to go to God in behalf of the people. They could only sow and water. The Order of Melchizedec gives Life. It is the Life that saves. It is the Life that overcomes death. It is the Life that keeps us from His wrath. Christ fulfills the Law. When we know the Life, we become a royal priesthood because of Him. His Life will cause us to glorify Him. His desire to conquer the work of Satan will be our desire. His heart for the lost will be our heart. He will cause us to intercede, because that is Life.In ChristJeff

At a point in time, Abram paid tithes to Melchizedec.At a point in time, Jesus said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day and he saw it. At a point in time, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am. At a point in time Jesus said take and eat this is My body...Take and drink this is My blood. At a point in time, Melchizedec broke bread and shared wine with Abram. At a point in time, Jesus was crucified. At a point in time, David said, "The Lord said to my Lord, sit at My right hand,...The Lord has sworn and will not relent, "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedec." When did that happen?At what point in time were all things created through Jesus Christ?In ChristJeff

"Let's not forget though at the same time, like many anti-nomists do,"What is a antinomist?anti = against nomist=law... or in otherwards, "against the law." Such folks for example, teach that there is no commandments to obey, and are utterly opposed to folks teaching us to obey God. To them, it sounds way too "old testament" and many accuse others of teaching a "works based salvation" of sorts.

Ron wrote:"If the Melchizedek priesthood had been in existence there would never have been a need for the "additional and temporary law"; Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.[Gal 3:19] As soon as Christ came (and fulfilled His calling) a new priesthood was established."My belief on this precept is somewhat different. God does not change. His plan does not change. God picked a point in time to give a greater revelation to all men what He had given to Israel beginning with Abraham. With this greater revelation of the work of God reconciling man to Himself through Jesus Christ comes a greater witness to those who hear the Gospel. Jesus gave us the NT. Jesus completed the work of atonement. "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgression under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." Hebrews 9:15 What does this verse say? Jesus redeemed the transgression under the first covenant. Whose transgressions are redeemed by His death. Whose hope does Jesus secure?With the greater revelation of Christ in the world the time of the gentiles begins. These are all points in time which identify who is called. I believe the ways of God in how He works and Jesus works remains the same. The law was given as a tutor leading to Christ. The fourth commandment says make holy the Sabbath day. There were 5 thoughts given to the Jews in relation to this commandment. Do not harvest, do not pick up firewood, do not travel from your home... The Holy Scriptures did not give the Jews a method of making the Sabbath holy. So they came up with their own oral law. This is where they erred. The law required that they look to God for His leading. This work is the work of Jesus. But the Jews denied him continually. "All ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, (could this mean My flesh and My blood) For the drank fo the spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness." 1 Corinthians 10:3-5You see obedience has always been required by God. God works and Jesus works through the Holy Spirit to conquer death and give life. The fruit of the Holy Spirit's work is given in the evidence of the OT Saints. They are our examples. If we share the same hopes, do we not share the same Savior and High Priest. At what point in time did God say, "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedec." Psalm 110In Christ Jeff

At what point in time did Jesus know His sufferings? "Searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow." 1 Peter 1:11At what point in time did the Spirit of Christ tell the prophets beforehand what He would suffer? In ChristJeff

Jeff,First, the idea that the tithes paid by the Levitical Priesthood never were literally paid to the order of Mechizedec is true if Melchizedec is believed to be a man other than Jesus Christ. However, as I have established, God considered the storehouse of the Levitical Priest's His storehouse. (Refer to Malachi 3) So the Levi paid tithes to God. Now if one believes in the doctrine of the Trinity one must also conclude that Levi paid tithes to Jesus Christ."...If Melchizedec is believed to be a man other than Jesus Christ." This is where the disagreement began. I think both Ron (philologos) and I had raised questions concerning identifying the historical figure of Melchizedek as the pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ himself. These questions seemed to have been left unanswered thus far. (See previous posts)(1) I already noted that the author of Hebrews consciously maintained the distinction between Melchizedek and Christ (e.g. 7:15 - "another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek"). From this perspective, Melchizedek is a historical figure who had earthly parents and had obviously died. However, the author of Psalm 110 and Hebrews applied the story figuratively to the Davidic king and Christ himself noting that, contrary to usual Jewish practice, Melchizedek's genealogy was missing in scripture.(2) I get your point regarding Malachi 3 - the priest paid tithe to the temple storehouse, which is the storehouse of God (and God = Christ = Melchizedek). As far as I could remember - and I could be wrong - in Numbers 18, the Levites are to present their tithes to Aaron the priest. I do not recall any reference that the Aaronic priest offer tithes to the storehouse. So citing Malachi 3 seems irrelevant to me.(3) Note also that Malachi 3 was probably addressed to the whole nation of Israel and Judah (3:6 "O descendants of Jacob"), not specifically to the priests. More importantly, using multiple inferences like this on Malachi 3 to establish a doctrine regarding Melchizedek is probably not good exegesis. It is quite clear that Malachi did not have Melchizedek in mind when he wrote Malachi 3.Thirdly, Melchizedec is both a king and high priest of God. The man like the Son of God is the mediator between God and Abram. Yes, the order of Melchizedec is superior to the Aaronic priesthood. The actions of Melchizedec define the content of the order of Melchizedec. There is much to understand. "called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,' of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing." Hebrews 5:10-11 The writer of Hebrews wants to share much more about Melchizedec but these people will not understand because they have become dull of hearing. Do you believe that Scripture supports this statement? If there is more to know of Melchizedec will it not be supported elsewhere in Scripture?(4) With Hebrews 5:10-11, the author digressed to talk about the need for spiritual maturity and he returned in chapter 7 to explain explicitly what was "so hard to explain" about Melchizedek.References to Melchizedek are explicitly made only in Genesis 14, Psalms 110 and in Hebrews. An exposition of these passages will therefore form the most important and primary basis for such a study. Our most fundamental interpretive difference is in point (1) above.

Agent 001 wrote,""(3) Note also that Malachi 3 was probably addressed to the whole nation of Israel and Judah (3:6 "O descendants of Jacob"), not specifically to the priests. More importantly, using multiple inferences like this on Malachi 3 to establish a doctrine regarding Melchizedek is probably not good exegesis. It is quite clear that Malachi did not have Melchizedek in mind when he wrote Malachi 3.""I believe that the writer of Hebrews when he wrote: "Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedec met him," (Hebrews 7:9) was giving us valuable information. Now some may say that this verse should be interpreted as an analogy saying that the Order of Melchizedec would be a greater priesthood than the Aaronic priesthood. Now I believe that it is true that there is symbolism here. But what does it really symbolize? I believe it does teach that the Order of Melchizedec is superior. But that is not all that it symbolizes. This event took place at a point in time. It was a real event. Abraham really paid tithes to Melchizedec. The symbolizism that Levi, so to speak, paid tithes through his father's loins represents the future submission of the Levitical order to the Order of Melchizedec. It points to the fact that the Levitical priesthood had Melchizedec as their High Priest of the Almighty God. In terms of paying tithes in the OT, can we not look to the NT for the answer? Who do we pay tithes too? Does not the individual pay tithes to the Church. Does not the Church pay tithes for God's work? Who owns the Church? Is it not our High Priest Jesus Christ? Agent 001 wrote:""(1) I already noted that the author of Hebrews consciously maintained the distinction between Melchizedek and Christ (e.g. 7:15 - "another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek"). From this perspective, Melchizedek is a historical figure who had earthly parents and had obviously died. However, the author of Psalm 110 and Hebrews applied the story figuratively to the Davidic king and Christ himself noting that, contrary to usual Jewish practice, Melchizedek's genealogy was missing in scripture.""I believe the author when he speaks of "another priest in the likeness of Melchizedec," is not speaking to the distinction of the individual, but to how God is carrying out His plan. As we see in Scripture that God has chosen Israel as His peculiar nation. It is the natural branch. Likewise in God's plan there is the time of the gentiles, the wild branch. In the former Israel had the temple. In the present we have the church. I believe that Scriptures tells us that the natural branch will be grafted back in during the 1000 year reign of Christ. I am trying to point out here God's plan over time. Using the NT as a basis for what I believe, we the church, have as our High Priest, Jesus Christ. Like Iwpray wrote about in his thread, we are all called to be part of the royal priesthood. Some are called to be prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelist, and etc. Likewise in the OT God had given the nation of Israel the same opportunity. But most failed because they did not believe the gospel that was preached to them. I know that what we have in the church age also existed in the temple age. "On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, and repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old;" Amos 9:11 Now in the NT apostle James quotes the same verse stating that God has established what He set out to do. Please look at what this verse says, God was going to rebuild what was once good. The tabernacle of David had fallen down and now James in Acts 15:16 says that now this has been accomplished. The work of rebuilding means a renewing of something that had existed before. I submit to all that Jesus Christ was the High Priest of Melchizedec ministering to the Aaronic Priesthood as well as the nation. So when the author states that another must come to replace the Aaronic priesthood, he is differentiating between God's work through Melchizedec over the Aaronic Priesthood and God's work through the Order of Melchizedec over the Church. So I believe God is the same always, one must look to who God is working on. Jesus says, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Matthew 23:37 Please note Jesus defines the time of His work, "the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! Please note that Jesus says, I wanted to gather your children." Was not one of the titles given to Melchizedec, King of Salem? Salem would become the city of Jerusalem. In Christ Jeff

Agent 001 wrote:"" More importantly, using multiple inferences like this on Malachi 3 to establish a doctrine regarding Melchizedek is probably not good exegesis. It is quite clear that Malachi did not have Melchizedek in mind when he wrote Malachi 3."Also:""(4) With Hebrews 5:10-11, the author digressed to talk about the need for spiritual maturity and he returned in chapter 7 to explain explicitly what was "so hard to explain" about Melchizedek.References to Melchizedek are explicitly made only in Genesis 14, Psalms 110 and in Hebrews. An exposition of these passages will therefore form the most important and primary basis for such a study. Our most fundamental interpretive difference is in point (1) above.""As you know I have posted my beliefs on the effects of Systematic Theology on another thread, here I would like to point out the evidence of what I see happening not only here but throughtout the evangelical teaching. My point is this. I have seen men create rules defined by a term exergesis. Evangelical thought is; since we can't understand it we will make rules to help us come to terms with what we don't understand nor can we explain. Do you know that Judaism came up with the same solution. It was called the Oral Law. The Oral Law was created to complete the Written Law. A Pharisee under the Law came to the conclusion that he did not know how to obey the 4th commandment of God. Make the Sabbath Holy. In the 613 laws given to Israel, virtually nothing was given by God to man how to make the Sabbath holy. So they came up with the Oral Law which Jesus who is the Word of God was accused of breaking. So I submit to you all that we suffer in the likeness to the Oral Law.I would not have understood that the gospel was given to the OT saints just like it was given to the NT saints. When I saw this precept in Romans and Hebrews, I searched the Scriptures. My views do not conform to those who are in bondage to the Systematic Laws. If the writer of Hebrews says that there is much to be learned of this Melchizedec, I believed that Scripture would support what he wrote. If I had limited myself by the Systematic law, I would not have begun to understand how God works throughout His plan. The mysteries of God are for all who would submit to His law. The Law of Christ. Give up the Systematic Law, find liberty in the Holy Spirit.In ChristJeff

Jeff,The symbolizism that Levi, so to speak, paid tithes through his father's loins represents the future submission of the Levitical order to the Order of Melchizedec. It points to the fact that the Levitical priesthood had Melchizedec as their High Priest of the Almighty God. In terms of paying tithes in the OT, can we not look to the NT for the answer? Who do we pay tithes too? Does not the individual pay tithes to the Church. Does not the Church pay tithes for God's work? Who owns the Church? Is it not our High Priest Jesus Christ? (1) Yes, according to Hebrews, the priesthood of Christ after the pattern of Melchizedek is superior to the Levitical priesthood. There is no dispute on this part.(2) I agree with the fundamental principle that you are trying to draw: Both tithing in the OT and giving in the NT (there is no explicit reference to the giving of one-tenth in the NT) are done to God and for God. This part is not in dispute at all.However, I do not see why we have to bring Melchizedek into the equation in order to make the same point. I believe the author when he speaks of "another priest in the likeness of Melchizedec," is not speaking to the distinction of the individual, but to how God is carrying out His plan. As we see in Scripture that God has chosen Israel as His peculiar nation. It is the natural branch. Likewise in God's plan there is the time of the gentiles, the wild branch. In the former Israel had the temple. In the present we have the church. I believe that Scriptures tells us that the natural branch will be grafted back in during the 1000 year reign of Christ. I am trying to point out here God's plan over time.Using the NT as a basis for what I believe, we the church, have as our High Priest, Jesus Christ. Like Iwpray wrote about in his thread, we are all called to be part of the royal priesthood. (3) I have no objections to the above at all. None of this is inconsistent with what I was saying....Likewise in the OT God had given the nation of Israel the same opportunity. But most failed because they did not believe the gospel that was preached to them. I know that what we have in the church age also existed in the temple age. (4) The way I would put it: God had called the nation of Israel to become a priesthood. But because of their consistent stubbornness and disobedience, God had subsequently chosen the tribe of Levi from the Israelites, and then the house of Aaron from the Levi as priests. This is a picture of what God wants to have ultimately in the NT time - a royal priesthood of all believers."On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, and repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old;" Amos 9:11 Now in the NT apostle James quotes the same verse stating that God has established what He set out to do. Please look at what this verse says, God was going to rebuild what was once good. The tabernacle of David had fallen down and now James in Acts 15:16 says that now this has been accomplished. The work of rebuilding means a renewing of something that had existed before. (5) This is not in dispute either. God's persistent purpose is to have a people that belongs to him, a royal priesthood, a holy nation where his presence will be with them. This is foreshadowed by David's tabernacle, and the subsequent temples built in Jerusalem. The further revelation in the NT indicates that God's focus is the church, the Body of Christ.I submit to all that Jesus Christ was the High Priest of Melchizedec ministering to the Aaronic Priesthood as well as the nation. So when the author states that another must come to replace the Aaronic priesthood, he is differentiating between God's work through Melchizedec over the Aaronic Priesthood and God's work through the Order of Melchizedec over the Church. So I believe God is the same always, one must look to who God is working on. (6) As you can see, I agree with a lot that you have said before, but throughout the process, you have not substantiated your claim that the historical figure of Melchizedek is Christ himself at all and that the order of Melchizedek literally existed throughout history.Jesus says, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Matthew 23:37 Please note Jesus defines the time of His work, "the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! Please note that Jesus says, I wanted to gather your children." (7) There is no dispute that throughout the ages God had wanted to "gather his children" and that the Israelites had rejected God and his messenger. There is no dispute that Jesus is God and a person within the trinity. The puzzling part is what connection are you trying to make here with respect to Melchizedek being the preincarnate appearance of Jesus?Surely, as I have consistently mentioned before, Christ as the priest after the pattern of Melchizedek is superior to the Levitical priesthood. That is the point the author of Hebrews is trying to make, exhorting the original Jewish Christian audience not to revert back to the old covenant. Likewise, today Christ is supreme over all things. Substituting him with anything less is to fail to grasp the meaning of the new covenant.

Jeff,You have to be careful of your habit of using obscure and difficult passage to explain the obscure. This is bad exegesis. At a point in time, Abram paid tithes to Melchizedec. At a point in time, Jesus said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day and he saw it. At a point in time, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am. (1) You seemed to be trying to relate John 8:56 and Genesis 14. The implicit claim is that the day when Abraham rejoiced was the time when he offered tithe to Melchizedek. This interpretation is highly improbable and subjective. It is better left unexplained than forcing a preconceived idea into the text.At a point in time Jesus said take and eat this is My body...Take and drink this is My blood. At a point in time, Melchizedec broke bread and shared wine with Abram.(2) It is interesting how you try to add your own touch to Genesis 14 by the words "broke" and "shared" to make the connection to the Lord's Table (John 6) seem more probable. This is forcing your own theological framework into the Word. At a point in time, Jesus was crucified. At a point in time, David said, "The Lord said to my Lord, sit at My right hand,...The Lord has sworn and will not relent, "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedec." When did that happen?(3) Psalm 110 came to be understood as a Messianic prophecy; but its original context is applied to the kings in the line of David. The language here is figurative (not uncommon in Hebrew poetry). It is not saying that there is a line of "priests" known as "the order of Melchizedek" -- there is no biblical nor extrabiblical evidences at all on that. In fact, scholars have argued that the word "order" carries the sense, "according to the manner of" (BDB 184). That's why one translation says, "You are an eternal priest after the pattern of Melchizedek." So the Davidic king or Jesus were not identified as Melchizedek; they merely share likeness with Melchizedek's description in scripture.Obviously, it does not change the fact that Jesus was crucified some two thousand years ago.At what point in time were all things created through Jesus Christ?Well, the trinity coexists equally, so obviously God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all participated in the work of creation in Genesis. What does this have to do with Melchizedek?

Jeff,As you know I have posted my beliefs on the effects of Systematic Theology on another thread, here I would like to point out the evidence of what I see happening not only here but throughtout the evangelical teaching. My point is this. I have seen men create rules defined by a term exergesis. Evangelical thought is; since we can't understand it we will make rules to help us come to terms with what we don't understand nor can we explain. Do you know that Judaism came up with the same solution. It was called the Oral Law. The Oral Law was created to complete the Written Law. A Pharisee under the Law came to the conclusion that he did not know how to obey the 4th commandment of God. Make the Sabbath Holy. In the 613 laws given to Israel, virtually nothing was given by God to man how to make the Sabbath holy. So they came up with the Oral Law which Jesus who is the Word of God was accused of breaking. So I submit to you all that we suffer in the likeness to the Oral Law.I would not have understood that the gospel was given to the OT saints just like it was given to the NT saints. When I saw this precept in Romans and Hebrews, I searched the Scriptures. My views do not conform to those who are in bondage to the Systematic Laws. If the writer of Hebrews says that there is much to be learned of this Melchizedec, I believed that Scripture would support what he wrote. If I had limited myself by the Systematic law, I would not have begun to understand how God works throughout His plan. The mysteries of God are for all who would submit to His law. The Law of Christ. Give up the Systematic Law, find liberty in the Holy Spirit.Interesting thoughts. It will take another thread to discuss this. Let's put aside the term "exegesis" for the moment.We are both reading the Scripture and we are both aspiring to understand the Word by the illumination of the Spirit. We both unavoidably bring our own theological assumptions and framework before the biblical text, and the goal for both of us should be to let the Word of God speak for itself. What I was appealing for, is that we should not impose our own thoughts and framework on to the Word of God and force the Word to say what we want it to say (or hope it would say). It is that simple - don't mix it up with whatever you think is the "Oral Law", "Systematic Law", etc.But now, you are asserting that others and I are by default submitting to "Systematic Law," whereas you are confident of your own "liberty in the Spirit"? To me, it sounds like your way of saying "I am always right and you are aways wrong because I am always in the Spirit and you are in the Law"!I appreciate much of your contributions and you will find that when I do respond to your posts, I try as best I could to understand your points. In pointing out our interpretive differences, my intention was not to argue for argument's sake, but to apply the "Berean test" to what you have shared -- "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (Acts 17:11) Well, since even Paul's preaching had to scrutinized by scripture, I do not think anyone else could be exempted from the same test. As much as you do, I fully aspire to "reason from the Scriptures" as Paul did (Acts 17:2). I did not anticipate being simply dismissed as some proponents of "Systematic Law". If the writer of Hebrews says that there is much to be learned of this Melchizedec, I believed that Scripture would support what he wrote. I certainly believe so too. However, that does not mean we could interpret Scripture completely out of its context and make it say what you want it to say. Now my interpretations could well be wrong, but I expect you to "reason from the Scripture," not by merely dismissing others by putting the label of "Systematic Law" on them.

Agent 001 wrote:""But now, you are asserting that others and I are by default submitting to "Systematic Law," whereas you are confident of your own "liberty in the Spirit"? To me, it sounds like your way of saying "I am always right and you are aways wrong because I am always in the Spirit and you are in the Law"!As my name implies, I am a rookie. Young in years and inexperienced with sharing my thoughts. I thankyou for pointing this out continually. I thankyou for forcing me to think in terms of others. I thankyou for forcing me to ponder the questions that are brought to mind as I share.Thankyou Agent 001 and all the brothers and sisters. And I am sorry once again.In Christ Jeff

Agent 001 wrote:""(1) You seemed to be trying to relate John 8:56 and Genesis 14. The implicit claim is that the day when Abraham rejoiced was the time when he offered tithe to Melchizedek. This interpretation is highly improbable and subjective. It is better left unexplained than forcing a preconceived idea into the text.""My rant was not focusing on saying that John 8:56 and Genesis 14 are the same moment. The idea I am trying to bring to light is to have us look at the difference in how we percieve time and how God exists outside of our preceptions. That probably doesn't make sense either. I believe God through Jesus has predestined the work of Jesus before Adam existed. The points in time where He is revealed in Scripture merely indicates that God is reconciling the world to Himself through Jesus Christ. When Melchizedec met Abraham, this was a real event. In terms of Jesus revealing that Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad, speaks of a relationship which existed between Jesus and Abraham. This relationship spoken of in the past tense speaks to me as that it happened during Abraham's life. Agent 001 wrote:""(2) It is interesting how you try to add your own touch to Genesis 14 by the words "broke" and "shared" to make the connection to the Lord's Table (John 6) seem more probable. This is forcing your own theological framework into the Word.""I am sorry for using those words. In my mind, that is what happened. The Scriptures say, "And Melchizedec king of Salem brought forth bread and wine; and he was priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God..." Genesis 14:18=19 The idea of ceremony is presented here. The bread and the wine are used as part of the ceremony of Melchizedec blessing Abram. So I see the "type" in the NT manifest itself at the last supper. This ceremony NT or OT, I believe are the same. Agent 001 wrote:""(3) Psalm 110 came to be understood as a Messianic prophecy; but its original context is applied to the kings in the line of David. The language here is figurative (not uncommon in Hebrew poetry). It is not saying that there is a line of "priests" known as "the order of Melchizedek" -- there is no biblical nor extrabiblical evidences at all on that. In fact, scholars have argued that the word "order" carries the sense, "according to the manner of" (BDB 184). That's why one translation says, "You are an eternal priest after the pattern of Melchizedek." So the Davidic king or Jesus were not identified as Melchizedek; they merely share likeness with Melchizedek's description in scripture.""I agree with you in the fact that Scripture does not support that there was a line of priests who make up the order of Melchizedec. Thankyou for adding the thought of "scholars have argued that the word order carries the sense, "according to the manner of." I believe this supports my understanding that only one individual could have ever "acted or ministered" as High Priest of God Almighty. I believe theologically, no other man ever existed that is equal to the Son of God. In the near future I hope to begin indentifying in Scripture how the High Priest is able to minister to those who are His. Agent 001 wrote:""Well, the trinity coexists equally, so obviously God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all participated in the work of creation in Genesis. What does this have to do with Melchizedek?""I do not limit God's work through Jesus Christ to Genesis only. God exists outside of time. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3 I understand this thought to mean that all things that was made, refers to the beginning to the end. I believe this includes tomorrow. In ChristJeff

Agent 001 wrote:""However, I do not see why we have to bring Melchizedek into the equation in order to make the same point.""The emphasis of this thread is to shed light on the OT. I once said that all I need is the NT. An old man who I did not know stood up and offered this. "I live in the OT. All the mysteries of God are revealed in the OT. This is where God reveals Himself to me." Those words penetrated my soul that night.Since then I have also found that the treasure is found in the OT. In terms of Melchizedec, if Christ is Melchizedec, then how does that affect our understanding of Scripture. I submit it is profound. In ChristJeff

Jeff:I am a rookie as well. We are all still learning and growing. After all, I have not even reached thirty years old yet. :PThe emphasis of this thread is to shed light on the OT. I once said that all I need is the NT. An old man who I did not know stood up and offered this. "I live in the OT. All the mysteries of God are revealed in the OT. This is where God reveals Himself to me." Those words penetrated my soul that night.Thanks for sharing your personal story. It in a sense explains to me why you seemed to be trying so very hard to emphasise that all three persons of the triune God participate in the divine work from eternity to eternity, including the OT (I certainly believe the same). It seems odd to me at first because I thought it's a fact that does not need much proof for most Christians today.In terms of Melchizedec, if Christ is Melchizedec, then how does that affect our understanding of Scripture. I submit it is profound. "...if Christ is Melchizedek,"--that brings us back to the original question. Do you actually mean that Melchizedek in Genesis 14 is divine, not human? Can you elaborate on how you think this will "affect our understanding of Scripture"?I would like to listen to the underlying assumptions and reasons before I make further comments. I think that would be more mutally edifying.

Agent 001 wrote:""...if Christ is Melchizedek,"--that brings us back to the original question. Do you actually mean that Melchizedek in Genesis 14 is divine, not human? Can you elaborate on how you think this will "affect our understanding of Scripture"?" Many of the things I write about are thoughts that are becoming more clear to me as I read the Scriptures. Many of the things I write about, I see only a direction in which I must pursue. So when I share these thoughts in a forum like this, the questions, many bring to me I have not myself considered. That is where Philogos excells at patiently sharing detail by detail in explaining His thoughts. I have much to learn.In terms of assumptions, Scripture clearly says that Jesus is our High Priest and King. He is the head of the Church, meaning not buildings but the people. I believe that I see that Jesus was also head of the Temple. Not the building but the people. The Temple was consecrated by King Solomon. Prior to that, God so to speak lived in a tent. The time prior to the Temple. Prior to the Covenant made on Mount Sinai, where did God dwell? Each of these thoughts, I believe are treasures to be understood. Questions come to mind, how are these differents times the same? But what is most important to me is searching the Scriptures to find how God's precepts, statutes, ordinances, commands, and judgements (Psalm 119) manifest themselves in all believers no matter when they lived in time. To understand how David could write about the things of God and then meditate on how David's thoughts are becoming my thoughts is my path. I believe that God through Jesus has always sought to establish personal relationships with all men. I believe that by faith, those who choose to listen and obey repent of self-rule and learn day by day to follow Him. When we stumble Christ's sacrifice covers us with His righteousness. That is the function of the High Priest. He intercedes for us. But He also teaches us how to stay on His path. He speaks to us through the Holy Spirit, sometimes we dream dreams, other times He sends someone to exhort us. He sends someone to correct us. Sometimes in His wisdom He chastens us severly in the hope that we would repent and follow Him. This is the duty of the High Priest. He is the King over all creation. So if He is Melchizedec, that means He was doing then what He is doing now. So if that is true, then how does that change what we teach about in terms of seperating the work of God in the OT from the NT. There are many implications which I myself have not even begun to recognize. In ChristJeff

"Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that woud come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow," 1 Peter 1:10-11 Here we hear that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets testifiying to them before it happened the sufferings that Christ would experience and the glory that would follow. I saw the movie "Passion" this last Saturday. This verse came to mind as I sat there watching man's idea of how Jesus trembled in the garden of Gethsemane. Jesus knew everything that He would suffer before He experienced it as man. Likewise, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confessions. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:14-16I write this now to ask, at what point in time was Jesus able to sympathize with man? The point of my question is to focus on God's time and our time. I believe in 1 Peter we know that the prophets were told of the sufferings Christ would go through. It said that the Spirit of Christ was in them speaking to them of what would come to be at some time in the future. Now in Hebrews 4 it says that Christ is able to understand our weaknesses which means that He is able to have compassion and mercy for us. I believe this understanding has always existed in Christ. So He was always able to love man as High Priest. In ChristJeff

"Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, "Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above. But Ahaz said, I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord! Then he said, "Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign; Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. The Lord will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father's house--days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah." Isaiah 7:10-17 Now we see the prophesy of Jesus planted in the middle of a judgement that is coming upon Judah. Ahaz will turn out to be a wicked king. In verse 14, we are given a prophesy, yet this is also a sign for Ahaz. This sign is given at that moment in time to a king who would go bad. Following on into chapter 8, Isaiah continues to declare that Assyria will invade the land. And at the end of verse 8 it is written, "Will fill the breadth of Your land O Immanuel." Isaiah 8:8I believe that Immanuel is reigning over Judah at the time of Ahaz. God is foretelling the judgement He is bringing upon His disobedient people. Yet God speaks to Isaiah, "For the Lord spoke thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying; Do not say, A conspiracy, concerning all that this people call a conspiracy, nor be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled. The Lord of hosts, Him you shall hallow; Let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread. He will be as a santuary, but a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem." Here we see that God is promising Isaiah that He will be his sanctuary. And He will also be a rock of offense for both houses, Israel and Jerusalem. I believe this applies to judgement that would come upon Israel by the hand of God. Assyria would be God's tool used to judge the two houses. Yet in the middle of this judgement God provides a sanctuary for the faithful. "And I will wait on the Lord, who hides His face from the house of Jacob; and I will hope in Him. Here am I and the children whom the Lord has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, who dwells in Mount Zion." Isaiah 8:17-18 I believe this speaks of a faithful group of children who were along with Isaiah nurtured and protected and called upon to be the witness during a specific point in time. This judgement would come long before Jesus was born of a virgin. The King of Righteousness and Peace acting upon his people according to the order of Melchizedec.In ChristJeff

I wrote in the preceding thread:""And I will wait on the Lord, who hides His face from the house of Jacob; and I will hope in Him. Here am I and the children whom the Lord has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, who dwells in Mount Zion." Isaiah 8:17-18 I believe this speaks of a faithful group of children who were along with Isaiah nurtured and protected and called upon to be the witness during a specific point in time. This judgement would come long before Jesus was born of a virgin.""Many say that the way Isaiah writes is confusing. Let us look to Hebrews 2:11-13. "For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying: "I will declare Your name to My brethren; in the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You." And again; "I will put My trust in Him." And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me." First look to what verse 11 says. Both Jesus and those who are sanctified by Him are all of one. This is saying that Jesus is sanctifying or setting apart those who follow Him. He and those who follow Him become one. This is important to understand. Remember in Romans 5:10, we are reconciled to God through the death of His Son, "much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." It is His life being grown into those who are faithful which makes us one with Him. He is our righteousness. So when King David or Isaiah seem to be both talking of themselves and yet Jesus in the NT refers to Himself with these Scriptures it is because David and Isaiah are "all of one." So in Hebrews 2:12-13, the writer ascribes or attaches these verses to Jesus actually saying these things. It is the work of our High Priest who sanctifies those who follow Him in faith. What do we who are faithful receive? Him.In Christ Jeff

Do you hear the Lord speaking through His faithful? Jesus is our Lord, He speaks through His faithful. Hear the words spoken and writen by Isaiah. Hear Jesus's heart for His Father in the words of David. In ChristJeff

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away..." John 15:1-2"For if the firstfruits is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root..." Romans 11:16-17"The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches." Matthew 13:31-32Within these three sections of Scripture we see the idea of a branch brought forth. The branch is sustained by the root. Also take notice to the idea that there are many branches. Also take notice that when a branch becomes unfruitful it is broken off, and other branches are grafted in. Now let us look to Isaiah and Zechariah.First, looking back to my last posts, remember, that Jesus and all who are faithful become one. We are: "children, then heirs-heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ,..." Romans 8:17 With this idea in mind, then it is Christ who is the source of our spiritual birth. It is Christ who nurtures our growth. It is Christ who makes us a new creation. Now look to Isaiah. "There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord." Isaiah 11:1-2 I believe this Scripture tells us of the work of Jesus and His creating a holy branch in the kingdom of God. A tree has many branches. As we read through Scripture in the OT we see this idea repeated. Remember what Romans said, "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them..." Paul teaches that branches were broken off, other branches remained, and new ones were grafted in. Now let us go to Zechariah."Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, and He shall build the temple of the Lord; Yes He shall build the temple of the Lord, He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on His throne;and a counsel of peace shall be between them both." Zechariah 6:12-13 I believe this Branch who is the priest who sit on His throne is Jesus Christ. I believe the Branch is created by Jesus at the time of when God brought back the captives from the Babylonian exile and surrounding area. The temple was rebuilt during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah. I believe the history of the Bible actually is centered on the work of Jesus creating Branches of faithful generations. I believe the times of revivals that have occured in the last 2000 years speaks to this ongoing work of our High Priest.In ChristJeff

Jesus is the High Priest. In the NT, He sends the Holy Spirit to take what is His and gives it to us who follow the Spirit. The Spirit declares GOD IS WITH US. God was with the OT saints as well. The manner of how the priestly order of Melchizedec ministered must be in alignment with the NT Scriptures. The OT Melchizedec must preform the same way as Jesus ministers in the NT. Otherwise, God would not have said, "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, You are a priest forever ACCORDING to the order of Melchizedec.." Hebrews 7:20 The order of Melchizedec was established before the foundation of this world. It is an unchanging priestly order. And Jesus is our High Priest.In ChristJeff

Many thanks to eagleswings for his submittal on another thread. Andrew Murray speaks of the work of our High Priest. Work through this and hear His voice.ABIDE IN CHRIST -- THAT YOU MAY NOT SIN by Andrew Murray"In him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." 1 Joh 3:5,6."YE KNOW," the apostle had said, "that He was manifested to take away our sin," and had thus indicated salvation from sin as the great object for which the Son was made man. The connection shows clearly that the taking away has reference not only to the atonement and freedom from guilt, but to deliverance from the power of sin, so that the believer no longer does it. It is Christ's personal holiness that constitutes His power to effect this purpose. He admits sinners into life union with Himself; the result is, that their life becomes like His. "In Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not." As long as he abides, and as far as he abides, the believer does not sin. Our holiness of life has its roots in the personal holiness of Jesus. "If the root be holy, so also are the branches."The question at once arises: How is this consistent with what the Bible teaches of the abiding corruption of our human nature, or with what John himself tells of the utter falsehood of our profession, if we say that we have no sin, that we have not singled? (see I John 1:8,10). It is just this passage which, if we look carefully at it, will teach us to understand our text aright. Note the difference in the two statements (ver. 8), "If we say that we have no sin," and (ver.10), "If we say that we have not sinned." The two expressions cannot be equivalent; the second would then be an unmeaning repetition of the first. Having sin in verse 8 is not the same as doing sin in verse 10. Having sin is having a sinful nature. The holiest believer must each moment confess that he has sin within him-the flesh, namely, in which dwelleth no good thing. Sinning or doing sin is something very different: it is yielding to indwelling sinful nature, and falling into actual transgression. And so we have two admissions that every true believer must make. The one is that he has still sin within him (ver. 8); the second, that that sin has in former times broken out into sinful actions (ver.10). No believer can say either, "I have no sin in me," or "I have in time past never sinned." If we say we have no sin at present, or that we have not sinned in the past, we deceive ourselves. But no confession, though we have sin in the present, is demanded that we are doing sin in the present too; the confession of actual sinning refers to the past. It may, as appears from chapter 2:2, be in the present also, but is expected not to be. And so we see how the deepest confession of sin in the past (as Paul's of his having been a persecutor), and the deepest consciousness of having still a vile and corrupt nature in the present, may consist with humble but joyful praise to Him who keeps from stumbling.But how is it possible that a believer, having sin in him-sin of such intense vitality, and such terrible power as we know the flesh to have-that a believer having sin should yet not be doing sin? The answer is: "In Him is no sin. He that abideth in Him sinneth not." When the abiding in Christ becomes close and unbroken, so that the soul lives from moment to moment in the perfect union with the Lord its keeper, He does, indeed, keep down the power of the old nature, so that it does not regain dominion over the soul. We have seen that there are degrees in the abiding. With most Christians the abiding is so feeble and intermittent, that sin continually obtains the ascendency, and brings the soul into subjection. The divine promise given to faith is: "Sin shall not have dominion over you." But with the promise is the command: "Let not sin reign in your mortal body." The believer who claims the promise in full faith has the power to obey the command, and sin is kept from asserting its supremacy. Ignorance of the promise, or unbelief, or unwatchfulness, opens the door for sin to reign. And so the life of many believers is a course of continual stumbling and sinning. But when the believer seeks full admission into, and a permanent abode in Jesus, the Sinless One, then the life of Christ keeps from actual transgression. "In Him is no sin. He that abideth in Him sinneth not. " Jesus does indeed save him from his sin-not by the removal of his sinful nature, but by keeping him from yielding to it.I have read of a young lion whom nothing could awe or keep down but the eye of his keeper. With the keeper you could come near him, and he would crouch, his savage nature all unchanged, and thirsting for blood -trembling at the keeper's feet. You might put your foot on his neck, as long as the keeper was with you. To approach him without the keeper would be instant death. And so it is that the believer can have sin and yet not do sin. The evil nature, the flesh, is unchanged in its enmity against God, but the abiding presence of Jesus keeps it down. In faith the believer entrusts himself to the keeping, to the indwelling, of the Son of God; he abides in Him, and counts on Jesus to abide in Him too. The union and fellowship is the secret of a holy life: "In Him is no sin; he that abideth in Him sinneth not."And now another question will arise: Admitted that the complete abiding in the Sinless One will keep from sinning, is such abiding possible? May we hope to be able so to abide in Christ, say, even for one day, that we may be kept from actual transgressions? The question has only to be fairly stated and considered-- will suggest its own answer. When Christ commanded us to abide in Him, and promised us such rich fruit-bearing to the glory of the Father, and such mighty power in our intercessions, can He have meant anything but the healthy, vigorous, complete union of the branch with the vine? When He promised that as we abide in Him He would abide in us, could He mean anything but that His dwelling in us would be a reality of divine power and love? Is not this way of saving from sin just that which will glorify Him?keeping us daily humble and helpless in the consciousness of the evil nature, watchful and active in the knowledge of its terrible power, dependent and trustful in the remembrance that only His presence can keep the lion down. O let us believe that when Jesus said, "Abide in me, and I in you," He did indeed mean that, while we were not to be freed from the world and its tribulation, from the sinful nature and its temptations, we were at least to have this blessing fully secured to us-grace to abide wholly, only, even in our Lord. The abiding in Jesus makes it possible to keep from actual sinning; and Jesus Himself makes it possible to abide in Him.Beloved Christian! I do not wonder if the promise of the text appears almost too high. Do not, I pray, let your attention be diverted by the question as to whether it would be possible to be kept for your whole life, or for so many years, without sinning. Faith has ever only to deal with the present moment. Ask this: Can Jesus at the present moment, as I abide in Him, keep me from those actual transgressions which have been the stain and the weariness of my daily life? You cannot but say: Surely He can. Take Him then at this present moment, and say, "Jesus keeps me now, Jesus saves me now." Yield yourself to Him in the earnest and believing prayer to be kept abiding, by His own abiding in you-and go into the next moment, and the succeeding hours, with this trust continually renewed. As often as the opportunity occurs in the moments between your occupations, renew your faith in an act of devotion: Jesus keeps me now, Jesus saves me now. Let failure and sin, instead of discouraging you, only urge you still more to seek your safety in abiding in the Sinless One. Abiding is a grace in which you can grow wonderfully, if you will but make at once the complete surrender, and then persevere with ever larger expectations. Regard it as His work to keep you abiding in Him, and His work to keep you from sinning. It is indeed your work to abide in Him; but it is that, only because it is His work as Vine to bear and hold the branch. Gaze upon His holy human nature as what He prepared ,for you to be partaker of with Himself, and you will see that there is something even higher and better than being kept from sin-that is but the restraining from evil: there is the positive and larger blessing of being now a vessel purified and cleansed, of being filled with His fulness, and made the channel of showing forth His power, His blessing, and His glory.NOTEIS DAILY SINNING AN INEVITABLE NECESSITY?"Why is it that, when we possess a Saviour whose love and lower are infinite, we are so often filled with fear and despondency? We are wearied and faint in our minds, because we do not look stedfastly unto Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who is set down at the right hand of God-unto Him whose omnipotence embraces both heaven and earth, who is strong and mighty in His feeble saints."While we remember our weakness, we forget His all-sufficient power. While we acknowledge that apart from Christ we can do nothing, we do not rise to the height or depth of Christian humility: I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. While we trust in the power of the death of Jesus to cancel the guilt of sin, we do not exercise a reliant and appropriating faith in the omnipotence of the living Saviour to deliver us from the bondage and power of sin in our daily life. We forget that Christ worketh in us mightily, and that, one with Him, we possess strength sufficient to overcome every temptation. We are apt either to forget our nothingness, and imagine that in our daily path we can live without sin, that the duties and trials of our everyday life can be performed and borne in our own strength; or we do not avail ourselves of the omnipotence of Jesus, who is able to subdue all things to Himself, and to keep us from the daily infirmities and falls which we are apt to imagine an inevitable necessity. If we really depended in all things and at all times on Christ, we would in all things and at all times gain the victory through Him whose power is infinite, and who is appointed by the Father to be the Captain of our salvation. Then all our deeds would be wrought, not merely before, but in God. We would then do all things to the glory of the Father, in the allpowerful name of Jesus, who is our sanctification. Remember that unto Him all power is given in heaven and on earth, and live by the constant exercise of faith in His power. Let us most fully believe that we have and are nothing, that with man it is impossible, that in ourselves we have no life which can bring forth fruit; but that Christ is all-that abiding in Him, and His word dwelling in us, we can bring forth fruit to the glory of the Father" - From Christ and the Church. Sermons by Adolph Saphir. "These words describe the fruits of a relationship with our High Priest. In Christ Jeff

Going back to a recent post, I would like to again talk about the Branch. The kingdom of God is likened to a tree in Romans 11:18,"And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree." The branches and the Branch are one. It is only through Jesus that men are co heirs with Christ. Art Katz in his book, True Fellowship; To Him Be The Glory In The Church, clears up what I believe to be a misunderstanding that is pervasive in today's teachings. Christ in you, is not a mystery for the faithful generations of Jews that preceded Christ. However, it is a mystery for the gentile (heathen). Meditate on what Art Katz writes.One BodyThe "body" mentioned in verse 6 is the already existing body of Jewish believers who never left the faith, who recognized and received the Messiah and who received the Holy Spirit that was promised them. The mystery, however, is that Gentiles can now be fellow heirs with them and fellow partakers with them in Messiah Jesus through the gospel. The biblical faith of the God of Jacob, which is the inheritance of the Jews, has now been made available to Gentiles. In other words, Gentiles ‘stumbled’ into the Hebraic faith, and in fact, it is even a mystery that God welcomed them in! To be apprehended by, and brought into, an understanding of this mystery is calculated to change us—otherwise we will be brazen and arrogant: "Our Christianity." We have been allowed into something that has its roots in the God of Israel, and that goes back to the very inception of His redemptive history. Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both into one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity (Eph. 2:12-16). Gentiles, who were once without God and without hope in the world, have been brought, by the blood of the Messiah Jesus, into ‘the commonwealth of Israel’ where Jews in times past counted it unclean even to enter into a Gentile home. Paul reiterates this same mystery in Colossians 1:25-27,Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations; but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.There is no contradiction between these two texts. Gentiles are brought into the commonwealth of Israel, into their hopes and promises into Christ Himself. That is how we were brought in. It is the same mystery expressed in yet another way. In the past, believing Jews were in that Life, and now Gentiles are brought also into that same reality. This is not a cultural call to some "Judaistic" thing, but the Life of God in Messiah, in which Jewish believers and Gentiles are joined and made one new man. This is the faith to which we are called. In other words, God has brought Gentiles into the Hebraic root, a root that is in God and in the life sap of God through the blood of the Messiah Jesus! Gentiles, up to the time of Christ, had been outside and excluded from the faith with few exceptions. Together with the believing remnant of Jews of every generation, God is making of us one new man, and that is the genius of what we call the Church. Here we have the very essence of the wisdom of God. God is demonstrating to the powers of the air that not only can Jews and Gentiles sit alongside each other, but also that they have come to a place where they have equally transcended what is both Jewish and Gentile, and constitute now a new reality. It would be a reality never before seen, and that could only be established by the power of Messiah and His life. This is beyond what the world knows ‘unity’ to mean. The world is satisfied with "ecumenical" unity, some kind of religious-political thing where we agree to respect each other’s differences. God is, however, after something more glorious and which requires His power to establish, for which He has poured out His blood and given His Spirit. Two diverse and contrary entities becoming one new man is that glory.Christ in you is the work of the priestly order of Melchizedec. It is His Life that saves.In ChristJeff

I was reading through John this weekend. These thoughts came to mind. "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." John 1:18. Jesus has declared the Father to man. No one has seen God at any time. This is the work of our High Priest. In Hebrews chapter 8, "Now this is the main point of the things we are saying:, We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. Jesus is our High Priest, this is the main point. All grace flows through our Mediator. "And of His fulness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." John 1:16-17 The writer of Hebrews is going to make this same point. He will distinguish between the covenant made on Mount Sinai and the covenant made through Jesus Christ. Look at what each covenant has to offer through it's priesthood. "...Since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle." Hebrews 8:4-5. This is the work of the Levitical priesthood. They offer both gifts and sacrifices according to the law. This work is prescribed by the covenant made on Mount Sinai. But what does our High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec have to offer? The writer of Hebrews states, "For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices." The earthly priest offered gifts of grain, peace offerings etc. The earthly priest sacrificed the blood of animals as a covering for sin. But what does our High Priest have to offer according to the better covenant? The writer continues, "Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer." Hebrews 8:3 "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises." Hebrews 8:6. What is the main point of these better promises? Our High Priest declares the Father to us. He reveals God as He is not as we imagine. The substance of the new covenant is this: "...I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Hebrews 8:10 God also made this covenant with Abraham. "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you." Genesis 17:7 The promise of writing His laws in our minds and hearts reveals Himself to us. Do not others know us by how we act and by what we communicate to them. They only know us by what they observe coming from us. Paul writes, "For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received...the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God...For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:10-16.The writer of Hebrews continues, "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying "Know the Lord," for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them." Hebrews 8:11 Jesus our High Priest declares His Father to us. This it the nature of the offering our High Priest gives us. He sacrificed His own blood so that we might be reconciled to the Father. He then ministers to us by revealing the Father to us. How is this accomplished?Through the work of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist declares, "I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, "Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit." John 1:33 Please notice that John used the present active tense describing the work of Jesus. The Father declared about His Son the nature of His work. Jesus according to the order of Melchizedec baptizes with the Holy Spirit. This grace is extended to all who have received the promise made to Abraham. "Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts." Zechariah 4:6In ChristJeff

If the works of Jesus, according to the order of Melchizedec is to baptize with the Spirit, what does this imply to all men of every generation?What does this imply to those who seperate the Holy Scriptures into two parts?What does this imply to those who who don't see the work of Jesus in the books of the OT?What would happen if we begin to embrace the truth that God is the same, Jesus is the same, and the Holy Spirit is the same?Would persecution come from the religious leaders of today as it did when Jesus cried over Jerusalem? In ChristJeff

Our High Priest, Jesus Christ, is our King and Savior. All the works He does defines the impact that the priestly order of Melchizedec has on His creation. If one agrees with this statement, is there another who could do the works of the order of Melchizedec?In ChristJeff

Psalm 110:4, "The Lord has sworn and will not relent,You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." I believe this idea of the Father not relenting represents the continual work of the Father and the Son. The ceremony of the Father drawing men to Himself, and then handing them over the Son. This idea of the continual request of the Father to the Son, Will You add this one to your inheritance, will You prepare this one for Your bride? From the time of Adam to the end of this age, this is the representation of the priestly duties of the Son. The idea of unrelenting points to the numerous ceremonies, more than the stars in the sky. The Father continues to save, the Son continues to save through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is our high priest according to the works that are performed in line with the priestly order of Melchizedek.In ChristJeff

"Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. And the Pharisees said to Him, "Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?" "But He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him; how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?" "And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath." Mark 2:25-28What really is the Lord saying here. Remember He refers back in time to that of David. The Pharisees have there own law. Jesus was also Lord of their Sabbath. The Sabbath was set aside so that the people could be still and listen for His voice.In ChristJeff

I was reading the end of Jeremiah this morning and this thought came to mind. The final chapters talk of the judgement that is coming upon Babylon and all the nations of that time. Hear the judgement on Babylon:"You have indeed been trapped, O Babylon, and you were not aware; you have been found and also caught, because you have contended against the Lord. The Lord has opened His armory, and has brought out the weapons of His indignation; for this is the work of the Lord God of Hosts in the land of the Chaldeans...Repay her according to her work; according to all she has done, do to her; for she has been proud against the Lord, against the Holy One of Israel. Jeremiah 50:24-29This reminds me of Psalm 2:"Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His ANNOINTED, saying, "Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us." He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall hold them in derision.Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure; Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion." Psalm 2:1-7Do you see Psalm 2 in Jeremiah 50? Listen a little longer:"Thus says the Lord of hosts: "The children of Israel were oppressed, along with the children of Judah; all who took them captive have held them fast; they have refused to let them go." Jeremiah 50:33 This is the reason for God's wrath on Babylon. That nation disobeyed God in terms of its care for the captives, Judah and Israel. Now listen to whom the Lord speaks!"Their Redeemer is strong; The Lord of hosts is His name. He will thoroughly plead their case, that He may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon." Jeremiah 50:34Do you see the work of the King and High Priest Melchizedek? He is the King who rules with the rod of iron, He dashes the nation to pieces who act defiantly towards Him. Do you see the Redeemer of Judah and Israel, "He will plead their case, that He may give rest to the land..." Jeremiah 50:34 Do you see our Mediator pleading in behalf of His inheritance? Think back to the meeting between Abraham and Melchizedek. Abraham had just defeated the kings and then Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek. Then the Lord delivered His inheritance from the proud nations. Then the Lord gave rest to His people. Do you see the King with His rod and the Priest with His rest? In ChristJeff

Gen. 3:15 \tAnd I will put enmity\tBetween you and the woman,\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;\tHe shall bruise your head,\tAnd you shall bruise His heel.” We know that this precept was established the moment God declared it. We know that the seed of Satan existed in the Old Testament times. Is. 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. The strangers will be joined with them, and they will cling to the house of Jacob. 2 Then people will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them for servants and maids in the land of the LORD; they will take them captive whose captives they were, and rule over their oppressors. Is. 14:3 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:\t“How the oppressor has ceased,\tThe golden city ceased! 5 \tThe LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,\tThe scepter of the rulers; 6 \tHe who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,\tHe who ruled the nations in anger,\tIs persecuted and no one hinders. 7 \tThe whole earth is at rest and quiet;\tThey break forth into singing. 8 \tIndeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,\tAnd the cedars of Lebanon,\tSaying, “Since you were cut down,\tNo woodsman has come up against us.’ 9 \t“Hell from beneath is excited about you,\tTo meet you at your coming;\tIt stirs up the dead for you,\tAll the chief ones of the earth;\tIt has raised up from their thrones\tAll the kings of the nations. 10 \tThey all shall speak and say to you:\t“Have you also become as weak as we?\tHave you become like us? 11 \tYour pomp is brought down to Sheol,\tAnd the sound of your stringed instruments;\tThe maggot is spread under you,\tAnd worms cover you.’ 12 \t“How you are fallen from heaven,\tO Lucifer, son of the morning!\tHow you are cut down to the ground,\tYou who weakened the nations! 13 \tFor you have said in your heart:\t“I will ascend into heaven,\tI will exalt my throne above the stars of God;\tI will also sit on the mount of the congregation\tOn the farthest sides of the north; 14 \tI will ascend above the heights of the clouds,\tI will be like the Most High.’ 15 \tYet you shall be brought down to Sheol,\tTo the lowest depths of the Pit. 16 \t“Those who see you will gaze at you,\tAnd consider you, saying:\t‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,\tWho shook kingdoms, 17 \tWho made the world as a wilderness\tAnd destroyed its cities,\tWho did not open the house of his prisoners?’ 18 \t“All the kings of the nations,\tAll of them, sleep in glory,\tEveryone in his own house; 19 \tBut you are cast out of your grave\tLike an abominable branch,\tLike the garment of those who are slain,\tThrust through with a sword,\tWho go down to the stones of the pit,\tLike a corpse trodden underfoot. 20 \tYou will not be joined with them in burial,\tBecause you have destroyed your land\tAnd slain your people.\tThe brood of evildoers shall never be named. 21 \tPrepare slaughter for his children\tBecause of the iniquity of their fathers,\tLest they rise up and possess the land,\tAnd fill the face of the world with cities.” 22 \t“For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts,\t“And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant,\tAnd offspring and posterity,” says the LORD. 23 \t“I will also make it a possession for the porcupine,\tAnd marshes of muddy water;\tI will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” says the LORD of hosts. 24 \tThe LORD of hosts has sworn, saying,\t“Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass,\tAnd as I have purposed, so it shall stand: 25 \tThat I will break the Assyrian in My land,\tAnd on My mountains tread him underfoot.\tThen his yoke shall be removed from them,\tAnd his burden removed from their shoulders. 26 \tThis is the purpose that is purposed against the whole earth,\tAnd this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. 27 \tFor the LORD of hosts has purposed,\tAnd who will annul it?\tHis hand is stretched out,\tAnd who will turn it back?” In Isaiah 14 the Scripture identifies a seed of Satan. He is the king of Babylon, the son of Nebuchadnezzar, Belchazzar. Now if the seed of Satan existed in men at this time in history why not also the Seed?In ChristJeff

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmityBetween you and the woman,And between your seed and her Seed;He shall bruise your head,And you shall bruise His heel.”If you examined these words in a version which distinguishes between plural and singular ‘second persons’ you might see things a little differently. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Gen 3:15 KJV) This is a remarkable and mysterious verse. God is speaking to Satan. Although this is often called the first promise of the gospel, in strict terms it is a threat. 1. God declares unending enmity between Satan and Eve and bet2. God declares unending enmity between Satan’s seed and the woman’s seed. Your version obviously concluded that the woman’s seed is Christ. I think that is right.3. This single Seed – Christ will bruise Satan’s head4. Satan will bruise Christ’s heelThis threat, as it stands, is that Eve will be in enmity with Satan, presumably for the duration of her life. And the same enmity would exist between Christ and Satan. This enmity would be resolved in a future ‘bruising’ encounter; plainly the Cross. The reference is to two individuals ‘he’ and ‘thou’. We know that this precept was established the moment God declared it. We know that the seed of Satan existed in the Old Testament times. What are you thinking of when you say ‘we know that the seed of Satan existed in the Old Testament times’? In the KJV this passage refers to the king of Babylon as a seed of evildoers Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, thou hast slain thy people; the seed of evil-doers shall not be named for ever. (Isa 14:20 ASV) but as far as I can see there is no reference to a ‘seed of Satan’.

Br. Ron wrote:What are you thinking of when you say ‘we know that the seed of Satan existed in the Old Testament times’? In the KJV this passage refers to the king of Babylon as a seed of evildoers Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, thou hast slain thy people; the seed of evil-doers shall not be named for ever. (Isa 14:20 ASV) but as far as I can see there is no reference to a ‘seed of Satan’.I see this example given in Isaiah as an illustration of what becomes of a man who strives for the hopes that Satan creates in men. The nature of Lucifer's disobedience is manifested in the same way, and displayed in the same way by the king of Babylon. Another good example is:Dan. 11:36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38 But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain."The enmity exists between the seed of Satan and the Seed throughout the generations of man. In ChristJeff

I listened to a David Wilkerson's sermon titled, "Christ our Possesion. This speaks to the nature of God and Savior.https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=613In ChristJeff