A PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE?

Good morning everyone! There has been a lot of discussion receently on this forum about tongues. I have offered my 3 cents worth, stating that I do not believe tongues ceased with the apostles, however I also believe that most of the tongues we see in the church today are not legitimate.I would like to take this a step further with the following article about tongues as a "prayer language". I read this over the weekend and I found it to be quite sensible. I do not agree with the author's position that tongues are not for today... but I do find a lot in this article that I agree with.I would like to kick off a discussion about "prayer language" with this article... give it a read and let me know what you think.(This may be moved to the "doctrine" forum... wasnt sure if this would be ok in the "Lounge" or not...)KrispyA PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE?Fundamental Baptist Information ServicePentecostals and Charismatics often teach that there are two types of tongues described in the New Testament: the "public language tongues" of Pentecost and the "private prayer" tongues of 1 Corinthians 14:4 -- "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." Some call this distinction "ministry tongues" and "devotional tongues."Early Pentecostal leaders understood that biblical tongues were real earthly languages. They even thought they would be able to go to foreign mission fields and witness through miraculous tongues without having to learn the languages. Those who attempted this, though, returned bitterly disappointed!"Alfred G. Garr and his wife went to the Far East with the conviction that they could preach the gospel in 'the Indian and Chinese languages.' Lucy Farrow went to Africa and returned after seven months during which she was alleged to have preached to the natives in their own 'Kru language.' The German pastor and analyst Oskar Pfister reported the case of a Pentecostal... 'Simon,' who had planned to go to China using tongues for preaching. Numerous other Pentecostal missionaries went abroad believing they had the miraculous ability to speak in the languages of those to whom they were sent. These Pentecostal claims were well known at the time. S.C. Todd of the Bible Missionary Society investigated eighteen Pentecostals who went to Japan, China, and India 'expecting to preach to the natives in those countries in their own tongue,' and found that by their own admission 'in no single instance have [they] been able to do so.' As these and other missionaries returned in disappointment and failure, Pentecostals were compelled to rethink their original view of speaking in tongues" (Robert Mapes Anderson, Vision of the Disinherited: The Making of American Pentecostalism).The conclusion was soon reached that their "tongues" were not earthly languages but a "heavenly" or special prayer language; and those are the terms we have heard frequently at large Charismatic conferences, such as those in New Orleans in 1987, Indianapolis in 1990, and St. Louis in 2000. The tongues that I heard in these conferences were not languages of any sort, but merely repetitious mumblings that anyone could imitate. Larry Lea supposedly spoke in tongues in Indianapolis in 1990, and this is a key example of what is being passed off for tongues in the Charismatic movement. It went something like this: "Bubblyida bubblyida hallelujah bubblyida hallabubbly shallabubblyida kolabubblyida glooooory hallelujah bubblyida." I wrote that down as he was saying it and later checked it against the tape. Nancy Kellar, a Roman Catholic nun who was on the executive committee of the St. Louis meeting in 2000, spoke in "tongues" on Thursday evening of the conference. Her tongues went like this: "Shananaa leea, shananaa higha, shananaa nanaa, shananaa leeaŠ" repeated over and over and over.If you think I'm making fun of these people, you are wrong. This is taken directly from the audiotapes of the messages. If these are languages, they certainly have a simple vocabulary! My children had a more complex language than that when they were still toddlers.Michael Harper says: "In the short history of the Charismatic Renewal speaking in tongues has become rare in public, but continues to be a vital expression of prayer in private (These Wonderful Gifts, 1989, p. 97). He says this type of "tongues" is "a prayer language: a way of communicating more effectively with God" (p. 92). He claims that this experience "edifies" apart from the understanding: "Modern Western man finds it hard to believe that speaking unknown words to God can possibly be edifying. ... All one can say is 'try it and see'. I can still remember today the moments when I first used this gift, and the immediate awareness I had that I was being edified. This is one of the most important reasons why the gift needs to be used regularly in private prayer" (These Wonderful Gifts, p. 93). Harper says he is mystically aware of being edified even though he does not know what he is saying. He also says this "gift needs to be used regularly" and is therefore something important for the Christian life.To prove his point he simply invites the skeptical observer to "try it and see," reminding us that experience is the Charismatic's greatest authority. (The "come and see" approach creates a new problem, though, for the Bible never says to "try tongues" or to seek after tongues and never describes how one could learn how to speak in tongues. In the Bible, speaking in tongues is always a supernatural activity that is sovereignly given by God.)Even some that do not claim to be Pentecostals or Charismatics have this experience. Jerry Rankin, head of the International Mission Board (Southern Baptist), says he speaks in a "private prayer language" and contrasts this with the practice of "glossolalia.""I do have a private prayer language, have for more than 30 years. I don't consider myself to have a gift of tongues. I've never been led to practice glossolalia, you know, publicly, and I think the spiritual gifts clearly in the didactic passage of the Scriptures are talking about the public uses, edification and gifts in the church. ... I've never viewed personally my intimacy with the Lord and the way His Spirit guides me in my prayer time as being the same as glossolalia and subjected to that criteria. ... I just want God to have freedom to do everything that He wants to do in my life and I'm going to be obedient to that" ("IMB president speaks plainly with state editors about private prayer language," Baptist Press, Feb. 17, 2006).It is a wonderful thing to desire to do God's will wherever that leads, but He will never lead contrary to His own Word in the Scriptures. For the following reasons we are convinced that the Bible does not support the doctrine of a "private prayer language."FIRST, PAUL SAID THE TONGUES SPEAKER EDIFIES HIMSELF (1 Cor. 14:4)That would not be possible unless the words could be understood, because throughout the fourteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians Paul says that understanding is necessary for edification. In verse 3 he says that prophesying edifies because it comforts and exhorts men, obviously referring to things that are understood to the hearer. In verse 4 he says that tongues speaking does not edify unless it is interpreted. In verses 16-17 he says that if someone does not understand something he is not edified. Words could not be plainer. If there is no edification of the church without understanding, how is it that the individual believer could be edified without understanding? This is confusion. The word "edify" means to build up in the faith. Webster's 1828 dictionary defined it as "to instruct and improve the mind in knowledge generally, and particularly in moral and religious knowledge, in faith and holiness." The words "edify," "edification," "edified," and "edifying" are used in 18 verses in the New Testament and always refer to building up in the faith by means of instruction and godly living. For example, in Ephesians 4 the body of Christ is edified through the ministry of God-given preachers (Eph. 4:11-12).SECOND, IF THE TONGUES OF 1 CORINTHIANS 14 IS DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF ACTS 2, THE BIBLE NEVER EXPLAINS THE DIFFERENCEWe leave"tongues" in the book of Acts (the last mention is in Acts 19:6) and we do not see them again until 1 Corinthians 12-14. If the "tongues" in this epistle is a different type of thing than the "tongues" in Acts, why doesn't the Bible say so?THIRD, PAUL SAYS THAT TONGUES ARE AN EARTHLY LANGUAGE (1 Cor. 14:20-22)If tongues were some sort of "private prayer language," why would Paul give this prophetic explanation of it and state dogmatically that it is an earthly language? He does not say that some types of tongues are languages and others are not.FOURTH, IN 1 COR. 14:28 PAUL SAYS THE TONGUES SPEAKER SPEAKS BOTH TO HIMSELF AND TO GOD"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." This means that he can understand what he is speaking. Otherwise, how could he speak to himself? Does anyone speak to himself in "unknown gibberish"?FIFTH, IF THERE WERE A "PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE" THAT EDIFIED THE CHRISTIAN'S LIFE IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT AND THE BIBLE WOULD EXPLAIN IT CLEARLY AND CIRCUMSCRIBE ITS USAGE AS IT DOES THE USE OF TONGUES IN THE CHURCHFurther, a "private prayer language" that helped the Christian to be stronger in his walk with Christ would doubtless be mentioned in other places in the New Testament in the context of sanctification and Christian living. In fact, though, it is never mentioned in such a context. The apostles and prophets addressed many situations in the New Testament epistles and gave all things necessary for holy Christian living, but they never taught that the believer needs to speak in a "private prayer language" in order to have spiritual victory.SIXTH, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT TONGUES-SPEAKING COULD BE A NECESSARY PART OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE, BECAUSE PAUL PLAINLY STATES THAT NOT ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES (1 Cor. 14:29-20)Some will ask, "Why, then, does Paul say, 'I would that ye all spake with tongues'" (1 Cor. 14:5)? We answer that Paul was not saying that they all did speak with tongues or that they all could speak with tongues; he was merely expressing a desire that the exercise of spiritual gifts be done and that it be done right. Paul is looking upon tongues when it is interpreted as another form of prophesying and both were effective in edifying the church, and his burden was to see the church edified in every way. He said, "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." Note that the apostle exalted prophesying above tongues, but the Charismatic movement focuses on tongues more than prophesying.SEVENTH, ALL OF THE NEW TESTAMENT'S INSTRUCTION ABOUT PRAYER TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT PRAYER IS A CONSCIOUS, WILLFUL, UNDERSTANDABLE ACT ON THE PART OF THE BELIEVER AND THAT HE IS SPEAKING TO GOD IN UNDERSTANDABLE TERMSWe see this in Jesus' instructions about prayer. "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen" (Matt. 6:5-13). We also see this in Paul's instructions about prayer (i.e., Rom. 15:30-32; Eph. 6:18-20; Col. 4:2-3; Heb. 13:18-19). There is not one example of a prayer recorded in Scripture that is anything other than an individual speaking to God in understandable terms. In fact, Christ forbade the repetitious type of "prayers" that are commonly heard among those that practice a "private prayer language." "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" (Mat. 6:7). Yet I have oftentimes heard "prayer tongues" that sound like this: "Shalalama, balalama, shalalama, balalama, bubalama, shalalama, bugalala, shalalama...." Whatever that is, it is not New Testament "tongues" and it is not New Testament prayer.EIGHTH, EVEN IF WE WERE TO AGREE THAT 1 COR. 14 REFERS TO A "PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE," IT WOULD NOT BE SOMETHING THAT COULD BE LEARNED OR IMITATEDWhatever is described in 1 Corinthians 14 is a divine miracle, but this is contrary to the Pentecostal-Charismatic practice whereby people are taught to speak in a "prayer language." This brings us to our final point.NINTH, THE PRACTICE OF LEARNING HOW TO SPEAK IN TONGUES THAT IS POPULAR AMONG PENTECOSTALS AND CHARISMATICS IS UNSCRIPTURAL AND DANGEROUSIf we were to agree that there is such a thing as a "private prayer language" and that it would help us live a better Christian life and if we were to accept the Charismatic's challenge to "try it and see," the next question is, "How do I begin to speak in this 'prayer language'?" A chapter in the book These Wonderful Gifts (by Michael Harper) is entitled "Letting Go and Letting God," in which the believer is instructed to stop analyzing experiences so carefully and strictly, to stop "setting up alarm systems" and "squatting nervously behind protective walls." He says the believer should step out from behind his "walls and infallible systems" and just open up to God. That is a necessary but unscriptural and exceedingly dangerous step toward receiving the Charismatic experiences. Having stopped analyzing everything with Scripture, the standard method of experiencing the "gift of tongues" or a "privateprayer language" is to open one's mouth and to start speaking words but not words that one understands and allegedly "God will take control." Dennis Bennett says: "Open your mouth and show that you believe the Lord has baptized you in the Spirit by beginning to speak. Don't speak English, or any other language you know, for God can't guide you to speak in tongues if you are speaking in a language known to you. ... Just like a child learning to talk for the first time, open your mouth and speak out the first syllables and expressions that come to your lips. ... You may begin to speak, but only get out a few halting sounds. That's wonderful! You've broken the 'sound barrier'! Keep in with those sounds. Offer them to God. Tell Jesus you love Him in those 'joyful noises'! In a very real sense, any sound you make, offering your tongue to God in simple faith, may be the beginning of speaking in tongues" (The Holy Spirit and You, pp. 76, 77, 79).This is so grossly unscriptural and nonsensical it would not seem necessary to refute it. There is absolutely nothing like this in the New Testament. To ignore the Bible and to seek something that the Bible never says seek in ways the Bible does not support and to open oneself uncritically to religious experiences like this puts oneself in danger of receiving "another spirit" (2 Cor. 11:4).

Good point... any thoughts?Krispy

I emailed the author to ask for clarification of his position on 1Co 14:14-15.If I hear back from him I will post it.In the meantime, anyone have any thoughts pro or con?Krispy

I suspect that the author has never spoken in tongues, because he uses man's logic to suggest that one could only be edified if one could understand what one had spoken.Whereas, that's the whole point about tongues... it is a spiritual gift, and the user is edified by the Spirit, not by the understanding. One understands one has been edified because one experiences many aspects of edification.Further, if one could understand the tongue, then one would have the gift of interpretation, and we know that is not necessary for tongues either to be given or used.PP mentioned that the verses in 1 Cor 14 don't support Paul declaiming that those tongues would be an earthly language.... I agree. The unbeliever thinks the tongue-speaker is mad precisely because if there is no interpretation it appears to be a waste of time for anyone but the tongue-speaker. But, a prophecy (not in tongues) is immediately comprehensible to the outsider/uunbeliever and they are more likely to recognise what God is speaking to them personally.I have shared elsewhere about a friend who went to church for the first time, and heard God speaking to her in her own language, even though the tongue was NOT in her own language. I think this proves that the tongue-speaker also can understand something of what God is speaking to them through the exercise of the gift of tongues, even when it is not for the whole church through the help of one with the gift of interpretation.The author quotes Eph 4:11 + 12, and again, this is man's logic at work, because the important verses which correlate with 1 Cor 14 - BODY MINISTRY - are Eph 4:15 + 16, in which there is a most important phrase 'every part'.15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head -- Christ -- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Our Greek professor taught us from the Greek that the tongues received at Spirit Baptism is for "personal/private use for prayer and praise" and that "the gift of tongues in 1 Corth 12" is different than the prayer language, where the HOLY Spirit prays what we don't know "what to pray" and also "worships in spirit" for us and also as Paul said - that we can ask for "understanding" when we pray in the Spirit, and that The Spirit will let us know what this burden is, that is being expressed in 'tongues'.It's a beautiful blessing and good when you're really pressed in and don't know what to pray.From the language, it seems the one was/is a 'manifestation' of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the other is "the gift of tongues" found in 1Corth. 12:10. 1- Manifestation 2- Gift .Within these verses in 1Corth. 12, we see the "gift of faith" also ... but all believers have 'faith'. This (gift) is a Faith, above and beyond the faith given all believers ... so the tongues within the same verses of 1Corth12 are a tongues, 'above and beyond' the "manifestation" of tongues, that is given to every believer when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as a sign onto them, that they have indeed, received the Baptism (to avoid question, etc.) and to aid them as their own Prayer and Praise language.This is brought out in the Greek of these verses, besides in studying the events in the book of Acts.The numbers by each word below are Strong's Concordance numbering, in order to look up definitions, grammar, etc. of the Greek. If you can read between the numbers, you're doing good.Definitions of words below each verse.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~1 Corth. 12:4-10 ...1Co 12:4 Now1161 there are1526 diversities1243 of gifts,5486 but1161 the3588 same846 Spirit.4151 1Co 12:5 And2532 there are1526 differences1243 of administrations,1248 but2532 the3588 same846 Lord.2962 1Co 12:6 And2532 there are1526 diversities1243 of operations,1755 but1161 it is2076 the3588 same846 God2316 which worketh1754 all3956 in1722 all.3956 1Co 12:7 'BUT' 1161 the3588 "manifestation"5321 of the3588 Spirit4151 is given1325 to 'every man'1538 to4314 profit4851 . Other english versions - 1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the "showing forth" or "manifestaion": of the Spirit to "our profit." Some versions say "common good"."Manifestation" = G5321 φανερωσις phanerōsis fan-er'-o-sis From G5319; exhibition, that is, (figuratively) expression, (by extension) a bestowment: - manifestation. Used only in 1Co. 12:7 and 2 Co. 4:2.".... Is given to Every man to profit withal"Verse 7 above says in the Greek "THE manifestation." Singular ... not the manifestations. (the gifts)Now this... the Greek compared to the English ...1Co 12:8 For1063 to one3739, 3303 is given1325 by1223 the3588 Spirit4151 the word3056 of wisdom;4678 to(1161) another 243 the word3056 of knowledge1108 by2596 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151 Two different words for "another". So far we have #G243 above in red in verse 8. "Another" = #G243 άλλος allos al'-los A primary word; "else", that is, different (in many applications): - more, one (another), (an-, some an-) other (-s, -wise).But next in verse 9 we have #G2087 as "another"... and for good reason.1Co 12:9 To(1161) "another 2087" faith4102 by1722 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151 to(1161) another 243 (as above) the gifts5486 of healing2386 by1722 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151 1st "Another" in vs. 9 - #G2087 έτερος heteros het'-er-os Of uncertain affinity; (an-, the) other or different: - altered, else, next (day), one, (an-) other, some, strange. (Where we get our prefix hetero-sexual).All Saints have "faith", but this "Gift of Faith" is "different" then the faith that all Saints possess. That is why a different Greek word is used for "another" in this case.Further in this same verse {9} we have "another" again but it is back to #243, because not "all" are necessarily used in healings, as all do have "faith". Paul had to make sure these folks understood, that the (gift of) faith he was speaking of was totally different then the faith they already possessed. Remember: The Greek consisted of 24 types of the word "the", so it was the most accurate language in human history. Not one word was used haphazardly or for careless reasons.1Co 12:10 To(1161) another 243 the working1755 of miracles;1411 to(1161) another 243 prophecy;4394 to(1161) another 243 discerning1253 of spirits;4151 to(1161) another 2087 divers kinds1085 of tongues;1100 to(1161) another 243 the interpretation2058 of tongues:1100 Notice that #243 (allos) for "another" is used four times in verse 10, EXCEPT with the Gift of Tongues.Only "Faith" and "Tongues" are matched with "heteros" .... Why ?Why not use #243 for ALL the Gifts ?All do have faith, AND as seen in the book of Acts and in verse 7 above, the "manifestation" {exhibition or expression} of tongues, is given to all. Act 10:45,46 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost for G1063 they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. G1063 γάρ gar gar A primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles): - and, as, because (that), but, even, for indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet. Tongues, the "manifestation" of Spirit Baptism is "given to all", but the "Gift of tongues of 1Co12, 14" is not. Not all are used to give a message in Tongues {that requires an "interpretation"} in the Church ... but all are given the 'manifestation' (some call tongues, "the evidence of the Baptism") to "profit" .... the Modern KJV says "to our profit" and the NIV says "common good". But whatever profits one part (person) in the Body, profits all.The 'Manifestation' given upon Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is 'for personal use' for prayer and praise 1Co 14:13-15.This "different" #G2087 - "heteros tongues", is as different as "the gift of faith" is different from the faith we all have.Again, only the gifts of "faith and tongues" have the word "heteros" used with them... the rest just use "allos".In Chapter 14 Paul is trying to teach these people how to use the "manifestation of the Spirit". It was all new to them, so of course there was some messing up with this "new thing".They were getting out of control with their speaking/praying/praising in tongues. (As they still do :)Not all are used in the "gift of tongues" from the verses above, so it appears that they were just praying or praising in tongues {14:2 & 4 "speaketh to God" & "edifieth himself"} OUT LOUD and causing confusion. It was because they all had tongues, that the confusion was happening.Tongues - when it is "Interpreted" equals Prophecy, according to this chapter. Prophecy is not always prophesying the future , but also the giving of a direct word for the moment, directly from God at that moment.That is why Paul said, desire "prophecy" over showing off your tongues ... because your tongues doesn't profit anyone else, UNLESS you also Interpret ... 14:5 & 13-15 ... then it is worth something to others.Mar 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: {Acts 2:3,4}1 Corth. 13, The Love Chpt., was "sandwiched" between Chapters 12 and 14 (the gifts and their use chpt.s) for a very specific reason.1Co 13:1,2 If I speak with the languages of men or of angels (not just earthly languages), but don't have LOVE, I have become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have LOVE, I am nothing. ETC.ETC. LOVE...Sorry so messy, but I wanted to have the Strong's numbers up for anyone who wanted to check on this.God Bless.

dorcas wrote:I suspect that the author has never spoken in tongues, because he uses man's logic to suggest that one could only be edified if one could understand what one had spoken.Whereas, that's the whole point about tongues... it is a spiritual gift, and the user is edified by the Spirit, not by the understanding. One understands one has been edified because one experiences many aspects of edification.Further, if one could understand the tongue, then one would have the gift of interpretation, and we know that is not necessary for tongues either to be given or used.PP mentioned that the verses in 1 Cor 14 don't support Paul declaiming that those tongues would be an earthly language.... I agree. The unbeliever thinks the tongue-speaker is mad precisely because if there is no interpretation it appears to be a waste of time for anyone but the tongue-speaker. But, a prophecy (not in tongues) is immediately comprehensible to the outsider/uunbeliever and they are more likely to recognise what God is speaking to them personally.I have shared elsewhere about a friend who went to church for the first time, and heard God speaking to her in her own language, even though the tongue was NOT in her own language. I think this proves that the tongue-speaker also can understand something of what God is speaking to them through the exercise of the gift of tongues, even when it is not for the whole church through the help of one with the gift of interpretation.The author quotes Eph 4:11 + 12, and again, this is man's logic at work, because the important verses which correlate with 1 Cor 14 - BODY MINISTRY - are Eph 4:15 + 16, in which there is a most important phrase 'every part'.15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head -- Christ -- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. the post is good so I didn't want to subtract any paragraphs ... but the underlined paragraph spoke to my heart.In 1979 at Chapel at Bible College, the Lord gave me a song in a sort of Chinese sounding language in PRAISE.I just 'sang' and had such a joy that I'll never forget that event ... but never did I sing or speak in "that" language ever again.But in 2000 I was so busted up inside over so many things I could just about praise at all, in any way at all. We had gotten under a new pastor who would beat the sheep, verbally and the 'church' was so oppressive that my spirit was so grieved in physically hurt.Anyhow, one dear Sister there began to sing in that Chinese type language and it came 'at' me like God Himself saying "remember when ?" and my spirit was lifted and I was strenghtened in spirit.Afterwards I went to tell her how that had set me free to worship and healed my wounded spirit and she said ... "I never sang or spoke 'that' type language before and I doubted where it had come from or why." :-D Neat !!!

Dear Annie,You are indeed encouraging my soul today. Thank you. :-DSomething has occurred to me about what I wrote above:I think this proves that the tongue-speaker also can understand something of what God is speaking to them through the exercise of the gift of tongues,This is like the precious understanding brought to our attention by the Psalmist in ch 116:12 What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me? 13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.We think we're ministering to God through the Spirit (and we are) but the whole point of it that He should have another opportunity to bless us, if we will be open to receive from Him. This is the the love affair in action.

So if tongues is a prayer language (which it is interesting to note that "prayer language" is not mentioned in scripture)... why dont ALL Christian receive this? Billy Graham never has. Matthew Henry never did. John Wesley... Charles Finney... Krispy

dorcas wrote:Something has occurred to me about what I wrote above:

I think this proves that the tongue-speaker also can understand something of what God is speaking to them through the exercise of the gift of tongues,This is like the precious understanding brought to our attention by the Psalmist in ch 116:12 What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me? 13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.We think we're ministering to God through the Spirit (and we are) but the whole point of it that He should have another opportunity to bless us, if we will be open to receive from Him. This is the the love affair in action.

But in the end she wounldnt repent after all that... Brother, I know I'm only a sister, and you may believe I'm unqualified to comment, but I think you have your wires crossed here. Many people are demon possessed because of what has been done to them; not because what they have done. She was telling you that someone was hurting her.... That was your clue. As long as she remained unhealed from whatever ordeals she had been through, there was a wounded place in which the demon(s) could reside. In this condition, of course people turn to drink or drugs, and previous abuse is the commonest reason for any girl to go into prostitution and related activities. Casting out a demon has got to be coupled with healing, whether it is pronounced over the person or not.... you, the pray-er, has to understand this is a legitimate aspect of deliverance/salvation/healing. Repentance will come, when there is an understanding of sin, but many people who have been hurt, have no way of knowing what sin is their own personal responsibility, because they were overpowered by the circumstances in which they were originally hurt.It is easy to look at the adult and assume they've been making a deliberate choice to SIN, but even if they have, it may have been very comforting to them, when a worse pain was being blotted out. However, as healing proceeds, new guilt for real misdemeanours is God's gift, which enables a person to offer genuine repentace to God. One last thought is, that people who've been overpowered in abusive situations, especially if they were children at the time, are used to things happening to them. To ask them to take turn that around completely, (in the same night as being delivered from one or more demons) and to take responsibility for an important action like repentance, with the kind of mental clarity which is required, is too much. Probably what she needed was to be wrapped up and taken somewhere safe, to be looked after for at least the night, and given time to ask questions about what had happened. And reassured of God's love, and treated with the respect she deserved for having come that far with God in one evening. Sometimes a human being can only stand 'so much' in one session, and faith on your part is required to trust that it will not all disappear because (you know) the job is only partly done. The Spirit needs time to minister to the understanding of the person, too. If they have been controlled by other people in the past, the last thing they need now, is the suspicion that they are getting into another situation where they have, again, no power over their own destiny.This alone, is one reason, that many people with a history of abuse, find it hard to come to God. The idea of abandoning themselves to Him is [font=Verdana]TERRIFYING[/font].Now, I realise I've implied you were insensitive to Debbie's needs. I guess you were as sensitive and gentle as you knew how to be. What I've said is a slant on my own personal, very long, deliverance journey with the Lord. I have repented many times meaninglessly. And until I began to receive healing, it continued to be impossible for me to make it stick. I have no idea how many demons left me on the way as I pursued righteousness, but, I'd say it was in 10s rather than 1s. I have prayed for myself to be delivered many times, but I can remember only once, having a demon cast out. I don't remember that being a bad experience and it certainly changed me, but I was far from clear about what had happened or what I needed, at the time.

Why can't every Christian tell of an instance of laying their hands on the sick and them recovering? Why can't they tell of a story of casting out a devil?Preach, I think you misunderstood my question. I know from scripture that not everyone will recieve the gift of tongues. Thats plain. When people talk about how tongues edifies a believer in their prayer life as a prayer language, then the question must be asked: if this is the case, why then does God chose only to bestow upon certain believers a gift that edifies themselves.Here's what I think Paul was saying when he spoke of someone speaking in tongues as edifying himself... I dont think he was saying that God uses that in order to strengthen a believer... I think he was saying a believer builds himself up as in builds himself up in his own eyes, and in the eyes of those around him.It's interesting to note that scripture over and over declares that the Lord is my strength, in Him do I find strength... I can do all things thru God who strengthens me... etc.Yet Paul says in 1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. Just a thought to ponder... I know I'll not please everyone with that thought of mine, but hey... ponder it for a minute, thats all I ask.Krispy

Good Morning Steve.It is true there is no such phrase in the bible as tongues being a Private Prayer Lanuage. However, the usage is just that it's private between you and God.The Charismatic movement has not helped in this area at all. They have reeked havoc on the teachings of the Church. Instead of building on a biblical foundation, they have taken foundational teachings and have stretched them to the extreme, and have created "new" teachings based upon "experince". For example, they have taken "Joy" and have created a "laughing" ministry out of it. The term "Private Prayer Language" no doubt has come from such Charismatic leaders like Kenneth E Hagin or Copeland. I do not have the gift of tongues, but I do speak in tongues in my prayer and worship, and I am edified. When I am gathered together with those who are like minded, we speak in tongues together, it has nothing to do with interpretation. Now if someone who has no idea what were all about comes thru the door, we tend to stop and go back to english praise and worship. Sometimes someone will just jump up and speak in tongues and usually there is interpreter. At times there is a wait because the person whom God is moving on is struggling with themselves. Generally there might be a few people that know the message but they don't feel the prompting to give it. As for this Baptist fellow, what he doesn't understand he should leave alone and continue on preaching the gospel.Than again, the Gospel IS Jesus Christ coming as the Holy Spirit in the believers life, and when they receive Him, they will speak in tongues, as the scriptures have mentioned so many times in the book of Acts.1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.I don't understand those who say that tongues have ceased. If that is true, than Prophecy has ceased as well, and if prophecy has ceased why are we looking for end time prophecies to come to pass if it's all ceased and done away with? hmmmmmmmmmmHas knowledge ceased? If it has, than what is the sense in learning?Come on people, don't just take out what you want because you don't understand it. People that don't believe in this or that will write books that is wide as the Chrysler Building trying to prove that these things are not for us today. But Jesus said to that same unbelieving bunch He dealt with than, saying in: Luke 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.Karl

ANewInHim, Thank you for "The Source of Abundant Joy".Much appreciated and much comfort.Lord Bless.

First, brentw, thank you for your gracious reply. I felt I said too much in that post, although I did so because I spent 20 years seeking answers through 'responding to God' in ordinary Sunday opportunities and conferences. I'm sure He was doing what He could with me, but, it was not until I realised the small place healing had been given in the preaching, and how basically we were always being told that if we had a problem, it was our responsibility and it was sin, that I came to feel so hopeless about any more repentance. As far as I was concerned, God had had ample opportunity to bless me because I'd repented honestly, and I felt He had done all He could... therefore, the answer had to lie somewhere else...... not in my continuing repentance.But, there WAS a need for more repentance. However, it was always very specific and entirely connected to my reactions to the effects of abuse, or, to my attempts to find an answer to the continual malaise I was experiencing. Only God could do the necessary healing.... which opened up the clarity between 'who' had committed 'which' sin.... that enabled repentance to become meaningful and productive. This process went on for years.... (just in case anyone is thinking it should have been over in a few weeks).

Hi Krispy,I think he was saying a believer builds himself up as in builds himself up in his own eyes, and in the eyes of those around him.This is not what the word 'edifies' means. There is absolutely nothing selfish about edification. That's why it's an excellent word for Paul to have chosen. It is about someone else doing the work which makes the building grow. The building itself does nothing. The building itself has no say in how it is constructed, and it only 'works' as a building, if it is sound - otherwise, you would say it was not an 'edifice' but a wreck or a ruin or a danger.Healingwaters saidHowever, the usage is just that it's private between you and God.Exactly.Krispy,This is a serious question to you.... Did you make any sense at all of my testimony about the way tongues 'edifies' the person using them, even without interpretation, or was that a completely incomprehensible post (to you)?

I was at an old fashioned campmeeting few years back and one of the brothers tried to greet me with a 'holy kiss'...well, I tried to avoid it by turning my head but it didnt work and his lips hit mine I was shocked because know one ever even tried that before with me nor have I seen it happen... BUT I was very thankful because this denomination didnt believe in the doctine of 'tounges'. Brent... I got a good laugh out of that. Are you sure it wasnt one of those "Metropolitan" churches??Krispy

Preach... I believe God can use any believer He wishes to lay hands on the sick and heal them. But does He always heal that way? No. I've laid hands on people and they died from their illness. I've laid hands on people and they seemed to recover (nothing miraculous, but they did recover).The obvious answer Paul was looking for to the questions he asked in 1 Cor 12:30 was no. Not all have the gift of hearling, not all have tongues.But when one says "praying in tongues strengthens me", then why are the majority of believers without this? Only certain believers are allowed access to this?And these are honest questions. For once I'm not trying to build a case for or against. These are real questions I have... and opinions on either side have not satisfied my curiosity.Krispy

I believe in two tongues ... as in the manifestation of Spirit Baptism and the other "the gift of tongues" because the Greek bears it out and also from personal experience.Once upon a time, about 30 years ago, the AoG was very acedemic and of course we all know, they are Full Gospel. And that is fortunately when I got saved ... back before the general fall of them.There are still some AoG Pastors out there from the old school, but as a Denomination ... well, I guess that's what finally disuaded me 'from' Denominations.Sort of a sad parting there ... many extremely good memories of days gone by. But, all things DO work for good and I'm glad to be out of Denominational strong holds and venture to the Churches/Fellowships of all my other brothers and sisters in Christ.

I think I've said this else where in another thread, but it bears repeating. According to some, they experienced 'ecstatic utterance' in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit, but did not speak in tongues again. I had heard tongues and interpretations for a long time before I first spoke in tongues... and that was two days after being prayed for privately, by the speaker at a conference. He was not praying for me to receive the gift of tongues, but to be delivered from something else. You might not believe this, but I don't know what he was praying for. He didn't tell me, but that's a different discussion.For you freedbyjc, this is what it felt like. I was on the bus going to work for a late shift, a journey of at least half an hour at lunchtime. Since I'd been prayed for, I'd been singing the same two verses of a hymn, endlessly..... Love of Christ so freely given, grace of God beyond degree, mercy higher than the highest heaven, deeper than the deepest sea.All that thrills my soul is Jesus. He is more than life to me. And the fairest of ten thousand, in my blessed Lord I see. What a wonderful redemption, never can a mortal know, how my sin though red like crimson, can be whiter than the snow. All that thrills my soul is Jesus. He is more than life to me. And the fairest of ten thousand, in my blessed Lord I see.... round and round and round and round. But, from the depths of my being, these words were trying to break out through my mouth. I knew it was tongues because the urge was so strong and it wasn't the way I felt before I used normal words - but what was I supposed to do with this urge in the present distress - on a bus? I think I put a hand up over my mouth and tried to make sure I didn't shout them, but spoke as quietly as possible. There was NO keeping them in..... and that's how it started. But, it wasn't and isn't always like that. I can pray in tongues whenever I want/need to, since then, till now.I'd be very surprised if anyone who is in a church meeting when the Lord gives them a tongue (which will require interpretation), does not also have the ability to pray in tongues when they are alone. I have never had to give a tongue in church, but to be honest, until this thread, it never occurred to me that I might not be ABLE to ---- as if the gift I've received is somehow different from the other. (I should say that over the years, the 'tongue' has changed, sometimes being quite different in character from the one I had used till then. This is nothing to do with me or my mind. The Spirit brings it out like that.)Personally, I think this is the same 'gift of tongues', used in two different ways, according to the prompting of the Spirit. Many people don't have an opportunity to give a prophecy in tongues 'at church' because there is no time given to that (and other) gifts (such as interpretation), during the main Sunday gathering.... Often the excuse given is that it would upset the people that don't have such gifts..... or is it that the church leadership have no idea how to look after the proceedings when such evidences of the life of God are manifest in the 'members'? Maybe they don't have gifts themselves? (Very embarrassing, if they are seen as some sort of spiritual status symbol.).... It is a truly remarkable gift, and when I was in dire straights over many months, some years ago, I would put my head in my hands and pray in tongues for ten minutes, to be completely restored from a woman with no strength at all, to one who was able to carry on and finish the day's responsibilities. (I have long believed that prayer can do this, and experienced such refreshings from 'normal' prayer, but in those days I was in extremis, and tongues seemed to reach higher and deeper into God.)I hope this answers some of your questions?EDIT: I checked the words of the hymn I'd posted from memory, and have changed 'heart' to 'soul', and 'all' to 'life, in correction.

I loved your testimony Dorcas, truly.The Spirit of God interceding through us, when we don't know how to pray as we ought, is totally a God Send.Paul said, I pray in the spirit and I pray with understanding.There have been times when the Lord would do that during prayer time, so that I would have understanding of what was going on with the heavy burden I was feeling in praying for someone or something.The 'understanding' opens my eyes to things I was not aware of about the person or thing that I was burdened in prayer for.I only can disagree with you in that these are two seperate tongues ... as shown in the Greek I posted earlier in this thread.The only reason I would stress that is because Paul asked, 'Do all speak in tongues ?'That is the verse that is used by those who do not have the Manifestation of the Spirit Baptism to rule out seeking the Prayer Language for themselves .... to their own loss.Not loss salvation as falsely taught by some ... but loss of deeper, more Inspired prayer and praise openings. Where the Spirit Himself can speak for us, the things that are hid from us presently and worship in a way that no human can with their own words. Definitely "not of us" and "all of Him", that way.God Bless !!!

Hi Annie,I'm glad you have the Greek at your disposal. And I know you think you've made yourself completely clear, but, I would like to check out that I've completely understood you, because you said you disagreed with me - and I'm not sure what you disagree about.... which may be because I left out something I could have said.I only can disagree with you in that these are two seperate tongues ... as shown in the Greek I posted earlier in this thread.The only reason I would stress that is because Paul asked, 'Do all speak in tongues ?'So let me clarify. I agree that not all speak in tongues. And I accept that some people only speak in tongues when they receive the baptism in the Spirit and never again.I was suggesting that those of us who pray in tongues, or who give a loud tongue in church, which needs interpretation, actually have the same gift. Is this what you disagree with?Do you feel that people who give a loud tongue in church which needs interpretation, do not or cannot pray in tongues? And do you believe that those who have never given a tongue which required interpretation in church, who only ever have prayed in tongues (to date), could never be called upon to give a tongue for interpretation, because they don't have 'the gift of tongues' as you understand it?Sorry that's a lot of questions but, it seems the easiest way to clarify my confusion. Thanks.

Actually, where we disagree with each other on this, is answered in my post on page one, with the greek in it.That post would have to be looked at first, to understand where my view is coming from.All should have the prayer language, but they need not be 'used' in the 'gift' that needs Interpretation to go with. That is for God to give or use folks in "as He wills".That is why I posted the word-studies on it, so as to not just give opinion.

OK. I had read the post on p1 a while ago, and it seems to be saying that everyone who has received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, should have a private prayer language. Yet, Paul said 'Do all speak in tongues?'. I hate to be difficult, but, he is obviously saying that not all have the private prayer language, as much as the gift that needs interpretation....Am I getting this right?

Yes, you are being difficult :-P . Haaa.Paul said ... 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? If you read page one, you'd see the part where the "Manifestation is given to every man" but not all are used in all of the "gifts" and how the gifts of "faith and tongues" differ from the "faith and tongues" given to all. I hate to be difficult also, but Paul is NOT "obviously saying that not all have the private prayer language, as much as the gift that needs interpretation" ;-) NO, the private prayer/praise language is called the "manifestation of the spirit" but that which needs Interpretation is The Gift of Tongues. Like "the Gift of Faith or Healing" etc. Again, there are two different tongues.1 is the private prayer/praise manifestation of the Spirit tongues and 2 is the "gift of tongues" which is comparable to "the gift of faith" as it differs than the faith had by "all".Maybe if you read page one again or slower.I realise that it's slopily done, and if you feel I should re-do it neater, I will make time for that.Love to you.Annie again

Someone asked if I believe new birth and baptism in the Spirit are always separate, and if some people are born again, but not baptised in the Spirit, and therefore they can't speak in tongues ?One may - as in the book of Acts get saved and Baptised in the Holy Spirit at the same time, and even before water baptism as seen in Acts 10.The Indwelling of the spirit and The Baptism of The Holy Spirit. Two separate events. John the Baptist said ... Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but He shall 'baptize you with the Holy Ghost.' {See, Acts 1:5 below}~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39-But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"After Jesus' Resurrection, but before the Lord's Ascension" ...John 20:19-22 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost . (Note: The disciples and all believers have the Holy Spirit resident in them. Upon becoming a Believer, the Holy Spirit is in them. But yet, they were commanded to wait in Jerusalem for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Next verse.This can be compared to a glass with water in it and a glass with water pouring out and over. As what Jesus meant above in the John 7 verses)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Luke 24:49-51 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with Power from on high. And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. (Luke goes on to write the Book of Acts)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Acts 1:3-5 To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of Me, 5 For John truly baptized with water; {Mark 1:8 above} but ye shall be 'baptized with the Holy Ghost' not many days hence. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place and suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Acts 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Because they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (Note: These received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, even before they were water baptized.They're belief in Paul's preaching, in the previous verses of this same Chpt., was so convincing to them, that they believed strongly and went straight to the Pentecost experience with their believing.We can't put God in a box, and say God wouldn't do this.)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Acts 19:1-6 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? (Note: These were Disciples, born-again-believers and all believers have the Holy Ghost, but he meant the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.)And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized (in water) in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Immediately after Pentecost, the disciples went outside and began to witness and 3000 were saved that day. Then, they knew, felt and saw the difference and why Jesus had asked them to "wait" for this Baptism.The following verses show "when" the disciples received the Comforter/Spirit of Truth. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will 'send' him unto you. (he gave them the Holy Spirit BEFORE He ascended,'Breathed on them, while He was still present with them', in John 20:22 above, but when He "went away", He sent Pentecost.)John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. John 14:15-26 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. {Pentecost}Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father 'will' send in my name, he shall teach you All things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into All truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.Mark 16:17 & 18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. We can see through all of these verses, that the "Comforter" and "Spirit of Truth" - (Jn. 14:17, 15:26 & 16:13) that Jesus had promised that He and the Father would send them, came at Pentecost and not when they first became believers or when he breathed on them, before He ascended."Seek and ye shall find." "The Promise of the Father." Luke 11:9-13.

Hi Annie,Thank you for the foregoing exposition, in which I have understood more than I understood before.I can see how you would separate new birth and Pentecost for believers subsequent to the disciples, but I don't see how you can say they were born again when the risen Jesus breathed on them.They obviously had believed on Him for a long time, but that had not caused them to be 'born of the Spirit' - John 3: 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.." - as you suggest we would do now (since Pentecost).I can accept that baptism in the Spirit is separate for some people, from new birth, but, not for the reason you give from John 20. There is massive scriptural evidence that the kind of belief which made Peter say 'You have the words of eternal life' (John 6:68), did not prevent him from denying the Lord, and all the disciples thought the women were making up that His body had gone from the tomb ... that is, until they saw it for themselves. Yet they were filled with fear. Jesus had to say 'Peace' to them. So, even believing in the resurrection, and receiving the power to forgive sins (John 20:23) - in the same way as they had previously received power to cast out devils and heal the sick, did not make them 'born of the Spirit'.After Pentecost, a different spiritual dynamic was available. Even Cornelius* to whom the Lord Himself may have appeared, or an angel, to tell him to call for Peter, with all his* faith in God, had not been born again of the Spirit - until he was also baptised in the Spirit.But let me say clearly, I do know people who show forth the fruit of the Spirit in their lives, who are obviously born again, but who do not (appear to) have any gifts of the Spirit, as bestowed by a baptism in the Spirit.

:-? What ?No, only kidding, please don't say it again. ha.I'm sorry ... Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Did the thief on the cross die and see the kingdom ?When has the Holy Spirit ever "resided" in a human unless they 'are' converted or saved or born-again.Do you have "born-again" as something beyond Salvation ?When Jesus breathed on them before His Ascension and said "receive ye the Holy Spirit" ... is that not New Birth to you ? In that, that seems to be when we all experienced our new birth, was upon the conversion process that led to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ... though it was not The Baptism, we nonetheless were 'Saved' or born-again.This is a new teaching to me that you've posted ... and I find this interesting ... yet very strange that you do not have these disciples "born again" before Pentecost ? Well, I'm not quite sure where you've gotten this teaching but I'll let the dust settle in my mind before I delve into discussing "when" is a person actually "born of the Spirit". I will have to tell you right off though, that this is strange and that I could not endorse nor come aside this ... but possibly could you tell me if you've come to this belief on your own or through a Pastor ?MUCH LOVE to you my dear sister. Hope you don't mind that I'm disagreeing here with you. :-o Annie

Sister Dorcas has much to share and much to offer the Body, in many many ways ... and this I say from personally experiencing her since last year, but I would say MenFisher, that you answered this with your own words. "In my experience" .... NOT 'Thus said The Lord", from His Word.That is the problem with the Body and why the POWER from God slowly dwindles and is blatantly being replaced with counterfeit experiences and doctrines.Hermeneutics is thrown out. Word Studies in the original languages have been thrown out.Does that necessarily disqualify the person from being 'used' ... no, His gifts are without repentance, but does that mean that a door has been open to further error, Yes.The error here is to make the "manifestation" of Spirit Baptism the same as the "gift of tongues" found in 1 Corth 12, that is NOT given to all or not all are used in that gift, by GOD's choosing, not our own.That is why, many use the verse "about the gift of tongues" to quote "Do all speak in tongues ....?" and not even to finish that verse.Why am I stressing on this ? Because the prayer language will get us through and receiving the fullness of the Spirit and what He's sent His Body is being tossed aside by making these two manifestations one and the same.I've been used in all but 2 of the nine gifts in 1 Corth 12 ... but that does not mean that they are "resident" gifts, that I can call up whenever I choose.God may never use me in any but 1 from time to time, if that's His Choice.All received "tongues" in the book of ACTS, but not all were called to or used in the "gift" of tongues in the Church.I'm not hair-splitting here ... but because some have made them one and the same "tongues" ... THAT is why many do not seek the prayer/praise language and are forfeiting the benefits of that manifestation."Do all speak in tongues...." quoted in part and out of context of the whole of that chapter is partly responsible for what is part of cessationism.I believe every experience Dorcas has had ... but to say there is but one "tongues" is to not care what the Lord went through the trouble to have Paul pin point in the Greek with his two choices for the word "another" seen on page one.If we say the Greek on page one does not matter to us, and only our "experiences" form our doctrine, then, error is on the coat tails of such a stance.I find much of what is written in general anymore is from "personal experience or opinion" on most every Forum I visit or look at.Very few Expositors left. We must have both "Spirit AND Truth".I leave this to be critiqued by whomever.ALL His Best to All.Annie

Yes, you are being difficult :-P . Haaa.Well, I'm not trying to be, even if I'm being trying.... :-P Haaa! :-DAnnie,You know what I think here? I think the word 'manifestation' has entered your doctrinal language by the back door. To manifest, is to show. It is not an entity with a life of its own.It doesn't even appear in Acts 2 by name. With reference to the tongues.... they show themselves by their presence. Likewise in Ephesians 5, we have Paul saying 'that which makes manifest, is light'. (v13) By all means check up in the Greek.Next thing I've noticed, is that Romans 12 doesn't mention tongues, even though the spirit if the message is very similar to 1 Cor 12.... there is the idea of the Body and of the effect of the spirit (charismata - graces) on the believer.This conveys to me that when the word 'manifestation' is used in 1 Cor 12, is simply means a showing of the Spirit's presence.... and it can mean through any gift AT ALL..... not just tongues.Probably I've said enough for this post. Looking forward to your response.... really; I am. ;-)

Dear Annie,We've posted at the same time nearly and I didn't see yours till I'd posted mine.At this precise moment, that's all I want to say. This IS a very intersting discussion and I know I still need to respond to your questions in an earlier post. For now though, I'm going back to p1 to re-read your exposition there, and, I'm going to get a very big cup of tea, first.Love to you.

I'll just try to break it down easier, because the Greek post on page one looks Jumbled, because of my choice to use the Numbered to the Strong's version.The front door entrance of the word "manifestation" is found in ....1Co 12:7 'BUT' 1161 the "manifestation"5321 of the Spirit is given to 'every man'1538 to profit. Other english versions - 1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the "showing forth" or "manifestation": of the Spirit to "our profit." Some versions say "common good"."Manifestation" = G5321 φανερωσις phanerōsis fan-er'-o-sis From G5319; exhibition, that is, (figuratively) expression, (by extension) a bestowment: - manifestation. Used only in 1Co. 12:7 and 2 Co. 4:2.".... Is given to Every man to profit withal"Verse 7 above says in the Greek "THE manifestation." Singular ... not the manifestations. (the gifts)Then on this previous page, page 4, we went through ACTS {rightly called Acts} and saw first hand that this "manifestation" WAS indeed "given to all" and that is how the onlookers knew that those in Chpt 10 "received the Holy Spirit" BECAUSE {gar-Greek} "they spoke with tongues" ... so that was the Manifestation being manifested in the book of Acts.You mentioned the 7 gifts of Romans 12 ... they are called the motivational gifts and they are prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhorting, sharing or giving, and leading or administrating.They are not the manifestational gifts of 1 Corth 12.Nor are they the resident or Ministerial gifts of Ephesians 4 and 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? Here again, comparing all of these gifts to the what transpired in the Book of Acts, where all Baptized by Fire or the Holy Ghost, DID have the "manifestation" of tongues, which confirmed to the onlookers that these had been Baptized.You said ""This conveys to me that when the word 'manifestation' is used in 1 Cor 12, is simply means a showing of the Spirit's presence.... and it can mean through any gift AT ALL..... not just tongues.""The first part is correct according to the language there ... the tongues WAS to "show the Spirit's Presence" but the latter part is not according to the Two uses of the word "another" found in those verses in 1 Corth 12."Allos" was used for "another" with 7 of the gifts and "Heteros" was used for "another", Only with Faith and Tongues.So in 1 Corth 12 we have first the manifestational gifts that God uses people in "as HE wills" {so they are not resident}... then we have the Ministerial gifts that 'are' resident and the Motivational gifts are a resident burden of the person, found in Romans 12. Again, the only reason I'm posting so often here on this, is that by making the manifestation of the Spirit that is "given to all" ... the Same as the 'Gift' of Tongues that requires Interpretation in the congregation, we are giving the people the excuse for not seeking out the manifestation that is our prayer/praise language ... that is 'why' it is "given to all".One is said to be "given to all" and the other (the gift of ..) is Not.I don't know if you're back yet ... but I'll push the submit button and see what we've got so far.This is to "profit all" if you catch my drift.Love.Annie

Hello again, Annie,I'm thinking hard.It seems to me there is a discrepancy in your 'doctrine' on the point of tongues if you say not everyone will speak in tongues, (1 Cor 12:30) but, everyone who is baptised in the Spirit will have the 'manifestion' of tongues.The more I look at what Paul has said, (in the Greek) the more I'm getting a feel for the way he's changed the words he's used to say basically the same thing, in 1 Cor 12 and Romans 12.He's talking to people who have all been baptised in the Spirit. According to you, they should all have a private worship/prayer language in tongues. Yet Paul's rhetorical question strongly implies some people did not, despite their baptism in the Spirit.The last phrase of 1 Cor 12:28 is 'various kinds of tongues'. This still doesn't tell me that everyone baptised in the Spirit received tongues.On reading the whole of 1 Cor 12 just now, it seems to me that Paul is saying the OPERATION of the Spirit in the believer, can be discerned as 'a gift' of ability - an enabling - to do something identifiable by its consistent manifestation in the same form. He is attributing the 'power' to do whatever - heal, discern, teach - to the Spirit - the effect of the Spirit - which he also calls the gracing of the Spirit on a person(ality) (charismata pl).The NASB translates 1 Cor 12:30 'All do not speak with tongues'.It seems to me it is more difficult to insist that baptism in the Spirit is always accompanied by some form of tongue-speaking, than it is to accept that the baptism in the Spirit confers power on a life, which will show itself through a particular grace of the Spirit - of which tongues may be one.This does not preclude a believer who has not received tongues, from seeking tongues. As James says, if anyone lacks, let him ask. The Lord also spoke of investing what we have, that we may gain more. I'm sure I have more gifts now than when I was first baptised in the Spirit.... (but I've only recently begun to see that it's ok to ask for more. Joshua's way ahead of me there....)I shall continue to read round this, and also, tomorrow, I'll answer your other questions.Thank you for your patience.... I need the time.EDIT: In other words, the 'manifestation' of the Spirit is ANY gift.

I posted above yours there.Hasta Manana on this one. Back to having eyes like cotton balls. :-( Love you !

Hasta Manana ? :-? Interpretation please?Actually, I can answer at least one of your earlier questions, quite easily.... It was to do with whether it was possible to be born again before Pentecost. Yes, I've been taught that it was not. But, as a midwife, I thought a great deal about the picture language in the concept of 'new birth', compared with real birth in the natural. It has to be said, then, that although the Holy Spirit came over the OT prophets right up to John the Baptist, and 'filled' them for the purpose that the filling was given - usually prophecy, but sometimes visions, dreams, interpretations, healing, resurrection from the dead - the focus ahead to Christ, suggests that His work was (going to be) phenomenal - the establishment of a New Covenant.Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, (NASB)This is very similar to birth. I can see in my spirit what I want to say, but I'm not sure it will sound brilliant on the page.... As a baby is being born, out of the flesh, it is entering into the Spirit; only then, can the Spirit enter into it and that's what makes the difference. If it starts to breathe, it is considered 'alive'. In the Spirit, this would be 'new birth'.A baby who is born physically, but does not breathe, is not considered ever to have been alive. Harsh but true. Even if all the signs of life were present in the womb.So, what I'm trying to say is, the 'thought' that 'new birth' was not possible till Pentecost, has HUGE resonance with natural birth. There is also the 'out of darkness into His marvellous light' aspect of new birth which cannot be ignored for its exactness with the natural.I'm not going to elaborate more on that picture, but there is one other point regarding what a person receives at the moment they believe. (Of course there are exceptions, but) I believe strongly that if you don't tell a person about the baptism in the Spirit, they are not seeking God for it. If you don't tell them about new birth, they are not seeking God for it. Even though these two may be inextricably linked, a person will receive what they can from the WORD which was/is preached to them. It's not that their faith is lacking, necessarily, if they don't receive the whole nine yards. It may be that no-one mentioned the 8th and 9th yard, so they only looked to God for the first 7. I'm not meaning to be facetious AT ALL, but, when I think of how much time can be given to expounding just one point, during a sermon, it's not surprising if basic truths are obscured to the hearer.Possibly there is more which could be said on all these angles, but that's all that's coming to me right now. God bless your night, dear sister.

somar, that is a wonderful testimony you have. Praise God.I'm glad you came back to share it. It truly blessed me. I'm also glad that you are one more proof that the "laying on of hands" is not necessary to receive the Baptism. That one can be alone in their room and the Lord is more than anxious to give out His fullness of His Spirit to those who simply ask.Your testimony is a blessing and that you also had wonderful foster parents. God has smiled on you indeed. :-) I was saved/born-again for three years before I asked for and received the Baptism with the evidence of tongues. But I only got one word in another language that night, but like you, gradually over the days, I let the Lord take my fear away and enjoyed what He is able to do with setting us free to pray and worship in spirit.I had been taught that it wasn't necessary for today and also others had put a fear in me that I could get a "false tongue", so I feared for those three years after I got saved, and didn't seek at all.But then I finally went to a good Church and the Lord gave me Luke 11:11-13 and even though I was still somewhat afraid that I wouldn't get the "real McCoy", I asked the Elder to pray with me.For the three years before I received the Baptism, the Lord would still give me discernment and dreams and things like that, but nothing compared to what happened after the Baptism and the prayer language. Things were able to really take off from there.I pray for all His children to have this prayer language. To seek the Baptism, to be given the power from on High to be better witnesses and to be open to the gifts ... so we can go back to the acts of the first church and be powerful and mighty in the land.I know, that the day after the Baptism, I devoured the Word with more force than ever and couldn't get enough of it and it also had more power. Also my boldness increased and also JOY.God knew I needed joy.But since I was early saved, I read the book of Acts with complete confidence that those acts were just part of the normal Christian Life. Maybe that is why things began right away, even before the Baptism.I have a burden that this is what we need to make it through the days ahead and to see any sort of personal revival in our own lives.To me, walking in Pentecost, is a daily experience and reality. Not something "more".The gifts are operating as "He wills" and His Voice is clear. What more can I ask of Him, but that He just fulfill His Word in me and protect me from all of the deceptions out there.He knows our hearts and won't withhold any good thing from us. He wants us to be as He was in this world and doing the same works that He did, plus more He said.Why do we limit Him so brother ? Do you think as I do, it is because the devil hates this teaching and of course he wouldn't want us having the dunamis {miraculous} power, so he twisted this teaching more than most ?Well, again I thank you somar for sharing this.Lord Bless you !

Seester Dorcas, No habla Espanol ?Seester, I know for certain that I was very much Born-Again three years prior to the baptizō. Si !Has nothing to do with my profession back then - just one day I was dead in my trespasses and the next, I was alive unto Christ and totally transformed. HE metamorphosed me.Hasta Mañana hermana means, see you tomorrow Seester. Te amo mucho, translates to I Love you lots. :-)

Somar, I'm finally finding the ability to come back to this after a distraction.Jessie Penn-Lewis may have gone over the top in saying that Christians can be possessed, but those who reprinted her book with some editing did well with, "War on the Saints" and it is a MUST READ - MUST READ book for these end times.Whenever GOD moves, the enemy is right behind that move, no matter how small it may seem.Even just this little thread. My heart was grieving and in spirit too for HIS people to experience the fullness and have everything that Christ had died and was resurrected to provide for us.The Power behind the prayer language is not "hooga-booga-hoopla" ... it is real and powerful, when one is alone with God and not knowing what to pray.How many times that I've felt a grieving in my spirit that wouldn't leave and I'd go to my room to pray, but had NO IDEA WHAT THE SPIRIT WAS GRIEVING ABOUT ... so as Paul said, "I pray in the spirit and I pray with understanding" ... so with just child like faith, I'd ask the Father to help me to birth the burden, so to speak, in my understanding and the Spirit will pray through me in the prayer language and then the Lord would give "understanding" and it would be something I didn't even realize was needed to be prayed over.There would have been no way that I 'would' know it. Sometimes it was for my husband or my brother or sister in Christ, or whatever that I could not have known they needed prayer for and even for something that would take place tomorrow or something or to show me demon activity somewhere that I wasn't even aware of, because I don't ever blame too many things on demons, but on foolish decisions people make.I guess because I am so slow to blame devils, that is why, when it comes to that .... the Lord has had to either let me visually see them or show me in some other spiritual way ... because I'm not big into that demon stuff some get into.I believe this thread was one that an invisible entity wanted to undo, so that the saints would shun all things "super-natural" because of the misuse or abuse of the teaching about HIS True "Gifts".It happens everytime, in everyplace, ever since the first Church ... that whenever the Lord breaks through with a deep spiritual truth or move ... here comes the heresies or mis-use of the "gifts" and why Paul had to rebuke the Church in Corinth.I see this attack on this board to make a shame of certain "gifts" and make a mockery of them, to discredit the REAL. The dunamis power that was commmanded we seek "before" we leave out to "witness", etc..That is why there are so many bringing SHAME to the Pentecost experience with their flesh and demonic teachings on these things .... to counterfeit and un-do the real and scare people away from their own Pentecost.Church history testifies to all of this and one need only ask God to open their eyes to see when it is happening.Talk about the Prayer Language and the flood gates of Hell will pour out their nonsense and extremes, etc. to scare of the real or true seekers.Thank you for your exhorting and uplifting posts on this topic and pray in the Spirit for this Site.Your testimony on this previous thread was a wonderful-uplifting encouragement for us all.And Yes from this latest post from you "these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues" but just remember, that the enemy of Christ and His Body will be right on the heels of this truth with Mocking spirits and excesses that turn seekers of truth away.Pray for the Body, that they seek and not stop seeking ALL that He has died to send us, that we may be Mighty in His Name, and most especially in the perilous times ahead.God Bless you & All.