John Wesley died poor coz he didn't read the bible.

I heard someone actually say this once and wanted to get some reaction from you all on this. The theory is this; Luther and Wesley and all the other church fathers that did not preach the "God wants you to be rich" gospel (which is no gospel at all) died poor beacuse they did not have the "fullness of the revelation of God." Yet we have preachers by the droves preaching about money and money and if they have time money. Money conferences and so on--but how many of them are doing the amazing revolutionary work that Luther did or Wesley or Barinerd or Sunday or Spurgeon? I really was struck worng by this little statment. Paul died a pauper, was he lacking revelation? How about John Baptist? what about me? If i die a poor man or a middle class man did i miss the fullness of the revelation? gimmie Jesus--that's all i need---Any thoughts on this? PLEASE NOTE I DID NOT SAY THIS I AM QUOTING

The theory is this; Luther and Wesley and all the other church fathers that did not preach the "God wants you to be rich" gospel (which is no gospel at all) died poor beacuse they did not have the "fullness of the revelation of God.""fullness of the revelation of God." This shows how nutty people are for money. Honestly, I really don't even think these prosperity preachers believe what they're selling. It's just that they have discovered the secret to wealth in America: convince enough people that you have the secret to wealth. WOF Prosperity preachers remind me of this Charles Shultz "Peanuts" cartoon...Lucy is standing behind a booth with a sign that reads" Advice on how to get rich for $5.00." Linus walks up and puts a five dollar bill in her hand. Lucy stuffs the bill in her pocket, and stares into space without saying anything untill Linus finally speaks up, "Hey, aren't you going to show me how to get rich?"Lucy holds her hand out again and replies, "You weren't paying attention."MC

God Wants to Bless His Children.By blessing His children, though, I don't think He is going to load up His "faithful few" with beatiful treasures to die of moth and rust for our own personal enjoyment.The prosperity Gospel sees Wesley and Luther dying as poor men. It must be extremely awful to live a Christian life where you have no money because it's all being spent on doing that whole advancing the Kingdom thing. Passing on to see God face to face at the judgment would much more fulfilling if a Christian left a Hummer behind - a sign of his Faith - compared to one who financed missionaries and assisted in the salvation of thousands.The prosperity Gospel forgets one thing in its cry from the pulpit - "Do not love the world.." If a true relationship with God depends on how much you can get out of Him instead of how much He can get out of you, you are part of a selfish, man oriented, man-centered, pleasing to the eye, moeney seminar in place of church service religion.It's all about God's Glory. "May the Lamb that was slain recieve the reward of His suffering."Not: "May the sinner that was saved receive the reward of satisfied customer."In His,DOI Pet 4:2

:-) You guys should lighten up on these Word of Faith people. After all, wasn't Job's friends Word of Faith?

brethrenthe thing is whatever wealth the Lord bestows on us is not for us to live in multi-million dollar mansions with the finest furnishings and parade it on mtv cribs along with a fleet of expensive tricked out cars...the idea is that the whole body of Christ should benefit from it. case in point in Acts chapt 2 vs 42-47 the word says this:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from F5 house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.and then in acts chapt 4 the word says this:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.note vs 34, none of them lacked for anything because they all shared what they had. this shows what we ought to do with our wealth. however we're not often that open coz we like the concept of "my stuff is my stuff and i'll take whatever i can of yours too..." the bottom line though is that the reason that these believers were so able to do this is outlined in vs 32, they were of 1 mind, heart and soul in the Holy Spirit of God and so their sharing so well was a function of this oneness in the Spirit.for us to come to that place we will have to be pushed into it by dire economic circumstances where survial will mean banding together. out of that depseration and despair we will indeed cry out to God who will hear us and pour out His Spirit on us anew and we'll see (finally) what we've so sought and what the Ravenhills and them prayed for untill they died, REVIVAL!!! Revival will come when we are in a place of complete desperation where we have no choice but to seek God.Lord send your REVIVAL!!!AMEN.

I had to repsond to this one,Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. did Jesus lack revelation?

PR 17:5 He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished.&PR 22:2 Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all.& PR 28:6 Better a poor man whose walk is blameless than a rich man whose ways are perverse.

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness, fight the good fight of faith ....1 Timothy 6:10-11It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. (Many people omit 'the love of'.) Interesting that Paul says that having coveted money, people have erred from the faith. We can see that's true! And 'coveting' is one of the Ten Commandments.This "prosperity gospel" is a big curse on the church worldwide today. Prosperity cannot be gauged by $$ or ££ or whatever currency your country has. It disqualifies the two-thirds world who are poor and not at all rich with cash. We in the one-third world (the west) are VERY rich ; the poorest of us are rich in comparison. It makes for a very wrong gospel when the have-nots are made to feel second class Christians because they do not have this world's goods.It makes a total mockery of the parable Jesus told of the woman who willingly put her last two coins into the temple offering; the rich gave out of their abundance; they did not even miss it. She gave of her last chance to buy food to keep her alive. She gave all.The poor old apostles were excluded to - to quote Peter "Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee - in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk! I know I would prefer to have been walking instead of being lame from birth; money cannot buy healing. ... or can it? I once overheard someone say "I have paid my money, now I expect God to heal me"!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?:-? Sue

the thing is whatever wealth the Lord bestows on us is not for us to live in multi-million dollar mansionsIn this day of world awareness we have no for excuse for hording our wealth while millions of our brothers and sisters around the world are suffering in poverty. We will be judged some day.I don't know why this fact passes over the radar of the Wealth and Health community. It shoud be obvious that there is a lot of poverty. Besides, it should be obvious in scripture that we are responsible for our fellow man - ie the disadvantaged. Diane

John Wesley died "poor" because everytime he got money, he was giving it away. He made millions in his lifetime. He took the parable of the man who was getting rich and storing it in a bigger barn quite literally. One is a fool to think they are rich simply because they've stuffed as much money as they can under their mattress. My pastor pointed this out once, and I've never forgotten it. Where the prosperity preachers miss it is from a Biblical point of view you are prosperous simply if you have all your needs met. My pastor, who doesn't make but $35 grand a year or so, considers himself rich. He says anytime he needs anything, God has supplied his need. You are well off financially if you have everything you need.

Pro 13:7 There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.

Good words brother Gary.2 Cor 9:10-1110 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. NIVWe so often consider riches based on what we posess or can hold in our hands. God does want to make us rich and in every way not to hold on to it but to be generous, to give it away for His glory. What the early church understood is that being rich is having more than you need so you can share.Jeff

Hello Jeff,Wesley notes for those two verses you quoted read:2Co 9:9 - He hath scattered abroad - (A generous word.) With a full hand, without any anxious thought which way each grain falls. His righteousness - His beneficence, with the blessed effects of it. Remaineth for ever - Unexhausted, God still renewing his store. Psa_112:92Co 9:10 - And he who supplieth seed - Opportunity and ability to help others. And bread - All things needful for your own souls and bodies. Will continually supply you with that seed, yea, multiply it to you more and more. And increase the fruits of your righteousness - The happy effects of your love to God and man. Isa_55:10In 2 Corinthians, Wesley quoted a verse that Paul quotes from Psalms 112:9 that says:Psalm 112:9 He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth forever; his horn shall be exalted with honor..................................................Wesley then quotes with 2 Corinthians 9:10 a verse from Isaiah 55:10 which says:Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:Then Isaiah 55:11 which John didn't quote reads:Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it..................................................Notice in his notes for 2 Corintians 9:9 that John has in parenthesis the words {a generous word}. This man Wesley, who seemed to give away the wealth that came into his hands, teaches of the seed of the word in his notes instead of going into the literal seed of their gift. Wesley prefers tho think of the {and increase the fruits of your righteousness} from the verse 2 Corintians 9:10 as the return from planting the seed of the word. It seems to me that Wesley stayed focused on the word instead of being caught up in finances.

Thats one of the occasions when the NIV adds to scripture instead of subtracting from it...I'm sorry, but I'm not so sure I see the difference in what either verse is saying in the two given translations? In this instance, both are utilizing the exact same greek, and the issue is simply one of which is the better translation of the same greek text in this verse.Perhaps the issue you are debating is "being enriched" (KJV) vs "you will be made rich." (NIV/NASB) This phrase is being translated from a word that is a present middle/passive adverbial participle. It is a word that is continuous in action occuring in present time. The most literal translation of this word would be "while being made rich..." The NIV/KJV translations imo, are equally valid. In part, I like the KJV reading a little better, because in general you translate participles with an "-ing" suffix. At the same time though, especially with words that are middle/passive (as in this case) you need to often use the word "being" in translation, of which the KJV does nicely. However, the KJV also makes it sound this is some simple past happening by putting an "-ed" on the end of enrich. This is not some simple past tense happening, it is something that is occuring right now, continuously, over and over again. Thus, the NIV/NASB take a sort of future tense translation, so that one is not confused about it simply being a past event. However, if one is not careful one might read that they are not presently enriched.In my opinion, the KJV/NIV/NASB both make good translations out of this participle, all equally valid, each with it's strengths and weaknesses. I think I might bring this verse to my Greek teacher's attention next week... especially since we are currently working on understanding/translating participles.

Thank you all for the Greek lesson. I have a great desire for linguistics because I understand that communication is based on a common definition of terms used in order to convey a concept. My question would be does the spirit of the concept change with the linguistics? Is not Paul intimating the same concept as Jesus, "And when Jesus heard it, he said unto him, One thing thou lackest yet: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." ASVIs not the principle that, there is no room in the heart of man to have two masters, God and money?Does not James say that the problem with our 'asking' is that we are motivated incorrectly, that we may gratify fleshly desires and not act as children of the Father who gives liberally?It is not the riches that are evil but our passionate pursuit of them for self. Like Wesley I have a passion for the Father and the Son, but if He will allow me to distribute riches that men will repent at the goodness of God, then with this I will also be grateful.Thanks again,Jeff

So long as the translator is attempting to be faithful to his task, and faithfully translate what is in front of him, then the spirit of that translation will be faithful to conveying the same message. Slight nuances might be lost in translation, but so far as I have studied in Greek so far, sometimes to render a word/phrase most literally to encapsulate the entire range of that word's meaning in Greek would make it impossible to understand in english. So, a smoothing out of things is in order. Obviously if you cannot understand a phrase translated most literally, then you will obviously fail in conveying the spirit of that message.

KingJimmy wrote:So long as the translator is attempting to be faithful to his task, and faithfully translate what is in front of him, then the spirit of that translation will be faithful to conveying the same message. The danger in this is that when a person translates the bible he puts what he thinks God is saying down rather than putting it down exactly as it is and allowing the reader to go to God for the understanding of the passage.However, we are getting off the point about riches.I find in situations like this it is often quite easy to show how others are not trusting in God enough, or relying too much on riches. We need to look at ourselves, do we really need that extra car, can we manage without a holiday this year, could we humble ourselves to buy second hand items rather that new.If we follow the example of Wesley and others, we need to concider what we spend our money on and try to be more discerning.Wesley said; "Earn all you can, Save all you can, and Give all you can."The way I understand this is to say that we should work and not rely on charity of others or the state, not that we should work 12hrs for 7 days.Saving doesn't mean stashing it in a bank or off shore investments but buying cheaper things when you can.Give all you can, well can any of us say we give until it hurts?Let's use the examples of others and all these scriptures written in the posts above and apply them to our own lives, rather than sitting smugly in our middle class houses and critisizing false preachers in their mansions ;-)

Hi my name is joshua, i also have been muched greived over this prosperity doctrine, in our day, which seems to have flowed out of the word of faith movement but has been around since the beginning in one form or another im sure. It seems in Paul's day there was a doctrine creeping into the church that exactly resembles the one of today. In the following verses i believe we see this.1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; (what is the wholesome words of the Lord Jesus Christ? and the teaching that is according to Godliness? In context Paul is says that Godliness with contentment is great gain, NOT Godliness is a means of gain. ie being is a christian is an oppurtunity or means to be rich. Part of true godliness is true contentment. What are some of the wholesome words of the Lord, and his teaching on this. Matthew 6:19-34" Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness! 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith? 31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof."We all believers here have an explicit command by our Lord to not invest our finances on storing up things here on earth and an explicit command to store up them in heaven. This was not a option or a suggestion. What did moths primarily destroy in those days. Moths ate clothes, those more so that were not worn much hence "where moth destroy" because clothes being "stored up". Except we dont have that prb in the 20th century because of sinithetic clothing. Gold, silver, etc "were rust destroy" The principal is that everything is going to be destroyed, the things that are are going to fade away, we cannot take them with us. So the Lord is telling us not to store up material things firstly because of there incorruptibility. He commands us to invest our finances into His Kingdom not here on earth, to invest in heaven, not here and now to satisfy ourselves when they will only fade away. He illustrates this to His disciples for us in telling them to sell all they have.Luk 12:33 "Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. 34For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."Excuse" i have all these things but i dont love them, id sell them in a second if God told me to."This is like the guy with porno prob saying with his walls covered magazines pilled everywhere" i dont really love these things id get rid of them if i had to im still pure inside"You reveal were your heart is by were your treasure is. If you have it it show that is where your heart is at, otherwise you wouldnt have it if you didnt want it. IF YOU HAVE IT IT HAS YOU.Then to te rich man he commands the same to be His disciple: Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.The demands of following Christ he said clearly were to forsake all, your life, all you have,take up your cross, and follow him, otherwise you could not be His disciple.(Mat 16:24,Mar 8:34,Mar 10:21,Luk 9:23) Mar 8:35 "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it."These are i think among the many of the wholesome words of our Lord and the teaching according to Godliness; teaching godliness with contentment is great gain.So we go back to verse 3, 1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; (if anyman teach different than what jesus taught, and not agree with his words)1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. (Here we see that Paul is teaching true Christianity, and rebuke heresy that is taught much today especially in america, that gain is godliness, having much, storing up on earth, having riches, luxeries, outwardly, is Godliness. NO, godliness with contentment is great gain! From people that teach this get away from them!)1Ti 6:6But godliness with contentment is great gain. (As Christ teaches, in the eternal investment, and ie. now learning obedience, by self denial)1Ti 6:7For we brought nothing into [this] world, [and it is] certain we can carry nothing out. 1Ti 6:8And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. ( Here it doesnt get any blunter and plainer, we are to be content with the basic needs, food, and clothing. that it. This is our standard agaisnt everything we do with our resources we need to ask ourselves is this a need or a want. Obviously, some people need a vehicle to get to work, but do you need a mercedes? no, with leather seats, no every extra luxuries package no. Thats what your flesh would want. Used or new affortable, best out of it for your money, ie toyota corolla. whatever your job may be that kind of vehicle you need, but the bare nessary the best for your money, most importantly always being led by the H.S with much prayer. We all should consider our jobs too, and if our work is were God wants us, and is it a glorifying to him profession? if not we should get out. Our lives are to be a living sacrifice. Not about us, our dreams, goals, education, future, wants, pleasures, hobbies, etc like the world tells us, but our lives are now all about our King, and putting Him first, and His kingdom first in advansing and furthering that in our lives, in every possible way we can, knowing He is coming soon, knowing that we are going to have to give an account, doing everything 4 the glory of God.To further emphazize my points and some very good resources on this subjects that I highly reccomend is 1. David Kirkwood sermon love of money(a former pastor and graduate of Word Of Faith) listen at www.revivalschool.com under music and sermon downloads on the right column main page.and David has a website too if your interesed. http://www.shepherdserve.org/2. 2 books by K.P. Yohannan, president of Gospel For Asia first is called Revolution In World Missions(His testimony as a native missionary in India, now a servant to the body of Christ raising up, funding sending out native missionaries, and teaching the body of Christ esp. in the US of the great need of the 10/40 window 4 the gospel, and our responsibilities as Christian in this. And a wake up call to the Church to go back to NT Christianity, This book is much like reading the book of Acts, as far as testimonies are concearned), second The Road To Reality Like the first but focusses more on Coming home to jesus from the unreal world, the lies of the present day gospel, our culture and desception, and the call to be a real follower of Christ in these times. Both these books i deff recomend to any serious Christian.Im grived, right now in my life, and Im truly seeking to live my life, for the King, and to follow Him, without any compramise, Im facing a very hard place right now in this area. Please pray for me. Im sharing these things out of love for my brothers here and care for you, this is my convictions, of what our Lord is calling me and all to and always has every believer. K.P. said the true test of our affections is not how much we give but how we live our lives. I do not want an inch of compramise in my life, even if it means losing mother father brother and sister for his sake. I pray that all you would see the truth and sell out for Christ, and be a living sacrifice; to further our Kings kingdom, and follow our Great Commision; to preach the goodnews, and make disciples. Always seeking His Glory, i love brothers and sisters in the Lord. I feel we must not forget to love those who have fallen, or are blind, in this area, we must pray for them, and speak to them, in love and humility. Knowing that no covetours or greedy person shall enter the kingdom of heaven.Here are some more scriptures on this subject. If anyone desires further communcation with me u can email me at adonaisarmy@netscape.netlove in Messiah Yeshua Jesus Christ our Lord, joshuaJob 31:24 If I have made gold my hope, or have said to the fine gold, [Thou art] my confidence;Psa 39:6 Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up [riches], and knoweth not who shall gather them.Psa 62:10 Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart [upon them].Pro 11:4 Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death.Pro 16:16 How much better [is it] to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!Pro 23:5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for [riches] certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.Ecc 2:26 For [God] giveth to a man that [is] good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to [him that is] good before God. This also [is] vanity and vexation of spirit.Ecc 5:10 He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this [is] also vanity.Ecc 5:11 When goods increase, they are increased that eat them: and what good [is there] to the owners thereof, saving the beholding [of them] with their eyes?Ecc 5:12 The sleep of a labouring man [is] sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep.Ecc 5:13 There is a sore evil [which] I have seen under the sun, [namely], riches kept for the owners thereof to their hurt.Ecc 5:14 But those riches perish by evil travail: and he begetteth a son, and [there is] nothing in his hand.Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.Luk 12:21 So [is] he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.Luk 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.Jam 5:1 Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you].Jam 5:2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The real danger is which Greek is the translator translating? Alexandrian or Textus Receptus? If he is translating the Alexandrian then he will end up with something totally different than if he were translating the Textus Receptus. There in lies the real core difference between the Textus Receptus Bibles (KJV, Tyndale, Geneva, etc) and the modern versions (NIV, ESV, NASV etc).Most of the time, it doesn't really matter, as most the greek manuscripts across all the text families agree with eachother by and large. It's not so simple as "Alexandrian vs Byzantine" texts types. Add in Dynamic Equivalency and Textural Criticism, and you end up with a mess... in my humble opinion.Dynamic Equivalency and "smoothing over" rough translations are actually needed. Otherwise the most literal/verbatim translation of a verse can be entirely unintelligible.And as far as textual criticism, the TR is the product of textual criticism. Krispy, I think it would really benefit you if you actually learned some greek and actually took a look at a critical textual aparatus which will tell you where all the manuscripts differ. The aparatus will allow you to decide for yourself if the various committee's were right/wrong with the textual critical issues they made. Thus, you don't have to worry about if so-and-so editor was a member of a satanic cult, homosexual, or had some other agenda. Instead, you can decide for yourself if they were right or wrong in their choices, and have all the exact same evidence at hand that everybody else does. Until then, your humble opinion is simply an ignorant one.

While I am not a student of the Greek language, I have been studying the issue of the differing schools of manuscripts, their origins, their histories, etc. I can say with confidence that I understand the issue at hand quite well.There is more to textual criticism than simply external issues. You don't just say, "well, this text appears to be part of a certain family of manuscripts dating from such and such year." Nor do you just say, "well, we have a lot more versions of this type of manuscript than the other." You must also examine the contents of the manuscripts at hand, and attempt to explain why different manuscripts have differences in them. Simply shouting "it's a conspiracy!" will not do. Such involves asking if an omission/addition of a word or phrase is an accident e.g. looking at the wrong line of a text while copying. Or, perhaps the scribe in copying was attempting to "fix" his copy of a text to make things match closer. e.g. NT quotations of the OT. Or perhaps a scribe was attempting to "update" the quality of grammar used , or even give a slight dynamic equivalent of his own. Granted, such usually involves simply a word or two being modified. But then there is the issue of things like the various endings of Mark 16. How can we explain why Mark has several different endings? I'm really not bragging when I say I am not a novice at this.Until you can actually examine the differing greek manuscripts, you will always be a novice.

If you would really like to go deeper, you can go ahead and teach yourself greek at home. Check out www.teknia.com which contains many valuable greek resources, including the brilliant "Basics of Biblical Greek." With the Basics of Biblical Greek text/workbook, and the Mounce Lecture CD, you'll have enough knowledge of greek to seriously examine the differing manuscripts, and understand issues of translation. This is perhaps the best Greek textbook out there today, used in most seminaries today. The lecture CD is actual lectures Mounce delievered at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, where I go to school. With a little hard work, you can have this stuff down in about 6 months-1 year, and you'll no longer have to simply take some commentators word on what the greek "really says."

This is 18 years old . I thought it may be of interest to people here. I found it by doing a Google search. I had heard John Wesley had died a poor person..

Well, you can't take it with you, David! I'm glad he used it for the furtherance of the Gospel, and others continued the work once he passed on. While I am neither Arminian (Wesley was) or Calvinist (George Whitefield was), today's United Methodist Church (worldly and LGBTQ) does not resemble the Wesley brothers original ministry. But there are Wesleyan Methodist and Primitive Methodist churches which do hold to their founders' tenets. John Wesley, by the way, never sought to make a break from the Church of England all during his ministry. His critics are the ones who called him and his co-workers "Methodists."

Happy New Year!

I read that he made a lot of money due to his writings. etc.
But he died poor because of his charitable nature.

Happy New Year Chris.