Revival Idolatry

Do you think that many of us, especially on this website, seek Revival more than God?I read a little Oswald Chambers this morning over Surrender...and I truly think that I have sought Revival and Ministry more than the face of God these past few months. I don't know....am I the only one who struggles with this? Has anyone else come to a point in their relationship with God where they find themselves praying more for the movement of God than for the intimacy of God?I want revival so that God's glory will be shown and His name vindicated...for souls to be harvested. In the ministry I yearn to see a generation rise up as a hell wrecking, kingdom advancing group who know God face to face. I want to know God's heart...but I tend to put the prior two things above this - any suggestions on balancing these as well??Thanks,DOI Pet 4:2

In the ministry I yearn to see a generation rise up as a hell wrecking, kingdom advancing group who know God face to face.I too deeply want this, but I have come to a reality. That reality is that I am the only one I can control. I do pray that God woul move, yes. The only revival I can truely have a part in is the one that is in me. I can pray for others, preach to others, but I will stand before God alone.

I read a little Oswald Chambers this morning over SurrenderYes, this March 13th item from My Utmost for His Highest has really challenged me also. Chambers said that genuine surrender is a personal sovereign preference for Jesus Christ Himself. I have to ask myself if I prefer the Lord Himself or do I just prefer to consider what he can do for me or the church, including revival. Hard question, the honest answer causes me to groan.Have you ever heard the pain in Leonard Ravenhill's voice in the clip from the Revival Hymn where he says, "I'm tired of reading about revival. I'm tired of writing about revival..."? I feel the same way and yet he never stopped praying for it and neither will I. However Ravenhill went on to say that God seeks men who will do anything He asks, in other words, men with a personal sovereign preference for Jesus Christ Himself.In Christ,Ron

Sometimes I think there is an unhealthy focus on "revival" by many. This is one thing I do not like about Leonard Ravenhill. Revival is needed these days no doubt, but it is interesting that of all the things the likes of Ravenhill and others said on revival, it is actually interesting to see how little the Scriptures really treat the topic of "revival." When you really stop and think about it, how much of what "revivalists" have said is preaching grounded in the Scripture? I think this is perhaps why it seems Ravenhill was led astray near the end of his life by false prophets like Paul Cain and such. I mean, my God, by the end of his life he was pretty much singing the praises of these false prophets and you can see him being manipulated by them all throughout his Aneheim series on revival. They were able to flatter his desire, likening him unto Simeon of Luke 2, saying that before he would die that he would see the revival he longed for. Sadly, Ravenhill never saw the revival he longed for. On top of it, I think if we simply focus on "revival" we will have a tendency towards romanticism. I love Ravenhill and am greatly indebted to him, but I think he tended to suffer from this problem as well. Read almost any of his books where he talks about prophets, and this will be evident if you actually examine the Scriptures closely. Prophets weren't God's crisis men for crisis situations. Such might preach, but it's bad theology. I say instead of focusing simply on "revival" we simply need to focus on Christian living, and all aspects of that living. There are revival junkies, some perhaps on this forum's web site, who know nothing of victorious Christian living. Such is revival.

I want revival so that God's glory will be shown and His name vindicated...for souls to be harvested.I think you just answered yourself! You are jealous for His glory and thats what its about. We cant have revival if we dont "ASK"!! We need a personal revival GREAT, but we need to pray and seek God that our cup would over flow into the church. Evan Roberts was consumed with revival until he had it, and every christian or church didnt just say 'well all I need is personal revival' NO, NO they were consumed with it with brokeness & tears pleading with God....they didnt just wish this into being!! Its easy NOT to pray for revival because it doesnt cost anything.Ravenhill said: "Revival must not be just a once-a-week concern in the midweek church prayer meeting...would any girl become an opera singer by practicing once a week? NO! She must give herself to singing.I was listening to Ravenhill mp3's from another site the other day, and I was kinda taken aback by how little of the scriptures he referenced while he preached. He used a verse here and a verse there as proof texts, but no real Bible teaching. Just a lot of conjecturingRavenhill saw and had real revival in a church...have we?? If I want to learn how to be a world champ at golf....I'll listen with open ears to Tiger Woods...(I dont golf) Krisp, I know what your saying but when or if I pray 8-10 hours like Ravenhill a day maybe I'll see things in a new light.... I wouldnt say anything bad about John Wesley...how could I. These men payed a price that many of us who live in America are not willing to pay.

it is actually interesting to see how little the Scriptures really treat the topic of "revival." When you really stop and think about it, how much of what "revivalists" have said is preaching grounded in the Scripture? Well, I continue to disagree with you but I count you as a brother...I've read every book, every video + videos most people dont have, lots & lot of audio sermons, and you say not enough bible?? I say different.I think this is perhaps why it seems Ravenhill was led astray near the end of his life by false prophets like Paul Cain Led astray!!??? When I look at a giant like this.. I dont shoot from the hip...no,no..... "All things work together"You know its like those ministers who came to his home (Martha told this) and Ravenhill was still sleeping....Martha never told them why he was still sleeping (up praying all night) and those ministers think what kind of preacher is this sleepin in, and telling others to do the opposite?? Those ministers wernt to fond then...Thank God Ravenhill never lived to impress men!!!Maybe we should try that!!??? ;-)

I think Ravenhill is one of the best teachers we have had and the burden he had for the Church was something we could all benefit from. The bible might not use the term revival but it is definitely a theme. Old and New Testament. 1 Chronicles 15:4 But in their distress they turned to the Lord, the God of Israel, and He was found by them. These people sought God wholeheartedly and were rewarded. If you want a revival for His glory and for people to be saved what is wrong with that? I can only reckon myself dead to the flesh and pray for others to come to the same place. Murray

Do you think that many of us, especially on this website, seek Revival more than God?This is a risky question because it asks for our opinion - and that is dangerous ground to tred. We might not see the way God sees. I once heard a revival preacher say, "You can start worshipping revival without knowing it." And that, I fully agree with. In James it says that desires can lead us astray - into sin. It is our desires that cause us to fall prey to temptations. And Satan knows just what we want, and can mimic it with the most ideal temptations. A desire for revival, though, in itself, is not wrong, can be tainted with faulty desires. ex, we want something awesome to happen, something that is exciting, we want things to "turn out right", we want something that we can write about, that makes our church wonderful, get more members, etc etc. There can be a longing in our heart that yearns for somthing that we do not have, cannot have, but we feel we must have it in order to feel secure in our topsy turvey world, to validate our prayers, give us the optimal religious experience, better fellowship .... or whatever. Our "burden" for revival can cause us to miss the obvious - what God is doing under our noses, though in very quiet, unimpressive ways. Idolatrous yearning for revival will side track us an cause us to neglect our present responsibilites. Faulty desires can be very suble and unconscious, not obvious like those who run here and there to "revival" meetings, renewal meetings or whatever. (even then, we must be very careful how we judge, for God is quite able to use even faulty desires)Scripture tells us to be content, wait patiently, trust in God's timing, continue being disciples and love those who are in our lives right now - even the "unrevived" ones. To rest in the Lord, yet feel a burden for revival - that is our challenge. Have you ever thought that God might answer our prayers in the next generation?Diane

I read a little Oswald Chambers this morning over Surrender...and I truly think that I have sought Revival and Ministry more than the face of God these past few months.One of Owswald Chambers writing gifts is his ability to identify the fat in our faith. When reading him he always seems to have my number if I am seeking mountain top experiences, or living off my own enthusiasm rather then depending soley on Christ...even during the dull times. In fact many of us Christians don't even feel permission to go through mundane or dull times. We've been sold some CCM hype that God needs to always be doing a "New Thang" and if our lives aren't poppin' like microwave popcorn then we are not experiencing the fullness of Christ....instead of focusing simply on "revival" we simply need to focus on Christian living, and all aspects of that living. I like this common sense statement! In following a physical workout routine I sometimes feel uninspired or unmotivated by lack of progress to reach my goals. I have to remind myself, "I'm not building a body...I'm building a way of life and the body will follow."I think Romans 12 describes the "way of life" for the Christian. It says nothing about revival per se...in fact much of it sounds downright unexciting. Yet if this is how we live our lives before the Lord, the Body will become manifestly "revived". Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Good point. Would you know revival is often precipitated by a crises in an individuals life? (I am talking about personal revival..it has to begin there before it can go any further). This can be a severe one...are you ready for that? So the simple answer to revival is for one to get close to God and be willing to be obedient to whatever he calls you to, whether you like it or not. I have the feeling Abraham was not jumping up and down and shouting "Praise the LORD!" when God asked him to go sacrifice his son Isaac...and as a result he is held up as an example of a man of faith. ginnyrose

Well put, Roadsign! Murray

interesting brethrenit seems to me Ravenhill was given a burden for revival more than most of us and while he didn't live to see it it seems he remained obedient to that to the end. but somehow i think that the day to day living of the Christian life is a revival, a return to what and where we should be, like bro kingjimmy said, it's victorious Christian living. that's what revival is, a return to what God has called us to be and we are on the verge of the final one. in as much as Ravenhill may appeared (or was indeed) led astray toward the end of his life by false prophets, someone said that all things work together for the good...that's the bottom line.we all have different burdens that the Lord gives us and we should be obedient to the carrying of those and also living as we should.

Sister Diane wrote:Our "burden" for revival can cause us to miss the obvious - what God is doing under our noses, though in very quiet, unimpressive ways. Idolatrous yearning for revival will side track us an cause us to neglect our present responsibilites. Matt. 20:1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and said to them, “You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, “Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, “Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’Matt. 20:8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, “These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, “Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”I get the sense that we often want to be those that are spoken of in the parable above:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, “Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ We have no desire to be those that were first hired. I know of a church where the pastor continues to hope for the works of the Spirit and sets up meetings, to enable God, to work in those meetings. Yet this same pastor preaches nothing of what it means to walk with Jesus. Only Jesus loves you so, so, so, much. Come and enter into the promise of heaven. The sheep continue in their old ways and have not learned of the ways that God loves. The substance of what they hope for is found in the things that they can see. They learn nothing of seperation from this world. So in a way, revival becomes another crutch to those who are in bondage to sin. In ChristJeff

So in a way, revival becomes another crutch to those who are in bondage to sin. Well phrased Brother Jeff....never thought of it quite like that.On another note...can someone please explain to me the deal with Ravenhill being led astray by false prophets toward the end of his life? I have never heard this and would like to know what happened.In His,DOI Pet 4:2

Revival is not something God holds back waiting for special times and circumstances. In fact it is not abnormal at all. At least from God's point of view it's not. We think what happens when we experience revival is abnormal and that is a sad indicator of our knowledge of Him, or rather our lack of knowledge of Him. According to 2 Chronicles 7 it is a return to normal. Not normal from our point of view, but from God's. There is much talk about revival but little evidence of it and that means we still refuse to see things from His point of view.A large part of the problem is that people have different things in mind when they talk about revival. Most people think of miracles and large numbers of people coming to Christ as revival. These things are not revival. They happen as results of revival. People begin to pray for these things thinking that they are revival and miss the point. What is revival? Revival is when God's people, who are called by His name, humble themselves, pray, seek His face, and turn from their sin. In other words, confession and repentence. God told Solomon that when He shut up the heavens and there was no rain, when the locusts devoured the land, and there was pestilence among His people, it was because of sin.There is idolotry, but not revival idolotry. There is a desire to see the inspiring things (like miracles) without paying the price of repentence. All we really want is the warm fuzzies. A desire for true revival is one that yearns for God to reveal all sin so that it can be confessed and turned from. It is a desire to live a holy life, a desire for Jesus to live His life in us.

I have studied revivals from first century onward, and you always trace it back to an individual praying or a group of people praying FOR IT!! "ASK and you shall recieve"I dont mind using the word revival because it gives a sense of what direction we need...I dont want to give a 1 page essay to describe revival...we just say revival, or new test. christianity. When I was licensed years ago to be a pastor I had to sit down with a board of ministers from the state....they asked me what is your goal in the next 10 years or so...at 24 years old I said without thinking 'I want to get back to the new test. church'.....I still years later...this is still my longing...revival! When we pull out the old books like: Bounds, Finney, Moody, Tozer, Roberts, Smith, Hyde, ECT... They all longed for revival!! I long to see a church walk in the power of the Spirit and "CONTINUE" as the disciples did...revival. I long to see the glory of God in church not just one or 2 weeks but continually. I dont care if they believe in speaking in tounges, or if they believed once saved always saved ect... Richard Owen Roberts said: "Revival is when heaven is nearest" Like he said also 'what christian wouldnt long for that!!' YES,YES what christian wouldnt long for that!!!

I can understand the tendency to look for "revival" but I see revival as I consciously and intentionally surrendering every area of my life to Jesus. It's not a finished deal yet in my heart but that's what I'm seeing happening and it's been a lengthy letting go process. I pray your heart hasn't been as hard as mine because it repeatedly has to be broken...I've read about revival and it seems as though the same thing happens in revival, although the time to give everything over to Jesus is greatly shortened.It's not an emotional experience but a conscious letting go of all sin, much of it which goes back to childhood. The revival is simply the fruit as there's nothing between the heart of Jesus and my heart because everything has been given over to Him.It's not my money, my time, etc. it all belongs to Jesus. I would think that a revival without Jesus wouldn't really be a revival would it? Perhaps I'm missing something.

I have studied revivals from first century onward, and you always trace it back to an individual praying or a group of people praying FOR IT!! "ASK and you shall recieve"And yet, I have to say that in the past 10 years there has been a lot of praying for revival - many more than just one person. Now are we all defective in our prayers, or is God indeed doing the work of revival in his way and time. Well, to me it is just the opposite. I'm seeing all kinds of people fall away, stray, I see the church moving further away from God.I think part of the revial process is the preparation for it - and God only knows how long that is to be. And even then, I believe that God can overrule man's resistance in a flash. Look at the amazing testimonies during revivals - the amazing sweep of God's hand. I have come to believe that without this happening again, we will not be able to sustain the Christian faith - as it is meant to be, for long. We need divine intervention. Even though we may define revival as a simple condition of personal obedience, I believe there is also a time when God supernaturlly "rends the heavens" and comes down in holy fire. Certainly history has proven that - and that is what we long for. The only problem is, we start expecting revival to look certain ways that they are not. And people capitolize on our yearning for revival and sell revival caps, t-shirts, and CD's. Wouldn't you want to be identified as a yearner of revival - and wear a cap so that everybody can know..... Oh.... maybe you'd rather wear a cap that says "God-chasers". In all seriousness, to me this writer, Becky McLendon has a good understanding of Revival: It's messyWelcome to RevivalDiane

Well, I continue to disagree with you but I count you as a brother...I've read every book, every video + videos most people dont have, lots & lot of audio sermons, and you say not enough bible?? I say different.I'm simply sayin sometimes revivalists such as Ravenhill don't preach much from the scripture. Sometimes he does a lot of stuff straight from the Scripture, but, frankly, sometimes he seems more interested in quoting Wesley or Finney.Led astray!!??? When I look at a giant like this.. I dont shoot from the hip...no,no..... "All things work together"Yes, Led astray. He was manipulated like a puppet on a string. If you knew much of anything about individuals like Paul Cain and a lot of the "prophets" that were at that Anaheim meeting Ravenhill spoke at, and listened to how they pulled his strings (e.g. telling him what to pray for, getting him to sing their praises, etc), then you would conclude it as well. Don't let your admiration for Ravenhill keep you from discerning flaws when they are so evident. This is no shooting from the hip here.

Ravenhill saw and had real revival in a church...have we?? Ravenhill was never part of anything larger than individual church revivals. To my knowledge, he never partook of a revival that shook a city or nation. There have been many such revivals, and without a doubt, I'd say some on this message board have partook of such. Don't get me wrong, Ravenhill was quite a powerful minister. But considering all the praying he did (10+ hours a day for probably most of his life), he never saw what he was praying for. As important as revival is, it would seem it doesn't simply come through prayer and fasting.

On another note...can someone please explain to me the deal with Ravenhill being led astray by false prophets toward the end of his life? I have never heard this and would like to know what happened.Listen to the Aneheim Revival meetings Ravenhill spoke out with all the false prophets he was rubbing elbows with. If you know much of anything about the "prophetic movement," you should know right off bat that most if not all these folks he was speaking with were false. What's more alarming is that none of these "prophets" would even come close the description Ravenhill gave of what a "prophet" was.

Listen to the Aneheim Revival meetings Ravenhill spoke out with all the false prophets he was rubbing elbows with.How did Ravenhill's associations with these "false folks" actually influence him to go astray? What false teachings did he adopt and promote? How old was he when this happened? What might have "pulled" him off course? I was once at a Kathrine Kualman crusade and sang in her choir. But one can't assume that I was led astray by her, just because of that. Could it be so with Ravenhill? Diane

Ravenhill was never part of anything larger than individual church revivals. To my knowledge, he never partook of a revival that shook a city or nation.I dont know if you knew but Ravenhill was a pastor and had a real revival in his church!?You see thats why we have to be careful of what we say about men of God....

I'm simply sayin sometimes revivalists such as Ravenhill don't preach much from the scripture. Sometimes he does a lot of stuff straight from the Scripture, but, frankly, sometimes he seems more interested in quoting Wesley or FinneyI totally agree we must always "preach the word" but God has used in the past just simple testimonies of past revivals to bring real revival to churches....

Thanks Diane for drawing our attention to "preparing for it." What do we mean by revival anyway? Are we discussing a renewed interest in religion? Are we refering to resuscitation of someone who is dead? Personally I view renewed interest in religion as simply moving from one form of death to another. Jesus said in John 10:10 "I came that they may have life, and may have (it) abundantly." ASVI have heard messages preached that this abundant life is having more things, just like the Joneses next door. Did Jesus come that we may have more of the same old same old?John 17:3 "And this is life eternal , that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, (even) Jesus Christ." ASVThe abundant life that Jesus came to give is an extraordinary, personal, intimate, experiential knowledge of the Father and the Son. Maybe the reason we desire 'revival' so much is that it is simply an IV of the life of God that He intends for us to experience everyday. If we perceive the presence of God as something that comes and goes based on prayer or good preaching then we will be starving much of the time. The promise of God to followers of the Lord, Jesus Christ, is, "If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." John 14:23 ASV The point being as we walk in obedience to the revelation of the Word of God that we have received, there will be a greater perception of the presence of the One, who said, "I will never leave you or forsake you." It is not God who comes and goes but our ability to perceive Him.Luke 8:18 "Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not , from him shall be taken away even that which he thinketh he hath." ASVIf we are not diligent to obey the voice of God in the truth that He has already revealed, then we surrender ourselves to a thicker veil limiting our perception of His glory.If we are talking about 'revival' among those who are not in the Body of Christ yet, then may I suggest that we join Jesus in praying, John 17:20-2120 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word;21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, (art) in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me. ASVIt is unity of the Body under the control of the Head which will cause the world to hunger and thirst for righteousness. Our best human efforts will not produce the unity of the Body. We must understand with Jesus that only the Father can produce unity in the Body of Christ by infusing it with His love. John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." ASVWhen we surrender to the Spirit of God to form in us the image of the Son such that we value other believers, because Jesus is in them, in spite of doctrinal differences, and express that value in honor prefering one another, then the world will see something worth being revived about.Let us drink minute by minute of His eternal life by acting upon the Word He has already spoken into our spirits and receive fresh revelation of His abiding presence and love.Jeff

J. Edwin Orr, Leonard Ravenhill, and many other preachers that you can hear on this site said that any church could experience revival at any time. They said that it depends on the people of God repenting. They were only repeating what God said in scripture. In 2 Chronicles 7 God put the ball in our court. The only reason anyone needs revival is bacause of disobedience to God. In medicine, who needs to be revived? Someone dead or almost dead. If you don't like the term revival, the Old Testament uses the term renewal. What needs to be renewed? Something that is old, worn out, not fresh. Revival is not something special that God blesses us with as we live out a "normal" Christian life. The reason the process leading to revival is long is because the church in America is very comfortable. Look at the top of this page. See the quote by Stephen Olford? We are not desparate as a people. There might be desparate people scattered throughout the church but the church as a whole is not desparate. Our problem is that we think that the way things are is normal. Look at Acts chapter 2 and you will see what is normal. We are mediocre at best compared to that.

Sometimes I think there is an unhealthy focus on "revival" by many. Amen. This strong desire for "revival" almost ruint my entire ability to minister anything. To simply share the gospel, or give an open air sermon, or a small Bible study, I felt like a failure because the rushing wind simply wasn't shaking the walls. The failure I perceived led me to extreme discouragement. Since being healed of that, I now look to Jesus, and just try to make a difference wherever I can - even if people aren't falling on their faces under my preaching (although many were convicted and motivated - I just couldn't live with such meager results as those).Just my 2 cents.

Bomar,I know Finney is well received here on SI and I write this only with trepidation. But it is very possible your thoughts have been shared by others, more well known through the years.I have read accounts that evangelical Christianity virtually disappeared from western New York in Charles G. Finney's own lifetime. Even considering Finney's accounts of glorious revivals, most of the vast region of New England where he held his revival campaigns fell into a permanent spiritual coldness during Finney's lifetime and more than a hundred years later still has not emerged from that condition.The Western half of New York became known as "the burnt-over district," some have attributed this to the negative effects of the revivalist movement that culminated in Finney's work there. Even Finney himself spoke of "a burnt district" in his Memoirs, and he wrote of the absence of any lasting fruit from his evangelistic efforts, when he said : I was often instrumental in bringing Christians under great conviction, and into a state of temporary repentance and faith . . . . [But] falling short of urging them up to a point, where they would become so acquainted with Christ as to abide in Him, they would of course soon relapse into their former state. One of Finney’s associates Asa Mahan wrote:“During ten years, hundreds, and perhaps thousands, were annually reported to be converted on all hands; but now it is admitted, that real converts are comparatively few. It is declared, even by [Finney] himself, that "the great body of them are a disgrace to religion"He also added: “that everyone who was concerned in these revivals suffered a sad subsequent lapse: the people were left like a dead coal which could not be reignited; the pastors were shorn of all their spiritual power; and the evangelists—"among them all," he says, "and I was personally acquainted with nearly every one of them—I cannot recall a single man, brother Finney and father Nash excepted, who did not after a few years lose his unction, and become equally disqualified for the office of evangelist and that of pastor."I am curious to hear from others what your studies may have revealed concerning any of this? I cannot help but wonder if this compares in any way to so many of our contemporary Evangelists and the extraordinary claims that are never substantiated. But when the Minister himself concedes that there was very little fruit from his efforts, I don’t know exactly what to make of it. I do know this Bomar, God’s Word will not return void. Even when we do not “see” the results that we think (or others)think we should be seeing as you mentioned. Can it be enough for us to simply take our place in the work of the Gospel, for some that will mean planting seed, for others to water, for others to nurture and for others to harvest. And first and foremost before any work is attempted, is for us to be desirous to walk in the Spirit, having the mind of Christ, only that He might increase as we decrease.blessings,tonysResources used:1)B. B. Warfield, Studies in Perfectionism, 2 vols. (New York: Oxford, 1932)2)On Revivals of Religion: A Review of Charles G. Finney, by Albert Dod.3)Memoirs Of Revivals Of Religion, Charles G. Finney

Hi all, I don't post much on here, but after reading this I felt compelled to reply. Do you think that many of us, especially on this website, seek Revival more than God?I used to struggle with myself. I listened to my first Ravenhill sermon about a year ago and I've never been the same since. I've listened to many other sermons of his since then. My prayer life has completely changed. I've grown closer in my walk with God than ever in my life. I have desired God and revival and, well, this did become a problem for me. The question kept lingering in my mind:Just what is it that we should be seeking--God or revival? Ravenhill adequately answers this question in the Revival Forum video. And it totally clicked in my mind when I heard it.Revival is God!Revival is not just a whole bunch of people getting saved, it's God coming down in His glory. Leonard Ravenhill made it clear. We're not supposed to be seeking revival, we're supposed to be seeking God! "What does it say in Malachi? 'The Lord whom ye seek...' We're not seeking Him, we're seeking revival, we're seeking healing, we're seeking miracles. It's not that we need--if we get God we get all that's needed!" As he put it, "The first commandment is not 'Thou shall be a soul-winner,' the first commandment is 'Thou shall love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.'" We should seek God and His glory every day, and not be able to live without His presence. The day that Christ's church awakens and starts longing for the Lord in this manner, we will see revival.

The Scriptures that teach us how to live the Christian life are helpful to those who know God and are empowered by the Spirit, are truly born again and set free. "you are free to be God's slaves" 1 Pet. 3:16 But I believe that the church as we see it is beyond that point. The reality, is the people (professing Christians) are UNABLE TO. And that is the first step we must come to see. We as a church are fatally wounded – and can’t even to see our need for divine healing (true salvation): Jeremiah said: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure." Jer. 17:9 Joshua pronounced this same fatal diagnosis in his farewell address to Israel: "'You are not able to serve the Lord.' However, the people (all younger than him) couldn’t see this fatal diagnosis of their hearts: ”But the people said to Joshua, 'No! We WILL serve the Lord and obey him' Then Joshua, who had lived long enough to know the futility of such good intensions said, 'You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord." Joshua 24:19 -24. Isaiah pronounced the same fatal diagnosis on the rebellious nation of Israel by referring to them as a wounded body:Your whole head is injured, your whole heart is afflicted. From the soul of your foot to the top of your head,there is no soundness - only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil. Is. 1:5,6Jeremiah told Israel: "Your wound is incurable, your injury beyond healing. There is no one to plead your cause, no remedy for your sore, no healing for you." Jer. 30:12 Paul even recognized the fatal condition in himself:I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn,I cannot make myself do right." Rom. 7:18 NLBClearly, we CANNOT live the Christian life. We cannot bring about revival. We need divine enlightenment and empowerment. I believe that scripture clearly teaches that without God’s intervention the Church would cease to exist. Redeemed life is not genetically transferred. What is transferred, however, is the form of godliness – through social conditioning. And, sadly, we highly value that. The church will never recognize its fatal diagnosis unless God himself reveals it. And he will, no doubt when we feel the full effects of our fatal diagnosis and are ready to cry out to him in desperation, saying, “Lord, save me, help me, I CAN’T” As of yet, I believe that we are just like Israel was in Joshua’s day,declaring: “We WILL serve the Lord.’ If you question this deception, just study the words of most of our contemporary songs. Diane

Bomar wrote:Amen. This strong desire for "revival" almost ruint my entire ability to minister anything. To simply share the gospel, or give an open air sermon, or a small Bible study, I felt like a failure because the rushing wind simply wasn't shaking the walls. Man....amen brother. When I first became a full time minister, I became so discouraged when I didn't see this great movement that I had made up in my mind. Praise God for just being obedient to Him as the standard, and nothing else that can come from our hands.In His,DOI Pet 4:2

Amen brother DO!1 Cor 3:5-75 What then is Apollos? and what is Paul? Ministers through whom ye believed; and each as the Lord gave to him.6 I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.7 So then neither is he that planteth anything, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. ASVWhat a freedom in ministry came when He showed me that my responsibility is to faithfully do whatever he tells me and not concern myself with the results. I can take no credit for His increase and take no guilt or shame if I see nothing, if I have been faithful. Some fruit will come after I am long departed but His reward is for faithful obedience not fruit count!Jeff

How did Ravenhill's associations with these "false folks" actually influence him to go astray? What false teachings did he adopt and promote?How old was he when this happened? What might have "pulled" him off course?I'm not really sure how far their influence made on him in this latter part of his life. All I know is that in one of his sermons he refers to one of these individuals as a good friend, which is very shocking. If I recall correctly, the Aneheim series was in the last year or two of his life. I hope the only thing that "pulled him off course" was his old age and perhaps him not being all mentally there.

Ravenhill was never part of anything larger than individual church revivals. To my knowledge, he never partook of a revival that shook a city or nation.I dont know if you knew but Ravenhill was a pastor and had a real revival in his church!?

I would also like to say, as wonderful as the sermons and books of individuals like Ravenhill have been in my walk, I must say I don't have a great interest in hearing too much more of his sermons and such. Frankly, as much as the messages of no compromise and revival are needed, they simply are not going to give one enough meat to live the victorious Christian life. Frankly, such messages aren't really meat, but are milk. Hebrews acknowledges this as such:Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. Most of "revival" preaching such as Ravenhill and the like talked about focuses on laying a foundation of repetnance and faith towards God, and talking about eternal judgment. And no doubt, such messages ARE needed. And no matter how much we mature in the Lord, we will need to be reminded of these things, just as Peter said (2 Peter 1:12-15).But frankly, one will have a hard time living the victorious Christian life if all one hears is "repent, we need revival, Jesus is coming, we need to look at things in light of eternity, we need to pray more!" As great as these things are, they are only the basics. And yes, these basics still challenge me! But there is so much more and more meaty things to chew on. This is what I like about men like A.W. Tozer. He had a lot to say on revival and such. However, at the same time he was able to dig into the depths of the Scriptures, and teach on them. I would imagine that many of those who sat under Tozer's ministry were very sound and balanced Christians. And as history seems to testify to, those who simply sit under revivalists seldom seem to endure in the faith, let alone reach maturity.

I don't have a great interest in hearing too much more of his sermons and such. At least we know now. :-)

At least we know nowWell, I say this after listening to nearly 75% if not more of his sermons on here, and reading every book he wrote.

I must say I don't have a great interest in hearing too much more of his sermons and such. Thank you for the acknowledgement.

bro Krispy you wroteKrispyKrittr wrote:There has not been one serious revival in America since 1900. Nor will there be one in the future. And there is a reason for that.It's called Bible versions.Think I'm wrong? Name one serious revival in America since 1900, other than false revivals like Brownsville or Toronto... etc. Krispyi know you're wrong on both counts.there is coming a revival here in America and indeed the world. the reason for there not being any revivals here since 1900 is not because of bible versions (really i'm not sure how big of a role that played) but rather because people have not been seeking the Lord earnestly and we have hindered the Lord's Holy Spirit by all manner of things, our programs, theologies and all sort of other foolishnes which quenched(s)and grieved(s) the Holy Spirit. also we are too busy with other things, entertaining ourselves and so on. edit:in addition bro Rahman said on another thread in the news and intercession section that a lot of people will be at this celebration of the azusa st centennial coming up. Jakes, dollar, paula white and a bunch of others will be there to celebrate this yet none of these people are advocating any sort of move to seek the Lord for Him to pour out His Spirit afresh coz we know we need Him. noone has suggested we fall on our faces and repent and seek the Lord, instead we marvel at what was instead of seeking the Lord for what He wants to do in and through us now and in future.this revival which is coming will be as a result of the Lord reducing whatever it is we hold dear to tatters such that there will be nothing else to do save for seeking Him. all the things we pride ourselves in are set to be destroyed so that those who would seek the Lord earnestly will indeed do so and those who are not about God's business will jump ship. the church organization as we know it, our economy, military might and revered governmental system is set to be reduced to shreds to compel us to seek God and His revival. of course this also serves the purpose of preparing the way for the antichrist but out of the suffering which is ahead there will come out of it a Church without spot or wrinkle such as Christ is returning for (we're not about to be raptured till we're cleaned and purified so we will suffer persecution)and a people after the very heart of God.

Healingwaters,Quote:I truly don't care about anything but this one thing, to know my heavenly Father, thats all I want. Souls are not my priority, I am sorry if that offends anyone, but I've been in this too long and seen alot of stupid things in the name of churchanity, and when you get sick of all that, all there is left is just knowing the LORD, nothing else matters. Be critical, I am not interested. May we be so filled with the Spirit of God that sitting down next to someone would cause there to be repentance, that they would have to confess there sins, recieve healing and forgiveness.-ANewInHim

Maybe simply put, "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all those things shall be added to you" (Matthew 6:33). Seeking the things of God I think could be the same as seeking Him. You seek the kingdom, that's seeking Him. You seek His righteousness, you seek Him. Then the life transformed, the personal revival, just may be the thing that's added unto you.

sis YodiMaybe simply put, "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all those things shall be added to you" (Matthew 6:33). Seeking the things of God I think could be the same as seeking Him. You seek the kingdom, that's seeking Him. You seek His righteousness, you seek Him. Then the life transformed, the personal revival, just may be the thing that's added unto you.and that's the bottom line, seek ye first the kingdom of God...AMEN.

There has not been one serious revival in America since 1900. Nor will there be one in the future. And there is a reason for that.It's called Bible versions.This is of course, absurd. Different bible versions have always existed in every culture, and revival has existed as well. Shoot, the early church spread like wildfire when books like the Shepherd of Hermas were considered canonical by some.

Brothers and sisters what do we mean by this 'Kingdom of God' that we are to seek? For so many today it seems to be bigger buildings, bigger crowds, more territory. Didn't Jesus tell Pilate in John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world"? ASV If it is not of this world what is it of?Jesus Christ came to be first and foremost King of the hearts of men. When we seek the Kingdom of God we seek to enthrone Him in our hearts. Revival comes when I surrender to His right to reign in my heart.When I pray "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" I am asking Him to establish His rule in my heart such that His will is done, His voice obeyed, by me just as it is done in Heaven.Jeff

bro Krispyboy did yu ever come across as thinking that bible versions were solely responsible for the lack of revival...lolCertainly riches is part of it. But this country has always been wealthy compared to other parts of the world. The apathetic attitude comes from many places... but I believe that most of it comes from an apathetic attitude toward the Word of God.well i don't think America has always been wealthy compared to most places until recently in the last century. the British for example had and still have a lot of wealth. the empire stretched over 60-70% of Africa which gave (and still gives)them access to untold amounts of natural resources. for example the largest diamond company in the world and indeed one of the first, the de beers company was founded by a guy named cecil rhodes after which rhodesia, later zimbabwe (where i'm from) the rise of america as world power really began in the late 1800s. i must ask though if we are the wealthiest nation how come we have the most debt? that still doesn't make sense to me...but i digress.Any true supporter of modern versions is being intellectually dishonest if he/she says that they know with certainty that they have the preserved Word of God in their hands. If they say that, then they are a liar because modern version not only disagree with the Textus Receptus, they also disagree with each other.well i'm not sure how many people are even aware of the different textforms i dare say a small number.people are aware however that things get lost in translation even from the perfect text. for example in my language, Shona there is no word for soul so in some places it's translated as spirit and other places life which can be problematic. i'm not sure what text this translation is based on but there are a host of other words in the greek or hebrew which have no equivelent in Shona but what is the same though is the Spirit of God through which His word is preserved. i'd been reading the n.i.v and good news version for some time before i learned of this textus receptus and all this other stuff and i still use those versions and they haveno hindered my walk with God at all. in fact they have proven to me that it is the Spirit of God who ministers to us and reveals His word to us...well you know how i feel about this issue bro.but anyway even if we did have the perfect text and we said so people would still say "and so, what's your point." having the perfect text would no more convince anyone that the word of God is the word of God, only the Lord can convict one to believe thusly. And until believers in this country realize that what is in the KJV is God's preserved Word, I believe there will be no great revival in this country.huh? you know how i feel about this KJV-O issue. i use it on occasion. i find it cumbersome but the Lord is showing me how to get around that by His Spirit. There will be no revival here until we are at a point of desperation such that we seek the Lord earnestly and not half-step this...and that desperation is fast-coming.And before someone accuses me of being "KJV-O", let me state very clearly that I am in favor of a version being made in modern English... but only if it is based on the Textus Receptus alone, with no footnotes alluding to the differences between it and the Alexandrian Text. So far no one has. I could care less what is in or not in the Alexandrian Text. It's corrupt, it's junk.i think probably there are some believers who could care less what's in the textus receptus just as much as you're unconcerned for what's in the alexandrian texts. personally its of no consequence to me what's in them, i don't feel led of God to dig them up and study them so i'm not foolin with that. my concern is what is the Lord trying to minister to me by His Spirit through this n.i.v., g.n.b. and k.j.v. He has me using. by virtue of the fact that the Lord has me use these 3 texts and has not been hindered by them says to me His Spirit is the vehicle by which His word is preserved rather than the texts.in short all this is a result of a lack of regard for the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. we acknowledge Him in word only rather than yield to Him who knows and does only the will of God.

Someone mentioned Azusa Street. I reject that as a revival because of the numerous false doctrines that it was based on and that have come out of it.You reject the Azusa street revival as being from God? The Pentecostal movement has been the leading movement to spread Christianity across the globe this past century. It is the most dynamic movement in all church history. More people have been saved as a result of the pentecostal movement in the past 100 years than in the 1900 years prior to it. Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater just because all the doctrines espoused by those in the movement have not been right. There has not been one revival in all of history that had perfect doctrine or practice. Luther, Calvin, Spener, Zwingly, Edwards, Zinzendorf, Whitefield, Wesley, etc., all had doctrine that wasn't correct, and often those that sat under them were a bit more off than these great leaders. As a Pentecostal, I don't even agree with all the things taught historically in classical pentecostalism, and some of the stuff is just embarrasingly bad. But I still recognize a clear move of God when I see one. The same goes with Luther, Calvin, and all those of the reformed faith. Some of them had some pretty wacky doctrine, e.g. limited atonement, but likewise, I recognize the clear move of God still. Same goes with Wesley. I love Wesley, but I find his doctrine of christian perfection to be way off in much of what he says, yet, if I could travel through history, I'd have stoped back in the mid 1700's to hear him preach open air.

Any true supporter of modern versions is being intellectually dishonest if he/she says that they know with certainty that they have the preserved Word of God in their hands. If they say that, then they are a liar because modern version not only disagree with the Textus Receptus, they also disagree with each other.I know some Greek with almost a year's study of it under my belt, and have a couple "critical" additions of the Greek NT, that will tell you exactly where all the "differences" are, and will tell you which of the thousands of manuscripts differ from eachother. Yet, I am entirely confident we have the preserved word of God even in spite of the disagreements that some manuscripts have with eachother. For that matter, not even all the manuscripts that compose the "received text" agree with eachother. So, the "modern texts" do disagree with eachother, but, so do the one's from the TR. The fact of the matter is (not counting small fragments of course), there is not one greek manuscript that agrees exactly with any other greek manuscript. They all contain some sort of scribal error in them. To say otherwise is to be like an ostrich, with one's head in the sand.True... but God did not promise to preserve manuscripts. He promised to preserve His Words. There are numerous examples in the OT of God writing His Word down a second time. Moses for example. I think God has a pretty good memory of what He said.And notice this example you cite. There was a time in which God passed on His word to Moses, yet that word was ENTIRELY destroyed. So, for a while, that word didn't exist in any manuscripts whatsoever. Granted, that was a short time, and the word of God was written again. We do have God's preserved Word today. We can know with certainty that we do. But I'm one of a dying breed.How do you know with certainty that the TR is the only preserved word of God today? It's entirely absurd to assert such, for you won't find the Bible saying the TR is it. The same verses that promise the preserving of God's words found in the KJV are also found in my NASB. And before someone accuses me of being "KJV-O", let me state very clearly that I am in favor of a version being made in modern English... but only if it is based on the Textus Receptus alone, with no footnotes alluding to the differences between it and the Alexandrian Text.What about if somebody published a new translation based on the TR saying where the TR manuscripts disagree with eachother? How would you feel about that?

Thats a bit of a stretch, brother. It's a historically true comment that is pretty well documented. It is estimated there are roughly 300-500 MILLION people on the face of this earth that would fall under the Pentecostal/Charismatic umbrella (I personally lean more towards the lower number myself). Granted, there are perhaps a lot of wacko's in that statistic, but even then, it would still dwarf anything else falling under the Christian faith. The only one claiming a larger number of adherents is Rome. And indeed, not everything that happened at Azusa Street was biblical by any stretch of reasoning. It was not one big happy revival by any means. Even those in the forefront of that movement in that city recognized this was the case. But by and large, I believe it still was of God (not one revival in history was without problems), as it continues today to even still spread throughout the globe, bringing the gospel to places its never been before with outstanding results.

Krispy, Let me just slide in next to you here...this post has taken a differnt direction overnight.... I do side with krispy on the KJV part... I have told people for years every time theres a revival its with KJV......We havent seen a revival with all these translation or mistranlations ;-) Just ask someone to quote a verse and its usally KJV.

Psalm 1188 \tIt is better to trust in the LORD\tThan to put confidence in man. 9 \tIt is better to trust in the LORD\tThan to put confidence in princes. This precept will always be presented to those who believe. Whether it is Moses, David, Ravenhill, Tozer, or whoever one thing is sure. God will give you reason to trust only in Him. Men can only sow and water, but the increase comes for God. Those who drink of this increase will learn that there is no end to the source from which this water flows. Psa. 23:1 \tThe LORD is my shepherd;\tI shall not want. 2 \tHe makes me to lie down in green pastures;\tHe leads me beside the still waters. 3 \tHe restores my soul;\tHe leads me in the paths of righteousness\tFor His name’s sake. Revival comes to those who come to Him.In ChristJeff

bro KrispyKrispyKrittr wrote:IRONMAN,You and I do differ on this issue, and thats ok. I know you're saved and serving God. I hear what you're saying and you do have good points.But as for revival, I still hold my ground on what I said.Did you know, for instance, that the KJV was not called the King James Version until 1929? Before that it was always referred to as The Authorized Version. However, with the influx of new versions such as the RSV, sales were slack because American publishers were competing with The Authorized Version. They felt they couldnt compete with that, so they began to call it the King James Version.This was in 1929. Do you remember from history what else happened in America in 1929?The stock market crash.Coincidence? I dont think so.So I do believe in what I have said on this thread about there being a connection between corrupt Bible versions and revival in America.Krispythat's cool bro, the Lord will expose whoever is wrong and correct us as He sees fit. As far as the stock market crash of 1929 i'm with you that it was no coincidence but the stock market had it coming anyway. i'm not sure how much the changing of the name authorized version to king james version had to do with it but it seems to me there was no dodging that bullet...love yu bro!bro Loveslavei have brought up the issue of the Lord contradicting His word and used the example of peter and that sheet and then ezekiel also...i've yet to hear anyone address this as being other than the Lord in His sovereignty contradicting His word. can someone explain that as the Lord leads?

Thanks Rookie!I was beginning to wonder if we would ever get back to the heart of worship. Revival is a breath of life. That breath can only come from God not texts and translations. Loveslave is right in quoting Jesus conerning His Words being spirit and life. The reason we need revival is that we are operating on spuradic fill ups instead of continuous supply.John 15:5-65 I am the vine , ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.ASVAbiding in the vine does not mean come to the church building and get a spiritual shot in the arm with the sermon or a visitation of God. Abiding in the vine is like allowing the Holy Spirit to connect a spiritual umbilical cord that transmits the life of God continuously.John 16:13-1513 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth , is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, (these) shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.14 He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare (it) unto you.15 All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he taketh of mine, and shall declare (it) unto you. ASVWhen will we see that we don't come to church to come into the presence of God. We bring the presence of God to the meeting because He is already in us. We don't have to hear the preacher to hear the voice of God. The voice of God is speaking to us continuously from His Spirit that dwells within.John 14:16-1716 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,17(even) the Spirit of truth : whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. ASVIf the Holy Spirit is given to be in us and is with us forever why do we sing about and pray for and expect a 'visitation?' When we experience the manifest presence of God in 'revival' did God 'show up?' Or is it that we finally showed up? God is there calling and waiting for us to turn around, to REPENT. As Paul said "he is not far from each one of us." Acts 17:27 ASV Our perception of the presence of God is not an issue of His proximity to us but of our ability to see through the veil of flesh. Holy Father open our spiritual eyes.Jeff

Brother Krispy I appreciate your reservation to judge. If I sound like I put more weight in experience than the Word then I did a poor job of communicating. I thought that I was communicating the words of Jesus are spirit and life. I have found that I can read text until I am blue in the face but until the Holy Spirit breathes understanding and insight into those passages I remain in need of a transfusion. I have many friends in ministry who focus all of thier attention upon esoteric spiritual encounters but have no real understanding of the Word of God. I find that the Holy Spirit takes the Logos that I diligently study and causes it to come alive, real, applicable in my life as I spend time allowing Him to lift the veil of my flesh.2 Tim 3:1616 Every scripture inspired of God (is) also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. ASVOn the contrary I value the Word of God highly for He became flesh and allowed that flesh to be slain that I might have life. Love you brother! Keep sharing those deep truths.Jeff

I've been out of the loup, so am behind several posts. I asked how Ravenhill strayed, and KingJimmy gave this reply: All I know is that in one of his sermons he refers to one of these individuals as a good friend, which is very shocking. I hope that you don't judge my theological position by those whom I call my "friends",or "my friend" or "dear friend" - 'cause - you'd have to call me a heretic for sure. Is that all the info there is on him?I must admit that Ravenhill is quite an unusual person. Many, including me, have had our lives transformed by him. He indeed was intrumental in revival - within my heart and many others. I once heard a message by a missionary in Africa who was transformed by Ravenhill. At the time he was serving in the Sudan, in the thick of danger, rescuing suffering Christians and their families from radical extremists - at a great risk to his life. I wept through his entire message. I have to admit that when I watched Ravenhill's interview I thought: "That man is grieving over something that has not happened, what he so longed for."I don't have a great interest in hearing too much more of his sermons and such. I also feel that for me personally it's time to move on. Yet, no doubt Ravenhill will still stir many more hearts, and thus revival IS and WILL continue to happen through him - it's like an underground movement. He just never got to see it that way. Only God knows where those who were influenced by Ravenhill will go in the future - and whom they will influence for Christ.Karl wrote: We have the power to have continous revival, but how many of us are willing to seperate ourselves from serving others and only give ourselves to the word of God and prayer? I am not, but ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I long to be. But you see, I am like alot of people that come to this site, I am caught up with the things of this world. Just busy busy busy, running to and fro the earth and going nowhere. Karl, I have spent too much time and energy feeling guilty because I'm not praying enough, or too much, I'm not fasting enough,...I'm on SI too much, I'm on SI not enough. I read the Bible not enough, I read the Bible too much, I spend not enough time with loved ones.... too much.... not enough.... blah blah blah. No matter what I do, it seems like I should be doing the other thing more. The guilt will ruin me if I don't get something straight. Thankfully God sets it straight: The SPIRIT can prompt me in and guide my life. I am called to rest in him enjoy his presence at all times. God's arm is not so short that he can't draw me into whatever is the need of the hour. I was once at a conference where a revival pastor said, "God has not led me to pray for revival for these meetings because he is not planning on doing that." Well, whatever you may think of that, I think that there is some comfort there. Just maybe a lot of prayer is fruitless and needlessly drains people because it is not God's timing, and the prayer wasn't prompted by God's Spirit. Remember Christ is our intercessor, and we unite with him in HIS burden. Could there be some truth in my thoughts here?Ironman said, out of the suffering which is ahead there will come out of it a Church without spot or wrinkle such as Christ is returning for (we're not about to be raptured till we're cleaned and purified so we will suffer persecution)and a people after the very heart of God. I wonder if many of the prophetic writigs of the OT are really talking about the final ingathering - just before the end. And is that the ultimate and most glorious revival - yet to come? Diane

hi, it is repulsive to me to read much more of this thread.bro. ravenhill did not have nail prints in his hands but he did have Jesus in his heart and a great love for the brethren. he started out in england as a revival tent preacher and was very flambouyant and successful. he moved with God and obeyed Him at great cost.he was invited to switzerland as billy grahams guest but preached in my home instead and God rewarded him. i was with him when a man offered him 2 million dollars in guarantee to move; his answer was can you guarantee the annointing also.he wanted to warn the world of the lion that lurks outside your door so that you would no be harmed.who are you pharisees who have not even been where God has moved mightely criticizing such a loving man who wouldn't criticize you. you argue over trifles that don't add up to nothing. Jesus said "i have not come to condemn the world but through me the world might be saved" that is the heart of Jesus. read john 14 through 18 and read it 3 more times and then post your drivel.jimp

sis RoadsignI wonder if many of the prophetic writigs of the OT are really talking about the final ingathering - just before the end. And is that the ultimate and most glorious revival - yet to come? i'm sure some of them do speak to the coming ingathering in addition to the ingathering of those days. i've not done an extensive study to prove that though. i do feel convinced however that the coming revival will be the most glorious as it will be the final one, the gathering of Christ's bride as it were. I was once at a conference where a revival pastor said, "God has not led me to pray for revival for these meetings because he is not planning on doing that." Well, whatever you may think of that, I think that there is some comfort there. Just maybe a lot of prayer is fruitless and needlessly drains people because it is not God's timing, and the prayer wasn't prompted by God's Spirit. Remember Christ is our intercessor, and we unite with him in HIS burden. Could there be some truth in my thoughts here?in reading let us pray by watchman nee the Lord has shown me that the way we should pray is according to what He requires, praying His will be done so sis diane you're on the money. a lot of prayer, is not really prayer but really us going before God with our own ideas and asking Him to check here and sign there and send us on our way. The Lord wants us to be involved with what He's doing and that requires a seeking of and praying for His will to be done.

a lot of prayer, is not really prayer but really us going before God with our own ideas and asking Him to check here and sign there and send us on our way. The Lord wants us to be involved with what He's doing and that requires a seeking of and praying for His will to be done.Thanks, Ironman, Even though I know this, there are times when it is good to be affirmed by a brother. I believe that the devil is constantly trying to erode our freedom in Christ, and pull us down into a tailspin of condemnation. I remember reading everything I could on prayer, and, I admit, it was awesome. But at one point I came to the reality that the books were not God's formula. They were the expressions of man's prayer journey with God. So naturally, they had their limitations. I cannot feel guilty because I don't pray more for revival. The world does not hinge on me but on God.And God is most capable of laying burdens on me, as he often does and has. But I must remain equally yoked with him, or I will end up carrying the burden alone. It's too much. Diane

Loveslave,Please do not go on with this Jesus and you possibly being Gnostic. It truly is Blasphemy.The Gnostic teachings tore down the Gospel of Christ that the apostles were teaching. They caused confusion amongst the new-born Christians: definitely a tool of Satan. Several of the epistles in our Bible are considered to be written to counter the false teachings of Gnosticism.Some background on Gnosticism is this:*A "know it all" religion*The leader taught that salvation only comes through a special or secret knowledge of God*The physical body is evil and does not matter*The either lived in extreme self denial or extreme self indulgence(The Bible Dictionary - Dockery, Godwin, Godwin - 2000)Please reconsider your remarks about Jesus being a Gnostic. It truly is Blasphemy - which I know that you did unintentionally.Also loveslave, please think heavily about not being as sarcastic. I understand that it is simply part of your personality (believe me, no one is more sarcastic that myself), but it may be best left out in a discussion of conflicting beliefs. Hope this has helped you out some.Love ya,DOI Pet 4:2

{Quote} Saltlicker, the original postHas anyone else come to a point in their relationship with God where they find themselves praying more for the movement of God than for the intimacy of God?………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….I’m not sure how long it was after being born again that I started praying for revival, but I know it wasn’t long. I remember that soon after conversion I remember praying for different people, sometimes my enemies, then praying for people in general like those in my home town or the nation I am from. The places I worked were often targeted also. Quite a few of the people that I prayed for years ago have come to the Lord.After a few years, because of being offended, I left the fellowship that I was in and started a gradual decline in prayer. After a time, I didn’t pray near as much and eventually did not witness to people. Up to this time I witnessed a lot. I would say now that I became backslidden, however, I did not go into the previous sins that the Lord had delivered me from. My prayer life was almost totally gone and I didn’t read the bible very much.After about 14 years of wondering around in this state of decline, the Lord brought a bunch of changes into my life. He brought me to a place that I wanted to be around Christians again. Since I was a truck driver at the time, soon I was seeking fellowship at truck stop chapels. One particular chapel had prayer and services everyday and is near to where I lived at the time, so I went there often. Once I was in fellowship again, my prayer life and bible reading started back up right away.What I have noticed is that when I was in a state of decline, I did not pray for revival at all. When my prayer life became intimate with God is when I started to pray for others and for revival again. I’ve noticed that when I have a closeness with the Lord, I pray for revival. Through these times, I have wept often for people that I haven’t seen for years, people from the town I grew up in, people I work with, and often my own country or other countries that I hear something about. Jesus wept over Jerusalem and that is what it reminds me of when I weep for others. I pray for revival in these peoples lives.I do not always pray with weeping or even pray for revival every time I pray but it seems that when I am in this brokenness and weeping for others is when my prayers get answered. I have had a hope of seeing the lost come to the Lord and to see this sin polluted land that I live in bring honor to the Lord ever since I've experienced the presence of the Lord. Things really look bad right now. How many of us on this forum have a faith like Joshua and Caleb and can say the Lord will surely give us this land? Can we believe God for this?

Brother Gary I appreciate your heart.Isn't the issue here regarding idolatry, what is the focal point or what do we value most? When our heart is set and focused on worship, love, adoration of the Father and the Son then the Father and the Son "make there abode with us." When we become one with the Father (His doing not ours) His values, goals, agendas, and passions are written into our hearts. Since His passion is reconciliation of those He created but are alienated from Him, then we will be moved by that passion to pray for their souls. We seek His face and through us He seeks more sons and daughters.Compasssion for the lost is the fruit that is produced by the Spirit of God as we surrender to His control and renovation. He becomes our focal point in worship and we become the instruments of His passion.Keep letting His passion for the lost fill you. Love you brother.Jeff

When we become one with the Father (His doing not ours) His values, goals, agendas, and passions are written into our hearts. Since His passion is reconciliation of those He created but are alienated from Him, then we will be moved by that passion to pray for their souls. We seek His face and through us He seeks more sons and daughtersGary and Jeff, Your words really spoke to my spirit. They help me differenciate between praying in the spirit and praying in the flesh. Perhaps "self" can be an idol too - when we are still abiding by the Old Covenant Law, and living by "shoulds" and "aught-tos". There is a huge difference between praying because we are supposed to, and prayer that flows directly from the heart of God through us. I have experienced both, and can tell the difference. Diane

sis diane you wroteroadsign wrote:

a lot of prayer, is not really prayer but really us going before God with our own ideas and asking Him to check here and sign there and send us on our way. The Lord wants us to be involved with what He's doing and that requires a seeking of and praying for His will to be done.Thanks, Ironman, Even though I know this, there are times when it is good to be affirmed by a brother. I believe that the devil is constantly trying to erode our freedom in Christ, and pull us down into a tailspin of condemnation. I remember reading everything I could on prayer, and, I admit, it was awesome. But at one point I came to the reality that the books were not God's formula. They were the expressions of man's prayer journey with God. So naturally, they had their limitations. I cannot feel guilty because I don't pray more for revival. The world does not hinge on me but on God.And God is most capable of laying burdens on me, as he often does and has. But I must remain equally yoked with him, or I will end up carrying the burden alone. It's too much. Diane

Hello;Being new to this on-line forum and not very smart it seems, I started a new thread to respond to this thread...it is in the lounge under "2 cents" I did not mean to start a new line of thought but to continue along this line of "Revival Idolatry. If anyone is interested it is there. Also it seems that my comments about quote from Krispy's response is causing some to be hurt. I apologize for this happening but am under the belief that if we all just agree with everyone than what is the substance of our discussion. Certainly I have no personal "thing" against anyone on this forum...I do however have many different thoughts than what seems conventional to most. I am touched and it brought tears to my eyes that some of the readers caught a glimpse of my heart towards the way things are...even amidst the poorly written words. I struggle so much with my walk in regards to how evil my own heart is and how callous I am to the Grace and Mercy of the Lord. If only we could connect with each other and see where we each have walked to make us who we are. I meant no harm. It truly is amazing and comforting to know that we are all in the same boat....WE JUST WANT COMMUNION WITH GOD, and our hearts will not be content until it is as it was in the Garden where we will walk and talk and enjoy the relationship God meant for us. Hopefully sparks can fly on-line and a fire could be caught...the Fire of the Most Holy. Blessings TS

Annie,I am a little confused, you know I don't support the WOF movement, right? Nevermind, I just reread your post and I got the context. Sorry about that.Murray

Annie,Thank you for the warm words. God bless you and may your posts continue to bless and encourage others.Murray

Linn--thank you for fixing my error and posting my thoughts on the right thread. If any one can relate to being "fired" up they may understand some of the comments I made. I do not exempt myself from any of the sins exposed...just awareness. To pretend I have the "answer" to the Body's woes is not my intent. To acknowledge things are way off course...regardless of all the ministry's that are doing great and wonderful humanitarian deeds is my intent. Maybe it takes no great spiritual inteligence to see what is wrong and I would agree it take much greater spiritual inteligence to offer a solution...but you have to at least see what is wrong before being able use your spiritual wisdom to offer solution. I stand firm on the bottom line what was written...judgment will put us in the desperate condition which will be the only true catalyst for our foolish human hearts to grasp the concept of Unity and then Revival...this is the order in which any corporate revival must take place.Look again at what some have read a hundred times when logging into this site. (top right of page)Quote from Stephen Olford 1904 to 2004--"It is my conviction that we are never going to have revival until God has brought the Church of Jesus Christ to the point of desperation" What is desperation and what in all the world could put the Western Church of this day into a place of desperation but Gods hand of Judgment coming to create only one of two options. Accept the fact that we are reprobate and live only because of the Mercy and Grace of God falling on our knees in worship though He slay us....or to become offended at the fact that all these "bad" as in judgments are falling on us and we renounce our faith. This is what will push people off the fence and into one camp or the other...rather than in the camp of in-between.I also am a firm believer in Christ coming back after the tribulation and that the tribulation itself will cause the true church to unify and become the spotless bride that will be made worthy by the hand of God to be given to Christ as a Bride. To think we will be whisked away in a rapture prior to His second coming is simply a slap in the face to Christ...can you imagine God giving a tarnished Church (read bride) to Christ. This is the shape of the church and it will be changed before Christ ever has a marriage ceremony. whoops....i am getting fired up again....there is so much to talk about with those seeking His face.BlessingsTSp.s TS was chosen as a nickname because that is what I am...a Truth Seeker.My real name Doug actually means "seeker of light"I have been this way for a long time and am happy God is big enough to handle the quirks that each of His children have.

bro TSit seems to me the Lord is showing us the same thing regarding the state of the Church and the need for revival and the devastation which must come before the desperation in which we will seek God. sometimes i think i'm losing it but i praise the Lord that when it is necessary He helps my unbelief by confirmation of what He has shown me through someone else to whom He has shown the same thing. bro when the judgement of the Lord comes indeed we shall know the sheep from the goats. many people will jump ship citing that this Christianity is too hard and not what they signed up for. Those who are indeed the called of God and sold out to Him will know His provision and know truly what it is not to give thought to what they shall eat nor what they shall wear. and bro i'm with you on how the Church must be purified and become without spot or wrinkle before being presented to Christ. As raggedy as we are you best believe that there is no way that we can be raptured without going through the fire of purification. a lot of people are also going to fall away when they get left behind but some will repent and know God as they ought. now look what you've made me done...i'm fired up too!!!Lord conform us to yourself and purify us with your fire.AMEN.

This will come again...Is. 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,\t“We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;\tOnly let us be called by your name,\tTo take away our reproach.” 2 \tIn that day the Branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious;\tAnd the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing\tFor those of Israel who have escaped. Is. 4:3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the LORD will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain. In ChristJeff

TS and Ironman keep speaking the truth in love. In fifteen years of speaking tribulation fire brings purity not many wanted to hear it. But all need to hear it.Jeff

[revival] "I WAS AT the ASBURY REVIVAL"

Mike; it is with respect and admiration for your personal testimony (I did a little digging) that I attempt a reply at what you have brought to the table by linking the “Asbury Revival” to this thread. I will start by quoting a part of your testimony that I’m sure resonates so well with any truly seeking after God. I do not use this to qualify or support my thoughts on revival just as a platform to jump from.“Now, it is a hunger to know Him, to know Jesus in all things with every breath, to know and do His will, to be obedient because of the love he has shown me. "We love Him because He first loved us." (1 John 14:19) I despair at phoniness, hypocrisy in religion, in Christianity, I just want something that is real, the truth no matter how painful...but what I really despair at is the fact that I can find all these things in myself, that they can still rear their ugly head, that my own motives need to be checked, that their is still much of self that needs to die.But, praise be to God! Their is hope! Jesus is alive, still interceding for the saints and the Holy Spirit to guide into all truth who also prays for us in our weakness. It has been a progressive salvation for me, many sign posts along the way and somewhere I took a right turn, don't have a particular date to look back on, but the seed had been planted, finally it took root, many watered* and one day it broke the surface. It was all God's doing and I don't think I will ever fully understand how it can be. But I love Him with all my heart, all my soul and all my mind, twisted as it is. This testimony so speaks what is on my heart....though I’m a wretch, Christ loved me anyway and loved me first...before I can love him, and let the Truth come no matter the pain it may bring.Also to Jeff, Jeff, Ironman and Linn...the words you guys shared in your replies gives great encouragement to me and to many that share a kindred spirit.We must first look at the term “revival” and give it some context I think. It is a term used so much that it seems to have lost a lot of its impact...at least on me. It is an awesome thing that the Body can go to a meeting and “feel” the presence of God and the great things that come from a person or many people involved in a meeting such as this is not to be diminished. However when (and the original thread title is revival idolatry remember) the meeting, or encounter with this feeling of glory is something that accomplishes little or is exclusive to a certain denomination or “non-denomination” as in the case of most recent revivals we should step back and look at what may be happening. Revival in some way can be brought right down to the salvation of a sinner when they are revived into a relationship with God that has always been available to him/her their whole life through the power and work of the cross. Putting revival on a larger scale we look at the Brownsville’s, Toronto’s and the Asbury type of revival and we see a certain segment of the Body being refreshed or possibly even reminded of what and who God is and have a sense of the presence of God, hopefully fueling them to “do” the work of the Kingdom by spreading the Word and Love of the Gospel. I would ask is this the only form we need of revival in America? What have been the long term benefits of these revivals? Have they turned the world upside down as the band of disciples did when they were revived? We have countless Christians going from meeting to meeting to be revived. I get sick when I hear and have even been to revivals or “encounters” with God where the “most favored” seem to get something the rest do not...such as gold flecked oil in there hands or some other “manifestation” of Gods presence. When all is said and done are we revived or just taking part in a structure of religiously overtoned self-gratification. When I read of the testimony’s linked to revivals and hear how “we had a face to face with God” I somehow can not fathom that a person would still be talking if they truly had a “face to face” with the Most Holy. As God hid himself from Moses (who seems to have had a great righteousness on him in comparison to me anyway) so that He would not kill him as He passed by why do we degrade or lower the bar on such a weighty matter of having a face to face with God. Being in the side of the body that is seeking at the least the gifts of the spirit for only 8 years and coming from a staunchly conservative Baptist background prior...i can say that we on this charismatic side lack the awe and reverence of God that is found in some of the more traditional denominations or at least their roots. If God showed up face to face in a group of 100 the odds are according to the Bible in favor of a 100 dead bodies to none living. How could our flesh stand up to even the shadow of the Most High? Yet we constantly hear and use the verbalization of the “presence” of God as if we were thermometers reading a temperature. I sometimes “feel” the presence of God but it has nothing to do with someone saying can you feel it? It is on the occasions when God is speaking through someone and it connects with my heart and reminds me of my weakness and His otherness, meaning He is not of humans but the Creator of them. The fear and awe of the Lord must come before a revival that I am interested in. Yes we must know His love; and if we look at the cross we should be well aware of it, but do we know to be fearful (as in respect of something so far beyond us...not fearful in the sense he could be “bad” or evil) of the Only One able to give us as a gift we do not deserve everlasting life or communion with Him or on the flip side everlasting torment and separation should we choose His judgment and not His mercy. I feel that I do not grasp the reality of eternity well enough to grasp the fear of the Lord...which is the beginning of Wisdom. It has helped for me to think of Hell like this;Picture being in torment, burning but not dying...in pain such as would kill a fleshly physical human being...with no relief not even a remembrance of ever being out of this pain. Then envision mountains of sand as far as you could ever see......at 1000 year intervals a bird flies into this place and takes a grain of sand away. After the millions and trillions of thousand year intervals it might take to remove all the grains of sand from all the mountains of sand those in Hell would be released they could still have hope and would rejoice at the sight of the bird every 1000 years. Clearly the Bible teaches that even after this amount of time went by it would be as no time at all compared to the big scheme of Eternity. Why would people not choose Christ? To speak more factually let’s look at the 1970 Asbury revival, which by the grace of God spawned over 135 additional “revival” throughout America. As it turned out did this revival stop the decay of America? Was it not but 3 years later we continued our slide of offence against the Holy God by legitimizing the murder of our own baby’s? Since that revival has the difference between the sins of the world and the sins of those professing Christ become more and more separate? Look at any statistic of just the most devastating sins not tolerated under the banner of the Lord; divorce, abortion, pornography, sexual promiscuousness and homosexuality...those claiming to be Christians participate in these in the same number as those of the world. If you move beyond the obvious into the areas of the heart...are we as Christians less selfish, less materialistic, less of a glutton of a gossiper etc etc than we were 40 years ago? What of this sin....selling anything with the name of the Lord on it for profit or personal gain? I ran across a verse I think it was in Corinthians which states you are not to sell the Word for personal gain. I guess we all need to look the other way when we see this for to acknowledge it gives a sense of where we really are. Do these revivals bring about people as in the Matthew 10 who raise the dead, heal the sick and cast out the demons. If there are any in America who do these things or claim to do them they are idolized as a celebrity and show true humiliation by living up to the celebrity status of being rich and famous. (sarcasm intended) Where is the one who with no money in his purse, no extra clothing to carry goes from place to place welcomed by the body in true humility “freely giving from what was “freely gained”? Preaching the Word with signs and wonders following because they were sent empowered by the Spirit not by human agenda?matt. 10:7-10As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[b]drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.Why is this so foreign to us? Today a (well known) preacher from whatever camp you want to name needs an entourage to accompany him, a portable walk-in closet to hold his suits and an expense account (gleaned from the profit of selling the name of the Lord) the size of Ft. Knox. This sounds very harsh even to me as I write it but tell me it is otherwise and getting more so instead of less this way.We need not another Preacher (look at the wealth of sermons on just this site) we need not another revival at least of the type seen over the recent years (though they have some worth as is evident), we need God to “send” someone, anyone (check out the bio’s again on the disciples) with power on high to do what they did in Matt. 10. Then we will see the 250,000 christian denominations dissolved into a unified though smaller (many will bail when the purification comes) Body which will then be shaped, purified and made Holy enough to be given as a Bride to King Jesus. Since a young boy I have been trying to figure out what the key is that will turn Gods heart to “send” as he did in the New Testament....I still do not know. What I do know and am learning more and more is that the types of Revivals that are being promoted as God visiting these meetings complete with an “Open Heaven” guaranteed on the brochure is in my opinion simply going along with the crowd and admiring the Emperors clothes too afraid to say he has none.Rev.14—To the Church in Laodicea:The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of all God has made, says this: I know what you do, that you are not hot or cold. I wish that you were hot or cold! But because you are lukewarm---neither hot, nor cold---I am ready to spit you out of my mouth. You say, “I am rich, and I have become wealthy and do not need anything.” But you do not know that you are really miserable, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I advise you to buy from me gold made pure in the fire so you can be truly rich. Buy from me white clothes so you can be clothed and so you can cover you shameful nakedness. Buy from me medicine to put on your eyes so you can truly see.If any would like to study a modern day disciple and the cost of what it means check out Brother Yuns book, “The Heavenly Man” amazing how someone like Brother Yun can go through the experiences he has for the kingdom while we Americans jump from “revival” to “revival” hoping for a little of the gold flecked oil to be on our palms when we leave. Judgment will bring about the circumstances that will be the catalyst for a true Revival...I ask the Lord to hasten the day, and to purify my putrid heart so I might live through it to bring some Glory to the King.For any Mark Heard fans out there this is an awesome song with lyrics that help me know there are others who feel this frustrated about their Christian walk. I know that I am too weak and insignificant apart from God to change anything even my own heart...I pray God has Mercy and does it for me and you...soon.Album---Eye of the Stormsong---The Pain That Plagues CreationAs this planet falls around the sunTrapping us in its orbitCreation groans in unisonLike a race of frightened orphansThe darkness of this raging stormIs covering up our portalsBut a yearning for the lightIs bourne in the heart of every mortalDay to day we acheWith the pain that plagues CreationNight to night we lie awakeAnd await its restorationHeaven knows our lonely waysHeaven knows our sorrowsAnd Heaven knows things that we don’t knowAnd the Joy of eternal tomorrowsBut through this glass we dimly seeThis world as it was madeOh and the good we knowMust surely flowFrom the heart of a kind CreatorSo hold on in this restless ageAnd do not fear your shadowYour alternating tears and praiseAre prayers that surely will matterAnd day to day we acheWith the pain that plagues CreationNight to night we lie awakeAnd await its restorationAmen

TS wrote:"We need not another Preacher (look at the wealth of sermons on just this site) we need not another revival at least of the type seen over the recent years (though they have some worth as is evident), we need God to “send” someone, anyone (check out the bio’s again on the disciples) with power on high to do what they did in Matt. 10. Then we will see the 250,000 christian denominations dissolved into a unified though smaller (many will bail when the purification comes) Body which will then be shaped, purified and made Holy enough to be given as a Bride to King Jesus. Since a young boy I have been trying to figure out what the key is that will turn Gods heart to “send” as he did in the New Testament....I still do not know. What I do know and am learning more and more is that the types of Revivals that are being promoted as God visiting these meetings complete with an “Open Heaven” guaranteed on the brochure is in my opinion simply going along with the crowd and admiring the Emperors clothes too afraid to say he has none."TS, I wish that this is all that it would take but the truth of the matter is that Jesus lived that way and so did the twelve apostles, yet not only did there remain divisions based on doctrine within the religious community of Jesus day but these leaders refused to belief that the source of these miracles and messengers was God. Their stubborn hearts became so full of hate that they demanded Jesus death, cheered at the death of James, and participated themselves in the death of Stephen. Should we expect any less today.I wrote a reply that relates to this on Linn's post Beautiful Gate that you may want to read.Keep seeking the Father and praying with Jesus that the Father will give us unity among the brethren.Jeff

Hi TS,I find a great deal of agreement with much of what you have expressed here and yet just as much, a lot of confusion.We must first look at the term “revival” and give it some context I think.That is without a doubt an understatement. To that effect was a partial reason for bringing up this most recent 'revival' that was linked. Because our tendencies are often to be the ones who do the determining and labeling, the quantitative expectations, the results ... We set the barometers and dictate to our own standards that which constitutes the outcome, let alone the reasons for what ultimately is something that only the Lord can do of His own choosing. That is a bit long winded way of saying maybe just this; Found this rather 'quiet' instance just recently worthy of mention for the same reasons that you are espousing, that it was noticeable by the conspicuous absence of many of the 'bells and whistles' that might otherwise draw the curious, the entertainment driven, the seeking of signs and wonders, in your own words;We have countless Christians going from meeting to meeting to be revived. I get sick when I hear and have even been to revivals or “encounters” with God where the “most favored” seem to get something the rest do not...such as gold flecked oil in there hands or some other “manifestation” of Gods presence. When all is said and done are we revived or just taking part in a structure of religiously overtoned self-gratification.Taking off on that note a couple of things that I might mention here as well. Am unsure of just how much of what is available here on this site you have availed yourself of. By and large the 'types' if I may of those who participate here would side with you wholeheartedly in the excess's, the spurious, the counterfeit ... a simple search on Brownsville, Toronto would give a broad range of thought towards all this and no sense in re-opening much of past dialouge.Your original question in the first posting while having some merit surely in the same excess's also brought about the question to mind in "even those on this site". "Idolatry"? Frankly, I think that may apply in a general sense perhaps in the collective conscience of Christendom as the way you have been terming it by your definition and I don't think your definition there is far off at all. But here, I don't think that definition fit's and I appeal back to just what all you have absorbed of this site.Perhaps what I am appealing to here is, it's just not that simple. Yes, one of the main reasons Greg started this site is to focus on revival. But of what sort? Of what ... substance? I don't think it a reach whatsoever that the focus is predominantly a look backward, at history, at past revivals, at men of God who were used to suit the Lords purposes for those times, for His reasons and His outcomes. Finding this difficult to express correctly...There is much to glean from here. It is an impossibility to peg 'us' as 'Charismatics' as it would be to label the whole 'non-denominational'.Much has been said to this effect as well.I would ask is this the only form we need of revival in America? That is problematic as well and continues to creep up here, this is far broader than just America. Greg is from Canada for one thing and a glance around these parts finds brethren from all over the world. To address this differently, if there is a place that needs a revival at this moment in time might it be Uganda ? Give that a read brother, there can be a whole different perspective given to us all by things happening beyond our borders.We need not another Preacher (look at the wealth of sermons on just this site) Again, unsure what you have gleaned here from the messages given, the articles available, the topics discussed, but they are vast and cover a multitude of Gods Word and Gods thought if I may. There is untold riches here that have been of such a help to the Body that we will never know their effect on the silent masses that have learned and grown by them, if the few that have expressed their appreciation, the changes wrought in them, the compulsion to become open air preachers, to dig deeper into Gods Word, to intercede as intercessors ... to be made disciples, if just the few are any indication, a sampling (not a boasting) of what the Lord has done in and through all this; Email Encouragements! - IIwe need not another revival at least of the type seen over the recent years (though they have some worth as is evident), we need God to “send” someone, anyone (check out the bio’s again on the disciples) with power on high to do what they did in Matt. 10. Then we will see the 250,000 christian denominations dissolved into a unified though smaller (many will bail when the purification comes) Body which will then be shaped, purified and made Holy enough to be given as a Bride to King Jesus. Since a young boy I have been trying to figure out what the key is that will turn Gods heart to “send” as he did in the New Testament....I still do not know. What I do know and am learning more and more is that the types of Revivals that are being promoted as God visiting these meetings complete with an “Open Heaven” guaranteed on the brochure is in my opinion simply going along with the crowd and admiring the Emperors clothes too afraid to say he has none.Am with you on the "I don't know" department and the promoting is practically a guarantee that there wont be any.Some other random musings from all this.Have begged off this and shelved a lot of what I wasn't quite sure I even wanted to express in reading through all of it. Felt very much the Lord would have me to be silent for awhile on many things. Much of this has been sitting just under the surface I will admit, not stewing over it, but that it would often come repeating in bit's and pieces.Found a curious and again sad compulsion that can come about here from time to time and do not want to overstate it as much as to hopefully just cause some reflection.KingJimmy:I think this is perhaps why it seems Ravenhill was led astray near the end of his life by false prophets like Paul Cain and such. I mean, my God, by the end of his life he was pretty much singing the praises of these false prophets and you can see him being manipulated by them all throughout his Aneheim series on revival. They were able to flatter his desire, likening him unto Simeon of Luke 2, saying that before he would die that he would see the revival he longed for. Sadly, Ravenhill never saw the revival he longed for. This is just horrible. Ravenhill needs no defending but this is another case of the same penchant that often arises here; It is either the attempt at lobotomizing live men's thoughts or tomb raiding dead men's souls. That is a huge assumption, especially if you are deriving this primarily from a moment in time towards the end of his life, to cast a pall over this mans long service with the Lord. Shameful. Haven't we been over this all before? On top of it, I think if we simply focus on "revival" we will have a tendency towards romanticism. I love Ravenhill and am greatly indebted to him, but I think he tended to suffer from this problem as well. Read almost any of his books where he talks about prophets, and this will be evident if you actually examine the Scriptures closely. Prophets weren't God's crisis men for crisis situations. Such might preach, but it's bad theology. To take an idiom and make it a construct...Find it very difficult to hear these sort of things, these criticisms. Re-read these things and look at just what it is you are addressing. Is it not a slight on his character that comes from these assumptions?I do recognize that you stated I love Ravenhill and am greatly indebted to him but in the same breath ... ?It is puzzling that to do the quick word association with Leonard Ravenhill, the word that comes first to mind is not "revival" but "prayer". I can't but wonder if this isn't a case of 'finding only that which you are looking for.' What if you were to listen again with the ears attunded to the cracking of his voice and the beating of his heart? Granted, Len's style ... unorthodox would be an understatement and to hold him up any different than any other saint is absurd. Just as absurd though is the comments made regarding 'milk and meat' and the intimating of having 'graduated' Ravenhill. To make the statement denies the reality. For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 1Co 3:4. Besides, a great deal of this measuring of the 'size' of revival that he sought and that it never came to pass ... my goodness are we not back to stipulating outcomes again? Isn't this on the level of waste of Stephens great sermon that brought him down under a hail of stones? It may have produced the conviction and goads of Saul\\Paul and that could be the greatest revival that ever took place, but still... I realize I am mixing metaphors here. Moses never saw the promised land after all that he went through, but he certainly did see more than the beauty of land flowing with milk and honey ultimately.I am somewhat sorry here. This is not a diatribe or anger, don't have a bone to pick with anyone and it is difficult to not address some of these things without making them appear more than just questions to ask and to think on. I do realize that there is a predominant bent towards the sensational and seeking the gift's more than the Giver in our day, so much of that has been addressed right here in all these available resources and from the sharing of others that have grown weary of it all.Personally speaking, my prayer and plea is for the last great 'revival' summed up in the next to the last verse of Rev.Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Coming full circle. There is some great messages here on revival that might broaden the horizons and perspective. Some that are hardly even know about, I know there is a really good posting that a brother put together towards this end, will see if I can dig it up.But to answer the question broadly here, "Idolatry" and revival, I don't think so. Judging by numbers if we must, a glance at the topics in the forum would bear out something else. Seems the "Idol" is a 'couch'. ;-)

Mike, thanks for taking the time to read/comment off what I wrote. I think I understand why you are a moderator...you do it well. I sense an underlying frustration at what is written and very likely justifiably so if you take it at the "word" value you see in print. Your responses are nothing but full of the Love of the Father for His body. I hope you will acknowledge we all are different parts of One Body and as such have different functions...I did not ask to be the way I am and constantly asking God to make me into what He wants (hoping it is different from what i seem to be). It seems that what I write is often critical and unclear and I will be the first to admit that it likely is. However my heart is not meaning to be that way...it is simply grasping in the dark at something that seems so close yet always out of reach. I hold this site in extremely high esteem and have spent a fair amount of time...listening to many sermons...reading many sermons and trying to act upon what I have digested. Praise God for the testimonies of those touched.If I have an issue it is with the disparity of the messages that (seemingly) come from the One God. Not specific to the messages on this site but to the Body at large. I mean by this that they cannot all be right...on the simple yet profound gap involved with the thought towards the gifts of the Spirit moving in the present day one need look no further than comparing John MaCarthur and Brother Yun. Which message is right? And more importantly what do the differences really mean? If you go to MaCarthurs college web site (The Masters College) you will find that if you believe in the present day workings of Holy Ghost you have no business going to this college. My point again is who cares what you believe...WHAT IS THE TRUTH?This is the frustration vented by my comment that we need not another preacher...for currently most are speaking just words...some agreeing, some diametrically opposed. Give us one man who can do the miracles we as believers are commissioned to perform and watch the unsaved repent and fall in love with God. Being brought into the Kingdom of God and not of Denomination or "belief". You cannot fake creative miracle that replace limbs that are not currently there...you cannot manipulate a quadriplegic into getting out of his wheel chair and walking. These signs and wonders are our rightful inheritance as followers/believers in Christ. WHY ARE WE NOT ABLE TO WALK IN THEM?... maybe because we tickle our ears with all kinds of garbage that comes from the human mind/mouth. Scripturely we need to judge those in the body...not those in the world and then hold accountable what is said and done by these and all "leaders". I am not in the least able to describe what that looks like, only that it must be done. Mark 16:15-20 says:15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." 19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. How does a John MaCarther warrant a place as a leader in the Body if this scripture be true and he not repent of his stance on the movement of the Spirit? If the Holy Ghost is active and a current day phenomena then how can it be preached that He is not and expect no repercussions? In my mind it (the division) has brought the Body of Christ almost to a position of civil war on just this one subject. And it absolutely should be faced and confronted. I am trying to bring awareness to the strife within the Body not just to pick on one person. Judgment must first come to the Body...what can we offer the world without the purification? What can we offer to the "sheep" withing the Body until we are One with each other? What is being done about this strife? How can we the sheep be led by leaders who have no business leading? or are leading with false teachings...on this issue one side or the other is false there is no getting around this...the question not looked at much is how important is the issue? The same is true of the abuse within the Charismatic side as I have noted in previous psots. I cannot even explain it seems what I mean to say. Why would non-christians want to join any portion of a House divided against itself? We need the Truth spoken in power with signs and wonders as confirming evidence of Gods approval. This will end the discussion of who is right and who is wrong or more importantly who we should follow. What I am proposing next is a radical thought but my thought none the less. I am critical of hypocrisy and choose to expose it in the Body and confess it and repent of it as God teaches/disciplines me and makes me aware of it in my own life.The Bible was not written for scholars but for the common man of which I am a prime candidate. With this in mind if the Bible says something it should not be disposed of through the intellect or because we cannot understand it...we need revelation from the Spirit not humanly thought up "reasons" for things. I have recently run across a quote from a Carl Jung described as an eminent thinker and psychologist of the 1930's. His take on Criticism is this:Criticism has “the power to do good when there is something that must be destroyed, dissolved or reduced, but it is capable only of harm when there is something to be built.”At this point in the Western Church of this day and age it is time to destroy the religious system of which WE ARE A PART OF (obviously in my opinion...which is of equal importance to God as is any in His kingdom...but of no more value than any in His Kingdom as well---true value being based solely on the origination of the opinion...or more plainly, Is it Gods opinion as well?)---agai,n it is time to destroy this system of religion and start over. Then it will be time to take away the criticism and build up what end up being the true Church of the Remnant. As when Christ first came did he not destroy and make known the absolute corruption of the religious structure of the day and take his ministry to the dregs of society? What makes us think that it will not be the same as time runs down and the Day of the Lord approaches? This current system indoctrinated with the ways and wisdom of man is critically flawed and failing...you were somewhat confused at what I wrote (understandable so). I am totally confused by the church of this day and place. I speak of America often, mostly because I am in America...I cannot speak of what I do no know. I have heard Brother XU (sp) of China speak in person of what it is like in China (and watched the apathy reflected in the response to his testimony from the western Christian)...I have read the testimony of Brother Yun in Heavenly Man and what I see or understand from them is that it is not complicated over there it is simply torturous. In other words the confusion does not come from the Body but from the Devil as he tries to trip us there plans for the spreading of the Good News. In the Heavenly man it is notated that divisions amidst the House Church movement did not come until the Western denominations started pushing their agendas with the groups they were sending support to within China...this is a strong statement. Here it seems that we (the Body) work in cohorts with the Devil to keep the masses of Christians confused, demoralized and impotent or on the other spectrum fat, lazy and impotent. With all the “Scholars” in the Christian world why is there so much dis-unity? Why don’t they publicly discuss the differences they have with each other...pray publicly together beseeching the God they all profess as Master and Father to clarify the differences. This was the example to follow as in the disputes between Peter and Paul. The main and possibly root reason is Pride and we all know who the Father of Pride is and it is not the Father of Christ.The above statement on destroying the “system” is something I am sure will upset many if many read it. I re-read it and cannot change it. We have lost our way. It is not a slight adjustment that needs to take place it is a re-invention. I believe that the judgment soon to come will make this happen. The system will continue to exist it will be the “One World Religious Structure” prophesied will come in the end. The true remnant the Bride will move out of the structure and into only God knows what but it will be real it will be true and it will be purified as having bought gold and white garments spoken of to the Laodician church. in Revelations. It is not commonly known in the Body as we are mostly illiterate about the end times...but consider that America is not listed as a player in the end times arena. What does this mean? Could it mean that we The Superpower of the day lose the position currently held in the world? How could this be? We must come off our high horse and know who raises the nations and who brings them down...in the matter of a day we could become irrelevant to the world. As we are not in the end time prophesy this is exactly what will happen...the question is how, how soon and who will step out of the catastrophe and walk in the power of the Lord?Well I am sure I have confused any who read this...I am sorry. I feel a burning inside me whenever I start reading or writing on this site. I am going to be bold in what I say...wrong or right. I am appreciative of any criticism or disagreement. It will sharpen me. I do not pretend to know...I only speak what is on my heart, God knows who/what has put it there.Mike I am amazed at your restraint and heart towards the Body...this site and the time you put into it is Heroic. This site is truly an instrument for the Body. Please try to find my heart in what I have written...your quote:Personally speaking, my prayer and plea is for the last great 'revival' summed up in the next to the last verse of Rev.Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.This quote is all I intended to put on this reply and a hearty agreement to it.Time will tell if what I wrote is worth anything. Life seems to be a fire and the older I get the hotter it burns. Peace and Love from the Father is my wish to you and all who profess the name of our Lord, TS

Mike,Thank you for your insightful letter. First I would like to thank you for defending Leonard Ravenhill and the work he did. I don't see how anyone could "outgrow" Ravehill's teachings. I especially liked the idol of today is the couch comment. As long as your motivation to see revival is centered in Christ and his glory, it will never become an "idol". Murray

Annie--thank you very much for your kind words. I actually did not feel that there was anything between us that we needed to clear up. I'm sorry it felt like a gang up on you. I am used to having people disagree with what I say a lot of the time, that is the beauty of this thing called "open forum". No hard feelings on my part for sure and I am blessed by your welcome and have no intention of leaving unless I am asked to do so which I pray does not happen. I do want to be refined as I participate...and this interactive chatting is a very different thing for me. It is hard to convey feeling when writing is not your strongest point and this type of communication has such a sharp edge to it.I know I am very wordy...I guess I am knocking you out of this much coveted spot:)I actually went back through the posts to refresh myself on what initiated the heated responses. While doing this I did find something that caught my eye...and reminded me to say that I (now knowing what it is) can empathize with the disdain shown for the WOF, and certainly would not want to throw salt on a wound. Naming and claiming in "ministry" is such a shallow and self-centered teaching that does nothing except put money in the "preachers" pocket and create extreme pain once the "sheep" has realized he has been "fleeced". To move into another possible discourse, Forgive me ahead of time but a quote you put in one of your posts stated this:"Growth comes with desire, "blessed is he who hungers and thirsts after righteousness for he shall be FILLED." But no where will you ever find that HE said, to sit around and "wait" .... He said, GO and DO the works that HE did and wants to do THROUGH us.Please see, that the sheep are eating themselves to death in the fields and need to move."I agree wholeheartedly with the growth comes from desire...but the desire itself is a gift of God. If He did not plant the desire for Him in us we simply would not desire Him at all.As for the stop wait and pray phrase...I have to put these versus out because they are my weakest point...I hate waiting/watching and praying for any length of time. My strenght is in action...currently I am being made to do just this; watch and pray...I am not doing it well.However their are versus to back it up:Matthew 26:41" Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:40-42 " Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Mark 14:37-39 The context is the Garden of Gethsemane and the disciples falling asleep instead of wathcing and praying as Christ directed. Is that the end of the lesson? Or is their a parallel to our christian walk and the directive to watch and pray...not just go and do. Last the sheep eating each other comment is true...but what does this reflect but poor leadership or putting ourselves (the sheep) into the wrong fold. If Christ was allowed to lead, we would not have the mess called the "church" we now have. My question is how do you really go about letting Him lead? There seems to be as many answers to this as their are denominations. Is he really a leader that wears a different "hat" when he steps from one church to the next blessing and confirming all the differences within His own Body? Blessings and His peace to you Annie as well.TS

Hi TS,Well done brother. Getting the gist of these things overcomes so much, namely that we are discussing our thoughts and testing, measuring, sifting everything, clarifying and further explaining, correcting. "Playing the ball, not the man."If I have an issue it is with the disparity of the messages that (seemingly) come from the One God. Not specific to the messages on this site but to the Body at large. I mean by this that they cannot all be right...on the simple yet profound gap involved with the thought towards the gifts of the Spirit moving in the present day one need look no further than comparing John MacArthur and Brother Yun. Which message is right? And more importantly what do the differences really mean? If you go to MaCarthurs college web site (The Masters College) you will find that if you believe in the present day workings of Holy Ghost you have no business going to this college. My point again is who cares what you believe...WHAT IS THE TRUTH?Have often ed dwelt on that question in the broad sense as you stated which message is right? It may well be that the answer will always be a bit elusive. Here's a bit of musing from yesterdays notes;One of the great things about this place is the confounding of so much, the demolishing of so much presumption, the dismantling of 'denominational' constructs. It is a wonderful paradox to brood on.How far different, to take just a cross section, is T. Austin Sparks from Keith Daniel, from Ron Bailey, from Art Katz, from David Wilkerson, from A.W. Tozer, from Zac Poonen, from Leonard Ravenhill? From Finney, from Wesley, from P.T Forsyth, from Watchman Nee, from Oswald Chambers, from C.H. Spurgeon, from Chip Brodgren, from Robert Murray McChenne, from Brother Lawrence, from Brother Andrew, from Paris Reidhead, from Ravi Zacharias, from Ray Comfort, from Ray Stedman, from R.A. Torrey, from Martin Lloyd Jones, from George Whitefield, from Stephen Kaung? Andrew Murray... MuellerThe 'easy' and perhaps even glib answer is, well, they all love the Lord or they are still brothers and all that is true. But I believe there is something intangible and further buried deep down than that which can be expressed easily. It is in part and maybe large part, character and just as well, personality. The above out-take there came about from a snippet out of T. Austin Sparks comments in another posting;Personality.I repeat, then, that it was the glory of His personality as the Son of Man; for, almost in association with that, He spoke of His coming again as being 'the coming of the Son of Man in the glory of the Father'. This, so far as His perfecting was concerned, was not something that took place on the Mount. The Mount was the mark of the CONSUMMATION of His perfecting. I do not mean in the matter of sin - sinfulness or sinlessness - but the perfecting of His character, the perfecting of that inner man which we call personality. Personality is a strange thing, an elusive thing, something that you cannot get hold of, but you cannot mistake; it is THE person within - the man inside. Now, He, in that inner life of His, had worked out this whole matter of God's pleasure, God's satisfaction, through His life. There was the Divine approval at His baptism in similar words, indicating, probably, that His thirty years were approved; certainly indicating that the step that He was now taking, right out into public, with the Cross accepted (for His baptism certainly implied that) was approved. That brought the word from Heaven: 'My Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased'. ~T. Austin SparksMen Whose Eyes Have Seen the KingHad really saved these up for a different reason (or season) but maybe it is worth the expression after all, here's the rest;Mix them up in any order and add in how many others, and pardon the unintentional expression, what a band of mis-fits! It is a wonderful blind ignorance that I could hardly tell which particular labeling by 'denomination' a great deal of these 'worked out of', the point being .... who cares! But it is much broader and all encompassing if we might allow ourselves to take note beyond the mere lip service of this central truth and I will dare to utter it; "Unified"Just from this random sampling. The timelessness alone something to grasp. Across cultures and generations, circumstances. Add in the persecuted and the missionaries; Livingstone and Wurmbrandt, K.P Yohannan, Hudson Taylor, Rolland Allen, the names listed in Foxe's Book of Martyrs ... Running these partially from memory, partially from the ever growing collection.The collective thought and the marked differences of particulars, secondary they be. Mix in the saints. Paul and Moses, Peter and Elijah, John and Joseph, Mark and Issiaha, Luke and Jeremiah. Stephen and Phobe, Mary and Mary's, Titus and Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, Tertius, Gaius, Epaenetus, strange names, 'obscure' names. Dare to throw your own hat into the mix. The 'great company of witness's'. Your heritage, your history, your family.What's the point? Not all of these names are necessarily 'here'. Some have been salvaged and still speak audibly. Some written, some both. Some by extension and recommendation. Some the scriptures themselves. At one point in our lives, they were all foreign to us."And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."Mar 3:32-35This is what makes this more than just some 'place'. Another in the mix of many? It is distinct in intangibles, in a variety of expression. It is a schooling and a disciple making venture, a seminary of the Spirit ... I believe it to be a 'revival' in and of itself, more than even the pointing to and longing for something of the sort and substance of those in the past. Is it because it tends to dwell on all these 'old', 'dead' 'past' saints? In a word. Yes! Precisely!But it is not a certain romanticism or nostalgia. It is not a thousand things. It is certainly not the trend of the day, the aptly put "chronological snobbery" that would put this in it's own category and lock it up as 'past'.Coming here, what, 3 years ago now? Hardly a few of these names I knew, including those in the scriptures. By that I do mean 'knew' or 'know' in the deepest aspect of that meaning. Not so much 'personally', though in certain ways the gleaning of thought brings a certain familiarity. Members of this forum, having come to know by all the interaction and fellowship. Circumstances of our lives shared, the many prayers... But to appeal back to the verse in Matthew; "Behold my ______"His.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Well, that's quite a mouthful and I am unsure just how well the thought translates here. I think what a large part of what you are suggesting is already taking place brother. There is always going to be a disagreement on any number of particulars. John MacArthur might well be a great case in point. I am very indebted to him for being one of the voices that caused me to think about a lot of what I was suppressing while being taken up with the whole WOF\\Prosperity, 'easy believism' of our day. Something was amiss and I knew it somehow and like many that first hear of their favorite teacher\\preachers being questioned the auto reflex kicks in and the defending starts up, it took some time to process and come to grips with.I guess I continue to be of the mind that nothing is that easy anymore. Confusion abounds. It is possible to glean from all of the above saints mentioned and not have to be taken with the particulars. I can both empathise with a MacArthur that finds the abuse of so called 'gift's of the Spirit' as they are largely understood and defined in this day as just so much hogwash to put it bluntly as I can with the fact that I would never begin to believe that none exist or that they have since 'ceased'. What it truly boils down to is, are they authentic? Genuine? And maybe the biggest question in the circles that run away with this heavy emphasis on them ('signs and wonders' not to be excluded) is, does it matter? Seemingly, the answer is by and large, no. It is overwrought with a very disinterested, casual sloppiness, carelessness comes to mind. Rarely are the 'prophets' or their 'prophecies' called on the carpet, the majority of them are met with a shrug and a forgetfulness... How many of the things uttered in the last 20 years have ever come to pass? Most things are explained away or pushed out into an undetermined future. Think it was Oswald Chambers who may have summarized it wholesale; "Prove it." The lack of remorse and shame, the flippancy and ease of speaking in the Name of the Lord, it's incredible and frankly frightening.That's quite a bit and would be sure this is a lot of preaching to the choir. One trailing thought came from a brother here awhile back elsewhere and the starkness of honesty found a similar appreciation, paraphrased;"I don't know what the Lord is doing."Me neither. And I am not sure it is really 'signs and wonders' of the sort we might think is needed.Without a doubt though, whatever they may be, let them be authentic, let them be tried and tested, undeniable, proven. Changed dispositions and transformed lives are indistinguishable proofs, without argument and what is always agreeable to the same Spirit that dwells in us and to those who have gone before us. It's the only unity there is and really the only 'wonder' ultimately.Appreciate your Spirit brother, am stumbling around in the dark just as well.Edit* I know I am very wordy...I guess I am knocking you out of this much coveted spot:)Nice try ;-)

Hi again...and I appreciate the grace to have said what I did with no condemnation laced in your reply.this quote from you crsschk is exactly right. (to me)"What it truly boils down to is, are they authentic? Genuine? And maybe the biggest question in the circles that run away with this heavy emphasis on them ('signs and wonders' not to be excluded) is, does it matter? Seemingly, the answer is by and large, no. It is overwrought with a very disinterested, casual sloppiness, carelessness comes to mind. Rarely are the 'prophets' or their 'prophecies' called on the carpet, the majority of them are met with a shrug and a forgetfulness... How many of the things uttered in the last 20 years have ever come to pass? Most things are explained away or pushed out into an undetermined future. Think it was Oswald Chambers who may have summarized it wholesale; "Prove it." The lack of remorse and shame, the flippancy and ease of speaking in the Name of the Lord, it's incredible and frankly frightening." The only addtional thing I see to be thought about is how does this train of thought or "easy accountability" work or apply to the non-chrismatic camp? If you don't move in the gifts...how can you go wrong?It is indeed an outragous thing to speak the "Word" of the Lord and be deluded at best and deceptive at worst. Most people would rather be safe than sorry and hence the conservative world of Christianity. We (humans) think the Lord is asleep because He does not send the lightning...making us even more brazen in our mockery of His Word. He is slow to anger but His Justice will come. Thank God for the Cross and repentance.Blessings,TS

Dorcas,my thoughts to your question of my quote--"His justice will come" is exemplified by this verse for one...."Who is this who comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah (capital of Edom), this One who is glorious in His apparel, traveling in the greatness of His strength?-- "I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save." 2 Why is Your apparel red, and Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? 3 "...I have trodden them in My anger, and trampled them in My fury; their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, and I have stained all My robes. 4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart..." (Isa. 63:1-4)This speaks to the end when Christ comes and squelches the "rebellion" if you will. There is a whole end time scenario I posted on another thread...a perspective that I hold to be true. It is very long and comprehensive as to the Justice that will be brought when Christ is King not only in name but actually on the earth in His resurrected body. (it is under the scripture and doctrine thread...called "Pre-Tribulation Rapture") your quote: "I've always thought that the cross of Christ was His justice"I tend to think of this as His Mercy or more aptly put Mercy was crucified that day. For as Tozer puts it in his "Attributes of God" book. Mercy is not something God has...likening it to a commodity that he doles out. Mercy is what He actually is. Before Mercy was needed (by the fall of man for instance) Mercy still was.His Justice or "Justice" itself as His name would actually be in this train of thought. Is the attribute that is coming when He is here as King. Without the Blood of the Cross...or Mercy...there will be only Justice.Blessings,TS

Isn't personal revival not the same as being totally submitted to God? We can never do this out ourselves as this is totally opposing the wants of the flesh. We need to set our minds on God and His wants, neglecting our own if they conflict with God.Its almost frustrating that I can know about revival and what to do but am so unable to get to it. Seems there is alot self left which doesn't want to die.Seeking Gods face and with His grace getting rid of self is not idolatry. If everyone would do this we would have revival in no time. Unless I will be 'revived' myself I cannot effectivly pray for revival for others. (alto this does not mean that I can not or should not pray for them now)As little I understand of revival myself I do know that we cannot 'create' one ourselves. We can only submit to God and let Him do the work.Sorry if this goes out the discussion line, but I really felt I had to post this.

Hello my name is Jubilee, I think what needs to be understood here is that God never gives us His attributes outside of Himself. He doesn't give us love, peace or joy but as we abide in Him His love, peace and joy flow through us. Love is a person, joy, and all the attibutes of God are a person. We have them as long as we are connected to the source. If we abide in Him we walk in these things because they walk in us. This is why when we behold Him we become like Him. We are changed from glory to glory into His image as we behold Him. The way I understand this is that if we focus on anything we become like it. If we drench ourselves in the stock market that is all we can talk about, If we study horses or food that is our conversation, but if we focus on God and His word and allow it to abide in us it will flow from us as well. As we take in more and more of Him He will spill forth to others. In Him we live and move and have our being. This is why those who watch violence and perversion go on to do such aweful things at times.God wants us saturated with Him and we do that by abiding in the vine.blessing and peace unto youjubilee :-) PS.I would also like to say that just like when you go into a dark room and turn on the light the darkness is still present, but it is swallowed up in the surpassing greatness of the light, so are we in our walk with the Lord. We are flooded with His light as long as we walk in His light but when we step back into the darkness that is death to His presence. In light of revival I would suggest an awesome book by Frank Bartleman called Asuza Street Revival. It comes through prayer an intercession. It must be sought on a personal level. Our fellowship is persuing this very thing. Most of the body of Christ is just too busy to really seriously seek this. But I know that we will come to place where it becomes priority. Necessity will dictate that.Jubilee

Dear Dorcas,I wasn't in on your original discussion. I was just curious about it. I am a pursuer of revival. I study revival through the writings and messages of the past. I am looking for one in the future. How about you? :-o

Hi Dorcas;your quote:"The reason 'justice' is so important, is that it is all on God's terms. If we have a deepening understanding of the entity called 'Sin' - never forgetting that He has fulfilled all the requirements which He set for us to be delivered from it - then we will daily be awestruck by our inclusion in His Life."This is very true...to not take for granted the results of His Mercy is paramount for a better understanding of God. In order to "get it" we need to try and grasp His Holiness...one way to do this is to grasp our sin and the dirtiness of it. This is weak at best for because His Holiness is so much different than what we could possibly think. It may be poorly put in an analogy like this...if we lived in 1909 and were comparing a 1909 Ford Model T to a mysteriously appearing 2006 Ford Mustang GT. We may with the 1909 intellect surmise that the GT is in fact an automobile as is the Model T...but we would have no comprehension of the differences and what they may mean. I am trying to say that His Holiness is so far beyond us...and should not be compared to what we think Holiness for humans is...(mostly because we in our fallen state have no idea what Holiness really is) Then you can go back to the Cross and be ever more grateful that One such as He would have anything to do with us. The Justice required by sin and bestowed upon His son...simply raises the value to all three attributes involved...justice, mercy and HolinessWe deserve Hell...He gave us Mercy. And truly we not only deserve Hell...Hell is now (due to the fall) an attribute of humans...or we are HELL. Just as He is Mercy.Blessings,TS

I believe it can be agreed upon even in the light of the "be ye Holy for I am Holy". I think this speaks to our positional Holiness that is imputed to us once saved. In other words in the same way we can go before the throne room in prayer...by the Blood of Jesus, we also stand Holy before God. But the Holiness is not our own...it is Christs covering over us. If there is any sin in us...or even any sin we will ever again commit before we are seperated from the physical body...ie die. Then we cannot claim or "know" Holiness in the same way that God is Holy. We must also throw sins of ommission in this mix as well...how much sin do we commit just by not doing what we should?I am thinking of the Holiness that is glimpsed at here: Issaiah 6:1-7 1In the year of (A)King Uzziah's death (B)I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2Seraphim stood above Him, (C)each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3And one called out to another and said, "(D)Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The (E)whole earth is full of His glory." 4And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the (F)temple was filling with smoke. 5Then I said, "(G)Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of (H)unclean lips, And I live among a (I)people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the (J)King, the LORD of hosts." 6Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the (K)altar with tongs. 7He (L)touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and (M)your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven." To me I think sin is contagious and Holiness something people think incorrectly about...We are Holy in position only...just as we are righteous positionally only before the throne. I do think that as we are led by the Spirit at times we may do Holy things or act in ways that are Holy...but always it is God working in us. Our flesh is right around the corner...some walk more Holy than others but it is all as filthy rags compared to Gods Holiness. I think it needs more explanation... It may be a bit of splitting hairs in some ways...but we in the flesh can not assume either holiness or righteousness...that is part of full sanctification that we will reach when we get our resurrected Bodies...does this make sense?As far as understanding Holiness...I think that my finite mind can but grasp little pieces of what must be looked at as a sum whole...once we see Holiness face to face.TS