Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

I believe we are living in a time of change. Their are those who are ready to throw away all the old in order to bring in the new. Much the same as what happened in the sixties rebellion.May I say change of methods does not guaranteethe move of God.One of these changes is to do away with all the shepherds.I have a few questions concerning thistype of change.Will you dedicate your entire life to servingone another, 24 hous a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year?Will you spend 5 to 6 hours a day in study and prayer, work a fulltime job, call on those in need, and take nothing in return?Will you live in a house where anyone of Godscreatures have access i.e. scorpions, snakes, rats, cockroaches, frogs, skunks and yes even those who would take your life?Will you be there to hold the hand and pray withone who is passing, no matter what their appearence may be?Will you search out and find a lost brother or sister, even if you must enter into a stench that will make you gag?Will you hold the body of a little girl a police officer hands you with tire treads across her chest, or one who's head has been cracked openlike a walnut.Or a young man who has been split in two by a drunk driver?Will you live without, do without, and go withoutso others may have something?Will you spend your life being judged, your wife judged and your children judged, by those who have never walked in your shoes?Will you crawl out of your sick bed and go minister to one who is sick?Will you continue to do these things without thought of a 401k, a retirement home, or a condoby the sea. Willing to finish only when he calls you home to be with Him?Will you like countless numbers of men and women through out history, deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow Him?Will you do all these things in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him?If you will, then God Bless You, you have discovered what it cost to change.If you will not, then take heed, Luke 14:33 saysWhosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.Before we throw out the old, maybe we should count the cost.yours for christ,pastorfrin

Dear Shepherd, Your questions are right on the mark. Let me ask a few more.Could it be that some people are not trying to "throw out" the true shepherds, like you, but are tired of enduring pulpiteers who do not care for the sheep? Didn't Jesus call them hirelings?What would happen to the sheep if there was a true shepherd, one as you described for every twelve sheep?Of course the only way that would be possible is if the shepherds truly did lay down their lives. If they worked a forty plus hour per week job to support themselves and never slept or spent time with their families. Is that what God is asking for?Or maybe instead of throwing out the shepherds we should throw out the system. Where in the New Testament does it discuss the office of a pastor? Where does it say that he should have absolute rule and dominational governance over the sheep?Where does scripture endorse using the holy tithe of God's people to build temples?Maybe if we would throw out the ideology of the world system of kingdoms and rulers we could begin to use the tithe to support true shephers who will lay down their lives for the sheep.I know that this sounds radical but Jesus words to the religious establishment were pretty crazy sounding also. Didn't they say He had a demon?I'm open to a better way.Jeff

Some good questions...But are some of these questions in reference to specific events or things?

I won't be doing all those things, Pastorfrin, honestly... That was a pretty indirect post so I guess you were asking me as much as anyone(?). I just won't be doing all those things.Are those the things you normally do? Not a challenge, I've just not met many people who actually give warnings like that and live them every day of their own lives. Talk to ya soon.

Philippians 3:7-8 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.This is what we are to give up for Christ, any works that we think makes us a better person for Christ. Philippians 3:4-7 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.Paul forsaketh all that he was for the excellency of the knowledge of knowing Christ Jesus, to preach Christ and Him Crucified and with all that Paul knew in, of, and by Christ all Paul wanted was still to "know Him." What is a mans cross? Can he carry it and save himself? Who knows what the cross of a man is? Can a man who's cross is appointed by Christ carry it by himself? Paul's cross was appointed from his mother's womb. He was appointed to suffer for Christ's sake. Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:Acts 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.This was Paul's cross, The Cross of Christ, Phl 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me.Let us win Christ and all things will be added unto us.In Christ: Phillip

"The LORD is MY Shepherd, I shall not want" ;-)

Biblical Hermeneutics professors, these are hermenutical foxes in the hen house I worry about. They prove everything by hermenutics and most generally forget the Holy Spirit Comforter Teacher The Father sent by the prayer of Christ Himself, to reveal all things to the believer, even hermenutical error.Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.Not in self. By this belief, even to those that believe on His name are son's of God.Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.In Christ: Phillip

Hi pastorfrin,Before we throw out the old, maybe we should count the cost.Ah yes, so easy to be the armchair quarterback these days. Pathetic that the attitude creeps into the Body of Christ and becomes the attitude of folk towards the Shepherds.Its easy to talk up things. I knew a 'pastor' once who was also a Sheriff. Some of the things he told me were horrible. I have known of pastors to have to deal with things that would drop most of the complainers. Imagine having to tell a bleeding dad his 13 year old daughter was killed in the same accident by a drunk driver; found in a concrete ditch. Imagine having to answer all the "WHY! WHY! WHY's!" at the hospital as loved ones are passing and families are looking for answers. I wonder if the complainers ever sat at a hospital ALL night? Or ever get out of bed at 3:00 AM to counsel with a congregational member? We all want to get back to the NT model. Right? Its easy to talk it up, but we need some boots on the ground really ministering in these functions. The role of a pastor or 'shepherd' is one of tremendous stress and pain. the nay sayers had bit their tongues off had they known the lives of some of the men that they have put their tongue on. "It hath offended" they had said. Many have allowed their tongue to cause them to sin and have no clue. Like Mirriam and Moses. We need to be careful how we trifle in God's affairs.

Pastorfrin,If more pastors and those in leadership WERE like the examples you have given, the church would not be in the state it is.....the "sheep" look to the Shepherd to show the way. Most of the sheep are not looking for a "perfect" Shepherd, they are just looking for one who is truly following THE SHEPHERD and not the world. Because many Shepherds have lost the way and become not much different than the world, the sheep have been led astray or they scattered. I highly doubt most sheep who love THE SHEPHERD are very happy to have been scattered. They WANT to have a shepherd(earthly) who is listening and obeying THE SHEPHERD because they know they will be led to good food ---this type of shepherd will show evidence of this faithfulness to THE SHEPHERD by his life---- in word, deed and true abiding faith.Concerning the shepherds though, like I tell my children, if something doesn't apply to you, don't take it to heart. If you, as a Pastor, are doing those things the Lord has called you to, do them with joy----knowing HE is well pleased (you will never please ALL men, so don't even try). If however, the sheep have real issues, don't belittle those either. I think there is fault on both sides----and it all stems from a lack of genuine commitment to the Lord and to the Body of Christ.Pastorfin, many of the sheep just want to see examples like that of Paul............"who count it all dung" for the cause of Christ----to LOVE as Christ loves. That is what encourages those who are weaker in the faith to keep going and persevere---because they see others do it (more mature in the faith), and know, if they too lean on the Lord, they will make it through whatever difficult time they are in. May YOU be abundantly blessed with all SPIRITUAL blessings as you seek and do HIS will. In Him, Cindy

We all want to get back to the NT model. Right? Its easy to talk it up, but we need some boots on the ground really ministering in these functions. The role of a pastor or 'shepherd' is one of tremendous stress and pain. the nay sayers had bit their tongues off had they known the lives of some of the men that they have put their tongue on. "It hath offended" they had said. Many have allowed their tongue to cause them to sin and have no clue. Like Mirriam and Moses. We need to be careful how we trifle in God's affairs. Need I say again?

Yes, Robert say it again, and again…..And say more, please, For God's sakeArmchair quarterbacking you write? Perhaps it's called Internet Christianity and it may just be doing more harm than good in some instances. When we use PASTOR in quotes, nearly afraid to use the word, yes possibly something is terribly amiss. A genuine heart for revival, and then a rebellious spirit against Godly leadership and authority are growing together. But let not our hearts be troubled, God will separate it all out with precision.

Dear Pastorfrin,I am thrilled that there are men of God like you caring for the sheep. My hearts cry is that the Lord of the Harvest would send forth more laborers like you so that the sheep would not be scattered having no shepherd.Luke 14:27-3027 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30 saying,' This man began to build and was not able to finish.' NASBHow will God find such laboreres who count the cost the way that you did? The current system is producing a scant few. I believe that the Lord will raise them up through discipleship by men of a broken and contrite heart like yours.How will we keep them serving the fold if we use the means of support that God ordained for His anointed to do other things?I pray that the Church will catch the vision that providing for selfless shepherds like you is far more important than buildings and programs.Thank you for your sacrifice for the sheep given as unto the Lord.Jeff

Hi Tony,Perhaps it's called Internet Christianity and it may just be doing more harm than good in some instances. Isn't it strange that you could almost get the impression that we are overrun with folk trying to get into the pastor positions as it is such a coveted function that everyone wants to get in it. The truth is, the rate of attrition is tremendous among pastors and they are aging in our circles. Why? Folk simply are not responding to the call. Why? Because they are told that going into the ministry will ruin their life- so they go on into other- more lucrative jobs. So this leaves us with a small base to pull from. Now consider that there are stipulations to functioning in these roles. That narrows the field even more. Before it is all said and done there are few who will answer the call (like Jonah) and of those who are willing they don't measure up. The ones who have braved the foolery and down right meanness of their congregations are worn down and battered both from enemy AND friendly fire. Then arrive the Pharisees dressed as Prophets wanting to rebuke and reprove and yet have not lifted a burden ONE in the church or their contribution is the sum total of their lip service. They are real good 'fault finders' but poor 'burden bearers'.This also is vanity and vexation of spirit. It eats away at what zeal for God is left until they are near to finding a corner and assuming the fetal position. Soon even the faithful pastors are ready to throw in the towell and the nay-sayers are pointing the finger, "See! I told you they would fall. I knew he wasn't legit in the first place." Such madness and idle talk. Such fighting against the work of the ministry. It's all vanity and vexation of the spirit. What happens? Its like the wolf that licked the frozen knife in the tundra- thinking he was getting a meal- when the meal was his own blood. The more the taste of blood the stronger and more focused the lapping- all the while plunging their own selves down into death. We should ask ourselves if the blood we taste from all this backbiting is not our own?God Bless,Robert

Hello Bro Robert,First, thank God for PASTORS, PASTORS of local Churches, whether small or large. Pastors who as you mention are on call 24/7. Pastors that when the sheep have jumped in a pit, will with humility help to restore that wayward sheep. Pastors who are there at birth, at graduation, at marriage and even then in death.what are your thougts here:So this leaves us with a small base to pull from. Now consider that there are stipulations to functioning in these roles. That narrows the field even more. Before it is all said and done there are few who will answer the call (like Jonah) and of those who are willing they don't measure up.Maybe so, and of those few that will answer the call, what wonderful fruit will be produced. There is nothing that can be compared to an individual who has been called and sent by God (not men). If it be true that eternal life itself is only entered through a strait and narrow way, and few there be that find it. How much truer then there will be a number smaller than “few” who will be ripe for the picking as Pastors? I am always uncomfortable with the idea of just filling positions, simply because a position is available. And some near have the attitude if we use the scriptural guidelines for leaders then we will have no one to choose from. What would be so terrible with waiting on God, believing that He will send the workers for the harvest. What is really accomplished when we carelessly make assignments to positions? The truth is, the rate of attrition is tremendous among pastors and they are aging in our circles. Why? Folk simply are not responding to the call. Why? Because they are told that going into the ministry will ruin their life- so they go on into other- more lucrative jobs. How would this fit I am curious with Bible Colleges and Seminaries moving away from degrees in Biblical studies for Pastorships and the growth of music, drama, etc… in their programs?tonys

We should ask ourselves if the blood we taste from all this backbiting is not our own?In some cases yes, but in most of the cases I would say no. The role of the "modern pastor" is un-biblical and actually in most cases does more to harm the sheep then to do them any good. Since the vast majority of pastors are actually demons disguised as ministers of righteousness and our current view of a pastor is so corrupted at this point in the institutional church, I would have to say again that the answer to your question above is no and the quote below is deemed inconsequential. Sorry to disagree with you Rob, but I think if you are to look at things in the light of Scripture and without the blinders of modern institution church you may be able to see where I am coming from.We all want to get back to the NT model. Right? Its easy to talk it up, but we need some boots on the ground really ministering in these functions. The role of a pastor or 'shepherd' is one of tremendous stress and pain. the nay sayers had bit their tongues off had they known the lives of some of the men that they have put their tongue on. "It hath offended" they had said. Many have allowed their tongue to cause them to sin and have no clue. Like Mirriam and Moses. We need to be careful how we trifle in God's affairs.

Let me ad just a little more to pastorfrin...What about a leader in the church yelling at you in a meeting in front of the whole church, and storm out yelling I resign...people leaving after the leader resigns...CHAOS breaks out all because you stood for the Word.What about a board telling you...your not going to get a raise this year...all because the chairman came into the church and didnt find the you in your office...but that chairman didnt know you were out visiting the people in your church that day.What about studying hours upon hours preparing for bible study and only 3 show up or none.What about finding out your chairman is a masonic lodge member in high degree.Do I want to be a pastor again in the American church? :-(

Here is something to think about."Where in the NT are we told that it is supposed to be a 'pastor' leading? From the understanding which I've been given, it was the apostles, prophets, and elders who were looked to for leadership. This certainly doesn't mean that none of these people didn't have pastoral giftings, but no where have I found Scriptural mandate for 'pastors' to be leading. Could it be that one of the instituional churches main problems is that the 'pastors' (many of whom are gifted to be teachers, rather than primarily shepherds) are trying to lead when they were never meant to? On an aside, I've been sent to many different heiresis', and I've been shown that most of these leaders who assume their positions are truly gifted teachers. This would explain the huge pride problem which is to be seen in leadership for knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. Teachers are primarily gifted to exchange knowledge, and with all of the 'schooling' that most attain, it seems that this may explain things a bit." William Floyd

Hi Bro,How would this fit I am curious with Bible Colleges and Seminaries moving away from degrees in Biblical studies for Pastorships and the growth of music, drama, etc… in their programs?Certainly ministers cannot be manufactured. There is no trouble waiting on God. Men cannot call- God must call. I do not believe in 'filling' positions either. I can tell from the tremendous lack of laborers that there has to be an equally tremendous lack of folk finding their calling. This is a prime reason we were spread so thin for so many years. I just cannot believe that God has not called folk into the needy areas. Also you know I don't go in for all the 'program' nonsense. Manufactured ministers leads to manufactured converts. Error begets error. My emphasis was and is the new birth. Get folk genuinely born again and we will have genuine Christians from which God can raise up ministers. The problem is at the very foundation. My point in 'feeling' for the original post is that so many who are trying to do the work of the Lord are being compartmentalized with those who are in error. The sting is the same. I simply cannot go for that. God Bless,-Robert

CHAOS breaks out all because you stood for the Word.I say LET CHAOS break out.........God is doing a work when people rebell against the truth. Let that "work" manifest.Do I want to be a pastor again in the American church?If God truly called you to shepherd, no matter what obstacles may come your way, HE will allow you to go forth in HIS power and you, if called, will go. In Him, Cindy

Hi Patrick,I am aware of your position on how things should be in the Church and by and large I agree. The role of the "modern pastor" is un-biblical and actually in most cases does more to harm the sheep then to do them any good. Since the vast majority of pastors are actually demons disguised as ministers of righteousness and our current view of a pastor is so corrupted at this point in the institutional church, I would have to say again that the answer to your question above is no and the quote below is deemed inconsequential.I have a teaching on the role of the pastor called "The Tablelands" and in it I deal with the role of a Shepherd(s) as their role is to lead the people of God into green pastures where the milk and honey flows. God by the hand of Moses led the people towards the land 'flowing with milk and honey.' Notice at the bottom of my subscript "Milk and Honey does NOT flow in Egypt." What does that mean? It is only in the green fertile places in which the revelation of God and the moving of the Spirit are found that MILK flows. Milk for what? Milk for the feeding of the lambs. The very thing Peter was told by our Lord to do, "Feed my lambs". And also "Feed my Sheep". We cannot lead a people onto the barren deserts of a dead dry world and expect to have reproduction and increase of lambs or healthy sheep. Since the vast majority of pastors are actually demons disguised as ministers of righteousness... This is the kind of radical stuff I am referring to. Surely you do not think that the vast majority of ministers are demons dressed in shepherds garb? Are there really that many ministers out there leading folk into legalisms and Judaism and falsehood that denies the Lord, the cross, and His saving power? Maybe there are many who are in error in some way. I am sure there are FEW that have it ALL right. But to suggest that they are mostly demons I cannot believe.

Since the vast majority of pastors are actually demons disguised as ministers of righteousness Vast Majority??Tell us about your study Patrick.The vast majority of Pastors are demons? Is the number at 30%, 90%. 50%, was your study restricted to only Pastors there in Michigan? Was it conducted in the United States, Worldwide….. Have you compiled a list of these demonic Pastors ?If there are 400,000 + Churches and Pastors in the Unites States alone, how many of these are you familiar with, have interviewed, been in attendance in their meetings, studied their doctrinal statements, met with the parishioners?Tell us more.

If God truly called you to shepherd, no matter what obstacles may come your way, HE will allow you to go forth in HIS power and you, if called, will go.This is simply not true. Many are called and few are chosen. Yet even fewer are chosen, called and faithful (Revelation 17:14)

Quote: """You say that you have "accepted Jesus"...but has Jesus accepted you? In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33"""These two quotes are a pure and perfect law attention getters. I must say Jesus accepted the whole world at the Cross when it was finished. There is no question whether Christ has accepted me. The question is do I believe what God has said about His Son, is Christ's statement of "He who believes in Me will keep My Commandments," just a statement for good law keeping Jews or for that matter proselyted Gentiles? I think not, I think the Cross was enough to make sure that we had no question about acceptance, but only our Change in our belief system. Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.I we believe that Christ is the Son of God and He died on the Cross to save those that believe, we have assurance, yes a complete assurance by John's statements the Christ has accepted us including me. 1 John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.God wants us to know, yes to know that we are saved from eternal damnation and are seated in Heavenly Place in Christ Jesus and give us assurance that nothing can separate us from the Love of God and Christ Jesus who is now our life and our all and our will if we believe. Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Yes, we do nothing or can do nothing of our own will, just like Jesus seeking the will of the Father, Through Jesus Christ we do the same, yes by Jesus Christ and Him alone can we do the will of Him that sent Him.Who can separate us from this great oneness with God in Christ Jesus? Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.In Christ: Phillip

This is simply not true. Many are called and few are chosen. Yet even fewer are chosen, called and faithful (Revelation 17:14)Yes, you are correct. My misspeak. Yes, many are called, but many are not qualified to be chosen. I do believe, if one is qualified to be chosen, the LORD will uphold them to fulfill the ministry the Lord has chosen them for........IF they "abide" in Him. We are admonished not to grow weary in well doing, for in due SEASON we will reap. Many faithful men/women of God need to put this truth deep down in their hearts, so they can endure that which comes against them from the flesh and the enemy. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

Phillip,Yes indeed brother and this is what concerns me so much in regards to Finney’s Theology. What I refer to as a “hope so” Gospel which I find in part opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When what at least in part separated the Protestants from the Roman Catholics (Justification by Faith) becomes blurred and little understood there is a breakdown of monumental proportions. Finney's position on these matters also caused him to define justification in subjective, rather than objective, terms. Protestants have historically insisted that justification is a purely forensic declaration, giving the penitent sinner an immediate right standing before God on the merit of Christ's righteousness, not their own (cf. Rom. 10:3; Phil. 3:9). By forensic, I mean that it is a legal declaration, like a courtroom verdict or a marriage pronouncement ("I now pronounce you husband and wife"). It changes the person's external status rather than affecting some kind of internal change; it is a wholly objective reality.The subjective transformation of the believer that conforms us to Christ's image is sanctification—a subsequent and separate reality, distinct from justification (although I wish not to draw lines that are to severe in this regard). Since the dawn of the Protestant Reformation, the virtually unanimous Protestant consensus has been that justification is in no sense grounded in or conditioned on our sanctification. Catholicism, on the other hand, mingles justification and sanctification, making sanctification a prerequisite to final justification.Well, I will step down off my box now…. This is what came to mind reading your post. Not meant to slam Finney, it has been pointed out that he was a revivalist not a Theologian, but perhaps a new thread on this would be appropriate as it may not fit here.tonys

I wonder if anyone can find RonB's recent assertion that what is commonly called 'sanctification' should more correctly be termed glorification?This can be found in the Rora 2003 series here on the site and I highly recommend the whole series. Repentance (A change in direction)Justification (A change in legal status)Regeneration (A change in our nature)Adoption (a change in our relationship) You can find those here.

Hi Cindy,I certainly do wish that all were faithful to walk in the calling wherewith they were called. I wish it was so that God's will is just carried out, but He has left many decisions in our hands. I do think there is something to be said about God's sovereignty also and I appreciate your stand in that. I do believe, if one is qualified to be chosen, the LORD will uphold them to fulfill the ministry the Lord has chosen them for........IF they "abide" in Him. We are admonished not to grow weary in well doing, for in due SEASON we will reap.I wonder if we may have the cart before the horse here. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Ephesians 1:4)The calling was before we had chance to do either good or evil. The call cannot be based upon performance in this regard as God deals with man in 'real time'. Saul is case in point. God does not call men based on what they will ultimately do, or He had erred in calling Saul. He lets men's lives play out in real time and deals with them accordingly. Consider also this passage:For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)The WEB version says they are 'irrevokable'. God does not revoke the calling. (ed) Unlike a drivers license can be 'revoked'. I think this is an important consideration in our understanding of God's 'calling'. The enemy would love to come in and set up a scenerio to disqualify people from the calling of God by all sorts of weird things that cast doubt in man's eyes. All he has to do is set them up and they are suddenly 'disqualified'. Many times it is not even of their own making. There is no equity in that and God is a God of equity and justice. Even more so a God of mercy and grace. God Bless,-Robert

I'd rather have a Pastor who actually "feeds" the sheep the quality 'meat' of the Word, then if he calls me when I'm sick or visits me or any of those other things.Yes, oh for the green pastures. Would to God that the Shepherds would lead the flock into those tablelands. The role of a Shepherd is so deep. A "Shepherds look at Psalm 23" is a tremendous and challenging resource in that regard. We need so many things? Protection, feeding, mending, and so on. We need complete shepherds. We need the whole package. ;-)

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)What a wonderful promise. And adds new urgency and importance that we must lay aside every weight that hinders, and forsake that which God forbids that we might abide in the calling wherein we are called (we know of course the discussion here in Corinthians was circumcision, slavery etc...). Why? Because we are bought with a price, the precious shed blood of Christ at Calvary. Hardly, there is nothing sadder than a Christian who chooses to resist the Holy Ghost and the calling of God upon their life. No doubt God continues to call, He does not change His mind but in our rebellion never to realize the potential that was to be. We all have heard and read the tragic end of men and women whose mind as it were was in a vice, not believing there could be repentance and restoration, having committed suicide. I'd rather have a Pastor who actually "feeds" the sheep the quality 'meat' of the Word, then if he calls me when I'm sick or visits me or any of those other things.If I'm being fed half-truths and half-errors, then he can just as well stay home then come see me at the hospital.Another good example of extremes we are so prone to. It is not a matter of either or but both. Let us live and practice both. If I am being fed half-truths and half errors perhaps it is time for me to roll out? And for that matter, I am reminded when the 12 Apostles called the multitude of the Disciples and appointed some to take care of the business of the Assembly, in that the Apostles could give themselves to Prayer and Preaching. tonys

Hi Robert,I just wanted to clarify: I too do not believe the gifts and callings are revokable. I believe those who are called and qualified----are called by Christ, then qualified through CHRIST, not by their own works of righteousness. I also do not believe one who truly belongs to the Lord can "lose" their salvation.....but I think there are many out there who "think" they are saved, but are not-----the false conversions you spoke of earlier.Saul's appointment is quite interesting. It appears to me that Saul was NOT called, but appointed by God due to MAN'S demands. Man wanted Saul. God gave man what he desired though it was not best for them. To me, so it is today in many pulpits-----man wants certain men/women in the pulpit and the Lord permits it to be so (For His purposes). Paul said it would be like this in the last days........For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers, they will will turn their ears away from truth, and be turned aside to fables.........II Tim. 4:3-4Unfortunately, because this appears prevalent in Today's church, many are throwing the baby out with the bathwater concerning the labelling of pastors. I believe there ARE men of God who truly love Him with all their hearts and desire to serve Him and the Body faithfully with Agape love and in Truth. It's just difficult to find in the Western institutional church of today, where for some, Pastor is just a job, a status symbol, or a symbol of authority(not a calling). Blessings in Him, Cindy

glorificationGLORIFICA'TION, n. See Glorify. The act of giving glory or of ascribing honors to.1. Exaltation to honor and dignity; elevation to glory; as the glorification of Christ after his resurrection.Glorification is the result of sanctification. Sanctification:38. hagiasmosSearch for G38 in KJVSLagiasmoV hagiasmos hag-ee-as-mos'from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.Sanctification is the state we are in of being glorified. Our glorification in spirit is complete in Christ Jesus, by His Spirit that is in us. Our glorification in mind (soul)is being attained by the sanctification of Christ in us being transformed by the renewing of our mind to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit, Who is the Sanctifier and Christ be Sanctification. Christ has been made sanctification by the Father that birthed Him in us, Christ is now our Nature, and we are by sanctification being glorified. 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.The two, sanctification and glorification are in Christ. Sanctification that we glory in Him. Glory before God the Father, which is Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Sanctification by Christ, being revealed by the Holy Spirit unto Glory.In Christ: Phillip

I’m just butting in here with a thought. It would seen that from the context of the words “God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable”, this refers to salvation and the benefits of salvation. It doesn’t seem to imply anything about positions in the church, or the way we typically use the world “calling” – ie position, job, duty, office…. Even gifts doesn’t seem to refer to abilities (preaching,evangelism, music, etc.) I say this because I once heard a pastor say that because he was called to be a pastor, he was ALWAYS meant to be a pastor. In other words, God would never call him (demote) into the “secular” job market. I think he grossly misapplied the scriptures. From Romans 11:28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.Comments from E-sword: GIFTS: The favors or benefits which God bestows on men. The word χάρισμα charisma properly denotes any benefit which is conferred on another as a mere matter of favor, and not of reward; see Rom_5:15-16; Rom_6:23. Such are all the favors which God bestows on sinners includingpardon, peace, joy, sanctification, and eternal life.CALLING: The word “calling” κλῆσις klēsis here denotes that act of God by which he extends an invitation to people to come and partake of his favors, whether it be by a personal revelation as to the patriarchs, or by the promises of the gospel, or by the influences of his Spirit. All such invitations or callings imply a pledge that he will bestow the favor, and will not repent, or turn from it. God never draws or invites sinners to himself without being willing to bestow pardon and eternal life. The word “calling” here, therefore, has not respect to external privileges, but to that choosing of a sinner, and influencing him to come to God, which is connected with eternal life.WITHOUT REPENTANCE: This does not refer to man, but to God. It does not mean that God confers his favors on man without his exercising repentance, but that God does not repent, or change, in his purposes of bestowing his gifts on man. What he promises he will fulfil; what he purposes to do, he will not change from or repent of. As he made promises to the fathers, he will not repent of them, and will not depart from them; they shall all be fulfilled; and thus it was certain that the ancient people of God, though many of them had become rebellious, and had been cast off, should not be forgotten and abandoned. This is a general proposition respecting God, and one repeatedly made of him in the Scriptures; see Num_23:19, “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he not said, and shall he not do it? hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” Eze_24:14; 1Sa_15:29; Psa_89:35-36; Tit_1:2; Heb_6:18; Jam_1:17. It follows from this,(1) That all the promises made to the people of God shall be fulfilled.(2) That his people need not be discouraged or desponding, in times of persecution and trial.(3) That none who become his true friends will be forsaken, or cast off. God does not bestow the gift of repentance and faith, of pardon and peace, on people, for a temporary purpose; nor does he capriciously withdraw them, and leave the soul to ruin.hen he renews a soul, it is with reference to his own glory; and to withdraw those favors, and leave such a soul once renewed to go down to hell, would be as much a violation of all the principles of his nature as it would be to all the promises of the Scripture.(4) For God to forsake such a soul, and leave it to ruin, would imply that he did repent. It would suppose a change of purpose and of feeling. It would be the character of a capricious being, with no settled plan or principles of action; no confidence could be reposed in him, and his government would be unworthy the affections and trust of his intelligent creation.

Hi Roadsign,I think that there are indications in the passage that gifts and callings can likewise be in view- as the statement is a general one within the context of Israel's calling (another hairy topic ;-)).Lets look a little closer:The word 'Chrisma' (gifts) is used 17 times in the New Testament. there seems to be a link in each one to the working of the Holy Spirit. Of those 17 times we find referral to:'Salvation': Romans 5:15, 16, 6:23, Spiritual gifts of various sorts: Romans 1:11, 11:29, 12:6, I Corinthians 1:7, 7:7, 12:4, 9, etc. The word 'calling' is another interesting word. This is 'klesis' in Greek means an 'invitation', but it does not seem to indicate the act of calling as much as the 'vocation' itself. It is used 11 times. Here we have:For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: (I Corinthians 1:26)Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. (I Corinthians 7:20)The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, (Ephesians 1:18)I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, (Ephesians 4:1)There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;(4:4)I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil 3:14)Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: (2 Thess 1:11)Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (II Tim 1:9)Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; (Hebrews 3:1)Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (II Peter 1:10) We have a more frequently used word for the 'call' that goes out and it is kaleo- used some 130 or so times. it is found in Galatians 1:15 where Paul discribes his 'call': But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, (Gal 1:15) First keep in mind that the word 'call' is scattered in with the vocational word 'calling' as we find in I Cor 7:20: Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. So I think it save to assume there is certainly a connection between the 'call' and the 'vocation'. Returning to Galatians 1:15 we have great insight into the 'when' of the calling. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb,... Notice that God called Paul before he had done any works good or evil. Even when he laid waste of the Church, accumulating the sins that would earn him the title "Chief among sinners" that calling was never revoked. Now, we read these things and they just kind of skim over our minds- but it is hard for me to get my head around the 'level' and number of sins commited when a person is compelling believers to blaspheme Christ and persecuting them at the level Saul of Tarsus was doing. We cringe when we think of those that killed Nate Saint and company in South America- but imagine suddenly the head spearsman being relegated to an Apostle! That man would not be the dust coming off Saul of Tarsus and yet still the calling was not revoked. It was tough for Paul to be trusted at first I am quite sure- even to the place where he said later in life... from henceforth let no many trouble me, for I carry in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. What are you saying Paul? Who was troubling you all the time? Why did you need to raise your shirt (as it were) to proove your sincerity? Could it have been because some of those people who remembered who Paul once was STILL refused to let it go? People don't 'let things drop' easily. But it was never about who Paul 'was' it was about the New Creature he is in Christ. There was simply no way he could prove his repentance but to keep on pressing in in spite of all the persecutions coming from everywhere. He could not 'bring back' that man's sister he had killed or that woman's son. It tooks stripes to convince the people, but the real evidence was in the Finger of God that was present in His ministry. THAT is the indicator. We can cite the Ballim's and Donkeys as being used of God all we want to- but when the Finger of God is truly present- confirming the Truth, what more evidence of a vocation do you want? I suppose Paul just said, OK, for those who still don't believe- those scars on my back here are from the many lashings I have taken for following my vocation. No body beat Paul for getting saved- the beat him because he was not unfaithful to the heavenly vision and that vision was the revelation of his ultimate vocation (calling) in Christ that was made before the foundation of the world.

Hello Robert,Thanks for your words of enlightenment.Was Paul the 'chiefest of sinners' because of the multitude of evil things that he did, the 1st century Saddam Hussein? Or did He see himself as worse than all others because he held a superieror knowledge of the scriptures and yet refused to belief that Jesus was the Messiah?Missing the mark in ignorance is bad enough but when one claims to know God, know His Word, and yet not obey His commands, it is worse. Not obeying the voice of God in faith because we have not heard His voice is sin, but to refuse to do what we have heard him say is rebellious sin or lawlessness.Jeff

Hi h2oboy,I think further discussion along those lines will warrant a different thread. I have helped to get this one off course far enough I suppose. :-? I do think it all ties together though. The answer is in I Timothy 1:14 and following.

Wow, seems there is a stirring among the sheep. Hi everyone forgive me for missing all of this,I was away. Also forgive me for not answeringall your post, I just don't have the time. So please allow me to respond hopefully to all withthis.First of all this was not meant to be about meor any other pastor/shepherd. This is about the sheep. All who have been born of the Spirit of God, are the sheep of His pasture.Look at Eph. 4 , read it, read it again and as many times as it takes for us to understand what the will of our Lord Jesus Christ is for His sheep. NO WHERE does it say He has put anyone over His sheep. He says, HE GAVE SOME, from among the sheep, HE, Our LORD, gave some to beapostles, prophets, evangelists,pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints,for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Why? Because its His Will. Its His Will that we, His sheep, all come into the unity of the faith.In this chapter we are told HOW, the sheep grow up into Him in all things which is the head, evenChrist:We are also told what will hinder the sheep from growing up into Him. I will sum up, what will hinder this way, Vs.17. by walking in the vanityof our minds. Whats that mean? I'm going to do it my way, so I will just ingnor the Lord's way.Mark 3:35 For whosover will do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. Again I remind you, we are all His sheep, no matter what part of the body He has chosen us to be.So again I ask the the question, Will You?Will you do His will by serving as the body part He has chosen you to be? Rember, every single part of His body has been called to the work of the ministry.Vs.16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.The effectual working comes from doing His will.1 John 2:12 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.WILL YOU?Love To All,pastorfrin

Maybe you could address this on here and maybe some how it could reach the ears of many pastors who run the show.Yes, I agree with Annie on this and would like to hear your perspective. In our circles there are some pastors who 'tolerate' the gifts and others who welcome them. The cautious pastors have the attitude due to past experiences in which folk were given wrong 'words' that led to great confusion. This is probably another thread material, but it would likely make for a good discussion.

Hi Dorcas,If you don't agree, please be gentle with me, and show me a better way.I'm listening with no reason to quarrel. I have such a limited perspective that it helps to hear how others view such things. In the OT a person could be stoned for bringing a false word; but I think the issue was a matter of doctrine more than the details of the who and what. Many prophesies NEVER could be fulfilled in the time they were given- yet the prophets were speaking to the people in 'real' time. Had they used a standard we think they should have they had been stoned also as what they prophesied did not come to pass. So I think we have missed something here somewhere. We may be applying rules of interpretation to these 'words' that do not apply. We have clear direction on the checks and balances, but I think you may be right here in that we are under the NT and not the OT in that regard. The atmosphere has to be one of love.

Hi Annie,You have been upon my heart and in my prayers the last few days,what a blessing it is to hear from you. In fact, its a blessing to hear from every one of you. What a wonderful experienceit is to share with one another His glorious truths.Well I will try, Lord give me wisdom, to address some of these questions. Due to space and timelets just try a bite at a time.First, if a church is not opperating according toEph. 4 it is not in the will of God.Its very hard for me to address this issue without offending someone. May I ask all of you to please pray and seek His truth before you decide to be offended.Lets start with Matt. 15:1-14 we will only lookat His application here to leadership.Fact: a pastor who does not allow the Holy Spiritfull reign in the gathering of the saints, is very insecure. Thus he is steeped in tradition.Our Lord says in Matt. 15:6 that this kind of tradition makes the Word of God to no effect.Why tradition? It gives the insecure pastor full control,its a set program,no allowances are made for the leading or moving of the Holy Spirit. Why? Insecurity wants to be in total control,no surprises. 2Tim.3:5 calls it a form of having a godliness, while denying the power thereof;from such turn away.Jesus makes this clear in Matt. 15:8,9. that the insecure lead in lip service, but not from the heart. He says Vs.9 But in vain they do worshipme, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.(tradition). In Vs.14. He confirms what is said in the last part of 2Tim.3:5. From such turn away. Matt.15:14let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind.And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall in the ditch. So whats He saying?Let them alone and from such turn away.Now, to make something very clear, He is talkingabout the traditions that leave out or ignore theWord of God and replace it with mans controls.If a church is not being opperated according toEph.4 it is not a new testament church., and chances are the pastor and a majority of the congregation like it that way, it might possibly be, only because of ignorance.You, after much prayer and if you are led by theLord to do so, point out the truth in LOVE,IN LOVE. If the truth is accepted and taught, stay and support the shepherd. If the truth is not accepted, then you should as Matt.15:14 says, leave them alone and as 2 Tim.3:5 says, from such turn away.DO NOT speak out to others against them. The Lordis well able to handle the matter.Now, go where the truth and the liberty of the Spirit is being taught.2 Cor.3:17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.Liberty, for the effectual working in the measureof every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Praise God and enjoy the liberty of His Spirit! to be continuedLove to all,pastorfrin

Hi Dorcas,The connection is this, a pastor/shepherd is partof the church/body of Christ, as is apostles, prophets, evangelist and teacher, as stated inEph. 4 and 1 Cor. 12. The question is, if these are given to the church/body of Christ for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ;Which one of these gifts can the body do without?What part of the perfecting and edifying processshould we not use (leave out)? and on who's authority?You see, we can plug any one of these Gifts of the Holy Spirit into this thread. So we couldask the question this way.Some questions for those who would leave the sheep without apostles, prophets, evangelist,pastor/shepherd and teachers

Hi Annie,Thanks for your comments, I need not add any more you said it very well. :-D I enjoy your wisdom and discernment, is He not just wonderful, oh what glorious truths He shareswith His children. I love Him better,and gooderevery day. Country boy talk, you will have to interpret.Talk with you all soon,Love to all,pastorfrin

Pastorfrin I have enjoyed reading your answers to the questions. I was wondering if you see any difference between the compassionate shepherds that you have described and the pastors who are CEOs of corporate America churches?Jeff

Hello, I am reading this thread of wonderful dialogue and am sparked to respond. Pastor Frin you wrote about what to do if there is tradition and a 'lording over' the sheep occuring. Thank you for those words. They are concurrent with my experience right now. I have been desiring to leave my current assembly but have not done so yet. To leave and run from the problem is not the answer and I bless God for allowing me to remain. Oh, it is a struggle to attend even one more meeting and yet I go, pained in my heart. I thank you for your gracious words that have leapt up in my heart as confirmation to what must take place, the proper order of things (if I may say so), before leaving my current assembly. So, one question if I may. How should, properly and in order, I breach the subject with the pastor there? Is it best done one-on-one? With my wife and his? thank you

Hi Ruach34,answer: In Love, In Love, In Love, any other way brings destructive results.Make sure you are not acting in the flesh. Take your reasons before the Lord.Have you discussed this problem with your pastor before now? If not do so and leave room for solutions to the problem.If all this has been done without results, then follow the leading of the Lord. If He directs you to do so, then talk to your pastor alone, its no one elses business. If you wish for your wife to be with you, thats fine, but you do the talking. Avoid accusations and fault finding. Do not raise your voice even if he does. A shouting match will solve nothing. BE HUMBLE, If you leave the church, never, never, speak against the man. Let the Lord's will be done.Praying for you all,pastorfrin

Thank you, Pastor Frin. Yes, some issues have been encountered already and a cold shoulder has been given. I love truth and honesty and have desired a true assembling of ourselves with transparency but feel at my current assembly that is not on the radar screen. I thank you for your words. I will ask the Lord to give the impulse of His will and His grace to orchestrate the situations. Wow, where would we be without faith in Christ Jesus. O, for those that have cried out 'Lord, Lord,' yet when finally standing before Him, He says, 'I never knew you.' I weep for those...May grace and peace be multiplied to you Pastor Frin and all reading...

Hi Jeff,Sorry I have not responded sooner. I have sought the Lord for the right answer and it seems the more I try to soften it the more He strengthens it.So here goes,I pray this is received by our brothers and sisters with an open heart.The answer to your question is yes, I do see a difference. To the one its a calling, which has taken much preperation. The compassionate shepherd did not happen out of four years of seminary. They were created from the heart of theLord, by becoming a lump of clay, being shaped by the Masters own hands, until they said Lord thy will be done, not mine but Thine.The other is a professional, who serves the willof the people. They minister in the flesh, to the flesh, to receive the desires of the flesh.Matt.7:15-20; Phil.3:18,19They prosper here because most Americans use the worlds plumbline and definition for the will of God. So we can't completely blame these professional corporate pharisees, they are just being good capitalist, giving the people what they want and have flocked to them so to receive.These people have little or no concern for the Word or Will of God, if they did they would readand study it. They only use His Word to confirm the lust and desires of the flesh. Their lack of compassion for the lost, for the widow and orphan, and the poor and homeless only confirm that they are unsaved, uncaring, and unrepentant. They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They heap to themselvesteachers having itching ears to tell them what they want to hear. 2Tim.3&4.Its the blind leading the blind and the Lord says leave them alone for they will both fall into the ditch. They do not want to hear or know the truth. Matt.15:13,14.The religious system in America is not the Church of Jesus Christ, its corporate pastors serve the flesh and not the Spirit, and its time for true men and women of God to stand up and say WAKE UP AMERICA YOU ARE LIVING A LIE!Jesus said in Matt.7:21 not everyone that saithunto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.WAKE UP AMERICA! THE SWORD IS COMING!Read Ezek. 9 The destroying weapon is in their hands. The one clothed in linen is going about marking the people of God. Who is He marking? All those that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. Where does the destroying begin? At the sanctuary of the Lord. People its time to stop thinking about ourselves and what we want or think, and start doing the will of our Fatherwho art in heaven. His will is that not one should perish but that all should come to repentance. Lets start sighing and crying for the abominations that be done in the midst of us. Stop thinking we are rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing when we are really wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked: Rev.3:17. Listen to the counsel, of our Lord Jesus Christ, Answer the knock, hear His voice sigh and cry and we WILL see THE MIGHTY HAND of GOD. REPENT and see the GLORY of the LORD!With all my love to you all,pastorfrin

PastorFrin,Thank you for speaking the truth in love. I had already discerned that you are a rare breed. I see a few other differneces but you definitely covered the ones that are pertinent to this thread. I pray God's richest blessings upon you as you shepherd His flock.Love in Christ,Jeff

Hi dorcas,Could you please explain what exactly you mean bythe word against. Also, who are the some of us inyour statement? Does this mean you and the Lord?You and commentators and translators? You and other brothers and sisters in the Lord? The word against,is a very strong statement on your partand I was just wondering on what premise this is being made.To avoid any misunderstanding its important to know exactly where you are coming from, otherwise any response would be pure spectulation.Thanks Linn,In His Love, pastorfrin

The religious system in America is not the Church of Jesus Christ, its corporate pastors serve the flesh and not the Spirit, and its time for true men and women of God to stand up and say WAKE UP AMERICA YOU ARE LIVING A LIE!Thank you Pastorfrin! May the Lord abundantly bless you with all spiritual blessings as you walk in obedience and boldness.......we surely do need to wake up and SEE as the Lord sees.......In Him, Cindy

Hi Linn,Yes you have, but I was'nt bothered, only concerned that my answer might be coming from a totally different direction, or different page than the one you are on. Now I can address the issue from the same perspective. Thanks!Regarding the word against and lie, I hope to cover that soon. :-) In His Love,pastorfrin

Hi Cindy,Jeff and Annie,Hope you don't mind Cindy, I'm trying to save space.I want to thank all of you for your response and I do covet your prayers. Lets all sigh and cry together, and agree together for the Lord's willto be done on earth as it is in heaven. Amen!God Bless you all,pastorfrinp.s. Have a blessed weekend! :-D

So all you buzzards who want to live in the desert and fly around and land on a piece of meat that has been rotting in the sun, go to it, all the power to you. And us Eagles who fly higher in God will light on living meat and swoop down and take it by force.Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Dorcas said:"In that, I would definitely include other brothers and sisters and THE LORD, who left a group of men in charge of the fledgling Church.There are only 10 posts in the following thread, which discussed the possible outworking of a 'plurality of elders'. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6762&forum=35I realise this is not quite the same as a plurality of 'shepherds', as has been discussed recently in a different thread, (Pastor, husband of one wife?) and was clearly alluded to in this one on pastors."Hi Linn,What makes plurality of elders different than a plurality of shepherds? Didn't Paul say,Acts 20:17-1817 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders of the church.18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them,... Acts 20:28-3128 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.31 Wherefore watch ye,ASVIs not Paul saying that the elders are to feed, inspect, and proctect the flock? to be shepherds?Not every shepherd must preach in order to feed the flock. One Preacher is incapabable of personally inspecting and protecting 100+ sheep. So why should there not be a cooperative, unified effort by a plurality of elder/shepherds to work among the sheep?I believe PastorFrin hit the nail on the head. Many in the pulpits are not there to care for the sheep but are there to govern the corporation and reap its benefits. If a man or woman is called of God to shepherd His sheep then that individual will be so consumed with the well being of the sheep that he will accept all the help that he can get without concern for who is 'chief' or who gets the credit. After all it is Christ's Church, and Christ's flock.Love ya!Jeff

Thanks Mike,Have been going to respond to those quotes for some time now. Decided to just pray for the person instead.You handled it very well,I have Prov.16:18 hanging above my computer as a reminder. Only time seems to show us how true it is.In Christ Love,pastorfrin

Annie,You are to kind.This vs. hangs over my computer,Isa.49:16 Behold I have engraved thee upon the palms of my hands.He loves you so, and you are really that close to Him. He knows your every need and will meet you right where you are. By His stripes you were healed.I'm agreeing with you this very moment for the manifestation to take place, In JESUS NAME!Love and prayers in Jesus Name,pastorfrin

Hey, ALL and Pastor Frin.I am on this site about one time a week but always try to catch up and all that is said. Thank you for not holding your message back, Pastor Frin, the one about the Sword. It is easy to become complacent. To forget the entirety of the word of God and therefore lose sight and slip into the midst. It is more difficult to be the one calling from the wilderness...Who is Willing for that?! Can we daily pick up our cross and be willing for that kind of death...Death to our doctrines, our meager beliefs, the differences of opinions...They will all die away! Oh, I long for that kind of death to self, Pastor Frin, and would appreciate a prayer of agreement for that. I want to stay on the narrow road. Praise to the God and Father of our Lord and Savious Jesus Christ!Rich

Hey Rich,I agree in Jesus Name. Its all about His love.We need to take up His love every day, its by His love shinning through us, that the world will see that we are His disciples. Its not about what we say we believe, its all about His love. Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, shall be filled. And this is the name whereby He shall be called,THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer.23:6May the Lord's blessings be upon you all,pastorfrin

Hi all,Well here we go with part 2. I know that this will probably raise more questions than it willanswer. Keep that in mind, Asking questions and sharing our thoughts with one another, is howa forum opperates.First let me say that throughtout God's Wordthere runs a truth that is very simple, and yet very complete. This premise, reveals God's peoplein a figurative way as sheep, being led by shepherds.Lets make some observations. In Genesis 4:2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but cain was a tiller of the ground.Think about this, Abel the first recorded shepherd, lost his life because his offeringof a lamb was accepted by God. Jesus, The Lamb of God, gave himself as an offering for all of man, was accepted of God, redeemed all who willreceive, and has become the chief Shepherd of all who will hear His voice and follow Him. Praise the name of the Lord.Now we see in Acts 7:22-30 and Exodus 2:15-3:1that Moses was prepared for eighty years, the last forty as a shepherd, to lead Israel out of Egypt. Not quite the same as four years in the seminary. ;-) King David was prepared to be King over Israelby being a shepherd. 1 Sam.16:11; 17:34-36.We see other examples of the Lord preparing men through being shepherds of the sheep, to use to fulfill His purpose.Now, the greatest example of all is found in the chief Shepherd, Jesus Christ.It is from His example that all questions about the shepherd/pastor can be answered. So all youshepherd/pastors take note. We find these answersin John 10.Something we must realize here is that Jesus is showing us >three< seperate types of shepherds.First type: Is a thief and a robber, so he tries to enter in some other way than by the door. He is not called of God, thus he is not known by the porter. The true sheep will not follow him, for they do not know his voice, and they flee from it. He is a hireling, again notice, not called of God, so he does not care for the sheepand when trouble comes he will flee, leaving the sheep alone, because he cares not for the sheep.Second: The called shepherd of a flock of sheep.He enters by the Door, for he is called of God to that particular flock. To him the porter opens the door to the flock. The sheep hear his voice and he calls his own sheep by name and he leads them out. Listen shepherd/pastor, YOU ARE TO KNOW YOUR SHEEP, You are you know them by name, NOT AS A FACE in the crowd. You know your sheep and you call them by name. The size of your flock must be gauged on you being able to know, personally,every single man, woman and child. If there are to many sheep in your flock to know this way, then its time to send another called shepherd with some of the sheep, who hear his voice down the road. This process is to repeat itself over and over as the need arises. This is the only way a shepherd can know his sheep, their names, their needs, the food, each one, as an individual requires. No other office of the ministry can take the place of the shepherd. Each one has its place in the body, and is necessary for the proper function of it, but only the shepherd has the calling to pastor the sheep.For you to lead, feed, protect, and be and ensample unto the sheep, you must know them well, as a true shepherd.Third: Who is really the First the one and only true Shepherd, Jesus Christ, The Chief Shepherd.He is the DOOR, and the Chief Shepherd of all the flocks of sheep. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the only Way onto the Father.He saves and gives life to the sheep. He gave His life for the sheep and all the sheep will be of one fold with Him as Shepherd. This all, for that, He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but it should be holy and without blemish. Eph.5:27.Have a blessed and glorious weekend in Him.Love to all,pastorfrin

RobertW wrote:We all want to get back to the NT model. Right? Its easy to talk it up, but we need some boots on the ground really ministering in these functions. The role of a pastor or 'shepherd' is one of tremendous stress and pain. the nay sayers had bit their tongues off had they known the lives of some of the men that they have put their tongue on. "It hath offended" they had said. Many have allowed their tongue to cause them to sin and have no clue. Like Mirriam and Moses. We need to be careful how we trifle in God's affairs. I thought I'd just bump this up again. I have always been astounded at my own pastor. I have criticised him both openly and discreetly, regarding things that he preaches on and church growth meathods that he employs, but whenever I have a problem, he's there, any time of the day or night. I have been been amazed at how someone can "preach it so wrong, and yet live it so right". Personally I would rather have that than the other way round.To all these nay sayers, may I ask do you drop everything everytime you receive a distress call? Do you have the guts to stand firm, while three hundred people with conflicting opinions tell you that you are wrong in your strategy? Do you spot every wolf that comes into the flock, or do you miss a few?A pastor is first human and then ordained. This debate reminds me of the ultimate expression of human selfishness. Put too children in a room with one toy, and tell them to share. Within an hour, I would almost gaurantee that you'd see the following principle at work, everyone wants justice, except when it comes to themselves.I am in no way trying to say that there is no standard, there is a high one, but don't foget that hot on the heels of God revealing His Ten Commandments to Israel, He was indetifying Himself as "the Lord thy God, merciful". How quickly we forget that. The mere fact that Christ warned us of false prophets, implies that there are true ones, and his solution to these "tares" in his "field" are to let them grow side by side with the "wheat". What's the matter, are we afraid to take Christ at his word?Anyway, that's my two cents.

I have not considered the shepherds in that repect. I have been trying to understand the shepherd analogy Jesus gave for a time now and that word, Pastor Frin, gavemuch meaning to it. Thank you. I think when we lose this type of shepherding model, as many have, we 'lord over,' and get greedy for size and money. What would you suggest the hireling is, Pastor Frin? And would you be willing to discuss your ideas on the 'tithe,' and it's implications in the church today?I appreciate your humble words, and am hungry for a daily fellowship with like minded believers. Internet is awesome, but what about flesh and blood, contending together in the spirit, for depths of the faith not seen in the 'four walls.'May the grace of Jesus abound to all...Rich

Amen, sister Annie,You beat me to the punch, probably better this way. Well, here goes pt. 3.Shepherds of the East would name their sheep when they were lambs, giving each one their own individual name. When the shepherd called their name they would come to the shepherd. They would only go to their shepherd, they would not come to the call of a stranger.Several flooks would pasture in the area of a central well. Each flock having their own shepherd. At a set time of day, the flocks would be led to the well, the cover removed, and all the sheep would be watered. During this time they would mingle together and become a largeflock, way to large for one shepherd to lead.After they were all watered, each shepherd wouldcall his sheep by name, they would answer the call of their shepherd and he would lead them topasture.This is one analogy Jesus was using in John 10.Since this is the Lord's description of a shepherd and his sheep, it should also be ours,today.The next analogy shows the shepherd leading the sheep, or lets say being an ensample to the sheep.We all need to take heed to this. A shepherd cannot, can't, will not work, is impossible to, lead the sheep from behind a desk.He cannot stand behind a pulpit and tell the sheep how to live in victory out in the pasture,and never go into the pasture himself. This can only be done by the shepherd going into the pasture with the sheep.Oh Yes, he must go out in the pasture and work.He must show the sheep how to live in the pastureand not only live, but live in victory.Pastor, your calling, if your called to be a shepherd, is to lead, feed, and protect the sheep. This is your calling and its without repentance. Belive me I know!Second is your job/profession, your means of support for yourself and your family. They are not the same. One BIG LIE is to think they are.Paul was called to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but his profession was a tentmaker.Peter, fisher of men- fishermanLuke, minister- physicianetc,etc,etc. see 2Thess.3:7-10You say, thats to hard. Then your not called to be a shepherd.Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. see Luke 17:1; 18:27. Matt.19:26;Mark 10:27.Why can't our Lord use a flock of ten, twenty,thirty,forty or fifty? Where does it say a flock is in the hundreds or thousands except they be sheep scattered without a shepherd?Why can't the gifts be in operation in a flock the shepherd can oversee, instead of mass confusion with everyone doing their own thing?Jesus said: where two or three are gathered together in My Name, their am I in the midst of them. Matt. 18:20.Jesus teaches us the sheep/shepherd concept, and if we would do it His way we would see the body,His body come together as it is intended. Neighbor would be ministering to neighbor and we would see the Lord move in our midst.Remember, to obey is better than sacrifice 1Sam 15:22.Without fairh it is impossible to please Him; for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Heb.11:6.Its not a method that causes God to move. Its faith and obedience to Him.Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord. Zech.4:62 Cor. 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.Love to all,pastorfrin

Is there a book out there, Pastor Frin, about this whole shepherd/sheep analogy. It is awesome and turning my view right side up. I am not a pastor but long to understand a true concept of the church and what Christ, our shepherd intended. MeAGain, you mentioned a book, is there one?May grace abound to allRich

Hi Rich,The hireling would be the type you refered to,one who would lord over and are greedy for size and money. We have all heard it said "power corrupts, and absolute power absolutly corrupts".A hireling is on a power trip, he loves to receive glory and praise, and his main purpose for doing what he does is to receive financial reward and the praises of man. Big is beautiful,knowing the sheep means nothing to them other than the ones who can do something for his cause.He will teach what the well to do want to hear,and his attention will most often abide with them. He will keep the ones who feather his nesthappy. Thus saith the Lord is avoided when it will cost gain. Since the majority of the sheep mean nothing to him, he will flee when they need him most. Its only a job to him, not a calling.If he ever was called, he long ago strayed fromit.The tithe: It would be best to cover this in another thread.I can share how we do things. Giving is taught,Old and New Testament. We stress 2 Cor. 9. We do not receive an offering, we have an offering boxin the church and each one gives as the Lord purposes in their heart.ALL that the Lord supplies goes to the meeting house, for heat, upkeep, and etc. Our little building, a little white church, built in 1825seats about 60 with the pews full. We have had around 120 with chairs set around sanctuary and a small overflow room. All other monies go for helping those in community, food, clothing, heat,medicines, and etc. Also missions, home and elsewhere. No one receives pay for their services.We believe in the Gifts of ministry and of the Holy Spirit, and they are allowed,taught,and encouraged. Our worship servive is open to the Holy Spirit and His leadings, as much as we can stay out of His way. During our teachings, everyone is encouraged to participate, a message is often paused to answerand expound on questions, and sharings. The best time to address something, is when its on a brother or sisters mind.Hope this answers some of your questions, all you need do is ask.All for His Glory and Praise,pastorfrin

Jesus said that if you want to be great in His kingdom, you have to be a servant to the rest. While I appreciate Pastorfin's comments in the opening thread, I must ask Him where are the Apostles, the Prophets, the Evangelists and the Teachers? You think genuine pastors have gotten a raw deal out of this monachistic religious format, what about these guys. Even to mention that one may be a prophet is to equate the poor man with crooked used car salesman or vacuum lawyers. In fact, most pastors completely ignore that GOD gave to the church Apostles, Evangelist, Prophets, and Teachers. Why is that, sir? Is it not because the pastoral office is first and foremost a livelyhood? Anyone with any kind of an anointing is deemed as a threat to the kingdom of and income for the "pastor". Why is it sir, that pastors set themselves up as the sole authority over the lambs when the bible plainly teaches that Christ is the head of the church? Why is it that pastors do all the things in your list that the sheep themselves are supposed to do. Aren't you, along with the other leaders supposed to train up the SAINTS for the work of the ministry? If this is so, and it surely is, why is it you will not empower others to do what you act like is wearing you out? The traditional church and it's greek orthodox format of so called "service" is nothing at all like the first century church. We don't need something new, sir. We need something old. We need to go back to Calvary and rediscover our roots. We need to do church like they did in the first century, and you will find that the results of souls won will dramatically improved. You may also find that Jesus becomes the center of attention, and not the pastor. Just some questions I had, with all due respect.Immersed in Christ Jesus,Onesimus for God

Onesimus4God,First, no where in these threads have I complained about my sacrifice as a pastor.Second, it is evident by your list of questions,that you have not read through these threads. If you had, 'your' questions would aready, for the most part, be answered. If, after you have read through these threads, you still have questions or accusations, I will be happy to attempt to answer them.I have one question for you.Where do you get your information about 'most' pastors, to be able to make such an all encompassing and all inclusive statement? As In fact, most pastors completely ignore that God gave to the church Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers.Have you conducted a survey of pastors throughoutthe world?Have you been to every church, assembly, and congregation?Does 'most' mean 5, 25, 50, 75, or 95 percent of all pastors?No, I suspect, as with your questions, you have a little knowledge about this subject, and with very little study or research, you have made some grand and hyperbolic statements. Very Dangerous. We must remember the words of our Lord in Luke 12:48. ( For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required ).I have no problem with questions, in fact I have encouraged questions. What I ask is that you read the entire thread and then we will talk. :-) Nothing without Him,pastorfrin

pastorfrin wrote:Have you conducted a survey of pastors throughoutthe world?Have you been to every church, assembly, and congregation?Does 'most' mean 5, 25, 50, 75, or 95 percent of all pastors?No, I suspect, as with your questions, you have a little knowledge about this subject, and with very little study or research, you have made some grand and hyperbolic statements. Very Dangerous. We must remember the words of our Lord in Luke 12:48. ( For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required ).I have no problem with questions, in fact I have encouraged questions. What I ask is that you read the entire thread and then we will talk.Amen. It seems that there are many who mistake a deep wounding offence that, to quote Keith Daiel, is "..sent by the devil to destroy [them], but used by God to make [them]..." for a "prophetic directive" to destroy ministry. It's sad really (ashamedly, I have been guilty in the past :oops:).At the end of the day, the words "weeds" and "tares" come to mind (in fact it has come to mind alot lately).

In our old house, the one I shared about in the thread,That I May Know Him, the house weshared with all the critters.We had an electrical problem, the electric meterkept burning up. The power company said it was because we were drawing to much electricity.Solution: A larger watt service, which meant anew breaker box, grounding, change over of wiresfrom old to new, permit, and inspection.I called the building inspector and he came over and looked at it. I knew a little about electrical but not much, soI simply asked the inspector, what do I have to do? He gave me a list of the materials I would need and the instructions on how to do the job.He said he could do it for us but it would be exspensive, and he felt if I followed his instructions I could do it ok. Just call if I had any questions.He said to call when I was done and he would inspect it, and call the electric company to do the change over.Did I tell him I did'nt like his way, so I was going to do it my way? No, of course not, he was the expert, a licensed electrician, the one withthe knowledge. I followed his instructions and used the material from the list and every thingcame out fine.Why? Because I did what I was instructed to do.Prov. Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspirationof God, and is profitable for doctrine; for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughlyfurnished unto all good works.We had been at our first pastorate for just a few months, when she showed up at the Sunday evening service. There she is pastor, thats her, she's the one we've been telling you about. Hope you are readyfor her.I was terrified, thanks Lord, just what I need,you know I have never cast out a demon before.You see, from the time we first arrived, the people of the church had been telling us about a demon possessed lady, who someday would come andchallenge the new pastor. It will happen they said, she has not missed one yet. She will turn the service into a mess and people will be running for the doors. Great, now what do I do?Lord are you listening? I said I have never castout a demon before.Then I heard Him, a still small voice, simply said, No you have'nt, and you, never will. I have, and I will again, just follow me and do what I say to do. Ok, I feel better now, I think.Well, we praised and worshipped the Lord in songand then it was time for the message.I believe the title was, Having Done All To Stand, Stand Therefore.Not far into the message the woman stood, and in a voice that caused the hair on the back of your neck to stand up, she said, you and word you teach from is not of God. I was freakin out, Lord now what? Then out of my mouth came these words, mamm, your statement about me can be debated, but God's Word cannot be, please sit down, and she did.Well I continued with the message, feeling muchbetter, and then, she stood again, and with more force repeated, you and the word you teach from is not of God.Again my mouth opened, and out came His Word,All scripture is given by inspiration of God and man shall live by every word of it.She laughed a hideous laugh and sat down.Again I continued the message and once again she stood and interrupted.This time, out of my mouth came these words, mamm, you are welcome to be here tonight, but the demon you brought with you is not.She immediately jumped to her feet and in that hair raising voice said, well if there is a demon in me, then you take it out, right now, andhere she came right up to the front of the churchand there we stood, face to face.I could see the look of terror on the congregations face, and I'm sure they could see it on mine. Then I got one of those looks frommy wife, that as much as said, well you did it again.What do I do now? Help Lord!Then it came, call for the elders, great idea,would the elders please come forward in obedienceto God's word and we will pray for this lady.Another hideous laugh.They slowly came forward, very slowly, and when I said, we are going to annoint her with oil andlay hands on her, they looked like they were all going to run away.So I annointed her with oil and these words came out, Father, in the name of Jesus Christ your Sonand our saviour, remove this demon from this lady and send it to hell.Then it happened, nothing, nothing? yes nothing,and then she let out a hugh sigh, a cry and the curtains upon the full lenght windows on each side of the church stood strait out. People were starting to stand, looking for the exits whenAll of a sudden her hands went into the air andshe begain to thank the Lord for delivering her.She was saved and filled with the Spirit and instead of people running to the exits, they ran to the altar. The whole church broke into a time of praise and worship to the likes I have never seen before or since.Why, because I had great faith? NO, and a thousand times NO.I simply did what He told me to do. He is the Expert, not me or you.People, I have watched this site and my heart cries at some of the responses that are givento questions asked by humble brothers and sisterssimply wanting to learn. There not asking for ourexpert opinions, or snide remarks they see and hear. They want to know, thus saith the Lord, and just because we may know in our head does not qualify us to answer for Him.Paul, with all the wisdom he possessed still chose these words,1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined not to know anythingamong you, save Jesus Christ and him crucified.We say we want to see the Lord move in our lives,in our families, and in our communities then maybe we should adopt Paul's humility, or betteryet how about the Lord's.Phil. 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6. Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:8. And being found in fashion as aman, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,even the death of the cross.Lets see, mind of Christ, no reputation, servant,humble and obedient unto death.Again Paul says,1 Cor. 2:16 For who hath known the mind of theLord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.We do? Then we must be as James 1:22 says,But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.When we become doers of the word, we will stop thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought,and realize, as Acts 17:28 states,For in Him we live, and move, and have our being.Its in Him and in His love the world will knowthat we are His disciples.John 13:34,35A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; As I have loved you, that ye also love one another.35. By this shall all men know that ye are mydisciples, If ye have love one to another.I cried today as I read a post from a person whocame on this site with great expectation, seeking the love and maturity of His disciples,she voiced her disappointment at what she found.Its by us loving one another they see Jesus. Isit not time they see just that.Jesus himself prayed this prayer for us,John 17:21 That they ALL may be ONE; as thou,Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they alsomay be ONE IN US; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.No, its not about us, how much we know or thinkwe know. Its not about our way of doing churchor the kind of worship service we have. Its not about how many gifts of the Spirit are in opperation in our services.Its about knowing the Lord Jesus Christ in such a way, that His Love is first and formost in ourmidst.For by this shall all men know that we are His!My Heart To You All,pastorfrin

Praise God, for His indescribable gift, that manifests itself in humble words. Thank you Pastor Frin. Have you ever, with blind, childlike faith, danced before the Lord, even without an inkling of feeling or emotion manifesting prior to? Strong on my mind has been a thought that worship is not in singing and then waiting for the feeling to move us, but rather a blind, unflinching faith to live and move and have our being in God. I see David dancing out of his clothes in the same fashion. He was exhilirated by His father and danced out of his pleasure for Him. Simply that.Pastor Frin, or anybody, what have we done with worship today, is it as pure and simple as what David did before the Lord? What clouds that joy, what complicates that simplicity? Help us, O God, to know you simply as a child, for then we are truly converted!Rich

Hi Rich,Just a short answer for now, really busy. :knockedout: Its not so much what we have done, its what we have'nt done.Worship is more than singing a song, its a lifestyle. Worship is doing, living, moving, and being in Him. Its doing all these things unto Him and in His name to the glory of the Father.We have neglected Him to serve ourselves, and when that happens, we miss Him. Why?Because He inhabits the praises of His people.Praise His Holy Name,pastorfrin