A Most Unreasonable Father

[image][img align=left]http://www.thewayback.net/Images/art/prodigal.jpg[/img]To me, the parable of the prodigal son is one of the most absurd stories in the Bible. A father is seen lavishly spoiling a rascally son who, a short time before, had wished his father dead. Well, that’s essentially how the son treated him when he demanded his inheritance. The son’s motivation to return was hardly honorable. It was his stomach more than his heart that prodded his inclination to return. He thought. “Why, maybe home isn’t totally bad – at least there is plenty food there for me.” What kind of an attitude is that! How much more self-centered can one get! Dare he take advantage of his father yet again?! The son did not willingly sacrifice anything – not the pleasures of the world, not cherished friends, no, nothing! He put nothing on the alter because he had nothing. He offered himself as a slave, mainly to get his stomach filled. There is no heroism or saintliness in this character. His remorse was half-hearted at best. And then, upon his return, he receives no reprimand from his father, no accountability, no request for amends, and not even any hint of, “Well, son, I hope you learned your lesson.”Clearly, this parable is not a model for parenting - it is far too lenient. But, perhaps, that is exactly the point. Jesus is trying to get across an idea that is radically “off the wall” - that defies all logic or sensibility. Jesus is not trying to teach us about parenting, but about the nature of God. And by setting up the characters as he did, he pushes the point far beyond good reason. My friends, we have a very unreasonable God! The sub-heading of the parable in most Bibles is “The Prodigal Son”, but I believe that heading takes all the “fizz” out of the story. It misses Jesus’ purpose for teaching it. It is better to label it, “A Most Unreasonable Father”. If we apply sound reason to this story, then the older brother should have been the hero. He was the only sensible character. He was the one who understood the importance of abiding by the law. He had a keen sense of justice and discipline. He could see how badly his dad was handling the scoundrel. Can’t you hear his mind thinking, “Now, how will that kind of treatment teach the fellow anything? He’ll just keep on taking advantage of his dad!” The older brother represents, not only the Jewish religious leaders, but something within each one of us. They, just like us, grew up in households that taught fairness, justice, and consequences for disobedience. They too remembered their “spankings” when they disobeyed. And they did not forget the horrible judgment that fell on their ancestors because of their failure to obey the law. However, the Jews had difficulty seeing beyond justice. They could not understand the power of God’s mercy - how effective it is in transforming lives. And that makes absolutely no sense to us either. Mercy seems like permissiveness. Surely it fails to teach the sinner a “lesson”. Surely mercy cannot make people want to obey God’s laws. Really the opposite is true. Guilt is not an effective motivator for change. Mercy is! And that makes no sense to us. But God understands humanity better than we do, thankfully! Mercy is God’s way for mankind, because it is the only thing that works. It is the provision through Christ for all who choose to abandon their useless ways. It is the message of the gospel. “For God has bound all men over to disobedience, so that he may have mercy on them all.” Rom. 11:32 What kind of sense is that?!That is Good News - and it is very unreasonable! We are called to proclaim that very message. May God keep us from the temptation to defile his remedy for sin with our penchant for human reasonableness. DianeImage: The Return of the Prodigal by Rembrandt

Good word sister Diane. When we follow human reason we will most often find ourselves contrary to the heart and character of the Father.Jeff

There is none like you -- no one else can touch my heart like you do -- and I can search for all eternity lord and find -- there is none like you... (Lady Unknown)God has never changed his mind concerning His Promises. They are Yea and Amen to those that believe. God is the same yesterday and forever. To doubt HIM is sin. All unbelief if sin. So we have to believe he can heal, save, fill with the Holy Ghost, and transform us altogether.Are You Ready? What For? That you might be so chastened by the lord, so corrected by HIM, that as you pass through the fire, as you pass through all temptations, you may come out as Jesus came out of the wilderness, filled with the spirit.Are You Ready? What For? That you may be so brought in touch with the Fathers will that you may know that whatsoever you ask, believing, you recieve. This is the promise, this is the reality God brings to us.Are You Ready? What For? That you might know yourself no more after the flesh, not yield to the flesh, but be quickened by the spirit, living in the spirit without condemnation, your testimony bright, cheerful, and full of life. This is the inheritance for you today.By Smith Wigglesworth-ANewInHim

Psa. 52:8 \tBut I am like a green olive tree in the house of God;\tI trust in the mercy of God forever and ever. Have you ever noticed that very little is said about the mercy of God. Most seem to believe that the grace of God and the mercy of God are one. Yet few seem to come to an understanding that is spoken of in Psalm 52:8. Sister Diane, I believe this precept is like the others that you bring up, little is taught because little is understood.God BlessIn ChristJeff

Rookie said, Have you ever noticed that very little is said about the mercy of God.Perhaps because voices of the "older brother" still linger in the conscience. I would like to further examine Rom. 11:32 "For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."There are many parallel references, and I would like any of you to post them if you know them. Ex: 'He gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear. Rom 11:8I think King David understood God mercy, and that's why he prayed for sinners: "May their table become a snare, and a trap, May their eyes becoem darkened so that they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." Rom. 11:8In other words: "may they be LOCKED IN THE PRISON of their disobedience." Rom. 11:32 ISVWhy?.. so that God could HAVE MERCY ON THEM!These days what we often hear about God's judgment is downright ugly and unhelpful. It is always about disaster falling in some way. Not only that, the way it is persented gives little hope. It is fatalistic. I ask, where is the GOOD NEWS message in that. Where is the mercy?Perhaps many Christians (and professing prophets) are grossly misunderstanding God's judgmnet - and do not see it as the path to God's mercy. Nor do they do not view it as something that is going on WITHIN the sinner. (bound over to disobedience)Wny would Paul say, "Oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God.! How unsearchable his JUDGMENTS(!!!!!!!!!)and his paths beyond tracing out! Rom 11:33This sounds like he marvels at God's judgements. Maybe we are on to something big here! .. new insight? Any thoughts?Diane

The son’s motivation to return was hardly honorable. It was his stomach more than his heart that prodded his inclination to return. He thought. “Why, maybe home isn’t totally bad – at least there is plenty food there for me.” What kind of an attitude is that! How much more self-centered can one get! Dare he take advantage of his father yet again?!The son did not willingly sacrifice anything – not the pleasures of the world, not cherished friends, no, nothing! He put nothing on the alter because he had nothing. He offered himself as a slave, mainly to get his stomach filled. There is no heroism or saintliness in this character. His remorse was half-heated at best. I see something very different in this story. I see that the Son DID come to the end of Himself. He then realized that although he sinned greatly against heaven and his father, that his father was a man of mercy. Surely, he would allow him to become a servant so that he would then have his needs met. When he came to his father, he was REPENTANT, begging just to be allowed in his house---as a servant. His demanding nature was GONE. Though he KNEW he was a son, he did not demand to be treated as a son, but was willing to give that up to be a servant to His father. That to me, is laying your life upon the altar. He did forsake all---most of all his pride---to return to the Father, asking only for his mercy and receiving so much more. Our "Life" is what the Father wants. That is what we need to put on the altar---and the son did, in my opinion.When one "comes back", at the end of himself/herself, willing ONLY to be a servant, demanding nothing more, the Father restores---JOYFULLY!! That is such a wonderful promise to those who belong to the Lord, yet go astray, abusing the "inheritance" and living worldly. When we come to the end of ourselves, repentant and broken, returning to the Father in such a condition, there is full acceptance and restoration!!!! Blessings in Him, Cindy

I praise Him for these forums again!

he was REPENTANT,Thank you, Cindy. That is the entire point. Repentance is turning around, facing a new direction, and that is what the son did - nothing more. It doesn't seem like much, as you say, but it was just what the Father wanted. ( I'm trying to paint the story through the eyes of the older brother - in order to help us identify with the possibility of "older brother" thinking within us. Repentance does not impress the "older brother" He was looking for justice and good behavior) The son, repented, even before he had full awareness of his sinful nature, and just how seriously he sinned against the Father. But it was just the beginning. Oh how amazing is God's mercy!Notice, that first the father bound him over to disobedience just like it says in Romans 11:32Diane

The son did not willingly sacrifice anything – not the pleasures of the world, not cherished friends, no, nothing! He put nothing on the alter because he had nothing. He offered himself as a slave, mainly to get his stomach filled. There is no heroism or saintliness in this character. His remorse was half-heated at best. This is where I differed with you Diane. I DO believe the son's repentance is genuine, not half hearted. I believe when he came back to the Father he was ready to FULLY submit to the Father----he was FULLY committed to being his servant. That is TRUE repentance and most of us would agree that it takes this type of heart attitude to be Fully repentant---we can never come to the Father with "conditions" and convince ourselves truthfully that we are truly repentant.As for the older brother, he, although a partaker also of his Father's grace, didn't understand it or understand His father's mercy directed at the erring AND repentant brother. Also, he just did not get the importance to his Father of reconciliation and restoration.......he kept his eyes on the past sins of his brother and not on the "new" son who leaving his sinful life behind, returned home broken, needing mercy, and willing to serve completely without condition.How the Father responds is how ALL true believers should respond to those who have left their sin behind and stand before God and the Body of Christ broken and ready for reconcilition and restoration. If we respond as the older brother does, not accepting one who has left their sin behind, then we are forsaking the calling to be "ministers of reconciliation".Blessings in Him, Cindy

Diane do you see Paul's admonition "to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" 1 Cor 5:5 ASV as a 'locking away' in their disobedience?I have thought of this as an admonition to the church to cease praying protection over a brother who persists in disobedience so that the consequences of his sin would come upon him that he would become desparate enough, like the prodigal, to repent.Jeff

Ever concidered that this parable is about the church?At the beginning we were given our inheritance - the Holy Spirit, but we used Him for our own ends and finally we are knocking on the door of the world asking them to help us, They will help if we agree to go against our principles and turn our churches into places where they feel comfy. But when the church sees it's backslidden state and returns to God, He will bring us back into our full inheritance.This is not my idea, its from a guy called B.H. Clendennen, many of his sermons are on this site.When he explains it, I think it makes a lot of sense.And I do also agree that it applies to individuals who turn back to God.Just my two centsSte

Diane and Lastblast;Do we know from scriptures how long this "Prodigal Son" was away from his father and from his mother. I can just hear the other siblings desireing in there heart of hearts for this "Prodigal Son" to recieve Judgement.Do we know from scripture what God in heaven was doing in this Prodigal Son's heart in his life.We take for granted the workings of God. We look at this story and right away we focus on the label and on the forgiveness of the father that we forget to look at the relationship the son must have had with his parents to know that as bad as it might have gotten for him, as disobedient has he might have been. He was certain of his fathers and his mothers love toward him.I don't believe that not once did his father and mother stop praying for him and for his protection. If they did, he might have never been able to come home.Becareful what you pray for...

I DO believe the son's repentance is genuine, not half heartedNowhere do I say that his REPENTNACE was half- hearted. Not for a minute did he stop half way, or turn back and face the old way. Not for a minute did he long for the "delicacies of the foreign land". His repentance was full and it was genuine. I said his REMORSE (conviction of sin) was half-hearted. That is not the same thing as repentance. I think these words are used interchangeably when they are two different things. The prodigal was not motivated to repent based on such sins as harming the family reputation, etc etc. That awareness would, no doubt follow. How many come to Christ because they are desperate, not because they feel badly that they were selfish, or whatever. God accepts them in their as yet unrefined condition. Am I making sense?Diane

I don't believe that not once did his father and mother stop praying for him and for his protection. If they did, he might have never been able to come home.Figtreeleaf, you add a very significant point. The son REMEMBERED what his father was like. I believe that God has placed his love into the fabric of life in many ways, and those who are willing will see it. Here is another thought: Imagine if when the prodigal had returned, he would have met his older brother first. not once did his father and mother stop praying for him and for his protectionSometimes this is the best way that we can intercede for the sinner. It is our gift of mercy to him: we are pleading for God's mercy, when we know he deserves judgment. Diane

Sister Diane wrote:Wny would Paul say, "Oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God.! How unsearchable his JUDGMENTS(!!!!!!!!!)and his paths beyond tracing out! Rom 11:33This sounds like he marvels at God's judgements. Listen to all that is spoken of judgements in Psalm 119...Psa. 119:7 \tI will praise You with uprightness of heart,\tWhen I learn Your righteous judgments. Psa. 119:13 \tWith my lips I have declared\tAll the judgments of Your mouth. Psa. 119:20 \tMy soul breaks with longing\tFor Your judgments at all times. Psa. 119:30 \tI have chosen the way of truth;\tYour judgments I have laid before me.Psa. 119:39 \tTurn away my reproach which I dread,\tFor Your judgments are good. Psa. 119:52 \tI remembered Your judgments of old, O LORD,\tAnd have comforted myself. Psa. 119:62 \tAt midnight I will rise to give thanks to You,\tBecause of Your righteous judgments. Psa. 119:66 \tTeach me good judgment and knowledge,\tFor I believe Your commandments. Psa. 119:75 \tI know, O LORD, that Your judgments are right,\tAnd that in faithfulness You have afflicted me. Psa. 119:84 \tHow many are the days of Your servant?\tWhen will You execute judgment on those who persecute me? Psa. 119:102 I have not departed from Your judgments,\t\tFor You Yourself have taught me. Psa. 119:106 I have sworn and confirmed\t\tThat I will keep Your righteous judgments. Psa. 119:108 Accept, I pray, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD,\t\tAnd teach me Your judgments. Psa. 119:120 My flesh trembles for fear of You,\t\tAnd I am afraid of Your judgments. Psa. 119:137 Righteous are You, O LORD,\t\tAnd upright are Your judgments. Psa. 119:156 Great are Your tender mercies, O LORD;\t\tRevive me according to Your judgments. Psa. 119:160 The entirety of Your word is truth,\t\tAnd every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever. Psa. 119:164 Seven times a day I praise You,\t\tBecause of Your righteous judgments. Psa. 119:175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise You;\t\tAnd let Your judgments help me. These Scriptures speak of a personal relationship between the Father and a son. There is individual instruction going on here in Psalm 119. These judgements are tied in with the thought spoken of in these Scriptures...Deut. 8:5 You should know in your heart that as a man chastens his son, so the LORD your God chastens you. 2Sam. 7:14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. Job 5:17 \t“Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects;\tTherefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. Job 33:19 \t“Man is also chastened with pain on his bed,\tAnd with strong pain in many of his bones, Job 34:31 \t“For has anyone said to God,\t‘I have borne chastening;\tI will offend no more; Psa. 118:18 \tThe LORD has chastened me severely,\tBut He has not given me over to death. Prov. 3:11 \tMy son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction; Heb. 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:\t“My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,\tNor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;6 \tFor whom the LORD loves He chastens,\tAnd scourges every son whom He receives.”Heb. 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Heb. 12:10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Rev. 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.I believe mercy is understood more deeply as one experiences the hand of God as spoken of in the above Scriptures.In ChristJeff

Diane,Granted, but just as we have several types of judgment there are several types of sin.Quote:When one "comes back", at the end of himself/herself, willing ONLY to be a servant, demanding nothing more, the Father restores---JOYFULLY!! That is such a wonderful promise to those who belong to the Lord, yet go astray, abusing the "inheritance" and living worldly. When we come to the end of ourselves, repentant and broken, returning to the Father in such a condition, there is full acceptance and restoration!!!! Blessings in Him, CindyWhat happens if you are not living a wordly life, on the contrary you are seeking God more then ever?

Diane,Abide I hope you don't mind If I use your quotes.Quote;Among the many judgments mentioned in Scripture, seven are invested with special significance. These are:(1) the judgment of the believer’s sins in the cross of Christ ( John 12:31) –Now is the judgement of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.(2) the believer’s self-judgment (1 corn 11:31) – For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.(3) the judgment of the believer’s works (2 corn. 5:10) – For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things d one in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (4) the judgment of the individual Gentiles at the return of Christ to the earth (Matt. 25:32) All the nations will be gathered before Him, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.(5) the judgment of Israel at the return of Christ to the earth (Ezek 20:37)- I will make you pass under the rod,, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant.(6) the judgment of angels after the 1000 years (Jude 6) And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgement of the great day.(7) Here, the judgment of the wicked dead with which the history of the present earth ends.This is where I am at, in regards to judgment.-(1) the judgment of the believer’s sins in the cross of Christ ( John 12:31) –Now is the judgement of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.-(2) the believer’s self-judgment (1 corn 11:31) – For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.-(3) the judgment of the believer’s works (2 corn. 5:10) – For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things d one in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. God Bless You DianeI hope and pray that you can see and hear my heart.

Diane, thanks for this refreshing view from a new angle on this parable. I've always tended to view this story from the prodigal's eyes. I love this parable, there's so many good nuggets if one keeps on digging.It's ironic that what is truly unreasonable is the older brother's anger and his unwillingness to join the feast. Sadly this resentment seems to be so natural to us.In Christ,Ron

What happens if you are not living a worldly life, on the contrary you are seeking God more then ever?I'm not sure what you are asking? Are you asking about the older brother who remained with the Father and did not live a 'riotous" life? Blessings in Him, Cindy

Br or Sis Figtreelives wrote:Among the many judgments mentioned in Scripture, seven are invested with special significance.What about the significance of this judgement spoken of in Scripture. Psalm 119:64 \tThe earth, O LORD, is full of Your mercy;\tTeach me Your statutes. 65 \tYou have dealt well with Your servant,\tO LORD, according to Your word. 66 \tTeach me good judgment and knowledge,\tFor I believe Your commandments. 67 \tBefore I was afflicted I went astray,\tBut now I keep Your word. AlsoPsalm 11975 \tI know, O LORD, that Your judgments are right,\tAnd that in faithfulness You have afflicted me. 76 \tLet, I pray, Your merciful kindness be for my comfort,\tAccording to Your word to Your servant. 77 \tLet Your tender mercies come to me, that I may live;\tFor Your law is my delight. In these Scriptures we find that mercy is something this Psalmist understood because of God's judgement in his life. What is the substance of this judgement? How does it impact the life of those who receive judgements from Him?In ChristJeff

The following quote did not come from this thread, but from a friend. I thought it was worthy of consideration. I don't dispute the possibility: I think you construct a picture of the prodigal son that is not necessarily true, albeit possible. Diane

Here are some definititions of the word, Judgment. I think that we tend to focus on only one aspect:Judgment: - a decision or opinion given after judging (anyone been to judging competitions?) -sentence pronounced -the process of forming an opinion by discerning and comparing -misfortune regarded as a sign of divine displeasure -the final judging of mankind by GodDiane

Am I wrong here, or do I feel a beautiful Parable that our Lord told us, has been tainted somewhat by filthy rags ? Diane, could you tell me what I'm feeling by my questions ... in other words ... I need your gift with words right now, because all I have are feelings at present.Annie, I think you know "who" I am talking about without me saying - it is the "older brother". EDIT: The parable was spoken directly to the older brother.Frankly, one reason I wrote the article the way I did was in an attemt to break through that wall - but only God can do that. (Yet, I'll consider it if I am shown to have been unfair in my portrayal of the prodigal.) ... back to your question: Why do we fear Mercy so much?Because we believe that mercy will make the sinner feel justified in continuing on in his sinful life. We are addicted to LAW --- and that produces filthy rags. Diane

My favourite person in this story is the elder brother, perhaps because I was also the eldest child in my family, but, more because despite his petulance (also reminds me of myself!) and his unwillingness to go in to the party, he had a wonderful realisation in store, because of what his little brother had got up to - and been through.Dorcas, I believe that the older brother was indeed the audience Christ intended this parable to be for. And, if we don't see through the "older brother" part of us, we will miss the "punch". I sure tried hard to present the story the way the older brother would see it - through HIS EYES." Older brothers" just don't "get it" - so the story aught to produce a certain degree of confusion and discomfort. At some point we have to identify with the younger brother, but I think that happens through life's circumstances, and in God's time.And only when we GET IT, will the rest of scripture come alive as never before. After all, the parable is a mini-picture of entire scripture. "God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on them all"Why do we keep on putting out "safety nets" to prevent people from coming to the place of neediness. God didn't do that? I think that there is always a temptation to use the LAW as a safety net. Could I be right?That brings us to consider the purpose of divine judgment: it is the path to mercy. How blessed are the judgments of God. Diane

We can flip back and forth to being the elder brother even in one thread if we're not grounded in Grace, Love, Gratitude and what Salvation is really based on.Oh, how I pray that God will help me KNOW his Grace, and cure me of my older brother tendencies. Wish we could all get together for a Prodigal's Party today and go right through the weekend ... the whole SI gang together rejoicing for being amongst the Forgiven .[image][img align=left]http://www.thewayback.net/Images/art/balloons.jpg[/img]Let's have a party!! No party poopers allowed!This is maybe the best definition of true revival - the PRODIGAL PARTY.There is rejoicing in the presence of the angelsover one sinner who repents." Luke 15:10And when she finds it she calls her friends together and says,"rejoice with me. I have found my lost coin." Lk 15:9"He joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home.Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, "rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep." Lk 15:5

Sister Annie wrote:Why do we fear Mercy so much ?I keep thinking that, he who is forgiven much, loves much and mercy produces a gratitude and love that makes the forgiven one desire to PLEASE the One Who forgave them.Judgements that are brought into our lives by God, are part of the substance which defines His love for us. The psalmist feared God's judgements upon himself, yet as a child he began to learn how God loves him. The substance of God's judgements teach what is not right in the heart and mind of the one God loves. As one receives the chasening of the Lord, one also learns of the things that seperate us from Him and cause us to sin against one another. As the Lord teaches us His ways, as a loving Father, we learn of a love that causes light to shine upon our dark minds. As we come to the point, where the prodigal son recognized his hopelessness in the things he pursued, we too remember the peace that we once had. We too return to His doorstep. When this happens, our Father, waiting with arms open, receives us with joy and gladness. These moments bring to us an appreciation or understanding of the word "mercy." The depth of understanding, of realizing His mercy grows in our hearts as we are conformed into the image of His Son. These things that the psalmist learns to cherish in his own life, the judgements, followed by the mercy, are the things which cause our hearts to sing. To those who continually grow by receiving His judgements, to those who are forgiven much, they also are now ready to forgive much and thus be delivered spiriually from the mistakes, or the lack of mercy of the old brother in us. Mercy, like repentance is something that God can only bring. As a believer, we must only continue in the path that He has brought light upon Today. Submitting to the leading of His Spirit will bring to us the same understanding that the psalmist speaks of in Psalm 119.In ChristJeff

I received this email: Yesterday when I went to pick up Luke (6yo) at the Church Bible camp, he had a drawing that he had worked on called a FORGIVENESS BUBBLE . On this drawing there were some children playing basketball. When I asked him what it was about, he said that it was an imaginary picture of a boy pushing him down and cracking his head. He would be out cold for a month or so. When he wakes up he would forgive the other boy. “But the boy would sure have to say a lot of “Sorry's” to him!! “ Luke must not have listened to the whole story at church or decided just to miss the point. Of course, we had the long forgiveness talk afterward - but like in your article, it seems these attitudes are planted in us very young. I praise God for his great mercy! Submitting to the leading of His Spirit will bring to us the same understanding that the psalmist speaks of in Psalm 119.Might I suggest that we are all born the "older brother" and that colors everything we hear about mercy and forgiveness, just like this little boy. Even the entire Bible and our understanding of God is tainted in our minds till we have been set free by grace. Diane

Isn't that the whole point of the prodigal story... the younger son had to go away and spend his natural inheritance before there was any chance of him understanding his Father's higher, unconditional love? It cannot be theorised about or 'taught'.Exactly, I think that was the point I was trying to make. With that in view, I think that we have to be careful not to picture the older brother as a villain. He is just natural man. Can we expect any different? Personally, I have often felt sorry for the older brother - I know, personally how hard it it is to get past the blindness. Has anyone ever considered that the Older Brother might be Jesus? In position: yes. In destiny: no The firstborn in Egypt was struck down. The first born of the Israelites was dedicated to God, and redeemed by an offering.God's first born was struck down. He was also the offering. One first born became death, the other life. How tragic that the firstborn in the parable did not know his firstborn inheritance in Christ. Apart from the atoning sacrifice, he will be struck down.I do see the older brother as the law, the Old CovenantAbraham's firstborn:Ishmael-not the child of the Promise. the "law brings wrath". Rom. 4:15 so.... two kinds of firstborns - the law, and Christ. Is that where you are going with this, Loveslave?Diane

Sister Diane wrote: Even the entire Bible and our understanding of God is tainted in our minds till we have been set free by grace. The type of judgement, correction, that is revealed in Psalm 119 is meant to remove that which taints our minds. The grace of God brings change of heart and mind to those who listen to the Holy Spirit. As one learns from the Father one will be more like the Son. Mercy is only understood through repentance. What is learned from the chasening of the Lord is not pleasant but afterwards it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. To show godly mercy to another is depended upon how much we have learned from the Father's discipline. Mercy reveals to us the faithfulness of Christ to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. In ChristJeff

Has anyone ever considered that the Older Brother might be Jesus?Sometimes it seems as if our minds run right off the rails, and this statement is quite close to the edge. But a brand new related thought jumped out at me: It is very common to view God/Christ as the older brother - in that we see our heavenly Father through our legal mindset. And we consequently see his Son that way. It is an imbalanced view of our Lord and keeps people distant from God. (like the son who was distanced from his Father)Diane

Sister Dorcas wrote:Isn't that the whole point of the prodigal story... the younger son had to go away and spend his natural inheritance before there was any chance of him understanding his Father's higher, unconditional love? It cannot be theorised about or 'taught'.In line with this thread, taken from the view of the Father, what do we find in the Father's action of not stopping the son from walking away from Him? In ChristJeff

Sis wrote:Permission to grow up?Scripturally speaking, would this represent a trial? In ChristJeff

what do we find in the Father's action of not stopping the son from walking away from Him?Romans 1:24. " "He gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts... "Rom. 1:26 God gave them overto shameful lustsRom 1:28 Since they did ot think it worthwhile to retain the knowledgs of God he gave them over to a depraved mind." This is divine judgment: letting sinners do what they want. "When this happens, (judgment) you will know that I am the Sovereign Lord."[Ez. 24:24]"Surely you will fear me and accept correction." [Zeph. 3:7]Consider these words by Soren Kierkegaard:When Christianity entered into the world,people were not Christians,and the difficulty wasto become a Christian.Nowadays the difficultyin becoming a Christianis that one must ceaseto become a Christian.One best becomes a Christianwithout "Christianity."Not until a person has becomeso wretched that his only wish,his only consolation,is to die--not until thendoes Christianity truly begin. Diane

Proverbs 15:5 \tA fool despises his father’s instruction,\tBut he who receives correction is prudent. 6 \tIn the house of the righteous there is much treasure,\tBut in the revenue of the wicked is trouble. 7 \tThe lips of the wise disperse knowledge,\tBut the heart of the fool does not do so. 8 \tThe sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,\tBut the prayer of the upright is His delight. 9 \tThe way of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,\tBut He loves him who follows righteousness. 10 \tHarsh discipline is for him who forsakes the way,\tAnd he who hates correction will die. Might this Scripture also be a parrallel to the parable of the prodigal son?In ChristJeff

Dorcas posted these verses: 1 the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. Something is really jumping out in these verses. I think that these verses are talking about all of us for the first part of our lives. As long as we are a child we are all in the position of the older brother - preserved by the law. It is not a sin to be a child, is it? But only if the child is at a point where he should be growing up, and refuses to claim his inheritance then he is he guilty. The older Brother seemed to have been entitled to the blessings of his inheritance, but had refused to take it. For many years when I thought I was born again, I really wasn't. I was a child, still under law.(though physically an adult) In the fullness of time God revealed that I was still a child, and was ready to claim my eternal inheritance. Now that I think back, that is a very amazing story (which I won't go into now). I add though, that part of that journey included folk on a house-church discussion forum that I had joined that week. It was an awesome weekend - the Spirit swept freely across the entire forum, and touched us all. Diane

Ever considered that this parable is about the church?At the beginning we were given our inheritance - the Holy Spirit, but we used Him for our own ends and finally we are knocking on the door of the world asking them to help us, They will help if we agree to go against our principles and turn our churches into places where they feel comfy. But when the church sees its backslidden state and returns to God, He will bring us back into our full inheritance. I think it IS about the church, but I see the church as the older brother (at first) – rejecting its “ unruly younger brother” – and even driving him away. I see a parallel message in Ezekiel 34 where he talks about the shepherds (those who were given the goods) who ruin the pasture for the sheep and thus they wander into bad pastures. God chastises them: “Must you trample on the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet? You shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns Jesus doesn’t say in the parable, but it is clear from Ez 34 that the sheep wander away because the shepherds have ruined the pasture. If we put these references together, we’d have to say that there was a reason that the younger brother took off. He was constantly harangued and ostracized by his Older Brother who felt himself so much more important and righteous. Can’t you see some family dynamics going on? What about the church – muddying the water with religiosity, superiority, and legalism? Solution: The older brother must become as the younger brother – at a place where he sees his lostness. This brings us back to our references earlier to divine judgment. Though we lament the demise of our present-day church, and we see the sheep going to the world for food, we can be assured that God is in it. God “turns them over to disobedience so that he can have mercy on them all.” What has been happening to the younger brothers in the church, will also happen to the older brother – they will become dispersed and feed off the world till they get hungry. Then the Good Shepherd will “send down showers in season. There will be showers of blessing” Ez. 34:26Diane

Sister Diane wrote:f we put these references together, we’d have to say that there was a reason that the younger brother took off. He was constantly harangued and ostracized by his Older Brother who felt himself so much more important and righteous. Can’t you see some family dynamics going on? What about the church – muddying the water with religiosity, superiority, and legalism? I don't see this in spoken of in Luke 15:11-32...Jesus is teaching that the Father is faithful and just. In His faithfulness He in not willing that any should be lost.Scripture teaches that both sons received their inheritance. Luke 15:11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, “Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. Then the younger gave into pursuing "prodigal living." This younger son is declared to have lost his way. Scripture teach that the Father viewed this lost son to be "dead." 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”In this Scripture above we find that the nature of our Father never changes. He is both faithful and just. The focal point of this parable is repentance. The older brother has a wrong attitude about his brother's sin. We are to be merciful as our Father is merciful. The older son always shared in the same inheritance as the younger brother. Luke 15:31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. There is no doubt about what this Scripture teaches.In ChristJeff

For much of my life the last section of the Prodigal Parable (about the older brother) was like an appendage. It didn’t grab my attention. Yet, I now realize that the father’s final words are addressed directly to the older brother: " 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "Going back to the beginning of Luke 15 it becomes clear that Jesus was addressing the religious leaders, whom the older brother represented: Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them." The Amplified Bible says, [notorious and [a]especially wicked] sinners...Clearly the leaders did not notice that the sinners where there to listen to Jesus. They were blinded by an obsession with the sinners’ “defilement.” The prodigal parable is the third in a set of picture-stories: The first one defines the “sinner” as the lost sheep: Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbours together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'It seems like the shepherd here is initiating the search. That reminds me of Ezekiel 34:11 where the Shepherd himself travels all over, through the rugged terrain, to rescue the lost sheep that are, “caught in the thicket of sin”. 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them…. The second picture-story in Luke 13 is of a lost woman seeking a coin. She again portrays God as the one who initiates the search. Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbours together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.' It is breath-taking to think that we are not lost in the sea of humanity, forgotten by God! That is especially assuring to those who feel like they have failed God and wasted their life. Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Lk 12 :6God sees the little sparrow fall…I know he loves me too. 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.Can you imagine that even when God rescues one person, there is a big party in heaven!!!! To the Pharisees these thoughts did not register in their minds. They could not see the sinner through God’s eyes – precious in his sight, and worth saving for eternity. Jesus’ choice of associates disqualified him in the eyes of the religious leaders; yet his choice portrayed the heart of God. Jesus’ actions also condemned the leaders. Ezekiel’s piercing words were still sizzling - hot off heaven’s press: You have not strengthened the weak healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no-one searched or looked for them. …....so…I myself will search my sheep .... continued...

Most of us who are in the church probably at one time or another have said, “The reason people are leaving the church is because there is so much in our world to attract them.” But we rarely express any comments about personal accountability. Yet, scripture doesn’t leave us off the hook. Those who have the knowledge of Scripture, the training, the resources, the facilities, the experience, and, generally speaking, the blessings of God, are held responsible. We must ask ourselves, “Have we been muddying the water, trampling the fields, and treating the sheep badly?” We read further in Ezekiel 34: “Must you trample on the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet? You shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns I find it interesting that the lectionary left out these unpleasant verses in Ezekiel 34 and only included the nice ones. But they ARE the Word of God. Jesus, himself, held the religious leaders accountable. We must include these verses in order to get a vision of God’s concern. Only then will we understand the depth of Jesus’ anger when he turned over the tables in the temple. Today we see many beautiful “temples”, old and new, but they are tottering spiritually. While people today are no longer forced to adhere to the church or be controlled by a powerful religious hierarchy, we still see the muddying of the water, ie, the tampering with God’s word, or muddying it with legalism. We see bullying, control, and dominance - even in very subtle ways. We see many sheep who have wandered away from the church and from God because they are starving and are looking elsewhere for food. We also see passive sheep who just hang around. There is no sparkle in their eye, no fiery passion for God. Their wounds are anesthetized behind religious ritual. In their souls they are caught in the thicket of sin: they have rejected God because they were never fed. They are seeking food in barren pastures. It is time to be angry. Last Sunday my minister preached a sermon on righteous anger, based on the account of Jesus purging the temple. The message radiated with the fragrance of Christ, because it expressed his heartbeat. Clearly, today, the situation is in need of an overhaul.Surely it is not too farfetched an idea to assume that the younger brother in the parable wanted to leave because he was fed up with the way his older brother treated him. That thought is harmonious with the broader picture in scripture. We now arrive at two conclusions: 1. We are accountable. “… from everyone who has been given much,much will be demanded;and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.” Lk. 12:482. God can and is working in spite of human failures. And that is hope for all of us. Somehow God brings us to a point of crisis, just like he did for the younger brother. We can be assured that our Father’s hand is in it all. He is seeking us, and his arms are stretched out, ready to receive us when we turn around and face him.And this is how change happens, how God's kingdom is built - one "sheep"/ "coin"/ "sparrow"/ "prodigal" at at time. Diane

Sister Diane quoted:Ezekiel 34:You have not strengthened the weak healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no-one searched or looked for them. …....so…In this section of Scripture God condemns the shepherds because they have not cared for their sheep. "You have not strengthened the weak healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost."This condemnation focuses on the condition of the heart and not the physical aspects of His people. Why are they sick? Why are they injured? Why are they lost? The same situation existed during the times when Jesus walked among them. So these religious leaders were under the same condemnation that those of Ezekiel's time received. The religious leaders of that time had problems with the fairness of God. Ezek. 33:10 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: “Thus you say, ‘If our transgressions and our sins lie upon us, and we pine away in them, how can we then live?” ’ 11 Say to them: “As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ Ezek. 33:12 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, “You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live. Ezek. 33:17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the LORD is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, “The way of the LORD is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.” Throughout the total of Scripture we hear this, " I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.” Because the shepherds of backsliden Israel did not obey God, the result of their disobedience is stated...Ezek. 34:7 “Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “surely because My flock became a prey, and My flock became food for every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, nor did My shepherds search for My flock, but the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flock”— 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD! 10 Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand; I will cause them to cease feeding the sheep, and the shepherds shall feed themselves no more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouths, that they may no longer be food for them.” This judgment also came upon the Pharisees of Jesus' time. These men failed to do the things that those of Ezekiel's time failed to do. Sin seperates us from our Lord...if one is lost and dead living according to the carnal mind, and they continue to rebel against God, there comes a time where He will turn them over to their own destruction. " I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.” It is a very glad moment when the lost sheep repents and turns to the Shepherd. In ChristJeff

Sister Diane wrote:Yet, scripture doesn’t leave us off the hook. Those who have the knowledge of Scripture, the training, the resources, the facilities, the experience, and, generally speaking, the blessings of God, are held responsible. We must ask ourselves, “Have we been muddying the water, trampling the fields, and treating the sheep badly?Yes, many shepherds have treated the sheep badly. Many have muddied the water. The sheep become weak and sick because they drink the muddied water. Listen to what God teaches Ezekiel about the gravity by which God hold the wathchman, the shepherd accountable...Ezek. 33:1 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, 3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’ God was bringing judgment to Israel because of willful disobedience. God called men to warn His people of the coming judgment so that some might turn and live. Ezek. 33:7 “So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. 8 When I say to the wicked, “O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. Here God directs Ezekiel to people whom God selects. Do you see the personal one on one responsibility God places on His shepherds? Listen to how the shepherds muddied the water of Ezekiel's day,Ezek. 33:23 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 24 “Son of man, they who inhabit those ruins in the land of Israel are saying, ‘Abraham was only one, and he inherited the land. But we are many; the land has been given to us as a possession.’ Ezek. 33:25 “Therefore say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘You eat meat with blood, you lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood. Should you then possess the land? 26 You rely on your sword, you commit abominations, and you defile one another’s wives. Should you then possess the land?” ’ Did not the Pharisees suffer from the same dillusion? Do not the shepherds of today, by what they preach, bring about the same judgment on themselves? The Father in the parable of the prodigal son speaks clearly to the condition of the lost son. Yes the Father brings hard times on those whom He has called His sons, so that they may come to the end of themselves and cry out to the Father for His salvation. There are many that travel along the broad path to destruction. Those who drink the muddy water suffer greatly. Surely it is not too farfetched an idea to assume that the younger brother in the parable wanted to leave because he was fed up with the way his older brother treated him. That thought is harmonious with the broader picture in scripture. You may believe what you want in this matter, yet the discription of this event places the blame on another and not self. Yes God calls men to shepherd as Jesus reveals to them the way in which they should go... but squarely places the burden on each individual. To believe or not to believe...Ezek. 14:12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying: 13 “Son of man, when a land sins against Me by persistent unfaithfulness, I will stretch out My hand against it; I will cut off its supply of bread, send famine on it, and cut off man and beast from it. 14 Even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness,” says the Lord GOD. In ChristJeff

Isaiah 358 \tA highway shall be there, and a road,\tAnd it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.\tThe unclean shall not pass over it,\tBut it shall be for others.\tWhoever walks the road, although a fool,\tShall not go astray. This precept covers all who will ever live...The Father has declared it to be so..In ChristJeff

In the teaching of Jesus to the Pharisees we see that Jesus' heart is for those who are lost. It is God's desire that all should come to repentance. Those who have not backsliden sometimes look at those who have and ask themselves, "How can God forgive them?" Like Jonah, one might say in their own heart, "They are not worthy to have what I have." Yet in the prodigal son, we find that God does not see it as we see it. The Father considered the prodigal son lost and dead in the way he had chosen to live. Yet the Father rejoiced when the prodigal son repented of his ways. This son turned away from the life that brings destruction and sought to be under the Father's nurturing once again. I believe the Father brought to rememberance in the son's mind of the goodness that he once shared with the Father. Just look at the life of David. The Father sent Nathan the prophet to bring him to repentance. What was the result?Psa. 51:1 \tHave mercy upon me, O God,\tAccording to Your lovingkindness;\tAccording to the multitude of Your tender mercies,\tBlot out my transgressions. 2 \tWash me thoroughly from my iniquity,\tAnd cleanse me from my sin. 3 \tFor I acknowledge my transgressions,\tAnd my sin is always before me. 4 \tAgainst You, You only, have I sinned,\tAnd done this evil in Your sight—\tThat You may be found just when You speak,\tAnd blameless when You judge. This was the confession of David, it was also that of the prodigal son. The Father is merciful indeed..In ChristJeff

“Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand; I will cause them to cease feeding the sheep, and the shepherds shall feed themselves no more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouths, that they may no longer be food for them.” These words clearly portray the fact that the lost sheep are victims of those who abuse their God-given responsibilities. Perhaps we can’t fully grasp the significance because we live in the land of the free. Yet there are always influences trying to assert power over people’s minds and lives, and are driving them away from the Good Shepherd. They devour the sheep or feed them bad food. Think of those who grow up in troubled homes, or even worldly homes, or legalistically religious homes. Before sheep are even able to make choices, they are led to barren pastures. Jesus said, "He who is not for me is against me"That would include all 'older brothers' They keep the sheep from finding the good pasture. The beauty of the message of Christ is that although people may find themselves like sheep driven from the good pasture, there is nothing in the entire world that can stop them from turning to Christ. Our Lord is always on the lookout for any who is willing to turn to him The woman in the parable looks EVERYWHERE for her coin. The shepherd goes ALL OVER. No one is out of reach of God! The sheep and the coin are found by their owners. When the son returns, he is met his father running towards him. (The analogy takes a slight twist when moving to the third parable – probably because sheep and coins do not have a conscious will.) yet the description of this event places the blame on another and not self I like what AA teaches: There will never be any freedom from the bondage of alcoholism until the addict takes personal accountability – regardless of how they were influenced in the past. They cannot blame anyone, not themselves. Blame is a dead-end game. No one can even blame God for the circumstances in their lives: “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the LORD is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair!” Ezek. 33:17The issue is not the sin, it is the unwillingness to repent. “…says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways!’It is God's desire that all should come to repentance God provides the way: “A highway shall be there, and a road,And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.” Is. 35:8Diane

Sister Dorcas asked about who was the source for blame...Sister Diane wrote:If we put these references together, we’d have to say that there was a reason that the younger brother took off. He was constantly harangued and ostracized by his Older Brother who felt himself so much more important and righteous. Can’t you see some family dynamics going on? What about the church – muddying the water with religiosity, superiority, and legalism? Also...Ezekiel 344 The weak you have not strengthened, nor have you healed those who were sick, nor bound up the broken, nor brought back what was driven away, nor sought what was lost; but with force and cruelty you have ruled them. These are thoughts which lead me to the idea of blaming others for our own situations...I do not agree with Sister Diane's thoughts about the older brother. In terms of God judging the shepherds in Ezekiel 34, one must look back to Ezekiel 33 to find what God expects of His shepherds. God has called men and women to turn His flock towards Him. If the shepherd does what He is told by God, he is not guilty of the blood of those who have turned away from God. Yet if the shepherd, (watchman) does not warn the wayward sheep, and the wayward sheep does not repent, God holds the shepherd guilty of the lost sheeps blood. In Ezekiel 34, God pronounces judgement on the shepherd because they have not obeyed God's voice. They are judged because they have not cared for His sheep. Yet as we continue in Ezekiel 34, we see that the scriptures then shift from the shepherd to the sheep. Here God judges hold each sheep accountable for their own decisions. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,” says the Lord GOD. 16 “I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment.” Ezek. 34:17 “And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats. 18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture—and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet.” Ezek. 34:20 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD to them: ‘Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. In these scriptures we do find that the fat sheep do scatter others..In this Sister Diane is correct in the fact that whether sheep or shepherds, one can be held responsible by God for their ill treatment of the weak and the lost. This I see too. Yet, I still believe that God gives no man excuse for his own actions...Sister Diane has a heart for the lost and the weak, for this is very very good. I myself see how sin keeps one off the path, and therefore must seek to point out why they are sick and weak...8 \tA highway shall be there, and a road,\tAnd it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.\tThe unclean shall not pass over it,...Sister Diane, may we continue to sharpen one another, and may the glory go to our Lord and Savior...God Bless Jeff

Sister Diane has a heart for the lost and the weak, for this is very very good. I myself see how sin keeps one off the path, and therefore must seek to point out why they are sick and weak...8 A highway shall be there, and a road,And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.The unclean shall not pass over it,...Sister Diane, may we continue to sharpen one another, and may the glory go to our Lord and Savior...Amen and I think your thoughts go very well with MeAgain's (Annie's) thread on unity within the Body and each one walking in their own callings so as to build up the Body. Very good thoughts. We definitely need each other and when walking in what the Lord has called each one to walk in, WILL bring Glory to Him. Blessings in Him, Cindy

Hi, Brother Jeff, I’ve been focusing mainly on oppressors – all who drive out the sheep, but I still don’t feel that I allowed this to be an “excuse” for rejecting the solution provided by the Heavenly Father. I entertained the possibility of portraying the older brother as the Pharisees, since they were Jesus’ audience. We know that they were a strong force against the good news of Christ. In fact, even in the narrative it is clear that the older brother was opposed to the celebration. So his antagonistic leaning was evident. However, the important point is that the Father overruled. In fact, he was the FIRST one to run out to his returning son. The apparent reason for leaving the home was because the younger son wanted something better - immediately. He wasn’t content to wait for the right timing to receive the inheritance. And he wasn’t content with the interim blessings. (Just maybe he didn’t want to endure persecution from the older brother) He was flesh-driven and impulsive. And he clearly made the choice himself. I see no reason to assume that his choice was not heavily influenced by the behavior of his brother, (ie the religious establishment). That would not, of course, indicate that the choice was in any way acceptable. I think it is quite evident that people typically blame forces outside of themselves for their choices. Those forces are often the ones whom they perceive to have power over them, even though, that is rarely fully the case. More likely they chose, although unconsciously, to surrender their free choice and follow the dictates of their “higher powers”. They let themselves be controlled. Then later they believe that they are being suppressed, and don’t like the “confinement”. These people are in a prison of their own making. And they do not see that the door is open and they can just walk into freedom. The door, of course, being the offer of freedom provided by Christ – a freedom that does not depend on circumstances (or persecution from “older brothers”) I see excuses applied in church-related troubles all the time. Really no pastor or elder literally forces anyone into submission. Even in cults this is true. Yet people still blame the church, and excuse their lack of personal responsibility on those forces. They don’t want to risk getting rejected or scolded so they just go along with things, reluctantly. They’d rather drink muddy water than search for the living Water. Or, more likely they DON’T KNOW the way of freedom, they don’t know that there is another ways, and don’t see that they can CHOOSE to receive it. That is the plight of the sinner. People are in bondage for many reasons - maybe because they cannot escape oppression or abuse, maybe because they are in a prison of their own perception, or because of unforgiveness, or because they are deluded and don’t realize it – like the prodigal did for a season. But regardless, the same freedom is offered to all of them:“…he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; Is. 61:1Going back to the AA parallel: One major hurdle of recovery, healing, or whatever you call it, is that the “victims” must stop seeing themselves as the victim, and take accountability for their own choices, regardless of who did what to them in the past. So, clearly, I do not wish to condone excuse-making, as that is most counterproductive. It is a prison. Excuse v To serve as justification for n An explanation offered to justify or obtain forgivenessRom. 1:20 “so that men are without excuse.” I ask excuse for what? For being born sinners? or for refusing God’s solution for their sin, and instead taking their own path – whatever that may look like? I feel that it is the later. Paul himself, who was well versed in the Torah, a leader of the law, familiar with the words of the Prophets, deserved an extra heavy sentence for his sins, because he had NO excuse. I don’t know how he got away with saying “n the past I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man. But I received mercy because I acted ignorantly in my unbelief 1 Tim. 1:13 This sounds like an excuse to me. He SHOULD HAVE known what he was doing. He should have known better! He had deliberately rejected the entire New Covenant promise clearly presented in the OT. Why didn’t he realize that he was sinning against God – leading believers to their death! He was not an ignorant person, yet he claimed that he acted in ignorance! Clearly, he WAS BLIND. And only after the scales came off did he see the ways of God, and the Scriptures came to light. Should we not view all sinners like this – blind, without the ability to see – until the scales fall off their eyes?“To this world Christ Jesus came, Sinful people to reclaim. I am the worst of them. But for that very reason I received mercy, so that in me, as the worst sinner, Christ Jesus might demonstrate all of his patience as an example for those who would believe in him for eternal life.” 1 Tim. 1:15, 16 ESVDiane

I first read this practice from that book written by a shepherd, "A Shepherd's Look at Psalm 23" and I cringed because I can't even think of doing that. But then heard more of this and even more about such things also from sheep keepers.Annie, some years ago I myself used this analogy of the shepherd breaking the lamb's leg because I first heard it as a child in Sunday School. I have asked various people, even sheep farmers, if this is true. No one could answer. Finally, after all these years, I now read your response. I have the book you refer to, so will check it out. Many thanks. SI is a great place!

Amen and I think your thoughts go very well with MeAgain's (Annie's) thread on unity within the Body and each one walking in their own callings so as to build up the Body. Very good thoughtThanks, Cindy. I find it truly amazing how the various threads have a way of weaving together. Surely the Lord is working among us making the "quilt". Diane

There is something about Paul’s conversion that stands out: He did not have the younger brother experience. He was a Pharisee through and through – clearly the older brother. He did not wander away into the foreign lands, nor go after the pleasures of the world. Yet he found Christ. Or rather, Christ found him! Paul was found by Christ. 1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? Who are you, Lord? Saul asked. I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting, he replied. Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do. The men travelling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. Acts 9“… when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.” Rom. 5:6“While we were still sinners , Christ died for us.” Rom. 5:8“For if, when we were God’s enemies,we were reconciled to him through his death…” Rom. 5:10I just saw the following caption on a random photo. It seems to be a very timely find: Without human manipulations for altar calls, or using sensational and emotional gimmicks, Spurgeon trusted on God alone to convict the sinners, as he said, "I do not come to this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter, I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, ‘you are mine, and you shall be mine, I claim you for myself.’ My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will."People have disputed Spurgeon’s position on this, but it certainly was true in Paul’s case. “God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on them all” Rom. 11:32I (Paul)am the worst of them. But for that very reason I received mercy, so that in me, as the worst sinner, Christ Jesus might demonstrate all of his patience as an example for those who would believe in him for eternal life.” 1 Tim. 1:15, 16 ESVDiane

Sorry for going back a few posts...this is pretaining to the thought that the shepherd might break a sheeps leg to prevent the sheep from wandering off. I have read the book on Pslam 23...it is quite interesting in the way sheep and people have like natures...According to Scripture, I find that the example given to us in the life of Jacob as one that parallel the breaking of the sheeps leg. Gen. 32:30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” 31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket of Jacob’s hip in the muscle that shrank. Jacob, the heal catcher, had a problem with straying. In ChristJeff

Sister Diane wrote:Hi, Brother Jeff, I’ve been focusing mainly on oppressors – all who drive out the sheep, but I still don’t feel that I allowed this to be an “excuse” for rejecting the solution provided by the Heavenly Father. I agree with you in many ways. What I have come to see in Ezekiel 34, is that both the shepherds and the sheep themselves can inflict hurt on the sheep that are weak. This is something that I have not seen in Scripture before, nor was I dwelling on this until you brought this notion of the older brother to bear in this thread...What I saw in Scripture pointed to what you are trying to communicate to us...Against the shepherds...3 You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool; you slaughter the fatlings, but you do not feed the flock. 4 The weak you have not strengthened, nor have you healed those who were sick, nor bound up the broken, nor brought back what was driven away, nor sought what was lost; but with force and cruelty you have ruled them. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd; and they became food for all the beasts of the field when they were scattered. 6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and on every high hill; yes, My flock was scattered over the whole face of the earth, and no one was seeking or searching for them.” And then against certain sheep...Ezek. 34:20 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD to them: ‘Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. Whether a Pharisee or a lay person, there exists the idea of oppression...For this thought Sister Diane, I thankyou for bring this to light. In ChristJeff

Sister Diane wrote:Rom. 1:20 “so that men are without excuse.” I ask excuse for what? For being born sinners? or for refusing God’s solution for their sin, and instead taking their own path – whatever that may look like? I feel that it is the later.When I quote from Romans 1:20, I always intend it to mean that God gives witness to all that He exists. First one must be brought to the realization that there is a God. I believe Scripture points this out, as the means by which God who is just, holds all accountible for their own actions. To me it is not the realization that one is a sinner, only that, all men are given witness that they have a Creator. What comes later, is the understanding that one has a choice to obey or disobey their Creator. I see excuses applied in church-related troubles all the time. Really no pastor or elder literally forces anyone into submission. Even in cults this is true. Yet people still blame the church, and excuse their lack of personal responsibility on those forces. They don’t want to risk getting rejected or scolded so they just go along with things, reluctantly. They’d rather drink muddy water than search for the living Water. Or, more likely they DON’T KNOW the way of freedom, they don’t know that there is another ways, and don’t see that they can CHOOSE to receive it. That is the plight of the sinner. I believe as you have said, the sheep remain in bondage to men and women, who themselves, have not experienced the freedom that comes in Christ. The water is muddied, because the stench of the carnal mind, polutes the water that the sheep drink. This mixed water causes blindness. In my own life, I have found that the Scriptures continually show me the things that I myself hold carnally. The idea of the oppressor, that I just mentioned, is a perfect example of how the word of God brings clarity and stillness to the water that frees.Keep pressing Sister Diane.In ChristJeff

Against the shepherds and certain sheep Scripture points out a common nature that God finds wrong...Ezekiel 3415 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,” says the Lord GOD. 16 “I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment.” AlsoEzek. 34:20 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD to them: ‘Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. What might we see in this depiction of being "fat and strong?" In other words, how might this idea of being fat apply to the Pharisees of Jesus' day? And can this really be applied to the older son in the parable of the prodigal son? Was the father judging the older son in the same way Ezekiel 34 judges the fat and the strong? In Christ Jeff

Was the father judging the older son in the same way Ezekiel 34 judges the fat and the strong? It seems that judgment was not the object of the parable. There is no mention of any judgment towards either son, which is I think is a point worth noting. The Father seemed to have a pleading heart for his older son also: "But the father pleaded with him..... You are always with me and everything I have is yours" Lk. 15:28,31That reminds me of what Jesus said, "Jerusalem,Jerusalem, you who killed the prophets and stoned those I sent to you. How I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings." Lk. 13:34 Note this verse is only two chapters before the prodigal parable. It is also found at the end of Christ's scathing seven woes in Matt. 23. 1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practise what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honour at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the market-places and to have men call them 'Rabbi'. 8 But you are not to be called 'Rabbi', for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father', for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher', for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13-14 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 16 Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it. 23 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices— mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law— justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practised the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. 29 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! 33 You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berakiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.Mercy triumphs over judgment. The heart of Christ was mercy first and formost. Diane

Rom. 1:20 “so that men are without excuse.” I asked: Excuse for what?To me it is not the realization that one is a sinner, only that, all men are given witness that they have a Creator. What comes later, is the understanding that one has a choice to obey or disobey their Creator. I never thought about it this way, but looking at the context in Romans 1, it makes sense: that all men have been given evidence of a creator – his eternal power and divine nature has been clearly seen being understood from what has been made. :20 Creation is the common ground of all humanity. In that sense no one has an unfair disadvantage. God-awareness is a built in reality. This reminds me of the Athenian altar to the unknown god on Mars Hill (in Acts 17) Paul capitalized on that. That also reminds me of the book, “Peace Child” by the missionary, Don Richardson. He was able to go into the most remote and pagan tribes and find clues of God built into their cultural structure - perhaps signs of some glimmer of the Light, which then became launching pads for his evangelism. It’s interesting that Romans 2 opens with “You, therefore, have no excuse…” Even those endowed with Biblical revelation and history still missed it.Those thoughts easily slip into the parable - for each brother had knowledge of their Father - but that didn't imply natural submission - for either of them. Diane

Sister Diane quoted many Scriptures which portray the "fat and the strong"... one of which I believe also speaks to the parable of the unjust steward of Luke 16..13-14 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.This also resembles the shepherds of Ezekiel 34...God BlessIn ChristJeff

My reframing goes like this. The father 'judged' that his relationship with his son (as a son, rather than a servant) was worth the loss which his son had caused, and that he would not make his son a servant, even for a season, to begin to pay back what he had wasted. He 'judged' that the love in his heart was willing to forgive the 'debt' (which the older brother may have thought should be repaid).Dorcas, I was thinking of "judgment" as meaning: guilty verdict followed by a sentence. But you are saying that God discerned (judged) through the eyes of mercy - and NOT justice and punishment. Oh, the beauty of God's judgments! You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.How would they do that? By refusing to show mercy to the sinner, and instead, having an unmerciful attitude.. or... Perhaps insisting that the sinner had no excuse, and therefore did not deserve to be let off the hookDo you ever marvelled at the fact that people are no different today. Today religous hypocrites behave the very same way towards the sinner as they did in Christ's day or in Ezekiel's day. The Bible is indeed a contemporary book!One finds Christ today excactly the same way as they did in Bible days - by surrendering to him and accepting his gift of forgivness. Diane

You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.Jesus said, "You yourselves do not enter..." What might this imply? David understood things that the religion of the Pharisees had long lost due to their disobedience...Psalm 51:14 \tDeliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,\tThe God of my salvation,\tAnd my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness. 15 \tO Lord, open my lips,\tAnd my mouth shall show forth Your praise. 16 \tFor You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;\tYou do not delight in burnt offering. 17 \tThe sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,\tA broken and a contrite heart—\tThese, O God, You will not despise. David pointed out the fact that burnt offerings and sacrifice did not please God. David then points to what God desires in those who call upon Him..."The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart..."Jesus condemned the Pharisees because they themselves had not gone in...they themselves had not submitted to God's righteousness..Listen to Paul's analysis of these people...Rom. 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. What does it mean to submit to the righteousness of God?In ChristJeff

Last night I read a few pages in the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, about those whose lives were beyond “salvation” – people whose addictions were destroying themselves and their families. It didn’t matter how resolved they were to avoid even a drop of alcohol. They simply did not have to power within them to stop their addiction. That is the nature of sin. There is no hope for an alcoholic until he admits that he has a problem that he CANNOT fix. He must be willing to label himself as an alcoholic. And most are unwilling to go that far. They still hold some thread of hope within themselves, that they can lick the problem, or it’s not really as bad as it seems. That is the nature of sin. Sin leads one to a bottomless pit of death and destruction. And there is no way out while one still clings to even a fragment of hope – that they can do better, they can muster up enough determination to rise out of the pit. But the sinner will only go down, down, down. Perhaps we could say: That is the judgment. The outcome of divinely ordained law – the consequence. Last night I had a dream of a tiny crumpled-up elderly lady cowering on the ground. She was shriveled up by life’s continuous assaults from within her and without her - reduced to nothing but a pitiful of morsel of humanity. I picked her up and rocked her and rocked her and rocked her. My heart went out to her and I wept for her. That is the only hope for sinners. Someone has to care enough to rescue them and pick them up. Someone has to weep for them. All are afflicted with an addiction to sin, and there is no hope for us until we are willing to label ourselves as a sinner. Few wish to do that. They still believe that they can muster up enough will power to improve themselves. That is how the older brother viewed himself And that was his view of everyone. The older brother views the sinner in this way, “Why that scoundrel deserves to be punished. He should have known better. He doesn’t deserve my compassion.” How many view themselves as “saved” but are really still trusting in something THEY did and are doing? They still think like the older brother. The blessings of the Father surround them, but they don’t see much value in them, and can’t be bothered. They don’t want to be rescued because they don’t see that they are lost sinners. One further thought... when I was at my most Pharisaic, in the past, I was actually trying to get things right before God. Yes, I was way off the mark, but God saw my thirst for righteousness, and honoured my every millimetre of real movement towards Him.Dorcas, I can say the same about me. Diane

I wonder whether there is a part of the will of a person, which God reserves to Himself, regardless of the effects of sin in a life.Dorcas, Isn't WILL what it's all about? The words CHOOSE, CHOICE must be at the core of any discussion regarding salvation. But also, I believe that we must respect the reality that a lost sense of freewill entraps the sinnner. Is this where your buckshot is aimed? Being “lost in sin” to me indicates a lost willpower to resist sin or it’s effects (ex addiction). Compare this with the willpower still left in the man we call Legion, whom even thousands of evil spirits could not prevent from running towards Jesus whom he had seen in the distance. I think this is the point. Clearly Legion did not have the power to resist the demons but he had the will-power to cry out to Christ. There are two opposites of the same problem. Some may have lost their will-power through whatever faulty conditioning or circumstances they sustained in earlier years and through failure to take personal responsibility somewhere along the line. But at the other end of the same spectrum are those who have a very strong determination and a powerful will and are our society models. In the end their will is going to be just as much their downfall as those with a weak will. Both are in bondage to self and sin. And in a sense both have a something within them that naturally resists the Lord. Perhaps you could call this a strong will, though unconscious. Perhaps we could say that pride and deception are driving forces. It makes no difference what one is addicted to, whether substance, work, hobby, religion, power, self, rage, or whatever. They are all outcomes of core fallenness on which has been built faulty beliefs, sinful choices, whatever) "There is no difference" (Rom.3:23): All must exercise the will to say “I am not God. I need God.” And all have a powerful tendency to resist this humble acknowledgment until life-circumstances (the prodigal), or divine intervention (the Apostle Paul), or a combination bears upon the sinner. While no one has the will-power to free themselves from sin or the effects of it, or they have limited power to resist those who attempt to control them (Jezebel), all can choose to surrender to Christ when Christ opens their eyes. Is that not exactly what he asks - and no more? “For He is not willing that any should perish.” It is quite clear to me that there is a blend of divine intervention and personal choice in the process of rebirth. And when Christ sets us free, he sets our WILLS free - free to surrender all to him and serve him. Diane

1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures for ever. 2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say this— those he redeemed from the hand of the foe, 3 those he gathered from the lands, from east and west, from north and south. 4Some wandered in desert wastelands, finding no way to a city where they could settle. 5 They were hungry and thirsty, and their lives ebbed away. 6 Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress. 7 He led them by a straight way to a city where they could settle. 8 Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men, 9 for he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things. 10Some sat in darkness and the deepest gloom, prisoners suffering in iron chains, 11 for they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High. 12 So he subjected them to bitter labour; they stumbled, and there was no-one to help. 13 Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them from their distress. 14 He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom and broke away their chains. 15 Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men, 16 for he breaks down gates of bronze and cuts through bars of iron. 17Some became fools through their rebellious ways and suffered affliction because of their iniquities. 18 They loathed all food and drew near the gates of death. 19 Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them from their distress. 20 He sent forth his word and healed them; he rescued them from the grave. 21 Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men. 22 Let them sacrifice thank- offerings and tell of his works with songs of joy. 23Others went out on the sea in ships; they were merchants on the mighty waters. 24 They saw the works of the LORD, his wonderful deeds in the deep. 25 For he spoke and stirred up a tempest that lifted high the waves. 26 They mounted up to the heavens and went down to the depths; in their peril their courage melted away. 27 They reeled and staggered like drunken men; they were at their wits' end. 28 Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, and he brought them out of their distress. 29 He stilled the storm to a whisper; the waves of the sea were hushed. 30 They were glad when it grew calm, and he guided them to their desired haven. 31 Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men. 32 Let them exalt him in the assembly of the people and praise him in the council of the elders. 33 He turned rivers into a desert, flowing springs into thirsty ground, 34 and fruitful land into a salt waste, because of the wickedness of those who lived there. 35 He turned the desert into pools of water and the parched ground into flowing springs; 36 there he brought the hungry to live, and they founded a city where they could settle. 37 They sowed fields and planted vineyards that yielded a fruitful harvest; 38 he blessed them, and their numbers greatly increased, and he did not let their herds diminish.

Sister Diane wrote:There is no hope for an alcoholic until he admits that he has a problem that he CANNOT fix. He must be willing to label himself as an alcoholic. And most are unwilling to go that far. They still hold some thread of hope within themselves, that they can lick the problem, or it’s not really as bad as it seems. That is the nature of sin. Sin leads one to a bottomless pit of death and destruction. And there is no way out while one still clings to even a fragment of hope – that they can do better, they can muster up enough determination to rise out of the pit. But the sinner will only go down, down, down. Perhaps we could say: That is the judgment. The outcome of divinely ordained law – the consequence. Please consider this section of Scripture which speaks to your post...14 \tFor God may speak in one way, or in another,\tYet man does not perceive it. 15 \tIn a dream, in a vision of the night,\tWhen deep sleep falls upon men,\tWhile slumbering on their beds, 16 \tThen He opens the ears of men,\tAnd seals their instruction. 17 \tIn order to turn man from his deed,\tAnd conceal pride from man, 18 \tHe keeps back his soul from the Pit,\tAnd his life from perishing by the sword. 19 \t“Man is also chastened with pain on his bed,\tAnd with strong pain in many of his bones, 20 \tSo that his life abhors bread,\tAnd his soul succulent food. 21 \tHis flesh wastes away from sight,\tAnd his bones stick out which once were not seen. 22 \tYes, his soul draws near the Pit,\tAnd his life to the executioners. 23 \t“If there is a messenger for him,\tA mediator, one among a thousand,\tTo show man His uprightness, 24 \tThen He is gracious to him, and says,\t“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;\tI have found a ransom’; 25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,\tHe shall return to the days of his youth. 26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,\tHe shall see His face with joy,\tFor He restores to man His righteousness. 27 \tThen he looks at men and says,\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,\tAnd it did not profit me.’ 28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,\tAnd his life shall see the light. 29 \t“Behold, God works all these things,\tTwice, in fact, three times with a man, 30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life. God BlessIn ChristJeff