The Basics

I read this in Christian in Complete armour last night:In your study learn the basic precepts of Christianity before you try to tackle the larger issues. As children, first we go to grammar school, then we go to college; first we learn the facts, then we study the concepts. Your spiritual education is not so different. Christians who are not instructed in the fundamentals of Christianity are not likely to mature into solid saints. I sincerely believe a poor foundation is the reason many are not steadfast today. Dear saint, do not be too proud to go back and learn the basic precepts of the gospel if you have not yet mastered them. Too many are more concerned about their reputation than their salvation.Wow!!!! Gurnall's every sentence drips with wisdom, so where to start dear saints?Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Repentance is the place to start surely, it's the ground on which all initally come to God so why not start there, personally i feel i know very little of true repentance, i have only wept a few times over my sin, not often enough so i plan to study what the Bible says about repentance i plan to meditate on it and start to practice it in a way that will change me more.All too often i feel that after i have sinnned i 'repent' but the next time the temptation arises it get's a upturned nose but after a few times a side glance and then back to the sin and the process starts all over again and again and again, which begs the question did i repent to begin with?Thayers says that repent or metanoeō [μετανοέω] is:1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sinsHas my mind changed do i abhor what i have done i sadly feel i know very little about the abhorrence of my own sin, but it's more a fear of being found out, I'm ashamed yes but to abhor what i have done sadly no,I posted this ask for prayer in my studies and if anyone wants to come with me on my journey to learn the basics of our faith, i dont know what the next one will be but i knew repentance had to come first.I'd love to hear others experiences and wisdom on the issue of repentanceAlways interested...matt

Thanks Matt for bringing focus back to the foundation of faith.I too had trouble with true repentance when I felt guilt for doing the things which I enjoyed. I felt conviction, others told me it was wrong but at the same time it brought pleasure. How do we abhor that which causes pleasure? I began to feel like Paul in Romans 7, a torn man, almost schitzophrenic.Then I came to understand the why. Why was my pleasureable activity wrong? The reason was that it was not of faith. Rom 14:23 "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." ASV My indulgence was based upon what I wanted and not what the Lord wanted. I was not acting upon what He told me, I was acting independently, without permission, lawlessly. He showed me Matt 7:22-23 in a whole new light from the NLT; 22 On judgment day many will tell me, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' 23 But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized."Unauthorized (anomia) without law, without governance, without a Lord or Master.Now I was really convicted. I could really abhor my sin because it was one of rebellion, insubordination. I no longer needed to identify what not to do, I could remain single minded on one thing 'listen and obey.'I repented. My thinking was changed. No longer was I in charge of my life, no longer do I initiate action, from now on I take orders from the King.Matt keep challenging us with the basics.Jeff

I think that this is a great thread. And one of the "princples of the doctrine of Christ" is definitely "the foundation of repentance" (Hebrews 6:1) We must be firmly grounded in the foundation before we can build thereon and "go on unto perfection."I'm a little short on time right now, so I just wanted to suggest that we revisit repentance with a powerful sermon by Paris Reidhead, Except Ye Repent." https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=281Lord willing, I'd love to be able to participate further in this discussion.Your brother,D.

Repentance is the place to start surely, it's the ground on which all initally come to God so why not start there, personally i feel i know very little of true repentance, i have only wept a few times over my sin, not often enough so i plan to study what the Bible says about repentance i plan to meditate on it and start to practice it in a way that will change me more.I believe you're right, repentence is the place to start. I did a little study on repentence a while back. It's very interesting to note how the Bible records the start of three different New Testament ministries...First John the Baptist;In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.(Mat 3:1-2)Then Jesus, as you already quoted;The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.(Mat 4:16-17)And Peter's first sermon;Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Act 2:37-38)What about Paul? In Acts 26 he desribes his ministry or "heavenly vision" to Agrippa;Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (Act 26:19-20)Beginning to see a pattern? No doubt about it. In Christ,Ron

The very act of repentance is turning away from sin and toward God, and in faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.How do we abhor that which causes pleasure? It is knowing that which gives pleasure is sin. We are to abhor sin.Some people say that they hate their sin, but in reality, they love it. They decieve themselves into thinking that they hate it by their own pride.For example: The sin that I do is so abomitable and shameful, I only hate it because I do it and not because it is sin.I am only offended by it because I'm too good of a person to do that very sin that is so abomitable and shameful, but in my mind I still love it becuase it gives me plesure.My love for the pleasure that it gives me is stonger that the shame and filthyness.All this is self centered, love of self, and pride. The guilt that I feal is not because God Hates it and it is a sin, but because I think I'm too good to actualy be doing the sin and it is too abomitable and shameful for me to it.but the pride that is in me is not strong enough to stop sinning.I must Love God more than myself, and that is how I am delivered.This sort of looks like the battle that Paul preseants in Rom 7:15-25

Logic,I was going to post - and you beat me to it - and say the reason we keep 'falling into sin after repenting' is because we do not hate it enough! If we hate it we will flee from it! But you are right, the reason this act tempts us is because of the pleasure one derives from it! Well spoken, Logic. Thanks for posting.ginnyrose

Christ is set us free. The reason we keep sinning is we don't love Him enough and trust that He is the reason if we repent and mess up, we are forgiven by His love and sacrifice. In Christ we are perfect before the Father and repentance is already taken care of. That is why: 1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.The reason God is faithful to forgive sin if we ask is: 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.That Seed is Christ and True repentance and forgiveness Is in Him. With out believing that Christ is in us and that is who repentance and forgiveness is in and not us, no forgiveness. If I ask for forgiveness as in God forgive me, am I forgiven in my own asking? Only if I believe in the Son of God and His Spirit is born again in me can this be true. For the world knowing Him not and their sin remains. Why is God faithful to forgive and cleanse? Not because of what we have done or asked for, but because Christ did and does, He that is in us is or repentance and forgiveness and the only reason God is Faithful and Just to forgive us.All forgiveness is there at the Cross, repentance is just agreeing with it, and God is Faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness by the Christ in us, not by the repentance. In Christ: Phillip

Hebrews 6:1-3 spells out the elementary truths of the gospel:"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit."Notice the first elementary truth is repentance. Just wanted to confirm that.

Thank you all for your responses thus far, Logic that is an excellent post;The story so far.. I went and got a list of all the times the words repent repented and repentance are found in the Scripture (i can put up a list if anyone wants.)Repentance as far as i understand so far is to change your mind about something, in our case it is the sin that we have committed, our minds have to be changed about what sin we have committed:Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Here Paul states that we are transformed by the renewing of our mind, it is the act of repentance that brings about the new birth and with the new birth comes a new heart and mind, thus repentance leads to a new mind and that new mind leads to further repentance as we see with our new mind what our sin truelly means.I looked at 1 Kings 8:46-53, which is part of Solomons prayer at the dedication of the Temple:If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; 47 Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness; 48 And so return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name: 49 Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause, 50 And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them: 51 For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron: 52 That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee. 53 For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD. Here we see that when we repent before the Lord and tunr to Him with our WHOLE heart then He will forgive ALL our sin v.50, But there is more in this passage we see WHY the Lord wants to forgive us:V.52 That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee.He forgives us and brings us out of the bondage of sin that He might have compassion on us and enable us to call upon Him. How amazing the know that it thrills the heart of the Creator of all things to hear the supplication of one of His creatures.I also looked up Job 40:1-5; Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. 3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. 5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further. Here righteous Job declares himself to be vile, what repentance! and delares he cannot answer the Lord anything, oh that we might know this!Further on Job 42:5,6 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Here Job beholds the Lord an all he can do is reflect on his own abhorant state and repent in dust and ashes, one commentary says the dust and ashes signifies Job's opinion of his own righteousness.The final passage i looked up was Ezra 9:6-8;And said, O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over our head, and our trespass is grown up unto the heavens. 7 Since the days of our fathers have we been in a great trespass unto this day; and for our iniquities have we, our kings, and our priests, been delivered into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity, and to a spoil, and to confusion of face, as it is this day. 8 And now for a little space grace hath been showed from the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage. This is a stunning passage there is so much wealth in it, the Lord showed me that there is not point looking up if your iniquity reaches over your head because all you will see is your iniquity, remember what our Lord said in Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. But praise God for the hope in this passage in Ezra He has given us a nail in His Holy Place, i think it was Appolus who recently worte beautifully about how this nail is Christ one whom hangs the sin of the world, He offers us drowning sinners whose sin reaches up to Heaven far above our heads a nail pierced hand, haha glory!!! what else does it say? "God will lighten our eyes and give us a little reviving in our bondage" Prasie the Lord He does it all doesn't He and why? Because only God can save us dear saints that is the depth of our transgression against Him that only Almighty God can save us no one else!!!tbc...God bless you all for your responsesmatt

Yes, It looks like repentance is for babes in Christ. Which is just a natural outcome of the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.Going on to perfection does not require repentance. It requires Love and that is the Love of Christ that is birthed in us. We can do all the right things including repentance at every turn, but "I show you a better way". 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.Eight times it say I and we could put repent in front of all of them because repentance is something I do, but it profits me nothing. What is our profit? hn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jhn 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence. Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Jhn 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Jhn 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.So also is our repentance, once to be saved, then after because Love Himself has been born again in us and He is now our life. If you study repentance carefully you will see Satan uses it to put Christ back on the Cross every time we repent. The Church is still being deceived by a lie that was from the beginning, surely if you sin and repent you won't die for God knows you will be just like Him and your repentance is your power.Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 12:9 [Let] love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Rom 12:10 [Be] kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Does repentance keep us from sin? No, but The Love of Christ and the Love we Have From Him, by Him and In Him will. If we sin, let us be honest and just admit we just don't love Him enough to want to change our minds, then if this is repentance, I am all for it. There is a big difference in the Love Repentance of God and the "I" repentance of man. But then it would not be repentance it would be Love.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip said:"So also is our repentance, once to be saved, then after because Love Himself has been born again in us and He is now our life. If you study repentance carefully you will see Satan uses it to put Christ back on the Cross every time we repent. The Church is still being deceived by a lie that was from the beginning, surely if you sin and repent you won't die for God knows you will be just like Him and your repentance is your power."Brother are you saying that when the Holy Spirit shines a light on my life and exposes a fault or error that I am not to change my thinking and my direction as this will put Christ back on the cross?How do you define repentance?I love you brother, help me understand what you mean.Jeff

Brother Logic said:"For example: The sin that I do is so abomitable and shameful, I only hate it because I do it and not because it is sin."Brother I see your point conerning sins which the scripture and society say are abominations. But what about the other sins? Not all sins are ugly in the eyes of men.James 4:1717 To him therefore that knoweth to do good , and doeth it not, to him it is sin. ASVMy point was God hates sin, but not for the same reason that we hate sin. Sin is to take action that is not based on the voice of God, to not operate in faith. When we act in fear we are acting on a belief in something other than the voice of God. Do we hate our fearful acts as much as murder and fornication? God does not measure sin in degrees. Jonah was just as sinful for not going to Ninevah as David was with Bathsheba. Neither one obeyed God.The Church has preached hard on the Ten Commandments and people have put forth effort to try to obey these laws. However, do we believe that not waking up 30 minutes early before going to work to read and pray, if the Holy Spirit led us to do that, is just as sinful as stealing? Do we excuse our failure to obey the voice of God as 'no big deal' if it is not something commanded in the Bible?If Jesus Christ is Lord, then He is Lord of all, not just the things that we want Him to control. If Jesus is Lord of our time at church then He is Lord of our 'free' time. If Jesus is Lord of our tithe then He is Lord of the 90% also. A Lord is a someone who governs and instructs others what to do. His word is law. I appreciate your zeal to hate that which is an abomination to the Lord. Keep hating sin.Love in Christ,Jeff

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.This does not say that people loose their salvation because they fall away. It is saying it is impossible to loose your salvation and cannot be renewed again unto repentance. If we sin what does the word say for us to do, not repent but confess and agree with God that what the Holy Spirit is showing us is wrong and we should change, confess not repent, unless you make repentance confession. Repent and be baptized. Does this mean that every time we sin we are to repent and be baptized again? In simple confession it is not me that is faithful and just to do the confessing, I am Christs and the Holy Spirit has convicted me of sin, again simple agreement with God is Like when we first believed, I simply believe and God then does the greatest miracle of All, He birthed His Own Son in us. Now that the Son is in us will He leave? Romans 8:33-39 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.Fellowship is severed, just like if we sin against a brother or sister or them us, if we don't ask for forgiveness or confess to them or them to us and us forgive then separation in fellowship is stayed upon us and them. That is why we are to forgive as Christ has forgiven us, and confess that they may forgive as Christ has forgiven them. Are we not to forgive a brother even before confession from them. Yes, Just like God in Christ has forgiven us. Again "if we confess, God is faithful" Why is God faithful? Because of what Christ did on the Cross, not because I confess. I am to be faithful to forgive a brother or sister and ourselves as Christ has forgiven and died for me.Repentance is a good thing but let us go on toward the High Calling In Christ Jesus our Lord and Love as He has Love us. Confessing our sins to one another: Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults (sin or trespass) one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. If God is faithful to forgive and cleans from all unrighteousness, (SIN) Are we not to emulate Christ and forgive our brothers and sisters and ourselves, Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Repentance is walking after the flesh, Love is walking after The Spirit.Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. Mar 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.No Repentance just confessing sins, repentance has already taken place. In Christ: Phillip

I have had sin in my life, and the consequences are sometimes more than I think I can handle. The pain and the tears seem to be so strong that my head will burst and I can't take any more and just want to die to get rid of the pain. Well folks every time I have come to this point Christ comes in and my tears of Pain and guilt change to tears of Joy and Comfort. I did not repent, I just agreed with God that my sin is killing me. I did not Change direction or change anything, The Holy Spirit did and allowed me to see how terrible sin really is and then, the condemnation is gone, not by my spirit but by His. This is happening less and less, and sometimes I don't even realize the sin that is being revealed to me, and in the revelation my agreement, not my repentance, is what God wants, then He knows I am depending on Jesus Christ His Son and not myself to cleanse me. The cleansing is overwhelming and complete in Christ. Do I want to repent in my own works of repentance and self change, not for an instant. It is the Christ in me that will change me by the Power of the Holy Spirit and My Fathers Loving discipline.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip what did Jesus mean in Rev 2:55 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent , and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." KJV?Thanks for being patient.Jeff

Ephesus is a very special judgment on a very special Church. Ephesians is considered the High Point in Paul's epistles. It is a very special moving letter, with a higher calling than any other epistle. Example: Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.True enough they were saved and sealed. Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,All that God gave Paul to give to the Ephesians was of such high calling of all the Love that God is and Christ gave, is most certainly the First Love being spoken of in Rev 2:5. I am still studying Acts and Eph and see when the first Pentecostal Church began with Peter and the Church everybody says they want be like in what they did. Sell everything and all of one mind and going house to house and prospering. Then comes Acts 6 and the trouble starts and the same church everybody want to be like killed Stephen and Paul appears and things begin to get worse. Finally in Acts 20 the people in Ephesus which Paul call beasts. 1Cr 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. This order to repent is a special order to the Church at Ephesus, I don't think it has anything to do with personal repentance and be baptized at first for salvation. I think this is a changing of east to west in other words from Jewish synagogues to The Body of Christ Church. "I will take away your candlestick" the Church from Ephesus and remove it elsewhere. "It is removal of the candlestick, not extinction of the candle or its light, which is threatened here; judgment for some, but that very judgment the occasion of mercy for others. So it has been. The seat of the Church has been changed, but the Church itself survives. What the East has lost, the West has gained. One who lately visited Ephesus found only three Christians there, and these so ignorant as scarcely to have heard the names of St. Paul or St. John".Still studying and will share what happens. In Christ: Phillip

Our foundation is repentance from "dead" works. "Dead" works are ANY works we do seperate from God, we could give our life savings to the poor and that would be a "dead" work if the Holy Spirit is not the motivation behind it. Going to church every Sunday, being an elder on a board, teaching Sunday School, even evangalism and preaching if not done in the Spirit is "dead" works and must be repented of. Most people probably think of repentance as turning away from the gross sins like adultery, stealing, etc. but repentance is simply turning away from the "I shall be as God" lie that we (through our representative Adam) bought into in the garden of Eden, and submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Brother Phillip I am so glad that you are studying this thoroughly. You have talked about Ephesus being special but what about Pergamum, Sardis, and Laodecia?Rev 2:1616 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. KJVRev 3:33 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. KJVRev 3:1919 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. KJVAnd could you please help me understand what you mean when you say;"Then comes Acts 6 and the trouble starts and the same church everybody want to be like killed Stephen and Paul appears and things begin to get worse."Do you mean that Peter, John, Andrew with the other apostles and the believers threw stones and killed Stephen and that the apostle Paul made the church worse by his presence?I hope you aren't offended by my questions. It is just that what it seems that I am reading is so different from anything else that I have heard on the subject. Love you brother.Jeff

No Repentance just confessing sins, repentance has already taken place.Hello Phillip. I wonder if repentence might be a way of life for the Christian rather than a one time thing?Perhaps the Old Testament might help illustrate this. In 2 Chronicles 30:27 you will see that the priest and Levites arose and blessed the people and their voice was heard by God. This is empahsized because previously their prayers had not been granted. Why? Because the prayer hindernace was removed in verse 15 "the priests and Levites were ashamed and sanctified themselves". Through repentence and cleansing spiritual authority was restored. According to divine law only a priest who was cleansed at the bronze basin could enter into the sanctuary. Similarly, we can only carry out our priestly ministry with power and authority if we cleanse ourselves daily before interceeding, coming to Jesus in repentence, expressing our shame, publicly if necessary, and being cleansed by His blood.Also, when we see God's actions and judgments in the light of the truth we will say with righteous Job;I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:5-6)In Christ,Ron

Brother Phillip wrote about the church of Ephesus:True enough they were saved and sealed. Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Why then was Timothy having so much trouble ministering to the church of Ephesus? see 1 and 2 Timothy.In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:This does not say that people loose their salvation because they fall away. It is saying it is impossible to loose your salvation and cannot be renewed again unto repentance. If we sin what does the word say for us to do, not repent but confess and agree with God that what the Holy Spirit is showing us is wrong and we should change, confess not repent, unless you make repentance confession.How does this teaching compare with the words of Christ?Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.In ChristJeff

Brother Matt wrote many things of which this is one:But praise God for the hope in this passage in Ezra He has given us a nail in His Holy Place, i think it was Appolus who recently worte beautifully about how this nail is Christ one whom hangs the sin of the world, He offers us drowning sinners whose sin reaches up to Heaven far above our heads a nail pierced hand, haha glory!!! what else does it say? "God will lighten our eyes and give us a little reviving in our bondage" Prasie the Lord He does it all doesn't He and why? Because only God can save us dear saints that is the depth of our transgression against Him that only Almighty God can save us no one else!!!I see that you have found the treasure that reveals mysteries of God in the OT. Most never find what you have found. Why? Because we have been taught by men who have not considered the whole counsel of God.May the Lord bless us by His work in you. In ChristJeff

h2oboy wrote:But what about the other sins? Not all sins are ugly in the eyes of men.I think that the most beautiful sins of the world are:1) self esteam2) to love ones self first berfore being able to love others3) to forgive ones selfSelf esteem is very subtle. The peoplpe who think that they have low self esteem are the ones who have to high of esteem for them selves than that of reality. if thay would just accept themselvs as God created them. they would be humble and walk in humiliy.Loveing ones self first berfore being able to love others. This impleis that one does not love ones self. The truth of the matter is that they do love themselves and God knows that they already do.Mar 12:31 The second most important commandment is this: 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.' There is no other commandment more important than these two."In fact, it is imposible to hate your self. If you did, you would love when bad things happen to you, but then you would'nt do those bad things to yourself because you love it when it happens. Then you would hate that because nothing bad is happening to your self.It is just imposible to hate your selfTo forgive ones self is also imposible. To fogive someone is to cancel a debt or to pay off someones debt. How can you cancell your own debt or even pay what you owe yourself?

Brother Logic, Those sins are beautiful to most. What do you think about the sins Paul lists in 1 Cor. 13:1-3?Jeff

h2oboy wrote:Brother Logic, Those sins are beautiful to most. What do you think about the sins Paul lists in 1 Cor. 13:1-3?Jeff1Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.[b]:3[b/] And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.where is the list of sins? it is only one sin here and that is No Love.

Brother Logic,Isn't any activity, regardless whether it is considered good or bad by society, that is not obedience to the voice of God as an act of faith, sin? If that is true, then all these good things performed for Christ or His Kingdom without the love that we have been instructed to have would be sin. Would they not be wood, hay, and stubble? Things done by natural or human initiative rather than faith working in love?Jeff

I definatly agree. What ever that is not of faith is sin!Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.AndHeb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.There comes a question in this last verse; He is what? The answer to that is we must believe that he is what ever He reveled Himself to be and that what ever we need Him to be.Psalm 138:2 I will bow down toward Your holy temple And give thanks to Your name for Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word according to all Your name.(NASB)His Name reviels to us not only Who He is but What He is.

Logic I knew that you saw it. My experience and those of so many that I know has been a mental perception of sin as the activities that are considered 'wrong' by the Church or society. Some of those things are easy to hate or abhor. It wasn't until He revealed that if He is Lord then anything that I do that is not a direct instruction from Him is insubordination. Anything that I do, good or bad, that He did not tell me to do reveals that I have removed Him from the throne of my heart.It is only when I see my actions as a reflection of my heart, which say "you don't have the right to tell me what to do" that I can hate ALL of my sin. MY best effort to build the Kingdom or do right mean nothing if they are not obedience of faith in love. I do not have to perform works to have access into His Holy of Holies, He has already provided that access by grace with the blood of the Lamb. But it is my obedience of faith motivated by love that is the vehicle that carries me through that gracious portal into intimcacy with Him into the Most Holy Place.Thanks for discussing. Remain blessed.Jeff

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? :23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Why didn't He know them?He never approved the things that they were doing in His name.Iniquity is lawlessness. Jesus is the essance of the law, so what ever you do must be from HIS will or else it is lawlessness.

Brother Logic,This is the passage that I have used to teach the concept of sin and lawlessness. So many today think that all they have to do to be righteous or holy is keep a set of rules. As you so clearly explained this passage is dealing with the heart. Anomia is the attitude "I have the right to make my own choices, no one is going to tell me what to do." Lawlessness is abundant in many Christian circles because we have preached a Gospel of a Savior but very little about a Lord.Thanks for discussing.Jeff

Quote:"""Why didn't He know them?He never approved the things that they were doing in His name."""Even a little more, He was not the power in the things they were doing, If He was not in them How could He know them. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory.In Christ: Phillip

Amen, they love the porwer of the Lord but not the Lord of the power.PlusThe have the form of godlyness but lack the power there of.There is a diference between the power of the lord and the power of godlyness.The power of godlyness is greater and more valueable.

Brother Logic wrote:The have the form of godlyness but lack the power there of.There is a diference between the power of the lord and the power of godlyness.Paul warns Timothy who is the pastor of the Ephesian church...1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Here these men deny the power of God...Here these men blaspheme the Holy Spirit...What can be learned from Paul's teaching?In ChristJeff

Brother Logic wrote:The have the form of godlyness but lack the power there of.There is a diference between the power of the lord and the power of godlyness.Paul warns Timothy who is the pastor of the Ephesian church...1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Here these men deny the power of God...Here these men blaspheme the Holy Spirit...What can be learned from Paul's teaching?In ChristJeff

rookie wrote:Here these men blaspheme the Holy Spirit...This is all true but they only blaspheme God, Jesus, or anything holy but not the Holy Spirit.Unsaved people wouldn't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.That is when one knows something is of the Holy Spirit but one calls it evil. Unsaved people wouldn't recognize anything from the Holy Spirit to blaspheme Him.Unless God is already dealing with them to be saved and they have a knowledg of Him but as they harden their heart to the point that God Hikmself hardens their heart.

Brother wrote:That is when one knows something is of the Holy Spirit but one calls it evil. Unsaved people wouldn't recognize anything from the Holy Spirit to blaspheme Him.To be called a blasphemer, is similar to taking the Lord's name in vain. They claim they are members of the body of Christ, yet by their actions, they deny the power of the Holy Spirit to transform them so that they might be saved. 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was. I write this to highlight what repentance brings into the lives of those who live by faith. Repentance begins with God always. A believer will always find that his mind and heart needs to repent of the ways that God has revealed to him. He is given the choice to obey or disobey. John writes of this in 1 John: 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. This teaching by John is not being realized in those who Paul warns Timothy of in the church of Ephesus. In ChristJeff

Brother Matt wrote:thus repentance leads to a new mind and that new mind leads to further repentance as we see with our new mind what our sin truelly means.But there is more in this passage we see WHY the Lord wants to forgive us:V.52 That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee."God will lighten our eyes and give us a little reviving in our bondage"Prov. 13:12 \tHope deferred makes the heart sick,\tBut when the desire comes, it is a tree of life. Hope deferred makes the heart sick....how does this verse relate to what Brother Matt has written?In ChristJeff

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;Who's repentance?1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.Who's forgiveness? Who's cleansing? Why? In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:Who's forgiveness? Who's cleansing? Why? 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.The work of Jesus is that which this Scripture speaks of in these words..."to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."The renewing of the mind, the softening of the heart, these things are available to those who confess their sins...What is the manifestation of this work of the Holy Spirit?This manifestation reveals The King of Righteousness, The King of Peace... to the inner man. Prov. 13:12 \tHope deferred makes the heart sick,\tBut when the desire comes, it is a tree of life. Hope deferred speaks of the things we do that seperate us from the Lord...the deceit of sin heardens the heart...the heart is sick...Repentance allows the desire for God to grow in us, it reveals to us the "Life" that grows in us. The growth of the "life" in us resembles the growth of a tree. It begins as a seed, yet it becomes a wonderous work that testifies of the glory of God...In ChristJeff

Here's an interesting and informative text sermon delivered by brother John Wesley. Good stuff!The Repentance of Believershttp://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/sermons.htm#v.xiv-p0.2

Excellent Logic!