The Icy Wind of Poverty Blowing in the Air ...

Our Lord has me pretty quiet these days in what i believe to be my calling toward the particular church/pastor He's assigned me to for the past 20 years, but from time to time He'll still lay something on my heart to post here on SI ... So here goes ...Night before last as i was praying and just talking out loud to our Lord, a very bone chilling, icy March wind was whistling outside my window ... And as i was just praising and thanking our Lord for His gift of the heat in my humble apartment, Holy Spirit dropped into my spirit that an analogous "icy wind of poverty" is blowing in the air toward America ... And that tho in the past 20 years (or so) He has raised up some to warning us regarding the ugly "poverty" that's soon to manifest itself in our midst - few have heeded - and most, including His own, will be taken completely by surprise ... Over the past 10 years (or so) He's really been impressing on me the economic horrors that are coming to America, and as a watchman on the wall i've been sounding the alarm to all in my path - saved and unsaved alike ... But it's the reaction of we saved folk that has most distressed me ... First off the greater majority of saved folk i've spoken to don't even feel like we need to be concerned about the precarious position our extravagant, over extended, debt laden life style has placed us in as individuals, families, communities, a nation, and most importantly as His Church ... Most feel like that if (in fact) anything drastic is about to happen, it's surely about to happen to the un-saved only and that as saved folk somehow - tho we're just as leveraged out as the world - we're ALL gonna somehow be miraculously spared from any and ALL economic hardships that America, and the globe is about to encounter ...To me most of we American saints are the epitome of Rev:[17] "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" ... It's brought great sadness to my heart that many an un-repentant saint is about to be introduced to the harsh fact of our spiritual nakedness expressly by experiencing "the icy wind of poverty" ... Sad to say, but true, nothing seems to focus our attention on God like need - especially financial need ... Just as nothing seems to force "community" like disaster - disaster that for we (all to individualistic) American saints will force mutual need into mutual sharing like that of the Acts chapter 2 Church ... "[44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common; [45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. [46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, [47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ... Hard to fathom huh? ... God spare our lives, just keep on living and see ... Art Katz speaks of this in his sermon;Future Trends for the Body of Christhttp://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID5037.mp3As i've once said before, what Holy Spirit has shown me in regards America is it's not because of the actions of the heathen's in America that we've come to the societal degredation we've come to, but because of the enactions of the "salt and light", His Church, His Bride, we His folk, who're the real cause of what has occured, and what's about to befall ...Yep the un-saved, the heathen, are about to be tried in the fire of our refinement, for He's gonna have His Bride without spot or wrinkle before it's all over with, because even tho He's allowed us to become "unsavory", His promise is that He'll not leave us that way for long ... And so one day, "out of" what most of us unlistening, un-heeding, un-repentant, far to pre-occupied with the things of the world saints call "the clear blue" His Rev. 3:[19] correction will fall on us, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."Our Lord has instructed me concerning this "correction" via many different venues over the years and one of the things that has always stuck out to me is how so many folk attribute the unfolding of world events to anyone, or anything else but God Himself ... Our Lord has me now listening to a very well meaning saint who has a radio program that exposes technically all of the why's our economy has come to the brink of this disaster, but he has the taint of "conspiracy" blinding him as to who really brings princes and nations to nothing ... For me Isa. 40: 15-24 and 41:4 puts into proper perspective all the transpires in this world regarding principalities, governments, and powers, and this is the scriptural message of urgency i feel led of our Lord to post ...TO ALL NATIONS: IT'S TIME TO REPENT - GET RIGHT WITH GOD - AND SEEK THE GUIDANCE OF HOLY SPIRIT ...Isa.40[15] Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, HE taketh up the isles as a very little thing.[17] All nations before HIM are as nothing; and they are counted to HIM less than nothing, and vanity.[21] Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?[22] It is HE that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:[23] That bringeth the princes to nothing; HE maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.[24] Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and HE shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.Isa.41[4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am HE.TO ALL SAINTS: IT'S TIME TO REPENT - GET RIGHT WITH GOD - AND SEEK THE GUIDANCE OF HOLY SPIRIT ...1Cor.10[14] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.1Tim.6[6] But godliness with contentment is great gain.[7] For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.[8] And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.[9] But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.[10] For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.[11] But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.[12] Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.1Cor.6[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.2Tim.2[22] Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.Jas.4[4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.[5] Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?[6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.[7] Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.[8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.[9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.[10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.[11] Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.[12] There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?[13] Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:[14] Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.[15] For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.[16] But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.Heb.12[1] Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.[3] For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.[4] Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.[5] And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:[6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.[7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?[8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.[9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?[10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.[11] Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.[12] Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;[13] And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.[14] Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:Rev.2[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.[16] Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.[21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.Rev.3[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.2Cor.4[8] We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;[9] Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;[17] For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;[18] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.1John.2[17] And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.Fellow saints i've come to the conclusion that no matter what goes down ... No matter what God has in store for us (for truly He is the only one who knows) ... What we should all want to be, and need to be, is clear before Him in as much purity as we can possibly muster ... Not by our might, nor by our power, but by His Spirit is the only way this is possible ... There are sure to be many of us who will experience our "repentance from dead works" reactively to His harsh grace, but how much more pleasing to Him, and consoling to ourselves, that we repent pro-actively back to our first love, and works ... John.4:[35] Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.TO AMERICA THE GREAT: IT'S TIME TO REPENT - GET RIGHT WITH GOD - AND SEEK THE GUIDANCE OF HOLY SPIRIT ...Jas.5[1] Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.[2] Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.[3] Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.[4] Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.[5] Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.[6] Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.[7] Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.[8] Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.God has great patience ...2Pet.3:[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.But even His great patience has an end ...Gen.6[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man ...Therefore:Isa.55[6] Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:[7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.Finally saints, it dawned on me the other day a miracle in which our Lord has changed me in what i believe to be His calling of me ... When i first started out in 1985 i used to pull my hair out shouting, "Will ya'll please listen to me" ... Now i literally don't have any hair, and my shout has become, "Will ya'll please listen to the Word of the Lord" ... Hallaleujah to He who began His good work in us all, and is determined by His Spirit to finish us into the very likness of His beloved Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ...BLESSED BE THE NAME OF OUR LORD! ... REPENT! ... FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND ... Amen

Thanks for sharing what the Holy Spirit laid on your heart. Judgment does begin the house of God. (EDIT: 1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?)I too believe that judgment from God is soon upon us, not only on the US but most of the world. It's not a popular message but a scriptural one. Today is the day of salvation and I pray that we heed the warnings. There is tremendous grace available to all who will heed the call to surrender all to Jesus and follow Him.Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

Hmm... didn't you predict that we would enter into another war last year prior to the turn of the year?

You know lately, in my spirit I sense a change coming too. I really think it will be financial as well, and we who know that these things are coming should warn others, but also make sure our houses are in order too.I have been ill for over two weeks now, which has given me much time to pray. Sometimes I can only weep, other times all that comes forth are groans. I say this because this has never happened before, but I sens that God is birthing something in me, and in the "un-official church" made of living stones.

King Jimmy you wrote;"Hmm... didn't you predict that we would enter into another war last year prior to the turn of the year?"No brother that wasn't me ... Our Lord has never laid anything on my heart, or in my spirit about prediction of war ... Everything i've heard in my spirit, and i believe led to via other venues in support, has to do soley with economic disaster here in America ...Info on America's Precarious Economy (Audio) ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4586&forum=35#71502Perhaps you have me confused with someone else ... But everything i've posted is a matter of public record here on SI if you'd care to go back to be sure ...Blessings to you in Christ,Bro R

Finances mean nothing to the Elect who walk in the Protection of His Truth.Isn't it interesting that most of our brethren around the world live in poverty yet are wealthier than us. I have really been challenged lately by this thought. When Jesus called Peter, and the others they immediately left their nets, and followed Him. They didn't check with anyone to see if it was ok, they just went. Peter was married, the sons of Zebedee left their father standing in the boat. Yet they went. No promise of money, or even of success.Reminds me a little of the Revelation to John where it says 'you say you are rich, increased with goods, and in need of nothing, but I say you are poor, wretched, vile, and naked'

Isn't it interesting that most of our brethren around the world live in poverty yet are wealthier than us. So true it is. There's no real move of the Spirit in the West as there is among the persecuted church.How often that verse from Revelations 3 has been the cry of my heart and once we're totally honest with Jesus that when we discover that he's standing at the door.I pray that the brethren here would be overcomers, because if we're not it looks rather bleak when you read what was said of the seven churches. May Jesus be exalted in our lives, in every decision and every move that we make.As far as judgment goes, I don't know anyone who would wish that on the U.S. that are followers of Christ but there is a judgment unto repentance and that's my prayer and that's what I'm asking Jesus for for my own heart first.One of my favorite subjects in college many years ago was economics and I can tell you that what is going on now defies reason and we're truly living on "grace time" as Pastor David Wilkerson has said on a number of occasions in some of his recent sermons over the last few months. Congress just approved the debt limit for the U.S. government to $9,000,000,000,000 and folks that's a lot of money, which we'll likely never be able to repay.I don't have a "thus saith the Lord" word but it's clear to me that we're living in Matthew 24. I pray that we wake up while there is still time to get oil for our lamps...

As David Wilkerson has said, and I say too, "I am not a prophet" but there are patterns in scripture that cannot be ignored. History bears out the same thing. When the Roman Empire began to get full of itself, and let the family go, and the morals go, it destroyed itself fromthe inside, and I believe that we are doing the same. I mean come on President Bush is meeting with porn actresses at GOP functions. This does not sound family friendly to me :-P

Hi roaringlamb and others.Isn't it interesting that most of our brethren around the world live in poverty yet are wealthier than us.What a tremendous opportunity we have here in the west to share our resources with beleivers in poorer nations. And not just our monies. The liberties of speech, comfort, and leisure that are everyday renewed and so near to being universal in their availability to such a vast proportion of our population are, when coupled with the surpassing riches of the Gospel of Christ, a blessing that is out of measure.And what shall be required of it?And what if we have failed to give even a cup of cold water in His name?

Rahman,Sad to say, but true, nothing seems to focus our attention on God like need - especially financial needWe probably see eye to eye on many things, but I’m not so sure about this commonly taught idea.I believe many American Christians might say “amen” to your prophecy with their lips, yet in their hearts will say “not me if I can help it!” and then run off to purchase "God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression" by David Wilkerson. Their repentance will not be spiritual but financial…they might even practice fervent debt reduction, and tithing and giving. They may seem revived, but axis of their potter’s wheel will still be money.So we shouldn’t expect that visions of financial disaster (which may actually reinforce the idea that wealth is a central blessing in God's economy,) would produce authentic Godly sorrow. Truly, only the Holy Spirit can open blinded eyes. For years now I have had trouble reconciling the message that 'Jesus' kingdom is not of this world,' with the prophet’s message that God rewards or punishes earthly kingdoms according to their obedience. He says "Peter, put away your sword," but then gives America victory in war against her enemies for her obedience. He says, "Take no thought for your life, …is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Yet, a prophecy warning “that money will be taken” is evidence that God might want us to fret over meat and clothing after all, and that material wealth is central to His economy. If we say that God giveth money and taketh money away in proportion to our wickedness, how will our prayers ascend to heaven any higher then mere bargains “Cast me not away from thy blessing: and take not thy money from me."?I know we all understand this, (as Meagain mentioned) but I feel it worth repeating: the final famine is a famine of God’s Word. "Cast me not away from thy presence: and take not thy Holy Spirit from me." All other "punishments" may actually be grace...opportunities to experience the sustaining comfort of the Holy Spirit. I do not assume that you disagree, nor do I necessarily disagree with the vision below. However, I think even the prophetic eyesight that sees furthest down the road, can always benefit from slightly sharper focus! Financial disaster may indeed be in our near future…but in of itself will do nothing to turn our hearts to God. Indeed, some men will lose everything and curse God. Yet, because of the Holy Spirit, others will see their homes’ lost and their wealth disappear but they will praise God all the more as they gain Christ and increase in love! Your fervent spirit is always a blessing and an encouragement to me Rahman,MC

bro MikeI believe many American Christians might say “amen” to your prophecy with their lips, yet in their hearts will say “not me if I can help it!” and then run off to purchase "God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression" by David Wilkerson. Their repentance will not be spiritual but financial…they might even practice fervent debt reduction, and tithing and giving. They may seem revived, but axis of their potter’s wheel will still be money.i think you have a point here bro mike but look at your choice of words and the order in which they came out (not by chance bro) you said american christians. american christians will indeed not repent truthfully but seek to make their lives secure by their own hand and unsuccessfully so because they are americans first. now Christians Americans on the other hand will be moved to repentance because they see their life in God as first and eventually it will become all. So we shouldn’t expect that visions of financial disaster (which may actually reinforce the idea that wealth is a central blessing in God's economy,) would produce authentic Godly sorrow. Truly, only the Holy Spirit can open blinded eyes. the visions will not compel many to repent, some will though. however in the midst of that suffering those that would repent will indeed do so and those whose hearts are hard and hardened by God will not. those that would repent like you said will have been moved to do so by His Holy Spirit.For years now I have had trouble reconciling the message that 'Jesus' kingdom is not of this world,' with the prophet’s message that God rewards or punishes earthly kingdoms according to their obedience. He says "Peter, put away your sword," but then gives America victory in war against her enemies for her obedience. He says, "Take no thought for your life, …is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Yet, a prophecy warning “that money will be taken” is evidence that God might want us to fret over meat and clothing after all, and that material wealth is central to His economy. If we say that God giveth money and taketh money away in proportion to our wickedness, how will our prayers ascend to heaven any higher then mere bargains “Cast me not away from thy blessing: and take not thy money from me."?oh bro mike i feel you here!i've oft struggled with reconciling what goes on and what God says and it made my head hurt. until i realized or rather until the Lord revealed it to me through wrestling with Romans 9, that i am a vessel of mercy and the way in which God sees His plan through is no concern of mine, i simply say "Lord, you know, show me what i need to do for you." who knows the mind of God and has given Him counsel? His ways are above ours so much so that what He does rarely makes sense till much later if at all. bro mike the prophecy that money will be taken is not for us to fret over it but to make what the word said (and you repeated in your post in the above section)"take no thought of your life" concrete because then we will see the Lord's miraculous provision for His saints. wealth is important in His economy though not central, but the thing with wealth is that it is to be used for the betterment of the body rather than for the receiver to live like a pasha.of course this is not to say we should be careless but see that the Lord's will is done with whatever He gives us.I know we all understand this, (as Meagain mentioned) but I feel it worth repeating: the final famine is a famine of God’s Word. "Cast me not away from thy presence: and take not thy Holy Spirit from me." All other "punishments" may actually be grace...opportunities to experience the sustaining comfort of the Holy Spirit. oh brother mike and sis annie! this is it, it is better to suffer on this side and be compelled to repent rather than suffer the second death from which there is no coming back. Paul said about that man in corinth who was sleeping with his stepmom that he gave him over to satan for torment so that his spirit would live though his body died. like bro R said this is harsh grace and mercy. bro mike like yu said (hey that rhymes)some will curse God and others will repent. this will be one of the things the Lord uses to separate His own from Satan's own. for those of us called to be vessels of mercy and charged with the task of bringing in the sheaves, it's about to get busy.praise God the time has come.AMEN!

brethreni was talking to my brother-in-law James (Jimm) a couple of days ago who is in zimbabwe at work for the Lord raising up and equipping saints for the work ahead. Zimbabwe at the moment is in a state of economic collapse. inflation is 800% (it was 600% a month or 2 ago) and increasing, unemployment is about 80% so things are bad. that kinda thing is on it's way here however James brought to mind something i'd not thought about. back home in zimbabwe there isn't as great a sense of national pride as there is here. for james, the Lord is his portion so he's not concerned for anything save for the work of God but he said he couldn't imagine living life back in zimbabwe as bad as it is without the Lord. brethren what about those with such national pride who know not the Lord and will suffer through what is coming?i was driving on the freeway earlier coz i had to run some errands before work andi saw many people driivng brand new cars and new homes being built and i wondered "Lord how many people will have cars and homes reposessed when this happens." the thought was rather sobering.for those that would, REPENT, REPENt, REPENT OR DIE!!!

sis dorcasWe has this over here a few years ago. Here's what our government did after they picked up the pieces of an unprecedented number of repossessions.... they changed the law to make it less disadvantageous legally and to personal reputation and pride, to go bankrupt. This has come into force recently. wow y'all are making it easier to file bankruptcy while here it's been made harder...The other thing they've done is ruthlessly to let go manufacturing industry, even to leave some in place knowing they will crash (even knowing some business leaders are making a killing at the expense of workers) sooner or later, but being ready to 'assist' people into training or new, less skilled 'work'.government deregulation of industry leading to mass corruption and corperate looting eg ENRON, MCI etc and leaving many without anything at all. Everyone here (UK) who has had money to invest longterm, has been putting it into property, and so HMG knows the one thing which must not happen, is a property crash, such as we had ten years ago. This is exercising the best economic minds in the country, because we really will be in trouble if the property market comes down too fast. While this is happening, mortgages are already out of hand. People are having to choose between having a family or a house of their own.we have a housing bubble here that people ae riding which is set to burst. people are getting all kinds of financing for homes they can't afford. if you have low credit you can get a no down payment loan for your house with no problem really. then you have this refinancing thing where people borrow against the equity in their homes even up to 125% of the home's value :-o i mean it's absolute lunacy i think. Lastly, Mr Brown's 'war chest' as it was jokingly called until we really did go to 'war', has been bolstered by his longterm policy of undermining the national pension fund. No-one has said so, but there is definitely a political move to force people to be more dependent on each other or themselves, rather than central provision. Nothing wrong with that as a longterm policy, but they are bringing it in so fast, that some who've paid into the scheme for forty years, are about to be seriously short-changed on their investment. It's the same story.the deficit here has been raised to $9 trillion to accomodate the iraq war and other things. i think by the end of the year at least we'll be in it with iran too...then i know you have heard about the social security issue and how that pot is running low...our greed and corruption will surely be exposed as will are shallow faith. those who know the Lord will be separated from those who purport to be His in the hard times to come.for those that would, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!

Here are two observations about the state of mind here in California.I have 4 friends who have bought houses in the last month. The lowest price is for a two bedroom condo for $350000. Two others have purchased homes in the $450000 range. One other has just signed a contract with a developer to build a house for $700000. During these times I have heard that some have taken a loan that matures in 5 years. They have no down payment. Their particular loan is interest only with a Negative Amortization concept. What that means is that they can't afford to pay the monthly payment on the loan so they are allowed to pay one half of the monthly payment that is only interest. The other half of the payment of interest is added onto the principle of what is owed on the house. So at the end of 5 years, they owe more than what they paid for the house by a substantial amount. These people have to work two jobs, or depend on overtime to make ends meet. What a way to live!The second oberservation...speaks to the mentality of people who live in Santa Clarita California. The average price of a house is above $500000. The average credit card debt is $33000. The people are drunk with wine. In ChristJeff

Brother Mike wrote:I believe many American Christians might say “amen” to your prophecy with their lips, yet in their hearts will say “not me if I can help it!” and then run off to purchase "God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression" by David Wilkerson. Their repentance will not be spiritual but financial…they might even practice fervent debt reduction, and tithing and giving. They may seem revived, but axis of their potter’s wheel will still be money.My pastor and I were discussing 2 Timothy 3 the other day. We shared stories of what we saw in today's christianity. We shared incredible stories of people who put their trust in finances. We shared observations of how people have been led to believe that government will take care of them. My pastor spoke of the example of God's judgment on Egypt. All the plagues sent by God were focused on destroying the idols of Egypt. Then we looked to our nation and acknowledged the idols of this nation. We thought to ourselves, there is nothing in us that can prepare us for what is coming. Then we concluded that the most important thing we can do is to point the people to Christ. If Christ becomes the Rock, what storm can prevail? In ChristJeff

MeAgain you posted under ...Poverty of The TruthQuote: If HIS Truth is not first and foremost our priority, second or equal only to Loving as He does, we are lost.Finances mean nothing to the Elect who walk in the Protection of His Truth.They need nothing more. His Will is their "meat".The LORD is their Shepherd, and they have no further WANTS.Well that pretty much sums it up ... This goes into my SI Forum "To Keep" folder!Lord Bless!

Bro. Mike,When i stated;"Sad to say, but true, nothing seems to focus our attention on God like need - especially financial need".i say this from a historical view as in what i've read regarding the history of thechurch/protestantism/Christianity in America, particularly in the past 50 years ... To me the "Go-Go 80's" were pretty much like the "Roaring 20's" - a time of America's creating astronomical wealth in a sea of reckless decadence with no respect to God or His laws, only to have it seemingly disappear in an instance, shocking an entire nation, and the world into dumb-foundedness ... Check out the link below ...Protestantism in America: A Narrative History by Jerald C. Brauerhttp://www.religion-online.org/showbook.asp?title=1663You may also want to check out; Chapter 16: War and the Gay ‘20’s (in which it speaks of another gospel called "the social gospel) and ...Chapter 18: The Problem of Renewal ... The following is an excerpt from the link posted directly after this if you want to read the whole thing;Chapter 17: Depression, War, and Aftermath ...The depression had a devastating effect on the Churches as well as on the nation. In the optimistic flush of the ‘20’s many congregations had built new edifices far too large and expensive. When the depression hit, they found themselves unable to pay. Most carried their huge debts; a few rejected their obligation, thus bringing shame on the Christian Church Colleges and publishing houses, missionary enterprises, and the social work of the Churches were all hard hit by the depression. Many an institution of the Church lost its endowment in the financial crash and had to close or had to drastically cut back its activities.But the physical effects of the depression were only part of its devastation. It left deep spiritual and mental wounds. It destroyed the utter self-confidence of the ‘20’s, and it gave birth to a despair and lack of confidence. What an opportunity for the Churches to interpret the meaning of this event! Yet, the Churches profited little in terms of growth. There was no surge of a repentant people to the Churches. There was no appreciable increase in the numbers of churches. There was no great revival which swept the nation.Perhaps that was good. The Churches did not lose members because of the catastrophe; neither did they make great gains. They did seem to grow in their depth of understanding the meaning of suffering and sacrifice in the Christian life. This was no time for an emotional outburst that would sweep millions into the Church. It was a time for sober reappraisal of the kind of message the Church had preached and of its relevance for modern life.While the larger Protestant denominations were busy with their reappraisal and their ministering to the spiritual needs of the nation, there was one segment of Protestantism that profited greatly by the depression. This was the group of Churches usually called "sects." They stressed the radical, emotional conversion of the sinner and the new life lived in all holiness. They stressed the presence of the operation of God’s Holy Spirit and the rebirth through him; thus, they were called Pentecostals. Some of them spoke with strange, unintelligible utterances, most practiced faith healing, and all advocated a rigorous moral life. Among these were such groups as the Nazarenes, the Assemblies of God, and the Holiness or Pentecostal Churches.Though the Protestant Churches did not experience a large increase in membership, except for the extreme sectarian groups, they too went through a profound and invaluable experience as a result of the depression. For too long they had preached and taught a rather shallow message which was a watering down of the full insights of the gospel. No age perfectly comprehends God’s message of judgment and redemption, but some ages become so smug in their interpretation of that message that they fail to stand under it. They often pick that side of it which justifies their own wellbeing and earthly possessions.Though liberal theology and the social gospel contained many valuable elements necessary for their age, they also played into the hands of the age by their emphasis. People of the ‘20’s were convinced that Christianity meant literally following the Golden Rule -- doing to others as one would wish to be treated; that it stood for the gradual building of the Kingdom on earth by men of good will if only men would exert enough good will; and that through friendliness and kindness that Kingdom was slowly being built in America.Suddenly the Protestant Churches were confronted with the stark reality of the failure of their dreams. Under all the supposed goodness and friendliness of the prosperous ‘20’s were to be found greed and pride. Man suddenly was shown to be no higher on the moral scale, no less selfish than his medieval brethren. In place of a new stage in the Kingdom of God men had arrived at a shattered economy. The consequence was a new look at some old Protestant doctrines that had been largely ignored -- sin, faith, and justification were once more relevant.Between the ‘20’s and the opening of the Second World War there was a general shift in both the pulpit and the theological schools of America. IT was directly related to the change that had taken place in Europe, particularly among German theologians. It marked the return of American Protestantism to one of its genuine roots -- a deeper concern for the beliefs and theology that underlie action. Over twenty outstanding preachers and teachers wrote short articles in The Christian Century explaining how their minds had changed in the period 1930-1940. Truly a great change had come. Its full significance cannot be assessed yet.Most liberal American pastors and theologians were not willing to change their liberalism and also retained their social concern. Of course, large numbers, particularly in the South and in the rural districts, had never accepted such a point of view. But some who had adopted liberalism wished to retain its good points while rejecting some of its false emphasis. This was a difficult thing to do and was made doubly difficult by those liberals who saw no need for a change. Nevertheless, progress was made.Once more American pulpits spoke of man’s sin and selfishness, not just as some temporary condition stemming from physical needs but as a basic pride and perversion in the very center of his will. No longer did one hear so much about the inevitable progress in goodness and the gradual building of God’s Kingdom. God was at work in history, yet also high and mighty, lifted up, beyond history -- the Creator and Redeemer. Rather than emphasis on man good will and good deeds as the basis of man’s action, stress was placed on the forgiveness of sins through God in Christ, the centrality of the cross revealing God’s creative love to which man responded in trust and obedience.So a shift occurred in American theology and preaching. This was reflected in magazine articles, in books, and in seminary curriculums. Once more, as in the past, theology was becoming the center of the training for the pastor. This really did not get under way until during and after the Second World War, but even in the late ‘30’s there was a move in that direction. What a man believes, that he will do. What are the basic beliefs of the Christian faith? How are they related to modern life? Are they relevant? If so, how can they be presented to modern man? These are not questions of techniques. They are questions of the wellsprings of life; they are theological questions.- End of excerpt -The major difference i see in the economic upheaval that's about to hit us is i believe REVIVAL will come out of it, because world events seem to be slowly, and agonizingly making the American public more and more uneasy, and unlike the first Great Depression there's now many a saint/everyman who're locked into the stock market either by personal investment in it, pensions/401K's, or both ...Bro. Mike you further posted ... Quote:"I believe many American Christians might say “amen” to your prophecy with their lips, yet in their hearts will say “not me if I can help it!” and then run off to purchase "God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression" by David Wilkerson. Their repentance will not be spiritual but financial…they might even practice fervent debt reduction, and tithing and giving. They may seem revived, but axis of their potter’s wheel will still be money.To this let me say by experience, "No, they won't even say amen with their lips to what i posted, let alone with their hearts" ... Most have already said "yea and amen" to the false prophets who've made themselves spiritual stock brokers and God the big CEO in the sky ... Far to many saints are already hooked into the "seed for personal greed divine dividend scam" which is also shortly to come tumbling down like those daubed walls spoken of by Ezekiel ... So i don't think we have to worry about to many American saints reacting (even w/ alterior motive) to any "word" attached to 1Cor.10:14, and 1 Tim. 6-12 ... And i doubt very many folk now or then will pick up bro. Dave's book because few saints own up to the signs of these times, and to those who may have bought his book i would re-iterate what i posted first;Quote;"Fellow saints i've come to the conclusion that no matter what goes down ... No matter what God has in store for us (for truly He is the only one who knows) ... What we should all want to be, and need to be, is clear before Him in as much purity as we can possibly muster ... Not by our might, nor by our power, but by His Spirit is the only way this is possible ..."And i said this meaning that if any financial ill is to befall me, tho i've heeded what i believe i've heard Him say for the past 20 years, by my keeping myself ever repentant, ever clear, holding every thought captive before Him, then i'll not have to be wrestling with "have my own sins and disobedience brought this upon me" in the midst of this storm, as opposed to my being able to lift up my head and holy hands towards Him in praise knowing (from Job) that my test is of some service and benefit to Him ... You continued;Quote;"So we shouldn’t expect that visions of financial disaster (which may actually reinforce the idea that wealth is a central blessing in God's economy,) would produce authentic Godly sorrow. Truly, only the Holy Spirit can open blinded eyes."Ha! ... ha! ... but isn't this already the problem? ... That man, even in the Body of Christ has already set up wealth as the central blessing in God's economy? (tho of course we know Christ is) ... Scripture says that "It is God who gives the ability to get wealth", and it's obvious to me that we're now much more interested in the gift than the Giver ... Wealth has become our chief idol, and as with all idols when it comes to our jealous God with His people, He will knock it down ... If it's wealth that's blocking our vision to Him, then what needs to be removed to unblock it? ... For those saints with the correct spirit/heart/mind set this upheaval is not gonna knock the Spirit of God wind out of our sails, but will fill us ever more to even greater works of love and compassion in Him toward our fellow/saints/man ... As you said, "Indeed, some men will lose everything and curse God. Yet, because of the Holy Spirit, others will see their homes’ lost and their wealth disappear but they will praise God all the more as they gain Christ and increase in love! " ... And finally (whew!) as to the other God questions you posted, i've been brought to a point lately of where i'm not questioning God much anymore ... So i agree with what bro Ironman has posted, especially coming re: Rom. 9 ... i like you, am a vessel of His mercy to do with as He pleases ... Scripture says, "Whatsoever is not of faith is a sin" and so whatever i beleieve i hear Him prompting me to do, i do ... i don't have to know all of the intricacies, all i have to know is that He's in total control and i'm learning to rest in that ... Heb.4:[1] Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. [2] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. [3] For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.ON JESUS CHRIST THE SOLID ROCK I/WE STAND - ALL ELSE IS SINKING SAND!Lord bless you bro. Mike ...

Sis Dorcas ...i take it you're in the UK ... i could'nt believe my eyes after going to a site Bro. Dom posted showing each country's debt ... i know ours (US) is $9 trillion now but was shocked that as of 30 June 2005 the United Kingdom's is $7,107,000,000,000 ... The first thing i thought was how much smaller the UK is than the US and it has that much debt ... Yikes!

We thought to ourselves, there is nothing in us that can prepare us for what is coming.Then we concluded that the most important thing we can do is to point the people to Christ. If Christ becomes the Rock, what storm can prevail? Finances mean nothing to the Elect who walk in the Protection of His Truth.They need nothing more. His Will is their "meat".Amen Jeff, Rahman, and AnnieWe Christians have to navigate between a thousand prophets on our left and a thousand more on our right. Some prophets are pointing and laughing saying, "Look! Angels are pouring bowls of blessings on our heads!" and other prophets are pointing and crying, "Look! Bowls of wrath are being poured out!"What we really need 'sight' of is Jesus. MC

Thanks for your response Rahman.I hope I didn't seem that I was 'sharply' disagreeing...I think I was trying to telecsope into your premise a little more. I can certainly see how revival and financial struggles are linked. Thanks for the info you've sent along. I have an antique "History of Christianity in America" book published in the late 1800's. I think you might find it interesting that when it came to the Revolutionary War, the book did not sing our modern familiar "God Bless America" chorus. Instead the text laments the historical fact that the war for independence distracted the American Church from spiritual affairs and set our Christian theology on a steady course of caring for temporal affairs of state. That "history" of the Revolutionary War was written over a hundred years ago. Isn't it ironic? America the free has become a nation of debtors! Apparently we have forgotten that there is a Gospel higher then the Declaration of Independence. We will have no liberty untill we are bound to Christ!Love you bro!MC

Bro. Mike you wrote;"I hope I didn't seem that I was 'sharply' disagreeing...I think I was trying to telecsope into your premise a little more. I can certainly see how revival and financial struggles are linked."Sharply disagreeing? ... Ha! ... ha! ... No my brother it doesn't seem that way at all ... Trust me, from someone who has been "sharply" disagreed with ...I also wanted to point out that in the history of the first Great Depression i posted it states that no revival came out of it per-se, but it did get folks attention ... It's my own personal belief that revival will come out of this next one, and that because i believe Holy Spirit has told me that it's coming, tho He did not expressly say that it would come out of this economic decline - so for the record this is something i've formulated in my own reasoning in that so many of America's debtors are in fact believers ...You continued;"I have an antique "History of Christianity in America" book published in the late 1800's. I think you might find it interesting that when it came to the Revolutionary War, the book did not sing our modern familiar "God Bless America" chorus. Instead the text laments the historical fact that the war for independence distracted the American Church from spiritual affairs and set our Christian theology on a steady course of caring for temporal affairs of state."You know Mike i don't know much about this, but i wonder if that was the start of "the social Gospel" that seemed to become a ever increasing part of the Church ... I know it was in full effect by the time of the Civil Rights Movement ... You finished;"Isn't it ironic? America the free has become a nation of debtors! Apparently we have forgotten that there is a Gospel higher then the Declaration of Independence. We will have no liberty untill we are bound to Christ!"Amen ... May that final point be made clear to all we that are washed in His Blood ...love you to bro! ... :-D Rahman

It's my own personal belief that revival will come out of this next one, and that because i believe Holy Spirit has told me that it's coming, tho He did not expressly say that it would come out of this economic decline...This connects some things in your original post for me....so for the record this is something i've formulated in my own reasoning in that so many of America's debtors are in fact believers ...It's funny, but I think all of us can probably recall a time where some poor brother was praising God in church testimony for the blessing of a new car or house...never realizing God hadn't quite given it yet...at least not untill a 180 mortgage payments had been made! Still, those of us in the congregation would applaud just the same! (weeee! A big fat payment book!:-P )For the vast majority of Americans today, credit is the only door to home ownership. That wouldn't be so bad if it weren't that homes are trending more expensive and more expansive. My goodness, I remember the kind of 'average' house being built when I was a kid...today everywhere I drive I see mile after mile of cavernous residential architecture with price tags starting in the basement of $200,000 and shooting up. Thankfully I do know of many believers who have downsized, and many more young ones who are more cautious about grabbing all the credit they can get. I also have some relatives whose individual familes were separated or broken either through death or divorce...so they purchased a home and became a reformed household together. It's become a rare sight in the US, to see several generations of family all living under one small roof, sharing expenses and chores...from grandmother to schoolchildren.Maybe they are a peek at many of our futures. Family men, better make sure your in-laws like you! :lol: MC

Bro Mike you wrote;"It's funny, but I think all of us can probably recall a time where some poor brother was praising God in church testimony for the blessing of a new car or house...never realizing God hadn't quite given it yet...at least not untill a 180 mortgage payments had been made! Still, those of us in the congregation would applaud just the same! (weeee! A big fat payment book! )For the vast majority of Americans today, credit is the only door to home ownership. "You know when i was coming up my dad always quoted to us the scriptures "Be content with such things as you have" and "Godliness with contentment is great gain", these whenever my bro's and myself "wanted" some newest trend that other kids had, and my dad would'nt supply because as he explained it wasn't a "need" ... Needless to say i hated his admonition, and vowed that when i got grown i'd get whatever i wanted ... Well i grew up and that's exactly what i began to do, satisfy my material wants ... But a major problem arose, my wants were bigger than my income ... And after i got married and began to have children my wants continued to grow, because satan is always presenting us with something bigger and more expensive to want, and then i found that now my wife and my kids had their own set of wants, which clashed with mine, and the next thing i knew my debt level was totally out of control ... My dad (died @ 63) and mom (now 80) lived their entire lives almost debt free ... Why? ... Because they were only primarily motivated by our/their "need" and not "want" - and what's more they only looked to God in the supply of their need (which as my dad said is what He promised us) ... Not so with us youngers, particularly us "boomers"...i certainly praise God for my job/income ... And i don't have any problem with praising God for supplying our needs via reasonable credit in ratio to our income, but our going way out on a credit limb to supply our own wants and then having the audacity to attach God's name to it as if it was a blessing from Him is what sets my teeth on edge ... i think all we working class folk know that more than likely we're gonna have debt in at least two areas, a house and a car, but serious supplication to God in guidance toward these purchase, and listening to His scriptural admonition will be the difference between our fulfilling a "need" instead of tying a millstone around our necks via a want ... An example for me was is in 2001 when i needed a good dependable car to get me back and forth (50 miles a day) to work ... What i wanted was a Benz, S-Class preferably, 430 if i had to, E Class as a last resort ... Well i found that i couldn't even afford the E Class comfortably ... Even tho i already knew better began to plot and plan, then i relented to seeking the Lord ... i simply said to Him, "Lord, what car do You want me to have? ... Make it plain to me, and i'll get it because i know if i get what You have for me it will be a blessing and not a curse" ... Our Lord opened up a way for me to get a brand new Maxima in 2001 with a car/insurance note i could afford ... i didn't even have to hassle with the salesman for a good price, He opened up the door for that via a guy i'd just recently hired ... i'm still driving that car, and bless God it hasn't given me one once of trouble since i had it ... You continued;"That wouldn't be so bad if it weren't that homes are trending more expensive and more expansive. My goodness, I remember the kind of 'average' house being built when I was a kid...today everywhere I drive I see mile after mile of cavernous residential architecture with price tags starting in the basement of $200,000 and shooting up."Ha! ... ha! ... that's all the work of the master deciever to pull us out into deeper waters via our wants overiding common-sense, even God-sense in us believers ... i've already posted much on this Real Estate Fiasco and the Fed, Fannie and Freddie, etc. being in cahoots to artificially drive up home prices to sucker us into borrowing against the equity to keep the "want" machine churning ... Only thing now is there's not to much debt money capability left for the masses to fuel the machine, and soon the machine will begine to devour the masses via repo's and forclosures ... All because of greed, and not learning to be content with the supplying of our needs ...Praise God that you know some folk who have downsized, i don't know any, but then most of the saints i know, and have attempted to sound alarm to, are greatly tainted by the "seed for greed" prosperity ministers ... And i totally agree with what you wrote concerning renewed generational communal living amongst blood families, as i also totally believe that the family of Christ is about to be re-introduced to the same type of early church communal sharing, soon and very soon ...You know bro. Mike this thread has made me go back down memory lane as to when and how our Lord began to minister to me about the craziness of the American economy and where it was headed, and my own need for taking financial responsibility and developing His definition of wise stewardship, and His prompting of me to share it with others ... In retrospect i can't see where it did much good with those i attempted to tell, but i sure can see where it's been of extreme benefit to me presently - and if it be His will in future also.

In my most recent AARP magazine it had an extensive article on how corporations are "freezing" out traditional pensions and replacing them with 401K's ... It also talked about how this is hurting the retirement plans of older workers between 50 & 65, most of all baby-boomers (we born between 1946 - 1964), in that out traditional pensions have been interupted ... Traditional pensions from what i'm told actually acrue the most money in the last 10 to 15 years before retirement age, and older workers thrown into new 401K's don't really have the time necessary to really benefit greatly from a 401K ... This had happened to me personally ... The company i've worked for for the past 18 years was taken over by a new company, and all of a sudden they froze my old pension plan, and threw me into a 401K ... To make matters worse the old pension plan lost money in the stock market and until it makes it back can't pay out the 60K that's my portion ... Needless to say this has caused great concern amongst the older employees on my job, but not me because i trust in our Lord - which is my witness to them ... Anyhow this is the link for anyone interested; AARP RADIOThe Great Risk Shifthttp://www.aarp.org/fun/radio/pt_radio/great_risk_shift.html But this thread and this article has made me wonder about something regarding my rebellious generation ... My generation who tore down all the ethical and moral barriers of our parents and grand-parents generations ... My drug stupored, sexually emancipated, free from God fearing hippies in the 60's, cocaine using disco-ducks in the 70's, money greedy yuppies in the 80's and mass practitioners of abortions, divorces and broken homes generation ... Is it by accident that we the generation that opened up so much demonic activity in our niave spiritual stupidity are the ones who stand to suffer the most in America's economic decline? ... Here we are now in our 50's/60's, at a time when many will be looking to aid from our pensions (because most in my "want" driven generation haven't saved much), social security, medicare and medicaid, and other government programs for the elderly, and our government for all intensive purposes is bankrupt, just at this precise time when our generation, the biggest to ever hit our government's hand out system is beginning to hit it ... If it wasn't for my faith in Christ Jesus, and the more humble repentant attitude it's made me have before God, all that our Lord has made me see would scare me to fear and trembling ... History proves to me that my generation known as "the activist generation" were in many way activist for satan, now at present and in future i pray that we will become just as activist for the cause of Christ ... For out of this coming chaos i see Revival and harvest and a blessed time of a shining city on the hill for the Church of Jesus Christ ... If i am wrong then i pray our Lord to correct me, but my dearest hope is that i am not ... Amen

Brother Rahman wrote:In my most recent AARP magazine I turn 50 in April. Does that qualify me for the AARP? Life is passing sooo fast. In ChristJeff

Hi Sis. Dorcas ...i just went over and read the comments by TS on Revival Idolatry and 2 Cents ... And you're right we do sing from, as you say, the same hymn sheet ... That's one of the things i truly love about SI, in that had our Lord not directed me to it i would have never known that he had others, in different parts of the world, proclaiming the same things, just as i would have never known that there were so many other saints hungering for a fresh, spirit/soul/flesh cleansing out pouring of God's Spirit to wash away the stain of worldliness that so many of us bear ... The other thing that our Lord has honed in me via SI is the fine skill of "being as wise as a serpent, but as gentle as a dove" ... i've found that the whole "correction, repentance, revival message" is one that the proclaimer has to learn to proclaim in humility, selflessness and love (all of which ain't easy) ...Also i've not listened to Wilkerson's "The Redeemer is Returning to Zion" yet, but i have it bookmarked to do so ...Blessings in Christ Jesus!Bro. R

Brother Jeff wrote:Quote:"I turn 50 in April. Does that qualify me for the AARP?"Yes it does bro, and may i suggest you sign up as soon as you turn 50 cause you get all kinds of discounts thru them ... AARP Member Discounts and Serviceshttp://www.aarp.org/aarp_benefits/The AARP is a very powerful lobby for us "oldsters" and the mag will keep you abreast of the things that concern us at this age our Lord has been so gracious enough to keep us to ... Thru them i've supported at least one org. determined to keep SS the private fund it was always meant to be, and not allow the Congress to get it's money grubbin hands on it to play in the stock market ... Who knows if my/our attempts will prevail, or even matter in a depression, but then i'm of the ilk that it's better to try and fail than to just sit back and bemoan while everything goes to hell in a hand-basket ... You also said;Quote:"Life is passing sooo fast."You know i've said this before, but i must not have enjoyed, or be enjoying my life as much as some others because my life thus far hasn't/doesn't seem short to me ...Blessings in Christ bro Jeff!Bro R

Wow sis. Dorcas! ... This message brought tears to my eyes ...The Redeemer is Returning to Zion: by David Wilkersonhttp://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID1304.mp3... for it's the very same thing i've been hearing from our Lord from the very first time i ever heard of the "name it claim it" false gospel over 20 years ago - And yes our Lord had me speaking out against it back then to the point that some of my friends who got caught up in it dis-associated themselves from me ...i was reading somewhere last week (can't remember where now) where the writer said that the 1980's was a time where our Lord had raised up prophets in His Church to rail against that "another gospel" that started out in so-called charismatic circles as "name it claim it" ... Dave Wilkerson, tho he always distances himself from the calling of prophet, always struck me as such because in my spirit he always sounded like one ... Then and now, when i listen to a message our Lord sends thru brother Dave two things happen to me ... #1 - i'm brought to repentance ... #2 - i'm always uplifted because the message comes thru that even tho God allows such nonsense as we get ourselves into individually and as a Body, there's an end point to His long suffering and He will do whatever's necessary to re-claim our attention ...i find it interesting that today we don't hear of to many folk (if any), especially amongst the big brand names that occupy tele-vangelism now, that rail against what has now developed into the full fledged false "prosperity gospel" ... And the few of us i know in my own circle of saints who've spoken out against the prosperity gospel got treated with disdain - and now i am not unctioned by our Lord to say anything in my circle of assignment anymore ... To me it's sounding more and more like "the quiet before the storm" ...Lately our Lord has been dealing with me with my problem of contempt ... i have to watch myself sometimes because i let self get intertwined with the warning mission i believe our Lord has me on and i get an attitude of "that's ok, just wait, you're gonna get yours" and that certainly isn't spiritual, to say nothing of not being loving ... So Holy Spirit convicts by driving home to me that if not for the grace of God there go i, and so i repent for ALL vengeance belong to our Lord ... i thank Him for using you to point me to this message because the intensity of it has brought out His compassion in me to the point that i'm feeling sorrow for the saints that as bro. Dave said, and what i've heard Him say, stand to lose everything to the point of "need" for their pursuance of "greed" ...1Tim.6[9] But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.[10] For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.Blessings in Christ!Bro. RPS - At the end of this paragraph is an interview i posted over on;Info on America's Precarious Economy (Audio) ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=4586&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0 with a man named Warren Brussee who's written a book entitled;The Second Great DepressionThis man believes that this economic upheaval in America will begin sometime in 2007 ... PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT IN PROMOTION OF ANY TIMEFRAME FOR WHAT I TOO BELIEVE OUR LORD HAS SHOWN ME WILL SHORTLY TAKE PLACE, FOR HE'S PERSONALLY GIVEN ME NO TIME FRAME ... But i do feel led of our Lord to post this for anyone who may want to understand the how and why we as a nation have come to this precipice ...This author makes it technically pretty plain ...So if you're more comfortable with keeping your head in the sand this ain't for you ...FINANCIAL SENSE NEWSHOUR (AUDIO - MP3)http://www.netcastdaily.com/broadcast/fsn2006-0318-2.mp3

This isn't about finances or anything...but something you said is important in context.Lately our Lord has been dealing with me with my problem of contempt ... i have to watch myself sometimes because i let self get intertwined with the warning mission i believe our Lord has me on and i get an attitude of "that's ok, just wait, you're gonna get yours" and that certainly isn't spiritual, to say nothing of not being lovingBro,Well said sir! I have been chafed by too many Christian men whose personal anger, fears, and even competitive natures are not crucified, but glorified with the status of "spiritual gift." How many prophets could "prophesy" even if they weren't Christians, because they don't need the Spirit...they are naturally passionate and confrontational. This isn't picking on just prophets now! I feel we all can "spiritualize" our emotions and attitudes. Maybe it's not totally unreasonable to do so... we were created for his purposes, and our different personalities and abilites are, after all, foreordained by God. Still, the challenge remains for us weak men to move from our self-image into the image of Christ! For instance I have a strong imagination which oftens over-informs my cognitive reasoning, and I tend to become anxious over situations before they even develop. Does that mean that the Lord is apprehensive about the future? My future? Of course not! I'm also a creative and affirming person...does that mean that God only builds and affirms, and never destroys? With great agitation to my own sensibilities I must admit that God is quite willing (and able) to destroy His own creation. In all of this I'm certainly not saying that personalities and attitudes are "sinful", but to be aware how they can affect our judgements. I just wanted to note that I appreciate your awareness of this tendency.Blessings!MC

Hi bro. Karl (Healing Waters) ...You wrote;"Just to make a special note from David Wilkerson's book the Vision.David says that what he saw coming was not a Depression, he was very clear on that by adding that what he saw coming was a Recession."Praise God, but maybe our Lord gave him an update because the title of bro. Dave's latest book is;God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression -http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0883686163/qid=1143124447/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-8270133-8824648?s=books&v=glance&n=283155... Depresssion is what i believe i hear our Lord instructing me, from all that i've read/listened to, is what's coming to America ... Anywho i went to my "Financial Definitions" site and have posted the meanings of words/phrases we'll be hearing more and more of as time progressesrecession;A period of general economic decline; specifically, a decline in GDP for two or more consecutive quarters.Gross Domestic Product;GDP. The total market value of all final goods and services produced in a country in a given year, equal to total consumer, investment and government spending, plus the value of exports, minus the value of imports. The GDP report is released at 8:30 am EST on the last day of each quarter and reflects the previous quarter. Growth in GDP is what matters, and the U.S. GDP growth has historically averaged about 2.5-3% per year but with substantial deviations. Each initial GDP report will be revised twice before the final figure is settled upon: the "advance" report is followed by the "preliminary" report about a month later and a final report a month after that. Significant revisions to the advance number can cause additional ripples through the markets. The GDP numbers are reported in two forms: current dollar and constant dollar. Current dollar GDP is calculated using today's dollars and makes comparisons between time periods difficult because of the effects of inflation. Constant dollar GDP solves this problem by converting the current information into some standard era dollar, such as 1997 dollars. This process factors out the effects of inflation and allows easy comparisons between periods. It is important to differentiate Gross Domestic Product from Gross National Product (GNP). GDP includes only goods and services produced within the geographic boundaries of the U.S., regardless of the producer's nationality. GNP doesn't include goods and services produced by foreign producers, but does include goods and services produced by U.S. firms operating in foreign countries.depression;A period during which business activity drops significantly. High unemployment rates and deflation often accompany a depression. deflation;A decline in general price levels, often caused by a reduction in the supply of money or credit. Deflation can also be brought about by direct contractions in spending, either in the form of a reduction in government spending, personal spending or investment spending. Deflation has often had the side effect of increasing unemployment in an economy, since the process often leads to a lower level of demand in the economy. opposite of inflation. hyperinflation;A period of rapid inflation that leaves a country's currency virtually worthless.Adjustable Rate Mortgage;ARM. A mortgage with an interest rate that may change, usually in response to changes in the Treasury Bill rate or the prime rate. The purpose of the interest rate adjustment is primarily to bring the interest rate on the mortgage in line with market rates. The mortgage holder is protected by a maximum interest rate (called a ceiling), which might be reset annually. ARMs usually start with better rates than fixed rate mortgages, in order to compensate the borrower for the additional risk that future interest rate fluctuations will create.(CBN just did a piece last night on the above mortgage type and the devestation it's doing)interest-only loan;A non-amortized loan in which interest is due at regular intervals until maturity, when the full principal on the loan is due.THIS IS A GREAT SITE TO LOOK UP ANY OF THE WORDS YOU'LL HEAR HAVING TO DO WITH ECONOMICS:INVESTOR WORDShttp://www.investorwords.com/Also regarding your Mom you said;"She said, "I can see a recession coming because that's when the Baby Boomers will start to take out their investements and go into retirement, it will cause a a financial melt down"."i'm a baby-boome too. and in 5 years (Lord willing) i'll be 60 ... Bless God that your Mom is somewhat informed because she would'nt have made that statement if she wasn't ... But note that a "recession" is not a "melt-down" but a "slow-down" - a "depression" is a "melt-down" ...Last year our Lord brought a number of books my way that showed how so many events (chickens) devestating to America's economy are all coming home to roost at the same time (thereby overwhelming our financial coup) ... i remember reading this book;The Great Bust Ahead: The Greatest Depression in American and UK History: by Daniel A. Arnoldhttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159196153X/103-8270133-8824648?_encoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155Which i thought was weak on data in some respects as to other events facing the U.S. but it was very data extensive on the cause and effects of the baby-boomer generation beginning to hit SS/Medicaid and Medicare, as well as the effect our diminished spending capacity will have on our economy ... There's so much going wrong until i'll not even attempt to write it here but this link (mp3) will provide a pretty good grasp to the brevity of this "boomer-retirement) situation;"The Coming Generational Storm: What You Need to Know About America's Economic Future"http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2004/Kotlikoff.htmli find it pretty interesting that from as far back as the first book i read some 20 years ago it's title too had in it "the coming" as so many of these type of books did/do ... i also remember how Keynesian economist poo-pooed such authors of these books as "crazy chicken littles" and now on CNN, Fox Financial and all type other shows dealing with the economy i'm hearing many of the very same words spoken by these fore-seers now coming from the lips of modern economist ... One very such interesting word is "bubble", as in "housing bubble" ...bubble;A description of rapidly rising equity prices, usually in a particular sector, that some investors feel is unfounded. The term is used because, like a bubble, the prices will reach a point at which they pop and collapse violently. i posted this before but someone reading here might find it of interest;America's Black Budget & the Manipulation of Mortgage & Financial Marketshttp://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2004/AustinFitts.htmlWhat is Keynesian Economics?Wikipediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economicsChristianity and Economics - The Fall of Keynesian Economics(this is a bit heavy but i feel led to post it too)http://www.evangelsociety.org/sherk/keynes.htmlBlessings in Christ bro!

Yeah bro. Mike ...i call that ugly side of "contempt" my Jonah factor ... but bless God He shows it to me everytime it raises it's ugly head ... and bless Him also by power and might of His Holy Spirit i'm able to repent of it and insert some Jeremiah like prayer in place of contempt ... Blessings in Christ bro!

The following is a very interesting, historically acurate, tho far from flattering interview/book regarding the so called evangelical/fundamentalist christian influence on the Republican party via the onset of Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority, which i was a member of, and it's influence in the White House during the Reagan years, and now most in particular with it's impact on the presidency of GWB, written by Fmr. GOP Strategist Kevin Phillips (once a Republican but know an Independent because of as he says "the evangelical/fundementalist hijaking of the GOP") in his latest and most intriguing book ...American Theocracy: The Peril and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money in the 21st Century - http://ia310136.us.archive.org/1/items/dn2006-0321/dn2006-0321-1_64kb.mp3(INTERVIEW IS AT MIDDLE OF .MP3 BAR, SO SLIDE IT OVER)Also a less informative interview here on NPR, but a most informative excerpt from his book - Chapter 4: Radicalized Religion - A Political Warning Shot: 'American Theocracy' http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5290373And the book itself (with over 50 reviews) here on -AMAZON - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067003486X/qid=1143498602/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-6302070-9143217?s=books&v=glance&n=283155This author reflects the consternation of many in America who see this evangelical/fundementalist influence in Washington on the same dangerous level as those they term the "apocalypse obsessed" in both Judaism and Islam ... Check out the question regarding this Pres. Bush was asked in a recent news conference ...Interesting times we're living in, and it just keeps getting more interesting with each passing day.Added: 6/9/06i initially watched this on C-Span 6/7/06 and thought it important enough to dig up and share ... It's .mp3 format (audio) ...It's former Fed Chief Allan Greenspan before the SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS, and he seems now free to be totally clear about where we as a nation are regarding oil and our economy ... http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/2006/hrg060607a.htmlCLICK ON: (Be patient it takes a while to load)Oil Dependence and Economic RiskPretty sobering testimony about America's future ... :beard:

Anymore i'm feeling like the weather-people who updated on hurricane Katrina's coming ... :-o

Our Federal Reserve, Government, and Corporate Leaders know our economy is in dire straits, and the cost of the Iraq war is putting one serious strain on an already critical situation ... Note in the .mp3 below how the author says this war is being paid for ...

[b]America's Bubble Economy[/b]
Eric Janszen, Coauthor ...
http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2006/Janszen.html (book review)
http://www.netcastdaily.com/broadcast/fsn2006-1125-2.mp3 (audio interview)

It's interesting the rosier picture our American institutions play before us, lulling us into an even more false sense of security, as The Fed cuts out its M3 report ...

[b]Fed Kills a Key Inflation Gauge[/b]
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/JubaksJournal/FedKillsAKeyInflationGauge.aspx?wa=wsignin1.0

... also they and our Government not factoring in rising food and fuel costs in their inflation indexes anymore, and allowing Corporations to hide debt that would bring down over-inflated stock prices to where they should be (Google is $500 a share - that's nuts!), while media overseas are printing such sobering headlines as these;

UK NEWS
The Times Nov 16, 2006
[b]UK Banks Told to Predict Effects of a 40% Crash in House Prices[/b](cut & paste into search)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/global/

ASIAN NEWS
Nov 21, 2006
[b]Hard U.S. Lessons, Harder Landings[/b]
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/HK21Dj02.html

Even these financial experts, as with Katrina being only a hurricane, are talking only deep recession, but also as with Katrina these financial experts are not taking into concideration the unexpected, a if you will, failure of the man made financial levees known as the "derivatives" trade ... If ever there was a time in American history where saints of God need to be on our faces in repentance, this is it! ...

[b]IT'S TIME FOR WE SAINTS TO EVACUATE (repent) FROM ALL OUR IDOLOTRIES NOW!!![/b]

[b]Rom.13[/b]
[11] And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
[12] The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
[13] Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
[14] But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

[b]Heb.12[/b]
[1] Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[b]1Tim.6[/b]
[6] But godliness with contentment is great gain.
[7] For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
[8] And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
[9] But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
[10] For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
[11] But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
[12] Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

[b]1John.2[/b]
[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[12] I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
[15] Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
[16] For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
[17] And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

[b]AT YOUR DESIGNATION, AND FOR YOUR GLORY, LORD JESUS REVIVE US PLEASE FROM BEING A CHURCH LIKE UNTO LAODICEA INTO ONE WITH THE ATTRIBUTES OF PHILADELPHIA AND SMYRNA ... AMEN[/b]

Bro Bartle ...

No i don't think the word "interesting" judgmental as i've once even discribed (as have others) my own experiences as "strange" and "weird" ... It's funny to me how many time i've had saints say to me how much they wished they had experiences with God like mine, and the shock that came across their face when i told them i wished i didn't ... Of course i don't say that now, but then i now immeniently sense in my spirit His finally revealing all that i've struggled to hold onto, believe and say all these years ... It's about to (latter) rain! :-D

Bro bartle you wrote;
"as a Jew saved by grace to an African-American man saved by grace, one of the burdens He has laid on my heart, is racial reconciliation in America, and thats not just the heavy breathing of an earnest white liberal....no"

Bro there's one thing i know, and that's apart from being in Christ there will never be any type of real racial (or any other type) reconciliation between the sons of Shem, Ham and Japheth ... Thru my research via this thread ...

Why are the Jews (Shem) Hated by so many Europeans & Russians (Japheth)? ...
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=11893&forum=48&post_id=&refresh=Go

... He taught me much on the psychological baggage we still carry from Noah's prounouncement of blessing and curses in that regard, baggage unawares because we either don't know or discount the Noachic decree as having any effect on present ...

But thank God for Jesus that when we all come into Him we become joint heirs in Him, no more this that and the other that should seperate us - but in all honesty it still does ... Now if you desire to be used of Him to address this fault amongst believers, then i pray He fire up your mouth/ministry quick!!! ... Also i believe if saints are made to rely on one another more in a collective, as opposed to the rank individuality lack of want affords us a whole lot of what still seperates us will graetly fall off ... All i know is that if God doesn't step in and correct us, we never will!

Also it always makes me laugh when i hear a son of Shem (Jew) refer to himself as "white" ... i don't think Arabs do this do they? ...

Technically, beyond skin color even, only sons of Japheth are considered "white/caucasian" ... Sons of Ham are very well aware of this, as most sons of Japheth are, for it's been the experience of many a black man to cease being threathened by them when they find out the white girl they thought he was with was in fact Jewish ... although her family would still like to make him disappear ... :-P

Amen bro Bartle i feel your heart, especially on the increasing of thankfulness ... Our Lord is checking me in even finer details, like my not having enough ACTIVE concern for the poor ... i was watching a program on what America eats, and it said that we spend $4.2 billion dollars a year on Bar-B-Que sauce alone ... In light of all the people thru-out the world that go to sleep hungry that made me feel really sad ... i got two bottles amongst a pantry full of other foodstuffs i have stashed ... God help us all to move back to a more "attitude of gratitude" toward His blessings, and toward our fellow man a freeing from our own selfish "mind set of get-get-get" to that of "give-give-give-in the love of Jesus"!

We've got so much to be thankful for and to be repentant of ... i know i do ... :-o

Bless you bro!

The following links (to my mind) are really pathetic and surrealistic in the listening ...

The first link entails the new Fed chairman Bernanke's cutting of the interest rate a half a point (in attempts to stave off a second Great Depression by yet another round of credit inflation) and his being taken apart by Ron Paul for the move that has further devalued the dollar, while the second link is of the old Fed chairman Greenspan on the book curcuit making even more $$$ while using his book as a platform to distance himself from this economic/mortgage mess America is now in when he was it's primary author (where was Ron Paul then i wonder?) ...

[b]1- House Financial Services Cmte., chaired by Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA), holds a hearing on "Minimizing/Mitigating Mortgage Foreclosures."[/b] Fed. Reserve Chair. Ben Bernanke is one of the witnesses. The Secs. of Treasury & HUD, the heads of Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, and others also testify.
rtsp://video.c-span.org/15days/e092007_mortgage.rm?mode=compact

[b]2-The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World By: Alan Greenspan[/b]
rtsp://video.c-span.org/archive/arc_btv/btv092207_greenspan.rm

So many big wig liars, but then the majority of American's love lies far more than the truth, then when the lies begin to unravel all of a sudden we begin to pop our heads out of our chronic self indulgence, whinning, "Why did you lie to us"? ...

In the article "THE FLIGHT INTO REAL VALUES by J. R. Nyquist" he said America's problems have stemmed from "self-deluded and ignorant men who have taken the helm, and have set intellectual integrity aside" ... i think it more so due to self-deluded and ignorant Christians who've been a part of the problem and not the solution, having set aside our spiritual integrity in duality of worship to
God and mammon (and all the other vices attached to it) ...

[b]Gal. 6[/b]
[7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
[8] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption ...

Well it's harvest time, and the reap of carnal excesses is overwhelming ...

It's obvious that pro-active repentance is not on our agenda, it will be re-active ... So when the time comes ...

[b]Rev. 2[/b]
[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;
[11] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the (saints) churches;

Informative (audio) on the continued devaluation of the "dollar" by The Fed's latest half point cut on interest rates ...

[b]Special Roundtable Discussion on the Dollar ...[/b]
http://www.netcastdaily.com/broadcast/fsn2007-0929-2.mp3