Question About the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs

Modern Arabs say they are the biological descendants of Abraham as do the Jews. After Sarah died Abraham married Keturah and had six sons with her. Gen. 25:1,2. He apparently had more because in v. 6 it talks about his concubines and their sons. Now the question: Why is the conflict so intense between the Arabs and the Jews only? What happened that this is the case and the others are not involved? (I do have a suggestion, but wish to hear you out). ginnyrose

Genesis 21:9-21 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.This is where the war started, and it continues to this day, Two great nations, Isaac, Israel and Ishmael the Arab nations. Then Ishmael became the Son of Abraham and Allah blessed him and he Ishmael was put on the altar and God intervened with a sacrifice of His own and Ishmael became the beginning of all Moslems by Abraham. Who was sacrificed Ishmael or Isaac, or both? In Christ: Phillip

Quote:This is where the war started, and it continues to this day, Two great nations, Isaac, Israel and Ishmael the Arab nations. Then Ishmael became the Son of Abraham and Allah blessed him and he Ishmael was put on the altar and God intervened with a sacrifice of His own and Ishmael became the beginning of all Moslems by Abraham. Who was sacrificed Ishmael or Isaac, or both? And this is what both groups claim...this is their argument. My question was that with all the sons Abraham hadm why do we hear only of two lines today? In the srcripture you quoted God promised Hagar he would make a great nation out of Ishmaels descendants. But whould that promise alone be adequate enough to explain what we sse today? Gen. 17: 18-20: 18: And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19: And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20: And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. Here we see Abraham specifically asking God to bless Ishmael and so God compiled, v. 20: 'And as for Ishmael, I have heard you..." I guess my question/point is would God have made Ishmael as great if Abraham had not asked for it? God had told him it would be through Sarah his seed would come. Sarah is often criticised because she took matters in to her own hands in order to produce an heir. While this is true and lamentable, was not Abraham also amiss in asking God to bless this son? So what is the point? it seems to me we too often in our ignorance ask God to bless something that is not in his perfect will which will then create a mess for others in the future. So then it would be in our best interest to be careful who we ask God to bless.ginnyrose

This is where every one goes astray........, or get their facts wrong and history......the Muslims faith did not start, or have beginnings with ishmael!........ it was mohomad spelling off--- IN 7 A.D.he lived in a cave alone.....he had bad fits and seizer ..........,and heard voices in his head........ which he claimed to be god speaking to him.............,which he started a movement in keeping a corrupt oral tradtation and finaly in 600A.D.......... it was put to a book! ......their god is not our God,........... even they say it is,it is a lie!........ many christain don't know the truth of this matter!

I just read a report that only 10% of arabs are muslim in faith, whats interesting is that they trace their prophets back to adam,after adam the spelling get wierd almost the same spelling,as the ungodly line of cain.when trying to match the true prophets of the old teatament.I will post back with the list and compare it to the old testament

From the Quran:Abraham invoked Almighty Allah thus: "O Our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley with no cultivation, by Your Sacred House (the Ka'ba at Mecca); in order, O our Lord, that they may offer prayers perfectly (Iqamat as salat) so fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and O Allah provide them with fruits so that they may give thanks. O our Lord! Certainly, You know what we conceal and what we reveal. Nothing on the earth or in the heavens is hidden from Allah." (Ch 14:37-38)Ibn Abbas narrated: "The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. she used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah (by dragging it). Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him to a place near the Kaba under a tree on the spot of ZamZam at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water so he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates and a small water skin containing some water and set out homeward. Ishmael's mother followed him saying: "O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything to enjoy?" she repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him : "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said: "Yes." She then said: "Then HE will not neglect us," and returned while Abraham proceeded onwards. On reaching the Thaniya where they could not see him, he faced the Kaba and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayers: "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Your Sacred House (Kaba at Mecca) in order, O our Lord that they may offer prayer perfectly. So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and O Allah provide them with fruits so that they may give thanks." (Ch 14:37)Ibn Abbas's narration continued; "Ishmael's mother went on suckling Ishmael and drinking from the water (she had) When the water in the water skin had been used up, she became thirsty and her child also became thirsty, She started looking at him (Ishmael) tossing in agony. She left him, for she could not endure looking at him, and found that the mountain of As-Safa was the nearest mountain to her on that land. she too on it and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. Then she descended for As Safa and when she reached the valley, she tucked up her robe and ran in the valley like a person in distress and trouble till she crossed the valley and reached the mountain of Al Marwa. There she stood and started looking expecting to see somebody, but she could not see anybody. she repeated that running between Safa And Marwa seven times."The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "This is the source of the tradition of the Sa'y (rituals of the hajj, pilgrimage) the going of people between them (As-Safa and Al-Marwa). When she reached Al Marwa (for the last time) she heard a voice and she asked herself to be quiet and listened attentively. She heard the voice again and said: "O whoever you maybe! You have made me hear your voice; have you got something to help me?" And behold! She saw an angel at the place of Zam zam, digging the earth with his heel (or his wing) till water flowed from that place. She started to make something like a basin around it, using her hand in this way, and started filling her water skin with water with her hands and the water was flowing out water she had scooped some of it."The Prophet (pbuh) added: "May Allah bestow mercy on Ishmael's mother! Had she let the zam-zam flow without trying to control it, or had she not scooped from that water to fill her water skin, Zam zam would have been a stream flowing on the surface of the earth."The Prophet (pbuh) continued: "Then she drank water and suckled her child. The angel said to her: "Don't be afraid of being neglected, for this is the House of Allah which will be built by this boy and his father, and Allah never neglects His people." The House (Kaba) at that time was on a high place resembling a hillock, and when torrents came, they flowed to its right and left."She lived in that way till some people from the tribe of Jurhum or a family from Jurhum passed by her and her child as they (the Jurhum people) were coming through the way of Kada. they landed in the lower part of Mecca where they saw a bird that had the habit of flying around water and not leaving it. they said: "this bird must be flying around water, though we know that there is no water in this valley." They sent one or two messengers who discovered the source of water and returned to inform them of the water. SO they all came towards the water. Ishmael's mother was sitting near the water. They asked her: "Do you allow us to stay with you?" She replied: "Yes, but you will have no right to possess the water." They agreed to that. Ishmael's mother was pleased with the whole situation, as she used to love to enjoy the company of the people, so they settled there, and later on they sent for their families who came and settled with them so that some families became permanent residents there. The child (Ishmael) grew up and learned Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them."The Prophet (pbuh) continued: "After Ishmael's mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael's marriage in order to see his family that he had left before but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael's wife about him, she replied: "He has gone in search of livelihood." Then he asked her about their way of living and their condition, and she replied, "We are living in misery; we are living in hardship and destitution,' complaining to him. He said: "When your husband returns, convey my salutations to him and tell him to change the threshold of the gate (of his house).'"When Ishmael came, he seemed to have felt something unusual, so he asked his wife: 'Has anyone visited you?' she replied, 'Yes, an old man of such and such description came and asked me about you and I informed him and he asked about our state of living and I told him that we were living in a hardship and poverty.' On that Ishmael said: 'Did he advise you anything?' She said: 'Yes he told me to convey his salutation to you and to tell you to change the threshold of your gate.' Ishmael said: 'It was my father and he has ordered me to divorce you. Go back to your family.' so, Ishmael divorced her and married another woman from among them (Jurhum)."Then Abraham stayed away from them for a period as long as Allah wished and called on them again but did not find Ishmael. So he came to Ishmael's wife and asked her about Ishmael. She said: 'he has gone in sof our livelihood.' Abraham asked her; 'how are you getting on?' asking her about their sustenance and living. she replied: 'we are prosperous and well off (we have everything in abundance).' then she thanked Allah. Abraham said: 'What kind of food do you eat?' she said: 'meat.' he said: 'what do you drink?' she said: 'water.' he said: 'O Allah! bless their meat and water.""The Prophet (pbuh) added: "At that time they did not have grain, and if they had grain he would have also invoked Allah to bless it. If somebody has only these two things as his sustenance, his health and disposition will be badly affected unless he lives in Mecca."In Christ: Phillip

since i do not believe that there is such a person as a Jew who is a decendant from Judah.I am not anti-semitic. say's loveslaveI believe they have every right to that land as God promissied! do you know that Jesus is a Jew, and from the tribe of jadah!.......where are you taking this thread? sound like all of you are fooled by mohammed!

bro Loveslave you wrote:Loveslave wrote:If the so called Jews would kindly leave that region called Palestine, peace in the middle east would be stablized. That land belongs to the Arabs and they have every right to it. The British put the so called Jews there because no one in the world wanted them. They were troublesome than, and they still are.Since I do not believe that there is such a person as a Jew who is a descendant from Judah today, I am not anti semitic.The so called nation of Israel is the problem and she does not belong in Palestine. If she want to take on the name Israel or Jew, she should obey the word of the LORD and continue to be dispersed among the rest of the world.Someone may argue that the Jew was to return to the holy land as part of fulfilled prophecy in 1948. That is a weak arguement as today there are more so called Jews living in America than in Israel. As one Arab put it, "We love the Jews, but we hate Israel". And there is a difference. Jews we have lived with for centuries, but to be a nation in this region, that we hate.first of all bro that land which the Palestinians are jumping up and down doesn't belong to them at all, it belongs to the Jews, always has and always will. This is in accordance to the Lord's covenant with Abraham in which He said He would give the land in which Abraham travelled from the nile to the euphrates to His descendants forever. Now the matter of the zionist methods of gaining back that whole land is another matter altogether. There will be no peace in that land until Christ Himself comes to give it (save for a 3 and a half yr stretch during the tribulation under antichrist's rule of the world)The British put them there because that always was their land and they had nowhere else to go and it was time they went home. The Lord determined that it was time for them to come home to their land and it was so. also i'm not sure the Lord said that every single Jew would return to israel in 1948, can anyone shed some light on that. the Lord did say that He would bring them back to their land and He did in 1948 so i don't know where your statement about the Jews having to remain where they are is obedience to God.i have to ask though, how can one be a Jew (aside from conversion) if one is not descended from Judah? :-? isn't that what a Jew is? also your statement that you don't believe there to be anyone descended from Judah seems an awefully creative way to justify what you know to be anti-semitism. are you tying to convince us or yourself you're not anti-semitic?

IRONMAN wrote:i have to ask though, how can one be a Jew (aside from conversion) if one is not descended from Judah? :-? isn't that what a Jew is? Romans 9:6 "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abrahams seed, but : "Through Isaac your descendants will be named" That is NOT THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH who are children of God, but children of the of the promise are regarded as seed."Gal. 3:7 "Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are the sons of Abraham.Gal. 3:9 " So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer."Gal. 3:16 "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is Christ."Gal. 3:22 "... that the PROMISE by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."Gal.3:29 " And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams seed, heirs according to the promise." So NO the Israel of God are not those born of Abraham, but those who have faith in Christ, (having the faith of Abraham). Anyone claiming to be a Jew in this present age and do not have faith in Christ are nothing more than sinners going to hell at best, and the "synagogue of Satan" at worst.(Rev. 2:9, 3:9, Jn. 8:44)Here's a question for you Ironman, if the people over there in palestine that you seem to believe are Gods chosen (even if they reject Christ?)where to recieve the land as an ETERNAL inheritance, how come for the past 1800 years they didn't live on the land, and for that matter why didn't Abraham live there except as an "alien in the land of promise"? If ETERNAL means ETERNAL then why was their residence there so sporatic?

bro JimbobHere's a question for you Ironman, if the people over there in palestine that you seem to believe are Gods chosen (even if they reject Christ?)where to recieve the land as an ETERNAL inheritance, how come for the past 1800 years they didn't live on the land, and for that matter why didn't Abraham live there except as an "alien in the land of promise"? If ETERNAL means ETERNAL then why was their residence there so sporatic?yes indeed the word says that not the fleshly descendants of abraham are jews but those who have faith. The Jews living are still entitled to that land because God promised it to abraham. God told Abraham that the land would not be his but belong to his descendants through Isaac, abraham believed it and received it. they Jews themselves reject Christ because God has dulled their ears and eyes so that the full number of gentiles may be grafted in. when that happens the gentile side of the Church will act in such a way as to provoke the Jews to jealousy so as to compell them to receive Christ. the Jews were kicked out of the land temporarily as they have been over the millenia that they have lived there so this is nothing new.

Speaking of dull ears and eyes,Hebrews 11:9&10, "By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same PROMISE; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God."ABRAHAM WAS NOT LOOKING FOR LAND! He was looking for CHRIST!How can you read Ephesians Chapter two and come away thinking God has two seperate agendas for the Church and fleshly Israel? God has made the two ONE NEW MAN. There is no "Gentile side" and "Jewish side" of Christ!I seriously don't see how you could possibly read Galatians and Ephesians and come up with this dispensational nonsense. What point is having a chunk of real estate and not having Christ? That is what you are saying if you think those are Gods "chosen people" over there right now in the middle east. Are they "chosen" right now apart from Christ? If they do not have Christ they are NOT chosen, period. If the Jews who returned to Palestine in 1948 died without Christ as their Lord, then they are eternally lost, that does not make them Gods "chosen people".Please reconsider this fantasy that J Darby and company has planted in your head. I sent you a ton of scripture that refutes your whole notion of a distinction between Israel and the Church via PM apparently you did not take the time to ponder the implications of it so I will include the verses once more for your consideration: Promise made to Israel - Hosea 1:10Fulfilled in the Church - Rom. 9: 25 & 26Promise made to Israel - Hosea 2:23Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 2:10, Rom. 9: 25 &26Promise made to Israel - Exodus 19:5-6Fulfilled in the Church -1 Pet. 2:9Promise made to Israel - Amos 9:11Fulfilled in the Church Acts 15:14-18Promise made to Israel - Eze. 37:27Fulfilled in the Church - 2 Cor. 6:16Promise made to Israel - Joel 2:28-32Fulfilled in the Church - Acts 2:16-21Promise made to Israel – Lev. 19:2Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 1:15-16Promise made to Israel - Jeremiah 31:31Fulfilled in the Church - Luke 22:20, Heb. 8: 6-13, 9:15“Land” Promise to Abraham - Gen 12:7Fulfilled in Christ - Gal. 3: 16, Heb. 11: 10, 13 &16And the Church – Gal. 3:29, 4:28“Literal” Land Promises fulfilled - Josh 21:43&44“Kingdom” taken from Jews - Matt. 21:43, 8:12And given to the Church - Luke 12:32, Jn. 10:16New Covenant- Jer. 31:31, Mt. 26:28, Lk. 22:20Old Covenant is obsolete – Heb. 8: 6 – 13Baptism replaced circumcision – Col. 2: 11&12We are the true circumcision – Ph. 3:3Christ is the Christians Passover - 1 Cor. 5:7&8The Church is the Bride of Christ - 2 Cor. 11:2, Rev 14:4There is only one New Man – Eph. 2:14 – 16 Not all descendants are Israel - Rom. 9: 6&8 Gal. 3: 29Unbelieving Jews are “of the devil” - Jn. 8:44, Rev. 2:9, 3:9The Church is the “New Jerusalem” – Rev. 21: 2“From above”- Gal. 4: 26

bro Jimbobjimbob wrote:Speaking of dull ears and eyes,Hebrews 11:9&10, "By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same PROMISE; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God."ABRAHAM WAS NOT LOOKING FOR LAND! He was looking for CHRIST!How can you read Ephesians Chapter two and come away thinking God has two seperate agendas for the Church and fleshly Israel? God has made the two ONE NEW MAN. There is no "Gentile side" and "Jewish side" of Christ!I seriously don't see how you could possibly read Galatians and Ephesians and come up with this dispensational nonsense. What point is having a chunk of real estate and not having Christ? That is what you are saying if you think those are Gods "chosen people" over there right now in the middle east. Are they "chosen" right now apart from Christ? If they do not have Christ they are NOT chosen, period. If the Jews who returned to Palestine in 1948 died without Christ as their Lord, then they are eternally lost, that does not make them Gods "chosen people".Please reconsider this fantasy that J Darby and company has planted in your head. I sent you a ton of scripture that refutes your whole notion of a distinction between Israel and the Church via PM apparently you did not take the time to ponder the implications of it so I will include the verses once more for your consideration: Promise made to Israel - Hosea 1:10Fulfilled in the Church - Rom. 9: 25 & 26Promise made to Israel - Hosea 2:23Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 2:10, Rom. 9: 25 &26Promise made to Israel - Exodus 19:5-6Fulfilled in the Church -1 Pet. 2:9Promise made to Israel - Amos 9:11Fulfilled in the Church Acts 15:14-18Promise made to Israel - Eze. 37:27Fulfilled in the Church - 2 Cor. 6:16Promise made to Israel - Joel 2:28-32Fulfilled in the Church - Acts 2:16-21Promise made to Israel – Lev. 19:2Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 1:15-16Promise made to Israel - Jeremiah 31:31Fulfilled in the Church - Luke 22:20, Heb. 8: 6-13, 9:15“Land” Promise to Abraham - Gen 12:7Fulfilled in Christ - Gal. 3: 16, Heb. 11: 10, 13 &16And the Church – Gal. 3:29, 4:28“Literal” Land Promises fulfilled - Josh 21:43&44“Kingdom” taken from Jews - Matt. 21:43, 8:12And given to the Church - Luke 12:32, Jn. 10:16New Covenant- Jer. 31:31, Mt. 26:28, Lk. 22:20Old Covenant is obsolete – Heb. 8: 6 – 13Baptism replaced circumcision – Col. 2: 11&12We are the true circumcision – Ph. 3:3Christ is the Christians Passover - 1 Cor. 5:7&8The Church is the Bride of Christ - 2 Cor. 11:2, Rev 14:4There is only one New Man – Eph. 2:14 – 16 Not all descendants are Israel - Rom. 9: 6&8 Gal. 3: 29Unbelieving Jews are “of the devil” - Jn. 8:44, Rev. 2:9, 3:9The Church is the “New Jerusalem” – Rev. 21: 2“From above”- Gal. 4: 26as the Lord leads i will review what you wrote in the p.m. like i told you in my replyi wanted to say something about the spirit in which you wrote to me which disturbed me and disturbs me still. may the Lord expose and rebuke whichever one of us is wrong and correct us to His glory. at this point in time i am convinced that there is purpose in some of the Jews returning to the homeland. noone can argue with that. i guess it remains to be seen exactly.see zechariah chapt 87 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west F20 country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.it seems to me that the Lord still has some agenda for the Jews and somehow it involves us. we've yet to provoke them to jealousy so as to cause them to repent and be grafted back into the tree. now i know that every jew who died without Christ after He came is going to be in hell so i'm well aware of that. and this from Zechariah 129 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei F41 apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.this one whom they have pierced and are mourning for is Christ. we know already that Christ was pierced for our sins but the Jews have yet to come to realize that en masse and this is what will happen when they do so still, there is something else going on here which is for them specifically because they as yet don't know the Lord to be the Messiah as we do. and this is zechariah 137 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.2/3 of the Jews will be killed and the remaing 1/3 will then be tried by fire. we will also be tried by fire but i believe that in the time in which the 1/3 are tried by fire we the gentile church will come to their aid. and then this in Zechariah 141 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; F44 for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.this is also mentioned in the revelation. the gentile nations will rise up against Jerusalem and Israel. Now note that Zechariah is speaking to the Jews only as God led Him to. now there will be gentiles living in Jerusalem at the time i'm sure (as there are now) but the nations will be coming up against the Jews specifically and no doubt the gentile church will be greatly affected too in these days. more from Zech 14 with details on the attack on Jerusalem by the gentile nations, by the way these are the gentiles who don't know God and are led by the enemy to do this. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former F45 sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 10 All the land shall be turned F46 as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah F47 also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment F48 of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells F49 of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.this to me is the 1000 yr reign of Christ in which the enemy is bound in the abyss and will not be able to tempt anyone. this is perfect peace and yet somehow it seems as though some nations will be disobedient (not sure how or why) as evidenced by the threats of no rain falling in the event that people don't come to keep the feast of the tabernacles. it seems to me brethren that there is a purpose being served in this distinction between Jew and gentile on this side even though we are 1 tree. bro Jimbob let me use the example of predestination and free will. the 2 are 1 really in serving the purposes of God, they seems mutually exclusive on this side but in wrestling with that issue the Lord used you and some others to let me know what the deal was. just like it seems mutually exclusive that there be a distinction between Jew and Gentile and the promises to both peoples and the fact that we are 1 people, 1 tree in Christ, this serves a purpose for God's plan on this side. i'm unsure why the Lord has it so exactly but i know that it is for His own good pleasure. The Lord is sovereign and it seems to me that He has made this distinction because it pleases Him to exercise His sovereignty.

Ironman,I wish you would follow Peter,Paul and the New Covenant in the proper method of interpreting Old Covenant prophecy.I gave you numerous examples of promises made to a specific people Israel, and how Peter and Paul reinterpreted and reapplied them to Christ and the Church. Follow Peter and Paul and reject Darby.

bro Jimbobwho's Darby? :-?

Oy Vey ?

oh i see, may have heard the name before but i didn't know anything of his theology.

The difference I see here between Ironman's understanding of the OT prophecies and jimbob is: are these OT scriptures Ironman posted to be taken literally or are they figurative? The method of interpretation is what causes so many disagreements concerning prophecy...Perhaps it might be best to allow the context to determine how a portion is to be understood...consider phrases like "it shall be", "like as", "will be".....to determine the meaning. And forget about other writers, they do more to confuse one then anything else.ginnyrose

sis ginnyrosewell i'm a literalist, i'm not the brightest colour in the box so that's where i begin from and should the Lord show me different then so be it. Thus far He's given me no reason to believe that any of those prophecies in Zechariah have come true yet.

Here is the issue of this thread, Jews and arabs,who was given the promise land from God.well this is comparing apples and oranges,frist lets get one thing in order here! do they both worship the same God??? No, then here is the problem the fact lie's with the misunderstanding,of the poster! queastion! which God? did promise the land to? was it the God of moses,issac jacob? or the god of musa,ishaq,or yaqub? answer this frist who is the real God speaking the promise! to what people, because you are cunfussing the real God of the torah,with the false of the koran!

the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. the 1 true God.

Healingwaters wrote:Ironman said:

well i'm a literalistIronman, don't you dare get spiritual with this verse than, if you say you are a literalist than be one, don't jump back and forth and say that this verse is spiritual.Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.As a literalist, you must obey that verse. As I said, don't get spiritual because your not a spiritualist, you said that you are a literalist, so stick to your guns.

bro Karlin my post i said that i was a literalist concering the prophecies of Zechariah which i'd brought up in this discussion. i didn't bring up the scripture that you brought up though, that's a whole other story bro.

sis annieand this is just what i was getting at. The Lord spoke these things to Zechariah and they have yet to come to pass. this says to me there is still a separate agenda for the Jews which is intimately inteertwined with God's agenda for the gentiles. the full number of gentiles has not yet come into the fold. when that happens we will then be able to provoke the Jew to jealousy unto repentance and salvation. We the Church have not replaced the Jews as is commonly thought and taught. and i think that that spirit is what brings this boasting against the natural branches (which is another distinction between Jew and gentile on this side for a time) that's what the word says and i guess i'm foolish enough to believe it as is.

bro Karlthe passage you mentioned is a refence actually to the fulfillment of an O.T. prophecy. check out matthew henry's commentary on this sectionHere is, I. A general account of Christ’s preaching in Galilee. John gives an account of his preaching in Judea, before this (ch. 2 and 3), which the other evangelists had omitted, who chiefly relate what occurred in Galilee, because that was least known at Jerusalem. Observe, 1. When Jesus began to preach in Galilee; After that John was put in prison. When he had finished his testimony, then Jesus began his. Note, The silencing of Christ’s ministers shall not be the suppressing of Christ’s gospel; if some be laid aside, others shall be raised up, perhaps mightier than they, to carry on the same work. 2. What he preached; The gospel of the kingdom of God. Christ came to set up the kingdom of God among men, that they might be brought into subjection to it, and might obtain salvation in it; and he set it up by the preaching of his gospel, and a power going along with it. Observe, (1.) The great truths Christ preached; The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. This refers to the Old Testament, in which the kingdom of the Messiah was promised, and the time fixed for the introducing of it. They were not so well versed in those prophecies, nor did they so well observe the signs of the times, as to understand it themselves, and therefore Christ gives them notice of it; "The time prefixed is now at hand; glorious discoveries of divine light, life, and love, are now to be made; a new dispensation far more spiritual and heavenly than that which you have hitherto been under, is now to commence.’’ Note, God keeps time; when the time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand, for the vision is for an appointed time, which will be punctually observed, though it tarry past our time. (2.) The great duties inferred from thence. Christ gave them to understand the times, that they might know what Israel ought to do; they fondly expected the Messiah to appear in external pomp and power, not only to free the Jewish nation from the Roman yoke, but to make it have dominion over all its neighbours, and therefore thought, when that kingdom of God was at hand, they must prepare for war, and for victory and preferment, and great things in the world; but Christ tells them, in the prospect of that kingdom approaching, they must repent, and believe the gospel. They had broken the moral law, and could not be saved by a covenant of innocency, for both Jew and Gentile are concluded under guilt. They must therefore take the benefit of a covenant of grace, must submit to a remedial law, and this is it— repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. They had not made use of the prescribed preservatives, and therefore must have recourse to the prescribed restoratives. By repentance we must lament and forsake our sins, and by faith we must receive the forgiveness of them. By repentance we must give glory to our Creator whom we have offended; by faith we must give glory to our Redeemer who came to save us from our sins. Both these must go together; we must not think either that reforming our lives will save us without trusting in the righteousness and grace of Christ, or that trusting in Christ will save us without the reformation of our hearts and lives. Christ hath joined these two together, and let no man think to put them asunder. They will mutually assist and befriend each other. Repentance will quicken faith, and faith will make repentance evangelical; and the sincerity of both together must be evidenced by a diligent conscientious obedience to all God’s commandments. Thus the preaching of the gospel began, and thus it continues; still the call is, Repent, and believe, and live a life of repentance and a life of faith. II. Christ appearing as a teacher, here is next his calling of disciples, v. 16–20. Observe, 1. Christ will have followers. If he set up a school, he will have scholars; if he set up his standard, he will have soldiers; if he preach, he will have hearers. He has taken an effectual course to secure this; for all that the Father has given him, shall, without fail, come to him. 2. The instruments Christ chose to employ in setting up his kingdom, were the weak and foolish things of the world; not called from the great sanhedrim, or the schools of the rabbin, but picked up from among the tarpaulins by the sea-side, that the excellency of the power might appear to be wholly of God, and not at all of them. 3. Though Christ needs not the help of man, yet he is pleased to make use of it in setting up his kingdom, that he might deal with us not in a formidable but in a familiar way, and that in his kingdom the nobles and governors may be of ourselves, Jer. 31:21. 4. Christ puts honour upon those who, though mean in the world, are diligent in their business, and loving to one another; so those were, whom Christ called. He found them employed, and employed together. Industry and unity are good and pleasant, and there the Lord Jesus commands the blessing, even this blessing, Follow me. 5. The business of ministers is to fish for souls, and win them to Christ. The children of men, in their natural condition, are lost, wander endlessly in the great ocean of this world, and are carried down the stream of its course and way; they are unprofitable. Like leviathan in the waters, they play therein; and often, like the fishes of the sea, they devour one another. Ministers, in preaching the gospel, cast the net into the waters, Mt. 13:47. Some are enclosed and brought to shore, but far the greater number escape. Fishermen take great pains, and expose themselves to great perils, so do ministers; and they have need of wisdom. If many a draught brings home nothing, yet they must go on. 6. Those whom Christ called, must leave all, to follow him; and by his grace he inclines them to do so. Not that we must needs go out of the world immediately, but we must sit loose to the world, and forsake every thing that is inconsistent with our duty to Christ, and that cannot be kept without prejudice to our souls. Mark takes notice of James and John, that they left not only their father (which we had in Matthew), but the hired servants, whom perhaps they loved as their own brethren, being their fellow-labourers and pleasant comrades; not only relations, but companions, must be left for Christ, and old acquaintance. Perhaps it is an intimation of their care for their father; they did not leave him without assistance, they left the hired servants with him. Grotius thinks it is mentioned as an evidence that their calling was gainful to them, for it was worth while to keep servants in pay, to help them in it, and their hands would be much missed, and yet they left it. III. Here is a particular account of his preaching in Capernaum, one of the cities of Galilee; for though John Baptist chose to preach in a wilderness, and did well, and did good, yet it doth not therefore follow, that Jesus must do so too; the inclinations and opportunities of ministers may very much differ, and yet both be in the way of their duty, and both useful. Observe, 1. When Christ came into Capernaum, he straightway applied himself to his work there, and took the first opportunity of preaching the gospel. Those will think themselves concerned not to lose time, who consider what a deal of work they have to do, and what a little time to do it in. 2. Christ religiously observed the sabbath day, though not by tying himself up to the tradition of the elders, in all the niceties of the sabbath-rest, yet (which was far better) by applying himself to, and abounding in, the sabbath-work, in order to which the sabbath-rest was instituted. 3. Sabbaths are to be sanctified in religious assemblies, if we have opportunity; it is a holy day, and must be honoured with a holy convocation; this was the good old way, Acts 13:27; 15:21. On the sabbath-day, pois sabbasin — on the sabbath-days; every sabbath-day, as duly as it returned, he went into the synagogue. 4. In religious assemblies on sabbath-days, the gospel is to be preached, and those to be taught, who are willing to learn the truth as it is in Jesus. 5. Christ was a non-such preacher; he did not preach as the scribes, who expounded the law of Moses by rote, as a school-boy says his lesson, but were neither acquainted with it (Paul himself, when a Pharisee, was ignorant of the law), nor affected with it; it came not from the heart, and therefore came not with authority. But Christ taught as one that had authority, as one that knew the mind of God, and was commissioned to declare it. 6. There is much in the doctrine of Christ, that is astonishing; the more we hear it, the more cause we shall see to admire it. it seems to me that the time had indeed come for the kingdom of God to be at hand. which says to me that the time for revelation of the Kingdom of God had come so men had to repent. it seems to me that the Kingdom is indeed still at hand because for the Kingdom to be established, Jesus must return and Himself establish it.but then the word also says that it is within us. we are seated in high places with Him already however but you will find that even after Jesus speaks these words in the gospels, it is still said in Paul's letters afterward that the day of Christ is at hand and that He is at hand. another thing to consider is that for Christ and indeed for anyone moving in the Spirit, there is no concept of time in the Spirit. everything, past present and future is before God as 1. it's hard to explain unless one has experienced it. i'm not sure this will help but a few days ago the a friend of mine was in some trouble and he called me asking i pray for him. i agreed and immediately the Lord showed me in a vision his plight. at first i thought i was losing it (i've seen vision before though) because i hadn't made time to pray for him to ask the Lord what the deal was so i brushed it off. the vision kept on coming back then i asked the Lord "ok, i've not prayed or made time to do so for this brother, what is going on?" the Lord's response was that in the Spirit there is no concept of time, it's all before you even though in the flesh i'd not come to that point yet. does that make any sense? if not don't worry about it.

It seem to me this subject has been threadjacked. I thought the original post was the subject of why the conflict between the Arab and the Jew.In the Genesis, God promised Israel to the descendants of Abraham, through Isaac. Ishmael was promised to be a great nation, but I don't recall any land promised to them at all (and I just read the passage.) The Arabs who are Muslims only make claim to the land through the false prophet, Mohammad. We know that the Bible is the God's revelation to us, the Quran is not because it contradicts, the Bible. It is just another trick of the enemy's to mislead people.As for whether or not, the descendants of Abraham are still God's Chosen people. Can someone tell me the verse where God told Abraham, I will cut off your descendants after so long because they have rejected me??What do you guys do with this Scripture in Romans 11:1-6?I say then, has God cast away His own people? Certainly not! For I am also an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast off His people whom he foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying Lord they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left and they seek mylife? But what does the divine response say to him, I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even sothen, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.Is he talking about the Jews that have accepted Jesus as Savior?Is this what you are saying Healingwaters?"Each and every one of us who is a christian is a remnant of Israel,including the Jews that believe Jesus was the Messiah, not Israel literally. That is why Jesus said in Matt. 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate.Israel gave up their specialness when they crucified Jesus."This is a quote from my cousin on how her church views Israel.

bro Karlif you look at that verse carefull in context it is saying that there is no difference between Jew or greek etc for the same Lord that is over all is rich to whoever calls upon Him. this refers to how the Lord treats us, He will not reject anyone based on whether they are Jew or greek but will bless and save whoever calls on His name. now the matter of the destiny of the Jew and Gentile and how the 2 peoples have different roles in the Lord's plan is a separate matter altogether. you can't use that verse to say that we're all the same and the Lord has the exact same plan for us all coz it's not true. The Lord is working with you and in you and through you in a way different manner than He is with me and the Lord is dealing with the Jews and gentiles in different ways which are separate and yet one somehow in His infinite wisdom as a display of His manifold wisdom to the powers of the air. tell then Karl, when in Zechariah the Lord says that He will pour out grace on His people and they will look upon Him who they pierced, is the Lord not talking about the JEws specifically? sure the Romans did nail Christ to the cross but at the bidding of the Jewish council. We gentiles have received Christ so why would the Lord then be saying that to us? those prophecies are yet to be fulfilled and if you think the Lord was just talking into the air to fill a book then i don't know what to tell you. The word of the Lord will not come back void but it will acomplish whatever the Lord purposed it to.brethren let us not boast against the natural branches lest we be cut off...we are wild branches having been grafted in by God's grace and mercy. let us not test the Lord in this matter.

sis MSeamanwell i guess to some extent the subject has been threadjacked :-P The Lord said of Ishamel that He would be a wild man who would be against everyone. now the bitterness between the Jew and palestinians is that the palestinians are descended from the phillistines and that beef goes waaaaaayyyy back. In truth there will no peace in that region until Christ comes to give it, well save for the 3.5 yr peace during antichrist's reign. now onto the scripture you mentioned, romans 11. This is what i feel the Lord leading me to get at that the Jew still has a unique place or role in God's plan which the gentile can't fill so there is a separate dealing with the Jew and the gentile even though in truth the 2 are 1. there are yet some old testament prophecies (see Zechariah 12-140 which have yet to be fulfilled and pertain specifically to the Jew. Israel is still the bride of the Father and has not lost her place, the church is the bride of Christ. Now there is a remnant in Israel, a 1/3 part of her according to Zechariah which shall not be cut off but shall be tried in the fire. i realize now what was bothering me about some of the responses from bro Jimbob concerning this. it is this spirit of boasting against the natural branches which we are warned not to do by Paul in romans. we are gtafted in so if we boast against the natural branches concerning our salvation and their blindness to the messiah, who's to say that the Lord will not blind us and cut us off. Let us not test the Lord on this and indeed any other matter.

I tend to hold the same view as you do. :-) If God can break His Covenant with Abraham, then He can break the New Covenant as well. I don't believe that to be true of God. He wouldn't be any better than the false idols other people worship.It is interesting to see the different views around here.

Ironman,let’s go over this one more time. The Apostles are our final authority on how to interpret Old Covenant prophecies, we need to look to them to discover the meaning behind prophecies of the Old Covenant. I submit to you all that the Apostles found fulfillment of the promises made to Israel in Christ and His Church. Lets compare some scriptures.Promise made to Israel - Hosea 1:101:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, `Ye are' the sons of the living God.Fulfilled in the Church - Rom. 9: 25 & 269:24 `even' us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.9:26 And it shall be, `that' in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.Promise made to Israel - Hosea 2:232:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them that were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, `Thou art' my God.Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 2:10, Rom. 9: 25 &262:9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for `God's' own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:2:10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.Promise made to Israel - Exodus 19:5-619:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:19:6 and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.Fulfilled in the Church -1 Pet. 2:92:9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for `God's' own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous lightPromise made to Israel - Amos 9:119:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;Fulfilled in the Church Acts 15:14-1815:14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,15:16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:15:17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,15:18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old.NO REFERENCE TO GENTILES AT ALL IN AMOS 9:11! ONLY A REFERENCE TO REBUILDING DAVIDS TABERNACLE! HOW WAS DAVIDS TABERNACLE REBUILT? BY THE FACT THAT GOD HAD TAKEN THE GENTILES AS A PEOPLE FOR HIS OWN NAME, NO LITERAL TEMPLE FULFILLS THIS PROPHECY! THIS IS THE APOSTLE JAMES WHO IS “SPIRITUALIZING” THIS OLD COVENANT PROPHECY!Promise made to Israel - Eze. 37:27 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.37:28 And the nations shall know that I am Jehovah that sanctifieth Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.Fulfilled in the Church - 2 Cor. 6:166:16 And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.WE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD!!!!! THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE SOME EARTHLY REBUILDING OF SOME STONE TEMPLE!!!! IT’S NOT ABOUT THE NATION OF ISRAEL, THE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST ARE THE ISRAEL OF GOD!THIS IS PAULS INTERPRETATION OF PROPHECY!Promise made to Israel - Joel 2:28-322:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Jehovah your God, and there is none else; and my people shall never be put to shame.2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:2:29 and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.2:30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh.2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.Fulfilled in the Church - Acts 2:16-212:16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:2:18 Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.2:19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable `day'.2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.AND YOU WILL SAY “ BUT THE MOON HASN’T BEEN TURNED TO BLOOD! THAT PROPHECY HAS YET TO BE FULFILLED!” PETER SAID THE MOON TURNED INTO BLOOD, ARGUE WITH HIM ABOUT THE WAY HE “SPRIRTUALIZES” SCRIPTURE. BUT YOU SAY “THE SPIRIT HASN’T BEEN POURED OUT ON “ALL FLESH”. PETER SAID IS WAS, ARGUE WITH HIM FOR ‘SPIRITUALIZING’ SCRIPTURE.Promise made to Israel – Lev. 19:219:1 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy; for I Jehovah your God am holy.Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 1:15-161:15 but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living;1:16 because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holyPromise made to Israel - Jeremiah 31:31-3331:31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah.31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:Fulfilled in the Church - Luke 22:20, Heb. 8: 6-13, 9:1522:20 And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, `even' that which is poured out for you.8:6 But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises.8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:8:11 And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them.8:12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And their sins will I remember no more.8:13 In that he saith, A new `covenant' he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.IT’S REALLY A SHAME AND AN INSULT TO THE BLOOD OF CHRIST TO THINK OF THE ETERNAL INHERITANCE THAT HE PAYED FOR ON HIS CROSS WOULD BE PURPOSEFULLY CONFUSED WITH SOME SUPPOSED EARHTLY KINGDOM. AGAIN LET ME POINT OUT THE FACT THAT THE WRTITER OF THE BOOK OF HEBREWS EQUATES THE OLD COVENANT GIVEN TO ISRAEL WITH THE NEW COVENANT GIVEN TO BELIEVERS IN CHRIST. “Land” Promise to Abraham - Gen 12:712:7 And Jehovah appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto Jehovah, who appeared unto him.Fulfilled in Christ - Gal. 3: 16, Heb. 11: 10, 13 &163:16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.11:9 By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a `land' not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:11:10 for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God.11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.11:14 For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own.11:15 And if indeed they had been mindful of that `country' from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.11:16 But now they desire a better `country', that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city.THE “LAND” PROMISE MADE TO ABRAHAM WAS NOTHING MORE OR LESS THAN FAITH IN CHRIST! HE IS THE “BETTER COUNTRY” THAT ABRAHAM DESIRED. NO MORE LOOKING FOR EARTHLY KINGDOMS! THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE AND HISTORIC ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY HAVE ALWAYS TAUGHT. The promise to Abraham fulfilled in the Church – Gal. 3:29, 4:283:26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.3:28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one `man' in Christ Jesus.3:29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.JUST NO WIGGLE ROOM HERE FOR TWO SEPARATE AGENDAS TO GODS PLAN! THIS IS THE APOSTLE PAUL SPEAKING.Promise of David’s throne 2 Sam. 7:12-167:12 When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.7:13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men;7:15 but my lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.7:16 And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.Fulfilled in the Resurrection of Christ Acts 2:29-352:29 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day.2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set `one' upon his throne;2:31 he foreseeing `this' spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.2:32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.2:34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,2:35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.THE THRONE OF DAVID IS FULFILLED THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST AND THE OUT POURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. THAT’S HOW PETER SAW IT, NO EARTHLY THRONE HERE, PERIOD.NOT ONE OF THE ABOVE PROPHECIES GAVE ANY CLUE THAT THEY WERE TO BE FULFILLED SPIRITUALLY THROUGH THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST REIGNING FROM HEAVEN, BUT THAT IS HOW THE APOSTLES TOOK THESE SO-CALLED “LITERAL” PROPHECIES GIVEN TO A FLESHLY PEOPLE AND RE-INTERPRETED THEM TO FIT THE AWESOME REALIZATION OF WHAT GOD HAD REALLY HAD IN STORE FOR US THROUGH CHRIST JESUS! THAT IS THE “MYSTERY” OF THE GOSPEL!I WANT TO POINT OUT A FEW MORE SCRIPTURES AND THEN I’LL END:“Literal” Land Promises fulfilled - Josh 21:43&4421:43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.21:44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.21:45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.“Kingdom” taken from Jews - Matt. 21:43, 8:1221:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.8:10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.8:11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.And given to the Church - Luke 12:32, Jn. 10:1612:31 Yet seek ye his kingdom, and these things shall be added unto you.12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,10:15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.Baptism replaced circumcision – Col. 2: 11&122:8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,2:10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:2:11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.We are the true circumcision – Ph. 3:33:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:3:3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the fleshChrist is the Christians Passover - 1 Cor. 5:7&85:7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, `even' Christ:5:8 wherefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.The Church is the Bride of Christ - 2 Cor. 11:2, 11:2 For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you `as' a pure virgin to Christ.11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.There is only one New Man – Eph. 2:14 – 162:14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,2:15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, `even' the law of commandments `contained' in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, `so' making peace;2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: There you have it then, this is the Apostles teaching concerning how to interpret Old Covenant prophecy. This is the historic Christian faith. There is no future earthly kingdom for Israel in the New Covenant Gospels or Epistles. The Promises made to that fleshly people in Palestine had there complete fulfillment in Christ and His Body the Church. To believe otherwise is to believe a false doctrine, another gospel, “worldly fables and Jewish myths” (Ti. 1:10-14, 1 Tim. 1 3&4, 4:7, 2Tim. 4:3&4)The Jewish nation made the error of assuming Christ came to establish an earthly kingdom for them, which He emphatically did not! They rejected Christ because of this. Do not slander the Cross of Christ by trying once again to offer an earthly kingdom to the Jews, for Christ’s Kingdom began 2,000 years ago in the Spirit and it will have no end.

bro Jimbobwhat of the prophecies given in Zechariah? whuch apostle applied those to the church? There is no slave of free, Jew nor greek in God because the Lord will tend to us all without regard to race or heritage. however He deals with us all differently because we are different and He made it so to His own glory. tell me then, what of what Paul says in Romans about the grafting in of the natural branches of the tree and how we gentiles should not boast against the natural branches because if God cut them off and tossed them into the fire, you best believe that He can do the same with us. This is the spirit which is coming across in your posts that disturbs me so. The Lord is not done with the Jews yet, they haven't been grafted back into the tree because the number of gentiles is not yet complete. this admonishion by Paul is proof positive that there is still a distinction between Jew and gentile which serves the purposes of God for now even though we are all one tree.i agree with you in that much of the prophecies of the o.t. have indeed been fulfilled, you won't get any arguement with me on that. but there are some that yet remain unfulfilled such as the ones in Zechariah. so i ask again, which apostle spoke of these prophecies as being fulfilled? for example has the 2/3 of the nation of Israel yet been cut off and the remaining third refined and brought to the realization that Christ indeed is the messiah? have they yet mourned Him whom they pierced as they would an only son?

Bro Karlthe number of people who converted from judaism to Christianity certainly didn't add up to a third of all Jews. i'm not disputing the fact that the Jews have done some abominable things in the face of the Father, of course they have. what i am disputing is this notion that somehow we the church have become the new Jews and we're not because God isn't done dealing with them yet.now you brought up the scripture in ezekiel expertly showing Israel's unfaithfulness to God but tell me of a prophet of the Lord sent to proclaim destruction who didn't also proclaim restoration. we as the church for sure have done no better with Christ than Israel did with God in our conduct and our own whoring after strange gods , who then will replace us if we have replaced Israel?you brought up Romans 7 as it pertained to the adulterous woman and somehow linked it with Israel and God. if because of Israel's conduct she has indeed forsaken her place in God then we as the church have most certainly done the same in Christ because of our own transgressions. when God looks at creation it is not as we see it, in terms of past present and future, it is all before God. Christ told the pharisees that before Abraham, I am, why did He not say I was? it is because He is. The scripture which says that a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day to God expresses what i was trying to say perfectly. if a day and a thousand years are the same thing to God, evidenly where He dwells there is no concept of time as we know it. any reference to time is for our own benefit because we are bound by time on this side but God is not. on this matter brethren of the Lord and His dealings with Israel i disagree with you both because i am convinced the Lord is not done with Israel and the Jew yet. Paul's admonition to us in Romans when he talks about how the natural branches of the olive tree were cut off for our sake so we could be grafted in and the fact that he makes mention of the need for the re-grafting of the natural branches proves this point to me. how else does that portion of scripture make sense? 2 different types of branches, the natual and the wild (Jew and gentile), the natural (Jew) being cut off so we (gentile) could be grafted into the tree, then later on the natural branches (Jews again) will later be grafted back in time. and then why would paul tell us not to boast against the natural branches if we are all the same? why would he warn us of this and tell us that if the Lord cut off the natural branches do you think that He would spare the wild one?

bro Karli have also put forth scripture which you have not addressed yourself nor has brother jimbob. in addition if we are now the new jews, who will replace us because we too have gone off whoring after other gods.bro Karl i did consider the scriptures you put forth now will you consider the ones i did and also answer the question above and whichever other ones from the last post you're led to answer. why did paul say that we as the wild branches shouldn't boast against the natural ones if we were all the same?if we have replaced israel, then who will replace us because we too have done the same thing if not more against God.paul spoke of the grafting in of the natural branches after the number of gentiles was complete, if we are the same or have replaced israel, then why would paul say that?it seems to me you have bought into this replacement theology thing and it's dead wrong. The Lord is not done with Israel and He is most certainly not done with us. bro Lord knows i'm not the brightest cat on the block ok, so i take His word at face value lest He ministers to me otherwise and thus far, He's saying to me, He's not done with Israel nor is He done with us. if you don't like Jews that's between you and God, i'm not concerned about that nor am i accusing you of it. however to suggest that the church has replaced israel is just plain wrong and the Lord will prove it Himself. Lord your will be done.AMEN.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Who is THE BRANCH? Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:Of Course THE BRANCH is Christ. God's Branch is Christ and Christ is the Vine, In which there is no grafting, but we are the branches of the New Creature of which Christ is the first.Colossians 1:12-18 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.We are not the Israel of God we are not grafted into Israel and we will never be Israel. We are the Body of Christ His Church.Galatians 6:15-17 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.This does not include us as the Israel of God, it separates us from The Israel of God and even to them peace, mercy if they walk according to this rule: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." That new creature is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:In Christ: Phillip

Ironman you simply will not hear that Israel and the Church are one.I could go on and on but I will be waisting my time with you,your ears are deaf and your eyes do not see. You have been given irrefutable scriptural evidence and still you refuse to see. Enjoy your delusions.

bro JimbobIronman you simply will not hear that Israel and the Church are one.I could go on and on but I will be waisting my time with you,your ears are deaf and your eyes do not see. You have been given irrefutable scriptural evidence and still you refuse to see. Enjoy your delusions. that is bot true, i said that we are all one people yet the Lord has made this distinction between Jew and gentile for His own purposes because He isn't done with either people yet. of course we are one tree, we are the wild branches who are grafted into the natural tree so we become one with that tree. either i made my position unclear and if i did i apologize and ask your forgiveness or you misread what i was saying in which case i forgive you. but i agree we are one people that's not the point i was arguing, i was arguing that the Lord was not yet done with Israel and there is a distinction between Jew and gentile on this side (though we are one people) which serves a purpose in the Lord's demonstration to the principalities and powers of His manifold wisdom. for the last part of your response to me, the Lord rebuke you.

bro KarlHealingwaters wrote:Ironman, since you won this debate, I would like to set the record straight. I have no problem with the Jew, what I have a problem with is that there is no such a people today that are Jewish according to the bible. They are a race of people that have taken on the name of Jew. Since your incline to Matthew Henrys commentaries, than you probably wouldn't mind reading a little history on the Jews in Europe, starting with their own Encyclopedia.The question that arises is, how can a Chinese be a Jew? There are Chinese Jews today. Than there are black Jews. I know of a friend of mine who was Anglican and had no jewish roots. She married a Jewish man in our city and in order for him to marry her, she had to become Jewish. She went thru the purifications, said all the right words and whoola, she is now a Jew (outwardly).Oh by the way, I am not avoiding your last questions, I simply stopped trying. Perhaps down the road will explore those avenues together.*sigh*ok that's good to hear, like i said bro, i wasn't accusing you of hating Jews. as far as Jews directly descended from Abraham isaac and Jacob, there is yet a remnant even now after so many years coz God isn't done with them. there are those who have become Jews by adopting the faith but that has been happenning since the Jews left egypt and the Lord said to teach them the ways of the Jews did He not? i mean even on pentecost there were Jews, some converts some descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who were in Jerusalem for Pentecost. they were considered Jews like any other. bro Karl i told you i have no qualms with the scripures you put forth about the church and the Jew being one people because i believe it to be so as wholeheartedly as you. however to say that we replaced them is wrong. if we have bro Karl, replaced the Jews from their place in God, then who will replace us the church because we have blood on our skirts too as much as they did. we didn't remain that chaste virgin but went off whoring too. and then why did Paul say we the wild branches (though being of one tree and on this i agree with you wholly my apologies of i didn't make it clear but if you missed it i forgive you) should not boast against the natural ones for the Lord would surely not spare us?again bro i agree with you that the Jew and Church are united in Christ, but the Lord is not done with either one of us and there is a distinction between Jew and Gentile for the Lord's purposes at this time untill He is done dealing with us even though we are 1 people.

Here is a link to an interesting article that you guys might find enlightening. It doesn't deal so much with the original topic of this thread but more so with the theme that has 'hijacked' this thread.Why the Jew?In Christ,Ron

Quote, ""Then there's those who know that Israel is sinning against God and will be judged, but not "utterly destroyed" because that's where Jesus is coming to rescue them from the invading armies in the end and plant His feet on Mt. Olives and rule from Jerusalem and they are Not dispensationalists.""Yes, and there are those that know that the Church is sinning. It does not matter whether Jew or Gentile, those that are not in Christ will be judged and not by the Judgment Seat of Christ. Jesus will come and rescue those that are the elect and Chosen, but who are the elect and chosen?Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 1Ti 5:21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious, 1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, (foreign, non Jewish) a peculiar (the act of obtaining a purchased possession) people; (Christ Possession of New Creatures) that ye should shew forth the praises of Him (God the Father) who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:It is not Israel, It is not the Church, but the Chosen Elect Body of Christs' Church.I am a dispensationalist, He will plant His feet on the Mt. Of Olives and rule over this earth and the 144,000 for 1000 years from the New Jerusalem and us brought with Him living in the Father's House forever in our prepared place.Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.It must not have been prepared yet until He goes, then He will prepare a place for us.Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (Forever)In Christ: Phillip