Chinese believers face torture and possible death sentence

The following is one story from the March 14th news & prayer update from Voice of the Martyrswww.persecution.comPlease be aware that this story makes specific refrences to different methods of torture.Prayers for March 14, 2006From The Voice of the Martyrs CHINA (China Aid Association)The first trial of the 17 top leaders from a Chinese religious group ended March 3rd, after three-and-a-half days. Inhumane torture, including sexual abuse, was revealed by some defendants during the court trial. CAA learned from a government source that only one relative of each of the 17 defendants was allowed to attend the hearing. One defendant, Mr. Xu, immediately revoked his so-called "confession papers" as soon as the court finished reading the prosecutors interrogation records. He said the listed confessions were signed under enormous torture, when "I would rather die than live." He was hung in the air for five hours after sleep deprivation for five days and nights. Some self-claimed "torture experts" tied his fingers, toes and genitals with wire and then connected the wire to electricity. One defendant was hung in the air with a very thick blanket and then electrified after he got extremely wet. Mr. Xu's daughter, Ms. Xu Baiyin, described her father as "calm and peaceful." "In his final remark, he urged everyone in the court to believe in Jesus; otherwise, they will one day face eternal judgments in heaven. He also urged his children to continue to follow Christ without fear." Government sources have said Xu and at least three co-defendants will be sentenced to death. Give thanks to God for these faithful followers of Jesus who are trusting in His power to sustain them. Pray that as Christians around the world petition the Chinese government and lift these believers in fervent prayer, God will have mercy on them, not only sparing their lives, but also releasing them from further prison time. Pray their witness of calm peace will move the hearts of all who watched them during this trial and authorities will come to know the One who is seeking them before it is too late.

makes you wonder are we of the same substance and Faith as these brethren here who suffered so? Lord try us that we may know what manner of Christian we are, real or fake.AMEN

I would encourage everyone to read hebrews 11 again, Leonard Ravenhill read it everyday with tears. "accepting not deliverance" are we going to follow in the steps of these dear saints that have gone through suffering for the kingdom of God. This life is so short and eternity awaits.who in their right mind would endure such horrors for the sake of His glory excpet those who have His Spirit? we live in a world in which appearances matter so much so many give off the perception of being Christians and yet are not. The fire which is coming will expose us for what we are. i pray that our substance be not foiund to be lacking.

Just....man....Praise God for their lives.Puts myself to shame. It is so easy to stand up, preach, and talk to everyone after the service. So pampered compared to these saints.....may God be with them always and may His name be glorified through their obedience.

such trials and even more will be upon us like a flood. then we will know which ones are for God wholly and which are not. Let us not be found among the ranks of the latter.

The Chinese brethren have encouraged my heart so many times. There's a very compelling video I've mentioned several times that should be seen and it's sold on the VOM website. It's available for free at Chinese followers of Jesus. The Seeds of Blood has testimonies of many who have been severely persecuted and the thing that struck me was the incredible joy that had in the midst of suffering.There's a work of the Spirit that can be done in no way other than suffering. Once we're sold out to Jesus, persecution will come. If we're not undergoing persecution, then are we really sold out to Jesus? (2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.) That's a question we should bring before the Lord and it's one he's more than willing to answer.

Greetings beloved of the Lord.If we're not undergoing persecution, then are we really sold out to Jesus? I think that is a fair and honest question to ask ourselves. I think of this also...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fearI think of that verse and have to recognise that, no one ever asks me this question. It could be that the scripture has in mind the situation where a believer is being threatened with death?I want to check out that video, thanks.God be with us brothers, and try us, and prove us according to his wisdom and time.

From the video's websitehow did the number of Chinese Christians increase from 700,000 in 1949 to approximate 70 million today despite communist control?Wow.Praise......God. Absolutely wonderfull.

This is where the rubber meets the road....As Paul Ravenhill told me one time 'here in America we're missing it'. And that we are!! We try to decide what to eat each day with our refrigerators full of food ....and nothing we have sounds good so we order out :-( Missing it?? I wonder if we see the target?

bro J-BirdI think if we would take some stands as a church we wouldn'nt have to see it get that far in our generation. I really don't want to have to endure that kind of torture just so others can see if I'm real or not. I KNOW I'm real. I don't want my kids to go through that either. Lets take PREVENTIVE measures. Thats why our forefathers gave their blood, so we would'nt have to endure these kind of torments.the thing is though the vast majority or people aren't real and we need that fire to come through and consume those that aren't real so we can set about the Lord's business. your flesh was talking when you said that you didn't want to go through the fire. What does your inner man say. i say this because the nature of the flesh is such that it doesn't want to endure anything strenuous. my flesh says the same thing believe me but my spirit man says "bring the fire!" and that voice is getting louder and louder and i'm finding i feel a greater desire to endure what is to come and look forward to it. i'm no masochist or anything twisted like that but ultimately the Lord is glorified in our trials and tribulation. It is not by the strength of our outer man (flesh) by which we endure trial but by the Lord's own Holy Spirit. This fire reveals GOd's ultimate triumph over the the principalities and power of the air who use violence and all manner of things to further their cause. they let it all loose on the cross and the preceding events.if we are unafraid to endure the pain and death which they will surely bring upon us then what more can they scare us with? nothing, the game is over, Christ wins.i look forward to it because Christ suffered for our sake and if He suffered so then why should we think ourselves or hope ourselves to be exempt from such? The Lord has shown me we're past the stage of dogding this bullet, we have been too busy to repent proactively so now we will get a lashing from God and those that will will surely repent reactively. check this latter portion of Hebrews 1132 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided F40 some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.if the Lord has it in His plan that i must suffer (He has shown me HE does) or that my daughter would suffer for His name's sake then let the Lord's will not my own be done. She is His child first. Christ told us that no servant is greater than his master and if even He suffered, we too can expect the same and worse. our forefathers didn't die so we wouldn't have to endure suffering but they died for the Faith as an example to us of the cost of the Faith, persecution even unto death. The first time the Lord laid suffering on me i told Him what i thought of that idea. He didn't respond. i had been under the impression (hence my being repulsed by the whole idea) that He expected me to suffer of my own strength ( i was wrong, dead wrong and had to repent of that) but in time by His grace i realized the truth. It is not by my might that these things will be endured, but the the Lord's own Holy Spirit who will so empower us as to endure. when that dawned on me i had 2 words, BRING IT!bless the Lord that it is His grace that allows us to endure coz you know there is no way we're about to freely give up our beautiful, supple bodies to suffering for His sake...

brethren the Lord also showed me this thing i feel led to share. if God in heaven thought the matter of our salvation to be of such gravity and magnitude that it required the blood of Jesus, who is without sin and Himself is God, then you best believe that we should be aware of this and take the matter of our salvation with equal seriousness even unto the shedding of our own blood for His glory's sake. if Christ suffered who are we to think we don't need to?

IRONMAN....I'm with you...the fact is we dont want to suffer! We will spend 1-18 hours a week or more typing on the forum debating, but have we spent 1-18 hours in the streets for Jesus??? OR have we spent 1-18 hours interceeding for the lost?? We wont suffer behind a computer. We will excercise 4-7 hours a week. We watch tv 1-20 hours a week. Please dont come back and post a justification for the hours mentioned. The question is HOW BADLY TO WE WANT TO BE LIKE JESUS!!!?

Aw, don't worry guys. We just need to send them a copy of "Your Best Life Now". Joel can make everything feel better.

Greetings beloved of the Lord.I was wondering if there isn't another issue of importance here that we may not realise - the issue of compassion for those who are suffering now, especially for those who are called by His name.According to The American heritage Dictionary compassion isDeep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.I was reading a story today about a believer that lost his arm after being attacked after he refused to stop selling Christian literature. It was sort of strange but as I read and re-read this story from time to time I noticed that my arm was hurting - especially when I would look at the picture of him, missing his arm.Now, those feelings may have been nothing, just some sort of pyschological response, but could it be a hint of what we all need if we are going to drink our share of the cup of suffering that God has for us? Don't we all need to be more aware of the suffering of our brothers and sisters in chains and under oppression before we are going to be willing to suffer with them, to come along side them and help them bear the load?And not just them, but even the lost? Beloved, we need compassion.Ohh brothers, what if we truely had hearts full of compassion for our less fortunate brethren, wouldn't we want to share our abundance with them? Wouldn't we want to pray with them and for them? we might even want to sacrifice meals on their behalf.Certainly this would hold true for those who do not know Christ! How much more would our hearts yearn to see thier life-starved souls nourished by Him Who is eternal life! Ohh the thought, that we can taste of His precious gifts and not want to lavish them upon all we see! Do we lack compassion? The children of Him Who through His own passion has made us rich forever?Ohh brothers, may God enlarge our hearts!

Aw, don't worry guys. We just need to send them a copy of "Your Best Life Now". Joel can make everything feel better.Very good ;-)

bro BrentwIRONMAN....I'm with you...the fact is we dont want to suffer! We will spend 1-18 hours a week or more typing on the forum debating, but have we spent 1-18 hours in the streets for Jesus??? OR have we spent 1-18 hours interceeding for the lost?? We wont suffer behind a computer. We will excercise 4-7 hours a week. We watch tv 1-20 hours a week. Please dont come back and post a justification for the hours mentioned. The question is HOW BADLY TO WE WANT TO BE LIKE JESUS!!!? indeed how badly do we want to be like Him? the time is indeed fast-coming when we'll have to walk the walk and put it all on the line.may our courage not be found lacking.AMEN.

bro ChrisThe Lord had you bring up another crucial thing, compassion. it's one thing to be aware of suffering but another to respond as God would have us respond. i touch and agree with you bro. Lord enlarge our hearts.AMEN.

bro J birdI agree. With our Supreme court predominantly Roman Catholic, and the new pope breathing out threatenings, the word INQUISITION comes to mind. Since all the laws of the inquisition are still in place and ready to be implamented once again, it will not be long before the ecumenical movement is embrassed by all denominations and a truly catholic(universal) church is established in the REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE. Have you seen the new paper money lately? Looks alot like the EURO. After the economy of the United States finally colapses because of the debt that our great, great, great, great, granchildren will still be paying finally takes a tole and can no longer be HID by our leaders, we will be forced to join the EUROPEAN UNION so our people will not starve to death because all our farmers have quit farming and we now import more food than we export.We have sold our selves out for the almighty dollar and we will soon reap the consequences. We will be under the rule of a system that is rapidly gaining strength. Anyone notice all the countrys in the European Union lately? Anyone notice the ones that were pending? It's all about to happen. JUST LIKE THE BIBLE TELLS US. I pray that Gods will be done. Do I want to see my country fall? NO. Do I want to try and stop it? YES!! I love my country and have served my country and would die for my country and for Jesus. But to say that I would stand by and just let someone come in and put me in that kind of bondage is CRAZY. I will use all measures to protect my family and myself. Once a soldier always a soldier.Don't sit there all self righteous and tell me you would'nt do the same thing. If you would'nt protect your family your not much of a man. You definately don't bleed red white and blue. well that economic fall is coming fast and it will affect our government and military leaving it in tatters. we won't be able to lean on those institutions any more but will have to lean solely on Christ. i understand how you feel about not wanting this country to fall and with you having been a soldier the desire to defend it with your life even. i wanted to serve in the navy once as a naval aviator. The Lord had other plans. i've pledged my allegiance to heaven so my concern is God's will being done in me and through me. if someone did come here to occupy this country unless the Lord leads me to go out and fight, i'm not going. if He does i'll be right there with you. also bro J-Bird we should remember that should anyone come here with the intent to put us in bondage, if the Lord has purposed it to be so, there ain't no stopping that train so we should be sure of what the Lord requires and do that, no more nor less. as far as defending my family, i'm sure the Lord will probably let me do that and will empower me to do so as He would have me do. there was an occassion in which this young kid almost ran my daughter and i over, my immediate instinct was to give him a licking. i'm not a violent man but the last time i felt like that and let loose, had it not been for the Lord's hands i'd be in prison or executed for what could have been. while i was in the process of going in His direction the Lord convicted me and told me to leave Him alone and let Him deal with it so i did. he did mock me some but the Lord told me "don't you do that..."i think of the scripture in which Christ tells us to turn the other cheek, then i think of how it was for Him being mocked and scourged. God in the flesh mocked and tortured and killed by His own creation and yet instead of rising up in anger He said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." if anyone had a right to defend Himself, it was Christ...yet He didn't. The world would have us believe that we have the right to, but what would God have us do? i guess that's the bottom line, what would God have us do. bro J-Bird, if it makes me less of a man in your book then i'll be that, if i don't bleed red white and blue that's cool too but i feel the Lord leading me to a place wherein i trust Him to defend me should i need it and let me be afflicted by whatever means for His name's sake.better to be the only one obedient to the Lord than be with the rest in disobedience. we're a fiercly independant people here and i understand where you're coming from. this is not an accusation against you but a testimony of where i feel the Lord leading me and the result of His dealings with me thus far. it seems the Lord is dealing with you differently, i'm just sharing where He has me at.love yu broLord show us to be obedient to you in all things.AMEN.

bro J-Birdif i could probe deeper into this. what sort of freedom is it that we must fight for when the freedom which Christ gives was one He died willingly for? if the Lord had wanted it to be another way it would have been so, meaning war serves a purpose in God's plan. In Israel's case the wars they fought were after the Lord led them to as they were moving through the promise land. they were oft outnumbered so God fought for them the word says. as for the founding fathers of America, some were Godly, others not. on the one hand the declaration says that they believed all men were created equal with certain inalienable rights, then on the other the Washington, Jefferson and many others owned slaves. a bit of conflict here. then there is also the issue of the extermination and marginalization of the native american.somehow the issue of Christ enduring of what He did for my sake leaves me wondering what right i have to defend myself if Christ didn't though He could have. if i'm to be like Him i should turn the other cheek like He said to. then annie said that nothing would happen to her unless heaven allowed it so she didn't need her husband to hurt anyone for her. i feel the same way, nothing happens outside of God's will or knowledge...much to wrestle with browe do disagree but praise God the love that binds us in Christ goes beyond that. AMEN.love you too bro

bro J-birdHeres a reality check right out of Foxs book of martyrs. China, 1970. In August 1970, it was reported that vladimir, a chrisitan, was arrested in Shanghai. In prison they put iron tubes around his legs and tightened them with screws. Then they beat on the tubes with a hammer until the vibrations broke the bones in both legs. All this to make him confess to imaginary crimes against the government. He did not confess. Seversl communist police officers then went to his home and on of them, a womwn, held vladimirs baby in his hands and told Vladimirs wife, "If you don't sign an accusation against the prisoner (her husband), we will smash the head of the child." She refused, not believing any human being would do that. The woman police officer smashed the babys head against the wall several times killing the baby. The mother went mad and grabbed a knife from the table and stabbed the officer. The other police officer shot and killed her. Is this really the life we WANT to live. I prefer freedom. "Give me liberty or give me death."i don't think anyone would want to live such a life but our life in Christ isn't about what we want, it's about what God wants. you say give me liberty or death i say give me Christ or death. i'm not afraid of death coz i know where i'll be after it all and if the Lord brings trial and suffering for His name's sake then i'd be honoured to endure it that His name be lifted up before my own desires. i've oft marvelled at the anglo-american concept of liberty but never really known (so if you bro J-bird or anyone else can explain please do) what is it we are free from and how does that fit into God's plan? also is our right to defend ourselves a God-given right or one given by the world?is this liberty in Christ coz if it's not then should we be seeking it at all?i've seen no evidence of any of the apostles or early Christians responding in kind to violence inflicted on them. then there is Christ saying to turn the other cheek and practising that on the way to the cross, His admonishion to pray for our persecutors and love those who hate us...then the latter part of hebrews 11 in which the afflicted didn't accept deliverance but endured for the sake of a better resurrection. it seems the witness from the word is to suffer the affliction since vengeance is the Lord's so perhaps to resist is the way of the world?

sis anniewhat you wrote in response was the same thing as what the Lord has been laying on me, i guess i'm not crazy after all.

Greetings again beloved and choosen of God.I pray that God would give us wisdom in how we see and respond to these things. Certainly we should not glory in suffering for suffering's sake. Yet we know that there is a suffering according to righteousness which is godly and even blessed Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.And yet I wonder how real this verse is for us as individualsAnd whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it...It is easy to become distracted by the duties of daily life and forget some things that are more pressing and needfull in light of eternity. How aware for instance, are we of the suffering of those around us, on our jobs? Suffering is something so universal to fallen man that there are no doubt many around you that are suffering and you may not even know it.One thing I have realised that suffering is accomplishing in my own life is perspective. As I have experienced suffering in my own life it has enlarged my capacity to appreciate the lives of others. There is a pathos of the suffering soul that gives our eyes a vision they might not otherwise have and a tenderness our heart might otherwise not feel.I have also come to understand more of my own desperate need of God's grace in suffering. Brother J-bird, the story you shared from Fox's should really bring this home to us. None of us could possibly bear the onslaughts of the demonic inspired cruelties that have and can be unleashed upon mankind without our precious Saviour's grace. Ohh brothers let us never loose sight of how desperately we need Him in everything.Remember our Lord's words to Peter before his trial But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail notBeloved we have a High Priest, and His intercession shall bring us through. We know it won't be our strength for sure.Peace be with you all. And may we remember those in chains.Brother Ironman, I thank God for your heart's desire, may He enlarge our hearts indeed!

bro J-Birdi appreciate you humouring my questions/foolishness as i wrestle with all of this. you have a unique perspective on it all which i don't have since you were once a soldier.i understand the issue of the proaganda out there which is indeed brainwashing some but there is a bit of brainwashing coming from both sides of the aisle though. now i certainly agree that there is a movement to remove God from all things in this country with some degree of success. i wonder though whether these brazen attempts are a reflection of our own pushing God out the picture thus emboldening those with this agenda? :-( i must also mention that having been born here and been raised in zimbabwe and then returning here, i get an overwhelming sense of great pride among many people here and also the Lord is showing me that He shall bring that pride low, that we would humble ourselves before Him. perhaps this has to do with being the only superpower left, but history says that such prominence can't be sustained forever. my concern is now what becomes of us when all that is gone, when our wealth is gone, government is in tatters and military in shreds?i'll await you response (if the Lord leads and allows you to) on the imprortance of liberty to you and your fellow man. of late though i feel that any liberty which must be fought for is not really liberty because we fight because we're afraid of losing that liberty. which is why i asked what sort of liberty is it that we fight for? liberty in Christ however once found doesn't come with a spirit of fear (i prefer the latter)then also it seems to me a lot of people are Americans first then Christians second or somewhere else down the line which is an idolatry and abomination before God which requires repentance. bro i really am greatful for your time and responses for the Lord is teaching me through it all so i look forward to your responses. when i sign on so s.i. i always read your responses last...saving the best for last :-) love you much bro

bro J-BirdKarl Marx, whos writings have plagued this planet, and caused some of the greatest atrosities against human kind said something that kinda brings it all home."Destroy the roots of the people, and the people are EASILY swayed."indeed, i totally agree.Ironman, the quote "give me liberty or give me death" came from one of my countrys greatest heros, Patrick Henry, who was a very godly man. You should read about Him. I believe patriotism and christianity go hand and hand.as the Lord leads i'll learn more about him. you said patriotism and Christianity go hand in hand. should they be in that order or reversed though? :-?

bro ChrisI pray that God would give us wisdom in how we see and respond to these things. Certainly we should not glory in suffering for suffering's sake. Yet we know that there is a suffering according to righteousness which is godly and even blessedamen bro! for what good is it if we gove our bodies to be burned and yet have not love? if the Lord should honour us with persecution then we should receive it gladly lest we kick against the goards of His will (and break our feet)It is easy to become distracted by the duties of daily life and forget some things that are more pressing and needfull in light of eternity. How aware for instance, are we of the suffering of those around us, on our jobs? Suffering is something so universal to fallen man that there are no doubt many around you that are suffering and you may not even know it.indeed bro, it's amazing sometimes how just saying hello to someone can light up their face. earlier i was feeling really down and a lady came through here and made me laugh for a while which was what i needed at the time. there is indeed much suffering that goes on before our very eyes which we are oblivious to and could be used of God to alleviate. and when one has suffered too, one's heart is enlarged and more easily compelled to help. Brother J-bird, the story you shared from Fox's should really bring this home to us. None of us could possibly bear the onslaughts of the demonic inspired cruelties that have and can be unleashed upon mankind without our precious Saviour's grace. Ohh brothers let us never loose sight of how desperately we need Him in everything.indeed, unless the Lord Himself by His Holy Spirit empower us, there is no way we can endure what is to come. bless the Lord we have holy SPirit and one who goes before the Father on our behalf.bro the Lord has been burdening me about turning the other cheek and doing what is honorable in His sight. i pray that the Lord would indeed give us grace to do as He would have us do.AMEN.

sister anniei thank the Lord for your candor and will be holding you up in prayer. sis annie you're 5'2" you sound like you're 6' and at least a deuce...i'm 5/4 132lbs and on the rugby field i've been accused of playing like i weigh 250...go ahead on sis as the Lord leads.love you sis!!!

...a guy came in with panty hose over his face, saying give me the money and I pulled the panty hose off. HA. The cops thought that was a riot.Annie Oakly! That is a riot sister! (Even though it could be a health hazard!) :knockedout: Nice one!MC

Greetings eveyone.J-BirdThere is a movement in this country to try and overthrow any faith in our government so the people will lose the will to fight. Do you understand? There is alot of propaganda out there, and many people are falling for it.You know I think you may be right about this. Through Coral Ridge Ministries and others I have learned alot about our nations Christian Heritage. I just got a book from them called "Christianity and the American Commonwealth" by Charles B. Galloway. I think he was a Methodist and the book is from around 1898.Anyway, I was really really amazed to learn just how much our faith is bound up in the history of this nation. Amazing! Some of the facts are really like night and day compared with how things are portrayed today. I was so surprised at how badly our history has been distorted, at least it was in my mind!Here's a qoute from the book I mentioned. The qoute is from George Washington's inaugural addressIt would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplication to that almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aid can supply every human defect, that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow citizens at large less than neither. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.Wow!That my friends, does not sound like a deist talking.Amazing.

bro J-Birdthank you and i pray the Lord's guidance on you in that response. i figured it would take a while before you fomulated a response so it's cool. Does any HUMAN have the right to own you, or make decisions for you and your family?No human has such a right or such power unless God Himself gives it. i belong to Him and He does with me as He sees fit. The word also tells us that all things do work for the good of those that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. also i wonder if in some regard we have exalted liberty above God and if when we do lose it if that is the Lord's judgement on us for that idolatry.

Greetings everyone. Hi brother Ironman, hope you had a good and godly day!also i wonder if in some regard we have exalted liberty above God and if when we do lose it if that is the Lord's judgement on us for that idolatry. I saw this and for some reason I remembered this qoute I wrote down a while back. When I first got here to Philadelphia I was out and about sharing the faith and spent some time looking around the area. A couple blocks from me is the "Germantown White House" a house that George Washington supposedly? used as the 'White House' while he was here(I could be mistaken about this but it's what I remember hearing). I was also told that he attended the Church that is across the street. So anyway, in front of that Church is a sort of memorial, and in a certain part, it had this inscription which I thought to write down for some reasonLiberty without obedience is confusion and obedience without liberty is slavery.I think the qoute was attributed to William Penn.It seems to me that our fathers had a different idea of what liberty was than what we do today? I remember that in the Pentecostal Chruch I used to attend, the word liberty seemed to be used in the context of freedom of worship and expression, for instance in dancing or some such. It seems that perhaps the scripture has in mind something different concerning liberty, something more along the lines of freedom to obey God from a pure heart.God bless you brother and shine His gracious face upon you.Annie, thanks for sharing the song. I don't think I've ever heard it. J-bird, I can really appreciate your point about George Washington and the Masons. The fact that when we view the lives of historical figures we have to keep in mind their entire life story, not just a certain period, was something that unfortantely was lost on me untill after I realised that I had cast doubt upon the spiritual integrity of this tremendous man becuase of the connections with Masonry. Very poor judgement on my part and shamefull.God be with you all in Christ.

bro J-Birdsomehow i missed thisSo true. Let me add that George Washington WAS a Mason at one time, but saw the wickedness of that cult and later resigned from the lodge. God convicted him of it and he gave it up. Let me also add to all who would be self righteouss and say that "you can't be born again and be a part of something like that". John Newton, who wrote Amazing Grace, did'nt give up slave trading for years after his conversion. but god began to convict him of it and he gave it up. Some say this is the whole reason he wrote Amazing Grace. Kinda adds a new perspective on it, does'nt it?i thank the Lord He brought it to my attention. the Lord freely forgives those who truly repent. i see much bitterness all around me and unforgiveness. i think most of it has to do with guilt over our own sins which we have yet to repent of. yes Amazing grace indeed, one of my favourite hymns, kinda weird for a black guy who most would think is a rastafarian (i have locks) :-P

bro ChrisIt seems to me that our fathers had a different idea of what liberty was than what we do today? I remember that in the Pentecostal Chruch I used to attend, the word liberty seemed to be used in the context of freedom of worship and expression, for instance in dancing or some such. It seems that perhaps the scripture has in mind something different concerning liberty, something more along the lines of freedom to obey God from a pure heart.you know bro, i'd not even considered that at all, what if our present idea of liberty is a different one from what the founding fathers had in mind. there is perhaps a good amount of merit to that idea. i didn't know that george washington had even left the masonic order. i thought he remained one for life. i guess one can't be too far gone for redemption.

Ironman,what if our present idea of liberty is a different one from what the founding fathers had in mind.It is something that would be easy to overlook, you know? I think we all have a tendency to make assumptions, not even knowing it. That said I suspect that there is a great deal of our history that is being overlooked or distorted.Here is another qoute from George Washington which I got from a paper called FASTFACTS, America's Christian Heritage, it is available from Coral Ridge MinistiresO most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ my merciful and loving Father, I acknowledge and confess my guilt, in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day." - from Daily Sacrifice, Washington's personal prayer book, written in his own handwritting, declaring continual faithfulness to Jesus ChristAlso from this paper is this amazing factSeptember 11, 1777- The Continental Congrees recommended and approved that the Committee of Commerce "import 20,000 Bibles from Holland, Scotland, or elsewhere, "becuase of the great shortage of Bibles created by the Revolutionary War's interruption of trade with England.There is just sooo much to discuss here. Some of the facts of America's history that I have heard are absolutely astonding when compared with the political climate here today. How did we get from that qoute above to today??Maybe we could start a different thread and discuss these things? By the way, thanks Annie for bringing that scolling alert from persecution.com to our attention. Their monthly newsletter has alot of info also.Have a good and godly day everyone.

sister anniewhoa that was some heavy stuff there...on those pages. link after link exposing the enemy's plans. The elaborate nature of this is dwarfed only by the fact that the Lord's plan includes all this and is even bigger...what a mighty God we serve indeed!

sis annieyou posted this: Our world needs people who are willing to confront death, and discover life. We need people who are willing to believe that God is able to act even when life seems as unlikely around us as to a bunch of old bones. The world needs people who have died to themselves and who have been born to new life. Robert Capon said, “We are in a war between dullness and astonishment.” The most critical issue facing Christians is not abortion, pornography, disintegration of the family, moral absolutes, MTV, drugs, racism, sexuality or school prayer. The critical issue today is dullness. We have lost our astonishment. The Good News is no longer Good News; it is okay news. Christianity is no longer life changing, it is life enhancing. Jesus doesn’t change people into wild-eyed radicals anymore, he changes them into nice people ! If Christianity is simply about being nice, I’m not interested. What happened to radical Christianity, the un-nice brand of Christianity that turned the world upside-down? What happened to the category-smashing, life-threatening, anti-institutional gospel that spread through the first century like wildfire and was considered (by those in power) dangerous? What happened to the kind of Christians whose hearts were on fire, who had no fear, who spoke the truth no matter what the consequence, who made the world uncomfortable, who were willing to follow Jesus wherever he went? What happened to the kind of Christians who were filled with passion and gratitude, and who every day were unable to get over the grace of God? [He says] I’m ready for a Christianity that “ruins” my life, that captures my heart and makes me uncomfortable. I want to be filled with an astonishment, which is so captivating that I am considered wild and unpredictable and, well, dangerous. Yes, I want to be “dangerous” to a dull and boring religion. I want a faith that is considered dangerous by our predictable and monotonous culture."this is something worthy of some meditation on and consideration on our part. when we rise up against persecution, our own persecution, are we doing it for fear of death? conversly when we offer ourselves up for it, are we doing it for God's glory or our own?

Dear Annie,I don't know what else to say. Should I continue on this thread above ?I don't know, maybe though this is not the right thread?Also, and this is just a suggestion, but I am wondering if by repeating or giving voice to the plans of these people that we might somehow become partakers of them(I hope not but)? This verse comes to mind...And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.because... For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.It concerns me that our giving utterance to thier plans could make us partakers with them? :-( I believed, therefore have I spokenSurely wicked men have schemes unfortantely...Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.but what is the reply of scripture to this... He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.That is amazing,and I think Peter also saw that this was fulfilled in his day becuase,For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,for this cause...For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.So, perhaps then the same holds true today, that whatever these schemes are, they are ultimately according, or under 'His hand and His counsel'? God forbid we think there is any evil doing or fault with God! A thousand times no! But, we also are assured by a similar instance...This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.Dear annie, I am just concerned that we can misplace our focus. I do not believe our Lord wants us to be troubled or worried by anything. Unfortunatley we still do though, at least I do. So often He came to His disciples with the wordsfear notAnd shouldn't we be assured today that For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.even those who plot against him today?No matter how much power these people accumulate to themselves, we know that Christ has ascended and is placed Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:Ohh this is very comforting to think about brothers and sisters. Please don't misunderstand me, I am just concerned for our hearts. So, maybe it is also good to remember that our King still reigneth, and always will.May God refresh us and nourish our hearts evermore.

Hi again Annie and everyone.Annie, again, I think the issue that concerns me about this topic is one of focus. My concern is not about the events themselves, it's with the content that is being studied and what believers may imbibe into thier hearts and minds in the process. Isn't there a danger in studying the thoughts and plans of satan and the words of his workers? Please, before anyone glosses over that question, what is any ism really?Certainly the holy scripture deals with this, but these things come to us there from the pure mind of God, not from the defiled and corrupted minds of ungodly men.Beloved if the scripture says this But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lordthen could this apply also for other things we gaze at intently?This verse might not exactly match this context, but I think the principle holds trueTurn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.for the scripture also says Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.Beloved, I am not saying we should not earnestly study the scriptures to know what they say. My concern is in studying the thoughts and words of these people who are avowed against the Lord.And even in our study of the scriptures we can loose sight of that to which they all point, the Person of our LordSearch the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.Even in that great and final book of our Bible, we see, in my opinon, the unfolding of the Majesty of God in Christ more than anything else. Alright, thank you for letting me share with you my concerns.God be with us.

Dear Annie, I'm not sure how, or if I should, respond to the statements and accusations in your last response to me.I still hope you will consider the concern that I raised. Thank you. In Christ,Christopher