Background reading.The last verse of Acts 2 reads:47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. 2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple; 3 who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. 4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us. 5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. 6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. 7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 19 Repent ...Acts 4:1 And as they spoke unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, 2 being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide. 4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand. What I'd like to discuss is, whether you think/believe there is any scriptural evidence in the account of the healing at the Beautiful Gate, to enable us to conclude that the man was born again or filled with the Holy Spirit, when he was healed?If he wasn't, then what reasons might we give for Peter having offered him healing rather than the salvation message?Do you think Peter got it wrong?If Peter was 'right', then should his strategy affect ours?
Gate Beautiful... Salvation opportunity missed?
The beggar stood up headed into the temple and was praising God. He sounds more fired up than most of the believers today. Is it possible he received salvation right after he was healed?Murray
The beggar stood up headed into the temple and was praising God. He sounds more fired up than most of the believers today.Ah murdog! .... "There is a place of quiet rest, near to the heart of God..."Does one have to be born again to praise God?
Dorcas,You don't have to be born again to praise God which I know is what you were getting at. All I am saying is that after receiving his healing he got up went to church with Peter and John. I don't think the two of them would have let the beggar go away without hearing that Jesus died for his sins(the beggar's) and that he has to be born again. I don't know for sure, but those would be two guys I would have liked to gone to church with.Murray
Dorcas,I long to be able to use Peter's strategy (i.e. miraculous healing) but as is stands all I have are the words to say (gospel message).Murray
I long to be able to use Peter's strategy (i.e. miraculous healing) Mark 16:17, 18"And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." You know, when David Wilkerson's newly converted drug addicts went on to the streets of New York with the gospel, no-one had told them the people they prayed for might not get healed.... so they believed .... and people were healed!This is exactly what Duncan Campbell said about his training for the ministry... academic professors put it into the minds of students like him that the Bible might not be true in places, and the doubts it cast robbed his ministry of fruit for YEARS, until he returned to an original faith.
Increase My Faith!
Dorcas,The last sentence in Acts 2 is "And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved." Then they heal the beggar in Acts 3:6 and then in verse 26 they say "When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways." The beggar was with Peter and John to hear all this and in verse 19 they said "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord"In Chapter 4:4 it says "But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand."I believe that beggar was one who believed, therefore a salvation opportunity was not missed.Murray
Oh boy, when I read about the rich young ruler-- it sure seems like Jesus missed a salvation opportunity! *wink wink*
The rich young ruler didn't want the answer he got, did he? He knew where his heart was - with his riches. Jesus told him what he had to do, and he just wasn't prepared to.The man at the Gate Beautiful was much more open-hearted, don't you think, in that when Peter said 'Silver and gold have I none', the cripple was not immediately uninterested in them? He still looked back at Peter and received what Peter offered - his health,in the name of Jesus of Nazareth. I'd like to discuss further, whether there is any biblical reason for Christians to hold back healing from a person who is not a believer.... It is that big question mark hanging over whether the cripple had some other experience than 'just healing', which makes this account so important, I believe. Luke could easily have dropped in a little word about how at that moment (of receiving his healing) he had been baptised in the Holy Spirit, or been born again. But, the disciples were used to receiving a step by step revelation of how to draw near to God, and that's what they ministered to the people. I wonder why we think we should do it differently?
Dorcas,There was no space in time between 'Silver and gold I have none' and receiving his healing. Peter said it all in one sentence. So he didn't have time to become 'uninterested' as you put it. If you reread Chapter 3 in it's entirety I believe you can conclude the beggar also believed on Jesus. The beggar was holding on to Peter and John (Acts 3:11) when they addressed the crowds about repenting and faith in Jesus.John 9:3 But this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his lifeMurray
Linn,I think that Murray caught some of what you were fishing for. Peter and John had walked with Jesus and had learned a very important concept. Miracles are not the goal; they are not the focal point. After the lame man was healed they used the opportunity (didn't miss it) to preach Jesus to the crowd that had gathered in the temple. Murray is right in deducting that the lame man was most likely among those who believed the message.Many of the miracles that Jesus performed were not upon 'believers' that is 'saved' people. Jesus had compassion upon the multitudes but His primary purpose was not meeting peoples needs, whether healing, food, clothing, finances, or any other temporal thing, for their comfort. The primary objective in fulfilling a physical need for the 'lost' is to open their hearts to recieve the message that will change their eternity.I believe that one of the reasons that we do not see 'signs' in America is because we have so many natural alternatives. Why do we have to believe for God to multiply the loaves and fishes when we have a credit card and a grocercy store 2 minutes away? We have been conditioned to trust in natural resources because they are so readily available.These natural resources may be used often for the same purpose as the miracles. A hungry man doesn't much care where the food came from; he is satisified that his belly is full. When we meet a physical need of an individual it demonstrates the love and goodness of God and softens their heart to hear the Gospel. It is the goodness and kindness of God that leads men to repentance.There is a danger of elevating miracles, signs and wonders to a place of idolatry. Jesus rebuked the religious establishment of His day for 'seeking a sign.' They wanted proof. There is no faith based on proof. Jesus told Thomas blessed are those who having not seen believe.On another thread TS spoke of denominations disintegrating and the Body becoming 'one' if a real man of God, who demonstrated Matt. 10 ministry came on the scene. I wish that were true but the fact is the religious community, in large, did not repent at the miracles of Jesus.The unity of the Body that we all desire, will not come through programs, miracles, consensus of doctrine, or any human effort. The only way we will ever see unity is if we join Jesus in prayer. Not for revival, not for miracles but prayer to the Father that He would make us one.This 'oneness' of the brethren will take place when the Father so transforms us individually that we lose our agenda, our desires, our passions and our will, and His thoughts and mind fill us. Then when I have the mind of Christ and you have the mind of Christ, we will be of one mind and one heart. It is at this point that the world will know that the Father has sent His only Son Jesus to save the world.Jesus did not commmand us to be one. He prayed to the Father and asked the Father to make us one. It is time that we stop trying to do what only the Father can do and join Jesus in asking the Father to do it.I believe that God is not confirming our gospel with signs and wonders like in Acts 16:20 because we are preaching only half the Gospel. We are robbing God. When we preach a gospel of salvation from hell but do not preach that Jesus died to reconcile the sinner to the Father, then we rob God of the intimacy with His children that He paid so dearly to have. When we begin to preach in such a way that men and women hear of God's desire to come and dwell inside of them, to speak to them, to fellowship with them, to be one with them, then I believe that we will see the power of God manifested.One of the key points that God spoke to me when I listened to The Revival Hymn was that our motive for preaching to the lost can not be the concern of the human condition but to facilitate the new-birth of children into God's family because He wants a BIG family. Fulfilling God's desire has to be our motive. When we are focused on God's desire to have more children rather than simply rescuing people from perishing in hell then I believe God will confirm our preaching.God bless you as you seek His face and heart.Jeff
Hi JeffThis is an interesting topic started by Dorcas. It seems that we have a difference of opinion as to the value or credibility of healing in particular and signs and wonders in general. You put this on your last reply:quote-"There is a danger of elevating miracles, signs and wonders to a place of idolatry. Jesus rebuked the religious establishment of His day for 'seeking a sign.' They wanted proof. There is no faith based on proof. Jesus told Thomas blessed are those who having not seen believe."To this I would reply that you have to have signs and wonders in order to elevate them to any level to say nothing of an looking at them as an idol (anything raised above the Glory/worship only God deserves) Though I hear of miracles happening in third world countries...I cannot validate them or worship them either one. I am extremely touched by Brother Yuns story of the underground church and the Miracles signs and wonder that accompanied his involvement with the spreading of the gospel. It is not for the religious system as you so aptly noted for which all the benefits of Gods power manifested through miracles etc would be most impactful to. It is for the backing up of the Word spoken in power and truth of the Holy Ghost for the unbelievers to become saved. To an unbeliever we christians sound all the same...just different rules. My comment on not having another preacher speaks to this...words are cheap and overused, abused. In this day and age when there is so much information I believe that the value of it has been diminished...you know the supply in demand factor. Because of this non-believers put no stock in what is said...from one side of the body to the next it seems the only people we are talking to is our selves....we have become irelevant to most of the world...they have decided to take what they want to accept and throw out what they don't...this is why we have an "80 odd %" of americans claiming to be christian. Your quote again;"On another thread TS spoke of denominations disintegrating and the Body becoming 'one' if a real man of God, who demonstrated Matt. 10 ministry came on the scene. I wish that were true but the fact is the religious community, in large, did not repent at the miracles of Jesus.The unity of the Body that we all desire, will not come through programs, miracles, consensus of doctrine, or any human effort. The only way we will ever see unity is if we join Jesus in prayer. Not for revival, not for miracles but prayer to the Father that He would make us one."dorcas already used this verse and it cannot be ignored...her quote/verse-Mark 16:17, 18"And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (look at Matthew 10 for more of the same...we are commanded/charged to go heal, raise the dead, cast out demons etc...just because we cannot at this point does not mean we should ignore the issue...we should make this the priority...the trouble is the cost is too high)You could paraphrase this as: if you are one who believes then it may be assumed you will open your mouth and speak of the gospel...THEN because of this belief the signs and wonders will follow. I am still trying to figure out what is missing on our part that keeps this from happening in America and more importantly for me personally. I know the issue does not lie with the God but with me and us at large. I would like to say that it is not "Gods time" for these miracles to be unfolded as in the days of the disciples but there is nothing scriptural to say they ever should have stopped. And it is further verified like you referenced...we have not got to the point of desperation to actually need miracles...(gocery store credit card you mentioned). I am fearful that if ever there was a rich young ruler in need of making the choice of giving it up to follow or walk away in sorrow because we cannot it is the Amercican Christian. Maybe it will be when the need arises for miracles signs and wonders they will come...the need will be when we are at the end or ourselves as in the instances in other countries where it happens. You referenced Jesus prayer to the Father to make us "one". If His prayer did not "work" then what hope have we? On the other hand it was not long after...the cross, the resurection, the falling of Holy Ghost and the ensuing miracles signs and wonders which contributed to the persecution of Christians which ultimately led to the unity I speak about and wait for. Quote--"This 'oneness' of the brethren will take place when the Father so transforms us individually that we lose our agenda, our desires, our passions and our will, and His thoughts and mind fill us. Then when I have the mind of Christ and you have the mind of Christ, we will be of one mind and one heart. It is at this point that the world will know that the Father has sent His only Son Jesus to save the world. Well said and a Hearty Amen...i think we differ a little on what will transpire in order for us to lose our agenda's etc...we will not give it up willingly. It will come from God loving us so much that His judgment will fall making us lose our agendas etc. Many will be offended at God (though they will hold to their "false religion") and not choose to repent and draw close to their only hope. Others in my opinion will start walking in the miracles signs and wonders which will bring many to the true God and Body of Christ.Quote:"I believe that God is not confirming our gospel with signs and wonders like in Acts 16:20 because we are preaching only half the Gospel. We are robbing God. When we preach a gospel of salvation from hell but do not preach that Jesus died to reconcile the sinner to the Father, then we rob God of the intimacy with His children that He paid so dearly to have. When we begin to preach in such a way that men and women hear of God's desire to come and dwell inside of them, to speak to them, to fellowship with them, to be one with them, then I believe that we will see the power of God manifested."We are indeed missing at least "half the Gospel"...but the part I think we are missing in America is Christ as King. How can we say he is our savior when we do not give our allegiance to the King? Psalms 2 is a great study for figuring out how God looks at humans and how we relate/treat the God of All. The King is Holy if we could but grasp what this means we would change or be changed.Psalm 2 1 Why do the nations conspire [a] and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One. [b] 3 "Let us break their chains," they say, "and throw off their fetters." 4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. 5 Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6 "I have installed my King [c] on Zion, my holy hill." 7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son [d] ; today I have become your Father. [e] 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You will rule them with an iron scepter [f] ; you will dash them to pieces like pottery." 10 Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.Blessings.
Jeff and TS,Thank you for replying here. TS, you picked up on some of the points I'd have made.Jeff, I think we all have things which the Lord has revealed to us - such as the meaning of John 17 - which are relevant to the Body, but they cannot be held as stand-alone truths. They must be tempered with the rest of scripture and revelation give through others, of what God has revealed to them. I find it is very important to take it all in, and take it all seriously, most especially, to take to heart any word which God speaks to me (you) as an individual.The one thing you said which TS quoted, which I'd like to pick up on - not because I'm unsure of what you meant, but because I'm unsure that what you meant is scriptural - is this:our passions and our willwhich you speak of in the context of losing them. To be absolutely clear, I don't think we can do without either passion or willpower.Robert Young's translation picks up on this in these verses:Matthew 1624 Then said Jesus to his disciples, `If any one doth will to come after me, let him disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me, 25 for whoever may will to save his life, shall lose it, and whoever may lose his life for my sake shall find it, 26 for what is a man profited if he may gain the whole world, but of his life suffer loss? or what shall a man give as an exchange for his life? Then there is this, which undergirds my belief about the meaning and value of (a) soul.Matthew 22:37 And Jesus said to him, `Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding-- How can we possibly do these, if we are busy trying to do away with our will and our passions? EDIT - or our soul? EDIT end.TS and others, please do feel free to comment...
Dear TS,I don't disagree with you as much as you might think. I believe that much tribulation and persecution is needed to get the church where it needs to be. And that may be the very answer to Jesus prayer.My point of elevating signs and wonders to a place of idolatry is simply that although we all want to see the lost come to Christ that the Father may have many children, it is human nature to become preoccupied with the process. Signs and wonders are for today, I believe that, yet they are not the goal or thing that we need to seek. When we seek anything other than God himself, if anything preoccupies our time, thoughts, affections etc. such that we spend less time seeking His face and His will then that thing, no matter how good, it becomes an idol. I believe that was the point in the thread Revival Idolatry. Revival is not bad or wrong but when we focus our attention upon how to have revival or miracles instead of on God himself then we are missing it.I have been troubled in my own life concerning the fulfillment of the verses quoted. If these signs follow those who believe, then if they are not following me, do I not believe? I agree with you that the problem is not with God. I like what Linn said about cost. Three years ago I was crying out to God because of these concerns in my own life, asking God to use me more. His response to me was, "How much do you want it?" I replied, "I'll do anything!" His response was, "It will cost you your life."I have to admit that the process of my death and His manifestation is not complete, but I am seeing less of me and more of Him. I am seeing Him do things I have never seen before and everyday He shows me what of 'my life' has to be laid down that His life may arise.I encourage you to keep on keeping on and share with us what God shows you because 'we ain't there yet!'Love in Christ,Jeff
murdog, You have indeed understood my original question, and I like your tenacity, but the fact is the Acts do not specifically record the man who was healed being added to the number of believers. No matter how likely it is that he was, we have no proof. And this would be completely in keeping with the many other people whom Jesus healed during Him ministry, who almost without exception left Him when He spoke of eating His flesh and drinking His blood, in John 6... until He finally asked the twelve, in v 67, if they too, wished to leave Him. All those people, many of whom could be following only because they had been healed, stopped following.Why do we think we should present the gospel differently?Why is the Church so lacking in power and compassion that we are even discussing this?
Dorcas,I agree with you, there is no way I can say with 100% certainty that the beggar received salvation. Acts was written after the gospels and it does not mention the mass falling away that happened in John 6:60 happening again. "And the Lord added many to their number who were being saved; it doesn't mention that most backslid and returned to their worldy ways does it? I need clarification on what you mean by "presenting the gospel differently"?I'll talk more on my next post about the Church lacking in power and compassion.Murray
No matter how likely it is that he was, we have no proof.And this would be completely in keeping with the many other people whom Jesus healed during Him ministry, who almost without exception left Him when He spoke of eating His flesh and drinking His blood, in John 6... until He finally asked the twelve, in v 67, if they too, wished to leave Him. All those people, many of whom could be following only because they had been healed, stopped following.I would be inclined to agree. That is in keeping with the spirit of scripture. Think of the parable of the seed and the sower. Clearly from that we learn that one's original intention (ie, to be a follower of Christ), or one's initial blessings (like healings) is not an indication of ultimate salvation. Think of the seeds that grew up quickly and enjoyed the benefits for a short time - but when trials and temptations came, they fell away. Jesus did many miracles for the non-saved. And that still happens. I have heard of miracles happening to unbelievers - and those miracles then eventually led to serious consideration of Christ, which then later on led to serious commitment. Jesus taught us to count the cost. And that takes time. I don't think that he hands out salvation packages without the sinner going through their own process of willing surrender. And only Christ knows the heart. The Spririt blows where it wills, and we can't see it. The question itself would be a concern to evangelicals, because evangelicals base salvation primarliy on initial experience rather than the long-run proof. Diane
Brother Jeff, I believe your right and if we sat and talked am sure we have much more to agree on than dis-agree with. What you said with the following quote really speaks to me:quote:-Three years ago I was crying out to God because of these concerns in my own life, asking God to use me more. His response to me was, "How much do you want it?" I replied, "I'll do anything!" His response was, "It will cost you your life."This has been my cry as well...what does it take, how much do I need to turn my back on the world to be used of you Lord? It seems that in the past year I have made great efforts at trying to find this place. My problem is it seems that I've failed again and will never be able to untangle myself enough from this world to make a difference...to be a Paul or a Peter. Maybe my expectations are too high. Maybe I have backed off when I needed to stay the course no matter what it looks like. The big question this thread brings up is What do you have to do differently and why does it seems so hard to find the answer...I feel like this Psalmist must have felt when he wrote this:Psalm 44:23Wake up, Lord! Why are you sleeping?Get up! Don't reject us forever.Why do you hide from us?Have you forgotten our pain and trouble.We have been pushed down into the dirt,we are flat on the ground.Get up and help us.Because of your love save us.(there troubles of the day seemed to be more physical...my problem of this day is the spiritual trouble that seem to abound throughout, I think they are fair verses to apply to our or at least my frustrations)If this was not written in the Bible I would be afraid to write it...it sounds so presumptious and cocky for a human to say this to God. At the same time if God does not move then all is lost and we will continue to be overwhemed by the enemy that is before us. In the end God is so in control and we flitter around as though we better hurry or God will not get His due.also this quote-- "Signs and wonders are for today, I believe that, yet they are not the goal or thing that we need to seek." This is true--we are to seek first the kingdom of God and the rest will be added unto us. We put way to high a priority on seeking these for ourselves or even for loved ones. The real and only reason to seek them is to use the power it would bring to the Word God gives a person to further His Kingdom. The signs and wonders are but a road sign (a giant road sign) pointing to God and away from ourselves. Praise God for who He is...pray that He will bring us into being who He says we are.Blessings to you Jeff
The promises of God are Yea and Amen. They are accomplished already. What we need to pray and See is Eph 1:17-23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all. He's done it all already, but we don't walk in His Word, we walk in the words of men, our own imaginings and their teachings instead of God's.We have in our possession all that we could ever ask for in spiritual things, but our eyes are on "self" constantly.The only way to get our eyes off of self and have Jesus' Eyes, is to be totally "others minded" as He was.I don't tire of this message, because it is the Power of The Church.That the eyes of our understanding be enlightened.I posted two posts on this page Wake Up ! and I only give this, because to post it again is not possible.I pray we'll see what time we're wasting by having our eyes constantly on ourselves.Shalom.
We have in our possession all that we could ever ask for in spiritual things, but our eyes are on "self" constantly.Hi Annie,I agree completely with the sentence I've emboldened from your post. And, I 'hear' what you're saying in the next 'sentence'. But, I'd appreciate your time to go back through this thread while it is still short, and find a few quotes from the four of us, which demonstrate that we have our eyes on ourselves and not on God?I ask this because I feel there is a link, missing in what you said... so that it doesn't connect to the foregoing discussion. Maybe some of us don't believe the bold sentence. Maybe we do, but we don't know how to get it to work.Either way, unless one offers God permission to shine a light on any faulty thinking/reasoning/believing/living, then one is going to remain out of touch with the reality of 'in our possession all that we could ever ask for in spiritual things' which you are bang on the nail with, theologically speaking.This thread may, therefore, be an opportunity for some valid introspection before God in our closets.My main hope, though, was to draw us to consider that we are not following Jesus's example. We are following a tradition of men - a man-made doctrine - and are we surprised that it doesn't yeild results? Whyever should we be?
G'day,I was surprised at your first question. ha.Oh oh, you know me, once I start that sense of humor going. Fortunately we can't post our own Smilies here. But now that I'm over the initial shock of it, let me say that, it's not my job. Ha.What I really want to say is, my post was a "humankind" statement and not based on 'one or two person's inability to get their eyes off of self.' I thought the link with two more posts with it, would explain "where my head's at", as they say over here.It would be odd to say, there are those who do have their eyes on self, and mean that there are those who don't. That would be 'theologically' incorrect... because there is no such human.That is human nature and to the degree we are out of "human nature" to that degree we are free to allow Him to work 'through' us. Romans 8 speaks of walking in the Spirit ... but our hearts are deceptive, deceitful, and sneaky little critters and we cannot even know our 'own' motives, lest God Himself shine strong through revelation "why" we are saying, thinking, or doing All that we say, think or do.To walk 100% in the Spirit 24/7 would be to be just like Him ... so I can't possibly believe that any on this entire forum is "there yet", nor ever will be. We won't be "like" Him until we see Him, but that is still, what we Strive for .... to walk in the Spirit is synonomous of having our eyes off of ourselves.But again to warn, our hearts are deceitful and we do not know 'why' we do or think what we do.As your thread progressed ... the topic was changing somewhat to "us" and our ability to "heal" etc.That is what provoked my reply, as there is only one way to 'get there' and that is to be as 100% Others minded, as much as humanly possible.No one knows their "motives" for all that they think, say or do 100% of the time .... and at this point, I believe that was a slack answer ... I'd prefer to change that, because our stand should be "no confidence in the flesh" At All and say ... we Seldom know. The "world" calls it a subconscious, but The Lord does not.We all should be "theologically correct" on this, as it is His Image that we are striving toward. No one can go beyond the "theologically correct" only part and "do it" 24/7 ... if that were so, Paul and Barnabus would have never argued over John Mark and if we believe we have 'attained', then we are better than Paul.Valid introspection is only known to God, when it is actually possible to the human to do such, because even our 'introspection' is tainted with flesh.Hudson Taylor in his old age said, that even his greatest prayers were tainted with flesh ... so it is ... until we leave these earthly bodies and are in His presence and even then, we will not be Him but will be "like" Him.The souls under the Alter in Rev. 6 were crying out for revenge. Perfect, Hmmm, I don't know how that can be seen. If they had the Complete mind of Christ, even in their Heavenly setting, would they 'need' to ask ? Or if they were so much like Him that they knew what He knows, they wouldn't need to 'ask' anything.We're not to "follow Jesus' example" ... that is not quite how we'd read Romans 8 etc. on "walking in the Spirit".You said:"Maybe some of us don't believe the bold sentence. Maybe we do, but we don't know how to get it to work."Again, the reason for my post ... trying to give the answer to this, as I saw the desire for this in the posts, which is what most people who Love Jesus desire.And again, being "others minded" to the fullest extent, sacrificial degree, etc. as HE was.'That' we CAN control to a better degree than someother "Dying to Self Method". God honors even just our thought, that we want to be others minded as He was.He was, 24/7 and that is the only thing that makes us different than Him now.To think that we "know" Why we are in complete control of ourselves without some hidden motive, would be an incorrect estimation of our state.But one does not get their eyes off of themselves by keeping their eyes on themselves in 'introspection' - Paul said, he didn't even judge himself.Do we really know when we are ministering for self ? Only God in His mercy can show us when we are doing that. If we think there is no tinge of flesh (self) in our posts, actions, etc., then we are self-deceived.Still the answer is, is to be others minded. If our "intent" is so ... then God will make up the difference and be there to show when there is a mix of flesh and spirit.But even when we know that His Spirit is operating out of us in some out of the natural realm way .... even then we are tainted with flesh (self) ... if not, we would BE Him."No confidence in the flesh" ... despite what exploits we are or think we are performing. The Lord is waiting for us to get our eyes off of self and that 'may' be why He can use the foolish and weak as He does or even children ... they are silly enough to believe that He works that way. Their faith level is higher and clearer because "self" has not hindered their faith.We only lose faith when our eyes are back on self-preservation of some sort or another.As Peter walked on water but a while.I hear what you are 'saying' too and am doing my best to show, that he who has confidence in his own flesh is bound to fall ... though The Good Shepherd will pick him back up and brush the sand off and help - if we're open - to get us back on track. Or we can sit there and feel sorry for ourselves that we didn't present so beautifully ... again, that would be 'self-consumed thoughts'.And around and around it goes. When we are ready to appear the 'fool' For others ... then maybe we're on the run-way at least.I'm sure I didn't answer what you asked ... but ask on and I'll do my human best to answer.Love and hug.Annie
Dear Annie,Thanks for you lengthy reply, which is most elucidating, mainly because of the assumptions you make about what and how other people think, and, what you think they should be thinking to be 'right' in the logic within which you have worked out your own thinking. Now, don't assume, please, that I have anything against your thinking. It's just that you can't superimpose it on mine or anyone else's as if it is the template by which our processing of the Lord's life in us can be assessed.All afternoon my line has been dropping out, and reconnecting, so I am running out of time very swiftly as I have not been able to get much done and I can't answer in full right now, therefore. I hope that those who are online later and overnight may pick up on some of what you have said, to move the discussion further forward, and I will respond properly. It is likely I won't pick up everything which I didn't quite agree, but probably that's a good thing for both of us.I will leave you with one specific comment.and our ability to "heal" I would like quote to back up this, please? Because for myself... I am sure it the Lord who heals, not the believer, although I know the New Testament says that 'He gave THEM power to ...' I think this has led to a lot of confusion in the minds of Christians, because such power would be a real hot potato :-P and I don't believe a Christian can use it properly unless they are well and truly abiding in the Vine. That's the deal and that's the challenge.Possible?
dorcas wrote:Dear Annie,Thanks for you lengthy reply, which is most elucidating, mainly because of the assumptions you make about what and how other people think, and, what you think they should be thinking to be 'right' in the logic within which you have worked out your own thinking. Now, don't assume, please, that I have anything against your thinking. It's just that you can't superimpose it on mine or anyone else's as if it is the template by which our processing of the Lord's life in us can be assessed.All afternoon my line has been dropping out, and reconnecting, so I am running out of time very swiftly as I have not been able to get much done and I can't answer in full right now, therefore. I hope that those who are online later and overnight may pick up on some of what you have said, to move the discussion further forward, and I will respond properly. It is likely I won't pick up everything which I didn't quite agree, but probably that's a good thing for both of us.I will leave you with one specific comment.
Sister, it's no matter what I or you 'think' ... it is "What is Written" that matters here and if you go beyond or subtract from Scripture, then you are off.I will pray for your connection so you can stay on line.We will both be back with Scripture to back up our stands ... I pray.Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall 'they' cast out devils; 'they' shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 'They' shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; 'they' shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Annieand our ability to "heal" I would like quote to back up this, please? Because for myself... I am sure it the Lord who heals, not the believer, although I know the New Testament says that 'He gave THEM power to ...' I think this has led to a lot of confusion in the minds of Christians, because such power would be a real hot potato :-P and I don't believe a Christian can use it properly unless they are well and truly abiding in the Vine. That's the deal and that's the challenge.Possible?
It is the LORD Who heals. I think you know that I knew that. But nevertheless ... post on sis.My question back. You said "use it properly" .... what "it" are we discussing here ?
The signs and wonders are but a road sign (a giant road sign pointing to God and away from ourselves. I couldn't pass this one up. It is a brilliant statement, and a reminder to look further down the road and not get fixated on the sign. (ooo.. that hits close to home)so.... maybe it's time to move on in the discussion... Dorcas and MeAgain.... I'm not sure I follow all the ins and outs of your dialgue. But it does remind me that there are often no neat ways to unravel all the crossed wires in our brains and our communication channels. That is just another reminder that we are not neat and tidy people. Sometimes all that we can do is bring our focus back to the roadsigns, see where they are pointing and then move on. Diane
it is human nature to become preoccupied with the process.This is always a temptation in our sophisticated society that wants to figure out everything in order to have some measure of control. Is that not humanism? Or is it a reflection of an inate desire to be God (or, as gods) - the very temptation that Eve received. Surely we can acccept that what is a glorious miracle in the life of one person, may be an idol to another person, or may even become an idol later to the one who received it. Our God has always been a risk-taker. He pours out blessings on people only to find out that they begin worshipping the blessing and walk away from the blesser. That's been going on since the beginning. And I believe it is also the risk that Jesus took - even in healing the begger. Diane
We ain't neat and tidy Diane but His Word is. :-D WOW, is it ever ! Thank God HE knows what on earth and Heaven, He's talking about, or the whole universe would fall apart. (If 'we' were in control -- haaaa :)Getting somewhat silly again. Excuse please.Annie
We ain't neat and tidy Diane but His Word is.Well, his Word may be neat and tidy to Him, but it sure isn't from my side of the clouds. Now if God had only asked me to help him organize his Word, I sure would have done it in a far better... But then, there would be nothing to discuss here. Just kidding! Okay, so my 1000th post is not particularily intelligent. As I say... we're not neat and tidy...Now back to the roadsigns: God's glorious manifestation to humanity... Diane
"God's glorious manifestation to humanity..."Yeah, HIS WORD. :-D
Hi Annie,I'll begin with your last point, which countered mine.In my name shall 'they'Maybe we have two halves of the truth here. 'In my name' which is about abiding in the Vine, and the appropriating of His Name by the believer. This is not something one can step in and out of. That's not 'abiding'. Perhaps healings don't flow because Christians, (a term which should be synonymous with believers) don't believe that being in Jesus Name gives them the authority and the power? Secondly, let me apologise for throwing my unrefined response at you before dropping offline for many hours. I realise now you did qualify your post near the beginning with my post was a "humankind" statement and not based on 'one or two person's inability to get their eyes off of self.' Then you saidIt would be odd to say, there are those who do have their eyes on self, and mean that there are those who don't. That would be 'theologically' incorrect... because there is no such human.That is human nature and to the degree we are out of "human nature" to that degree we are free to allow Him to work 'through' us. And I think that's where I began to notice that I don't agree. You are saying that 'human nature' is unhelpful to God's agenda, in that we have to be 'out of' it, to be 'free to allow Him to work 'through' us'. I see a big difficulty with this statement. Are you sure that is what you really meant?It is probably better if I don't say more, until you've answered this question, if you would. I will explain why I'm not, if you are still happy with your statement.
I said..although I know the New Testament says that 'He gave THEM power to ...' I think this has led to a lot of confusion in the minds of Christians, because such power would be a real hot potato and I don't believe a Christian can use it properly unless they are well and truly abiding in the Vine. That's the deal and that's the challenge.Annie askedIt is the LORD Who heals. I think you know that I knew that.My question back. You said "use it properly" .... what "it" are we discussing here ?Annie, Is 'it' clearer now? I was wondering if we receive power in the way the disciples did...Mark 6:7, Luke 9:1, Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (KJV)Because I'd say that Pentecost changed everything even if only slightly. Jesus never told the disciples to abide in Him at that point, but, later He said 'without me you can do nothing' in John 15:5.
G'day again,I think I need to go get the Debate rules off of that old Apologetic site ... Ha.Maybe we have two halves of the truth here.That would be nice to see.You are saying that 'human nature' is unhelpful to God's agenda, in that we have to be 'out of' it, to be 'free to allow Him to work 'through' us'. I see a big difficulty with this statement. Are you sure that is what you really meant?This is a no-no Dorcas :-D .You are telling what the other person is "saying" rather than posing it first as a Question. The question at the end of the thought, does not neutralize what you've already stated as fact.Being a Romans 8 fan and understanding fully what "walking in the Spirit" is, this is when our "souls" come under the Obedience to the Spirit as Jesus made Himself subject in just that way. He was not "out of it". When we walk in the flesh, we are not in God's will ... Walking in the Spirit is the soul aligned to the Spirit in obedience and having the mind of Christ Himself. We choose which way to walk.By our own intellects or craftiness or in humble subjection and dependence on His leading, Etc.No Zombies dear. Just obedient Sheep that Know His Voice and follow of their own freewills and to the degree that they do hear, to that degree they are moving IN HIM and not 'self'.It is probably better if I don't say more, until you've answered this question, if you would. I will explain why I'm not, if you are still happy with your statement.It wasn't exactly posed as a question, not when the opening words are "You are saying ..." but more as an assumption and yes, it is probably better that you ended it there. This oughta be FUN. :-DLooking forward to this now.
Dear Annie,In the post which you were answering, I quoted you verbatim, before I told you what I thought you meant. This is called 'communication'.....ie you said 'x' ... now let me put 'x' into my own words... 'blah blah' Did 'blah blah' say what you meant by 'x'.... It didn't.... Ok, please try again before I explain why I disagree.That was a very fair proposition from me. Please don't knock it!This is what I've been taught about how to ensure that communication is successful. I am not trying to put words into your mouth. I'm telling you what I understood you were saying, from the background of my own set of preconceptions.I know we'll have to go real slow, but, as you said, it should 'be fun'... at least I acknowledge there is potential for enjoyment.
Dorcas, your second post about "it" ... I still have problems with the word "it" as in your words ... "use it properly".We don't "use" an "it". We don't "use" anything in Christ. We can "be" used, but not "use" it ... and the "it" is the Spirit of Christ. So no "using" Him. He 'uses' yielded vessels.Because I'd say that Pentecost changed everything even if only slightly. Your verses -Mark 6:7, Luke 9:1, Matthew 10:1 - were prior to Pentecost.Pentecost did not change things "only slightly".What happened to the 120 after Pentecost was beyond even what they had received After He had resurrected and "breathed on them and said receive ye the Holy Spirit" which was even After your three verses above.Your "power" verse that I think you're looking for Post-Pentecost is Mark 16:17,18. Gotta go take care of my flesh friend. Unfortunately. Ha.TTYLme
Now Annie, to answer your first answer. First I will quote your original statement for which I asked clarification. You saidto the degree we are out of "human nature" to that degree we are free to allow Him to work 'through' us. In your reply you saidBeing a Romans 8 fan and understanding fully what "walking in the Spirit" is, this is when our "souls" come under the Obedience to the Spirit as Jesus made Himself subject in just that way. He was not "out of it". When we walk in the flesh, we are not in God's will ... Walking in the Spirit is the soul aligned to the Spirit in obedience and having the mind of Christ Himself.Without wishing to be overly difficult, I can't see a reference to 'human nature' in your response.When you used the phrase 'human nature' in your first statement, did you mean 'flesh'?
That's a lot of x's there Dorcas ... I hope they're "hugs" ... even with the blah, blahs. :-)You said that you were quoting me "verbatim", but as one would pull a verse of Scripture out of context I'm afraid. For as you stated earlier, it was a "lengthy post" and had it been taken in context, with the whole, your assumption would not have come about.In the post which you were answering, I quoted you verbatim, before I told you what I thought you meant. This is called 'communication'.....I am not trying to put words into your mouth.No friend, read your words again. You did not tell me what you "thought" I meant ... You said "You are saying", there's a difference there and that 'is' putting words in another's mouth.To imply uncertainty in what the other was saying, your sentence would have been posed as a question. But it was stated as a fact of what the person believes.If you say "red green blue" to me and I come back with "you are saying 'orange, yellow, black'" then I have put words in your mouth.This would not be "successful communicating."May I ask where I was "knocking" you ?I don't see nor feel a mocking attitude right now, nor do I plan to "mock" you.I know we'll have to go real slowWhy this necessity ?Not once I go to bed and wake up again. Then we can go at any speed you'd like. Only problem is, you're normally not awake here when I am. But who knows, it may work out, if you've found it needful thus far.In the meantime. Rather than dissect my 'Lengthy' post on this previous page ... maybe read it as it was intended ... my thoughts.Oh I see I have another to answer before I can get some sleep. Bless your heart.BRB
dorcas wrote:Now Annie, to answer your first answer. First I will quote your original statement for which I asked clarification. You said
If your soul is not your 'human nature' than what pray tell is ?We are a trichotomy ... body, soul and spirit.The body has no nature, the spirit is not our human nature, (wish to God that it were), so only the soul can possess the human nature.Nite-Nite.Love you.TTYLto the degree we are out of "human nature" to that degree we are free to allow Him to work 'through' us. In your reply you saidBeing a Romans 8 fan and understanding fully what "walking in the Spirit" is, this is when our "souls" come under the Obedience to the Spirit as Jesus made Himself subject in just that way. He was not "out of it". When we walk in the flesh, we are not in God's will ... Walking in the Spirit is the soul aligned to the Spirit in obedience and having the mind of Christ Himself.Without wishing to be overly difficult, I can't see a reference to 'human nature' in your response.When you used the phrase 'human nature' in your first statement, did you mean 'flesh'?
Dear Annie,I have not returned to your original post to complete my comments on it, because I'm still trying to understand as much as possible what you meant by 'human nature'. In your last post, you have statedThe body has no nature, the spirit is not our human nature, (wish to God that it were), so only the soul can possess the human nature.'The body has no nature'. Could you please supply scripture for that?'the spirit is not our human nature'. How do you define 'the spirit'. For instance, before a person is born again, do they have a spirit? (I asked that just to be clear.)Lastly you say 'only the soul can possess the human nature'. My question is then, when you said originally (p3) That is human nature and to the degree we are out of "human nature" to that degree we are free to allow Him to work 'through' us. I'm trying to think of a way to say this .... your last answer citing the soul as our 'human nature' doesn't make sense.... that is, it doesn't make sense to me.
Quote:DorcasI have not returned to your original post to complete my comments on it, because I'm still trying to understand as much as possible what you meant by 'human nature'. In your last post, you have statedQuote:Annie --------------------------------------------------------------------------------The body has no nature, the spirit is not our human nature, (wish to God that it were), so only the soul can possess the human nature.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------'The body has no nature'. Could you please supply scripture for that?This is all very easy to understand .... the definition of "body" is ....G4983 SOMA From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave. 1) the body both of men or animals 1a) a dead body or corpse 1b) the living body 1b1) of animals 2) the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies) which word denotes the material body. Metonymically referring to the body as the external man, to which is ascribed that which strictly belongs to the person, man, individual; with a gen. of person forming a periphrasis for the person himself. In order for the body to be "a slave" ... to 'what' is it a slave.From the definition of "soma" one can see it has No Nature. It is just a body as vehicle and "earthen vessel" to carry soul and spirit and be slave to either.The trichotomy is compared to "the temple". The outter man would represent the outter court where all the activity or movement was .... or body.The soul as the "inner man" (or inner court of the temple) is that which is our 'mind/wills/desires', which makes our personality and who we are, and the spirit is where The spirit would dwell in the Holy of Holies.Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man (soul)Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man (soul)2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward (body) man perish, yet the inward man (soul) is renewed day by day. The body {soma} is only a vehicle, called in the Word our "earthen vessels." It is but a shell. The brain is the battlefield or computer that sends the signals to the body. When the soul and spirit leaves the body, the brain waves cease and the body is dead. Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, The body has no "mind of it's own". When one's brain is in a comma, their bodies feel no pain or pleasure. The soul can be likened to the "mind or heart" of a person in Biblical terms. But the body without the soul is dead. And the body does not control nor make decisions apart from the soul. The Soul or "psuche" is where we get our word for Psychology - the study of the mind. It (the psuche) is used in Act 14:2 and Heb_12:3 as "minds".Quote:Dorcas'the spirit is not our human nature'. How do you define 'the spirit'. For instance, before a person is born again, do they have a spirit? (I asked that just to be clear.)Before regeneration, the spirit is dead ... after regeneration the Spirit of the Lord inhabits the spirit of the human. The Spirit takes residence in our spirit. Our spirit is that which communicates the things of the Spirit into our spirit and then hopefully, we allow (through freewill) our souls/mind to be sensitive to that leading of the spirit within ... ( a person that is not saved, may be indwelled by 'a' spirit).1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peaceQuote:DorcasLastly you say 'only the soul can possess the human nature'. My question is then, when you said originally (p3) Quote:Annie --------------------------------------------------------------------------------That is human nature and to the degree we are out of "human nature" to that degree we are free to allow Him to work 'through' us. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I'm trying to think of a way to say this .... your last answer citing the soul as our 'human nature' doesn't make sense.... that is, it doesn't make sense to me.To word my quote better, to the degree that we have 'submitted' our souls to the will or leading of the spirit and are now "walking in the spirit" ... we are not walking after the dictates of our own human nature,{will, desires, etc.} but the will of the spirit. Our souls - which contains "our wills" we submit or subject to and be obedient to the will of the Spirit ... IF we allow. If we lean on the Spirit to lead and are submissive to His leadings.The Holy Spirit indwells our spirit, so the spirit is not our Human nature.The body has no movement or life of it's own without the soul.So our human nature that wars against the spirit is our soul.The emnity between the soul and spirit where The Lord's spirit now dwells is seen in these verses. Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spiritRom 8:4,5 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. The word for "flesh" here, is the operation of the soul. Not the body alone or the spirit.Rom 8:8.9a So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. This is the body" which is called 'soma', but this 'flesh' is called 'sarx' ... this same word 'sarx' is also used as carnal, Rom_8:7, Heb_9:10 and carnally Rom_8:6The 'workings' of the soul {sarx} or self or mind or will, is called "flesh or carnal", When it is not in submission to the spirit.G4561 sarx human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]). "Gal 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (this is "sarx" Not soma or "body") For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." So the word for flesh is also used elsewhere for carnal - and carnality is the workings of the soul. The working out of the soul is our human nature and the spirit is His nature and they are at war. When the mind decides it wants to go out and sin with their body, or move independent of the spirit, this working is called flesh. Again, the body has no power without the workings of the soul. Can a body have a mind of it's own ? No. And can a body act 'carnally' without the soul/mind/flesh causing it to act out so ?If someone puts "human nature" as "'flesh' being the 'body' initiating" .... how can the body alone get into heresies, envyings, wrath, strife, emulations, witchcraft, etc., without the "soul/mind" ? So the "flesh" is the workings of the soul/mind/self/human nature and not God's Nature, which His Spirit in ours and if we "will" to walk in the Spirit we will not chose to "walk in the flesh" (Rom 8)Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Dear Annie,Thank you for taking so much time to set out the above exposition, which was essential for me to learn a little more New Testament Greek, :-) and understand the way you worded your thinking.With reference to the post on which I was commenting, I did read what I quoted in context, but didn't think it necessary to quote more to further the discussion on how one would (according to you), have to be 'out' of one's 'human nature' in order to be obedient to the Spirit. In fact, in the light of what you've explained above, you don't quite believe that either....I don't think it's helpful to describe humans as 'a trichotomy'. That 'chotomy' bit, meaning 'cut' interferes with the reality that we are, in fact, totally integrated. Even tripartite as with Trinity, suggests greater separation than there is.You said ( a person that is not saved, may be indwelled by 'a' spirit).I'm not disputing this, but, in the same way as you had said after regeneration the Spirit of the Lord inhabits the spirit of the human. The Spirit takes residence in our spirit. for the sake of those reading, would you be willing to re-define what you're getting at?... having already saidBefore regeneration, the spirit is dead I don't think you can justify 'the spirit is dead' scripturally; there are too many references to the 'spirit' of man, prior to the possibility of regeneration.Not only that, but the body is lifeless without a spirit, is it not? And unless our physical body is alive and working, there is no brain to support the soul, or manage its humours.Lastly, I have not thought either of us was addressing this discussion with a 'mocking' attitude. When I used the word 'knock', it was in the vein of 'dis' (short for 'disrespect' - street language), which is in common usage over here. Please accept my apology if it came over as anything else.
I don't think it's helpful to describe humans as 'a trichotomy'. That 'chotomy' bit, meaning 'cut' interferes with the reality that we are, in fact, totally integrated. Even tripartite as with Trinity, suggests greater separation than there is.The Trinity is a and the only Perfect 3 in one.Humans on the other hand are not of One Mind.They can be governed by body, soul or spirit, if not saved or carnal.The body, soul and spirit are not in perfect Unity as the Triune Godhead is.Symantics matter little in this.As it matters little if one chooses be called to be a "Trinitarian". Unless, one chooses debate over our english language and verbology, rather than come aside one another in the minors and stand together in the Majors.Before the Lord "quickens" us, we are "spiritually" dead.The Lord is Spirit and has communion with the Spirit of man. It is through our Spirits that He speaks and if we are receptive to the Spirit, then our souls are submitted to or dependent on learning that Voice within our own Holy of Holies within, where The Lord's Spirit resides.If it is our 'spirit' that is Alive now onto Christ, then you would have to determine what these verses mean and what spiritually dead means.Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespassesRev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Edited to add Eph 2:6 and the rest of Rev. 3 (sorry)
Annie,I've been musing over the difference between 'spirit' in the Old Testament and the verses you quote which clearly state the spirit is dead. It seems the best place to understand this, is (YLT) Genesis 3:22 And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' -- 23 Jehovah God sendeth him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken; 24 yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life. 1 Peter 2:21 for to this ye were called, because Christ also did suffer for you, leaving to you an example, that ye may follow his steps, 22 who did not commit sin, nor was guile found in his mouth, 23 who being reviled--was not reviling again, suffering--was not threatening, and was committing himself to Him who is judging righteously, 24 who our sins himself did bear in his body, upon the tree, that to the sins having died, to the righteousness we may live; by whose stripes ye were healed, 25 for ye were as sheep going astray, but ye turned back now to the shepherd and overseer of your souls.