Romans 8:18-39 Part A

Now again, we thank everyone for coming along and we hope we'll have a profitable time together as we did in the previous day. Now you likely know we're going to be in Romans chapter 8 again and this time we're going to read from verse number 18. Romans 8 and verse number 18.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature or creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was not subject, not made subject to vanity, was made subject to vanity not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope.

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain until now, together until now. And not only they but ourselves also which have the first fruits of the spirit.

Even we ourselves groan within ourselves waiting for the adoption to wit the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope but hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth why doth he yet hope for.

But if we hope for that which we see not then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought but the spirit himself make an intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the spirit because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of a son that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate them he also called and whom he called them he also justified. And whom he justified them he also glorified. What shall what shall we say then to these things? If God before us who can be against us? He that spared not his own son but delivered him up for us all how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? Is it God that justifieth? Who is he that condemneth? Is it Christ that died yea rather that is risen again who is even at the right hand of God who also maketh intercession for us? Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword as it is written? For thy sake we are killed all the day long.

We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay in all things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now we know that God always blesses the reading of his precious word. Now I don't think I need to go into a lot of background as far as the book is concerned. If you were here yesterday you would have known that but some were not here so we'll just take a few minutes and point out some things that we think would be very important.

The main subject of course you know in the book of Romans is justification or righteousness. How shall a man be just before God was a question of Job many years ago and here's the answer in the book of Romans. So righteousness is one of the main points in chapters one and two.

I think we could put this little label across, righteousness required. For after the introduction we find that man has gotten farther and farther away from God so righteousness is required. When we come to chapter three it's righteousness revealed and God has come in in this chapter and speaks of now what we know where are we verse 21 but now the righteousness of God apart from the law is manifest or revealed so we have righteousness revealed and then we have righteousness reckoned in chapter four had that brought before us I think about Abraham what shall we say then that Abraham our father as pertaining to the flesh has found for if Abraham were justified by works he had whereof to glory but not before God for what saith the scriptures Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him a righteousness.

So I read there how a person can be reckoned righteous before God and not only Abraham who believed God way before the law was given but even we remind ourselves of David who said blessed is the man whose iniquity is forgiven whose sins are covered blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sins and then in chapter five we have righteousness received therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ and then in the chapters that we have been considering mostly at least six to eight we have righteousness realized and then the chapters nine to eleven that are sort of a parenthesis you know about the nation of Israel and chapter nine we have Israel in the past chapter ten in the present chapter eleven in the future so there we have righteousness rejected the nation rejected the righteousness which is of God and tried to establish their own righteousness and then there's righteousness reproduced in the last chapters twelve to chapter sixteen. Now as far as these three chapters are concerned I when I think of chapter six and I'm not I don't want to leave out the last half of chapter five but I'm speaking of chapter six basically the question can be asked does salvation by faith alone permit or encourage sinful living and we're reminded that definitely not and then in chapter seven does the gospel tell us to keep the law in order to lead a holy life and of course we found out that that's an impossible thing and the answer is no. When we come to chapter eight how can I live a holy life how can I live for God and the personal pronouns we're reminded of the previous chapter disappear and the holy spirit becomes prominent or another way I like to look at it I don't know if this would help or not but in chapter six I think of Peter walking in the water everything seems to be fine the old man has been dealt with all that was and Adam is gone and now things seem to be going along really fine but then when we come to chapter seven I think of Peter sinking and he's sinking and he doesn't he not able to do anything but the answer of course was to get his eye on the Lord and you have him getting his eye on the Lord and then the Lord lifts him up out of the water.

Now as far as the chapter itself is concerned there's a few things we can say about it just an opening I think it's Mr. J.M. Davies in his book called the Christian Statute of Liberty he brings out that in verses 1 to 11 we have the holy spirit in relation to our conduct and he links these scriptures with Ezekiel 47. We remember the water is coming out from the threshold of the temple and according to our conduct and he says that's the ankles the water that came up to the ankles. Verses 12 to 17 we have the spirit in relation to communion where you have the water coming up to the knees and of course his thought is would have you bow down on our knees to enjoy communion with the Lord.

18 to 25 the spirit in relation to conflict and that's the loins we need to have our loins girt that's 47 Ezekiel and chapter 4 and then we have 26 to 30 the spirit in relation to confidence and we have those deep waters waters to swim in. As well as that we were reminded at the beginning of the reading by our brother Skates his reading is no condemnation if the condemnation of sin brought before us at the beginning you have the expectation verse 18 of the creation and you also have the expectation of the Christian verse 23 you have the intercession of the spirit then in 26 and you have confirmation to the son in verse 28 all God's dealings with us are in view that we might be conformed to the image of his son. And then the last part would be the celebration I think of God's love the first part of the chapter sanctification then we come to glorification then we come to the celebration of God's love and then that last verse is from 31 to the end we have first of all the reality of our security wonderful thing to be saved greater thing to be saved and really know it and be really sure and then we have the eternity of our security from verse 20 verse 35 to the end so that's all I need to say right now we'll be glad of any help that we can get from our brethren if you have questions try and speak up and if we can we'll repeat the question and some of the brethren here of course will try to answer it for you so we're going to start then in verse number 18 and I think it's more orderly always to just try and go verse by verse if you jump a little bit forward we won't be too hard on you but or if you go back but we'll try to keep it going that's my my job I don't know all the answers but I know I have to keep it going so we end up on on time so Romans 8 and we'll commence at verse number 18 there's a definite connection of course we can see with the previous part that our brothers Gates handled for us and in verse number 17 if children then heirs heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ if so be that we suffer with him that we may be also glorified together so not only are we co-heirs that's important to know that but co-sufferers and that's what brings us into this little section for I reckon the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall reveal or which is about to be revealed in us so he's comparing the comparing the sufferings of this present time with future glory he also makes reference to that doesn't he to the Corinthians in relation to this light affliction which is but for a moment worketh in us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory yes we have been considering in a previous reading of course some very important truths regarding ourselves and if we're going to live for God and I think that God is looking at these previous verses that it should be true of each one of us but there's going to be opposition there's always opposition for anyone that's going to live for God comes from different quarters today maybe than it did then but he's saying you'll be encouraged keep on going on for God some are dropping out of the race today but there's glory that comes the glory shines before me and that should keep us going we were talking a little bit about Joseph during the interval what was it that kept Joseph going it was the dreams that he had he knew they were going to be fulfilled we're not dependent on dreams but we have the word of God and God says it so we can depend on it so no matter what circumstances we're in and believers in other lands are in much worse circumstances than many of us but still what do we do we we take courage because we're heading for the glory this is not a glory that's revealed to us that's a glory that's revealed in us why is he saying that here what the word for in isn't it toward us glory toward us I think it's waiting for the the manifestation of the glory in the in the church when Christ comes back with the church isn't it so it's going to be seen we're going to share in that glory that he acquired on the cross at Calvary going to be a wonderful day isn't it and we're looking forward to it sometimes we look forward to the rapture and all we can think about is we're going to have no aches or pains or pills or anything something far greater than that to look forward to the day when the Lord Jesus is going to be seen in all his glory and the marvel is that our brother has said we're going to be with him and share with him in that day so it'll be like second Thessalonians 1 he will be admired in all them that believe in that day the glory that's seen in us yeah we're going to share in the glory but it's altogether different from what we experience here in the earth I mean as the bride of Christ we go to a wedding and everybody I know I've been married twice and I don't ever hear anybody saying anything about the groom how wonderful he was but that was in your case though that's in your it was all the bride you know but the day is coming when it's a groom that's going to be the object we're just going to be so happy to be with him and share with him in that day did did you make any specific mentions that I missed this as to what the sufferings are here bill is this the sufferings of your pills and pains or is what suffering is this no I think it would be suffering more for the conditions that are in the world at least that's what it's leading into isn't it yeah the whole creation uh growneth but there would be persecution what would you say yeah I'm having trouble with that it does say we suffer with him in verse 17 so I assume that it's the same kind of thing here and yet it branches out into a whole creation so I think it's that's where it starts is we are going to suffer because we are now as he is in the world so as Christians we are out of our element and there's an aspect of suffering just because we are Christians in a very ungodly realm yeah but then it does link with the sympathy towards the whole groaning creation and so I think we can widen it out as as it progresses here yeah as part of the groaning creation part of the old creation yet in our bodies there's the afflictions of the body and whatnot but then the true believer has got a spiritual mindset we learn further up and he's in a very wrong world that's hostile to God so there's the pressure of that upon us at the spirit level so then could we say that joint suffering with Christ is that the world hates our confession of Christ we're linked with him and the world doesn't hate our good works but the fact that we are linked with Christ we're heirs with him we're looking forward to that day we're linked with him and the glory it's coming but now we're linked with him in the suffering so I suppose there's nothing wrong with widening it out a bit if we do that we won't lose anything anyhow go ahead suffering is a hallmark of the believer Philippians not only is it given unto you to believe but they suffer for his sake Timothy if we suffer with him we're in with him question in what way are we suffering today well uh maybe we're not if we were better Christians would suffer more but uh the fact that we're linked with him the servant's not great in his master there's something wrong if the world likes us and promotes uh Christians in the world isn't there what were you thinking about Duncan well we're not suffering by virtue of the fact being physically abused thrown in prison or anything like that but I spent most of my life in the workforce and you're not socially acceptable you're there you're promoted so high but they don't want you any further because there's a social side to upper management you don't be in it they don't want a young girl without paint and all the rest of it sitting at the receptionist desk they want someday that's using the world that the world's going to find appealing so there are there are many ways in which we suffer other than being thrown in prison and and other things so I do think the Christian suffers if you're bearing a testimony at all I appreciate the bridge I think Bruce gave us the bridge we suffer because Christ is rejected in a world that rejects Christ it's not only the society that's affected by that the whole environment is affected by that so the fact that Christ is not on the throne is results in the the most wide scope of a groaning creation in fact if you go back to the problem that's posed oh wretched man that I am who shall be who shall deliver me from the body of this death that that's really going to be answered right down through the chapter the problem is not only the mind that's where the problem begins with man and that's the first section of the chapter but the problem is the mind and the body that expresses that that's the second section of the chapter but that's not the whole problem the problem is the widest possible problem everything of God's creation has been affected by sin and in order to remedy the problem of the body of sin for me God's going to remedy the whole problem and God shall be all in all so it has to go to the extent of a whole primarily and basically have to do with my confession of Christ Peter said if I suffer as a Christian like the story has been told the young man logging camp and work but then they come back out and ask him how he did as a Christian so they never found out yeah I mean that's primarily yeah there are many reasons why the Lord's people suffer that's a big subject some because not discerning the Lord's body the man in James because he was ill in Hebrews it's a part of our training isn't it to suffer if we don't suffer we're not his and in first Peter I think you've quoted there it's testimonial suffering suffering just because we're part of the testimony because we're linked with Christ and glory I'm sorry well I'm just going to follow it down in the passage okay there is a co-witness the spirit of God is witnessing and our spirit are witnessing and that witnessing is likeness to Christ have a father because we have that likeness to Christ now the degree of the expression of that's not the issue I don't think we have that likeness to Christ therefore we are linked with him in his glory and we are linked with him in suffering in a rejected world so that to me merges the whole passage together right down to where we are good and the glory which shall be revealed in us as to the timing of that it's not us going into heaven at the rapture but rather at the end of the tribulation coming out with Christ when he's manifested right that's right exactly that takes us into the next verse for the earnest expectation of the creature or the creation waited for the manifestation or the revelation of the sons of God that's going to be seen when we come out with Christ is going to be a tremendous change in in creation when Christ reigns now as far as the creation groaning do we limit that in any way or as the creatures are involved would it be the animal creation birds and so on and of course the very land itself it's got to be figurative in the sense that the whole it's pictured as a birth that's anticipated and all the pains that go for that birth travailing yeah so it's got to be a figure but I think you see the evidence of that even I don't want to be too maybe I'm wrong here but the shifting of tectonic plates and all that whole part of it is a groaning creation it's not right things are out of joint and we're seeing the results of that that's in the geological area but go into the biological area and you still have you know the the fear and predatory character of animals and so on all of that is a part of the groaning creation yeah that wasn't the the the predatory and the animals fear of man wasn't there in the garden of eden man had control and dominion over the animals take it that that fear came in at the flood or after the flood but evidently during the millennium that's gone the little child shall lead them and so on playing the whole of the cockatrice and right so there's going to be a change even in the lower creation so what what is the why is the connection made here verse 18 or verse 19 to verse 20 why is the creation longing with such earnestness for the manifestation of the sons of god well isn't that because of the conditions that will exist when that happens what did you have in your mind well i'm just linking it to the principle of headship again going right back to chapter 5 and i mean we could have i mean it would have been as understandable in one sense if if it had been just saying waiting for the manifestation of christ because it's it's due to him that all of it will be accomplished but it's like saying that we are given the priority in the deliverance and it's when we are when we are delivered and we are manifested in all the liberty of the glory of the sons of god with christ then the rest of the creation knows we're next we're part of it because of adam and under him and christ and under him so the creation fell uh not because of anything they themselves or it itself did but because adam as a head failed i think that's we go along with that okay and uh it brings to mind the lord himself when he was here how he had control over the beasts of the field and the foul of the air and the fish of the sea but that's going to be seen in all its fullness and the the marvel is that we're going to be with him just as adam had an eve so the lord will have his bride now you're going back to to adam when you're when you have in verse 20 the creature was made subject to vanity because it was all under a man and because the man failed then he fell god says therefore the whole creation must be affected because it's all under him and so the first statement that's here is the futility of creation it wasn't by the will of creation but it was subject to futility but god had in mind allowing that or or actually decreeing that because he had hope and view so we're learning little by little it's it's hope in verse 21 it's the liberty of the glory of the children of god verse 22 and it's the birth pains until finally you have the the redemption of the body and all the fullness of that redemption so so this goes back to really adam and the earth was cursed for adam's sake and it's been groaning since that time and it goes beyond just the mere dirt right right so so who is referred to at the end of verse 20 by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope is that adam is it god is it christ it's not adam i'll give you that part and it wouldn't be certain he doesn't have that kind of power so it must have been god yeah i think what we could say is that adam is the moral cause of it but god is the governmental cause because of because of the moral failure of the head god governmentally made his whole dominion under bondage right but god wasn't finished with it that's right he had hope god did it in hope of the new man in fact what what all the consequence of adam's sin is related to hope the some who has it quoted in prayer this morning guarding the way god was preserving from that point no disarray that will get men to the desired goal of god god will have an ordered way to bring men to that goal through christ and therefore all the all the results of adam's sin are all with a view to the outcome of the glory of god so i think this does touch on a important point and not to be controversial at all but but there has been teaching given that through satan's fall the whole creation fell and and linking the whole creation's fall to act to satan i i don't see that in the scriptures i see that it is man's unique relationship between god and the creation he is spirit soul and body and it is in that position of headship of administration of god's glory in the in in his kingdom that he fell and so it's through man was the fall through man is the deliverance i think that you said this but i'm maybe i'm repeating sorry but that may be one reason why it's the liberty or the manifestation of the glory of the sons of god of god because it is not only christ himself but it is man that lost and it will be recovered man redeemed and exalted man not only christ himself but those that belong to christ so it's how you know the more we grasp of the the fine details if we can of the purpose of god everything works just absolutely perfectly so i'm just going to say god doesn't give things up because they don't work out right but god is going to bring in something better even if you look at the old testament priesthood and so he doesn't just abolish that he brings in a different priesthood doesn't he so everything's uh according to god's will and that's what we we're hoping for that time and that's a certain hope it's not that we're wondering hoping that they're going to come or not but we know it will avert chapter 15 is the god of hope fill you with all joy and peace and believing that ye ye may abound in hope through the power of the holy spirit so again it's for the spirit of god within us working within us we share in that expectation that is god sees the god of hope what do we understand by the phrase subject to vanity what verse are we in now 20 and 20 for the creature was made subject to vanity usually i'm not sure just what this word is but it's emptiness futility futility it's the futility frustration that that there is this endless cycle of life health death and and it just goes around the whole the whole creation is subject to this going nowhere promising i like i'm sorry i love the i love the colors of the autumn leaves it almost seems like it's the crest of nature's beauty but it's just actually the the forerunner of its death yeah so it rises to its crest and down again i'd rather spring is this by reason of the fall yes because it wasn't god's original creation it was never god's intent but it was by reason of him who subjected the same in hope so this is the created by the fall the total hopelessness yeah the failure to be able to the failure to be able to achieve its intended glory purpose and so on yeah so so things aren't improving in the world are they people try to tell us they are but we can't expect improvement until until that day and things are going to get worse the law of entropy is in full domination actually i think that the subject of vanity has now expanded the next verse the bondage of corruption which i think is what you're talking about the second law of thermodynamics in regard to the creation groaning is because of sin but as the heart of man waxes worse and worse as we've been just bringing out things are not going to get better because it'll get worse as creation's groaning increase oh yeah well i know that our groaning will increase yeah you know i don't know if the creation will be changed any will be any worse to the tribulation than it is now but we do have natural catastrophes there but you have natural catastrophes that seem to accelerate there but i'm not sure that how to answer john's question are we not seeing though in our world i'm thinking about diseases for example that were unknown a generation or two ago and and now they're cropping up i remember a doctor a friend of mine he said it's frustrating to be a doctor just when we think we've overcome one of man's scourges something 10 times deadlier comes along does that answer or is that the answer to the question you ask you can bring in environmental problems here too if you want to we can get on to those that is all the result of man's greed man's yeah and really really i think we know even genetically there's an accumulating deterioration genetically and so it's it's just going to multiply multiply the complications of corrupting of the whole creation so we come then where are we 21 because the creature or creation itself shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption it it looks instinctively could you say yeah not sure if that's the right word but we look intelligently we know what's going to take place the creature doesn't know but yet it's waiting for a change isn't it it almost it seems to be saying there's got to be something better than this yeah this can't be the end surely this is not what we were made for yeah we don't we maybe don't see a lot of this but it's all around us creatures going after creatures have you ever go to africa some beautiful animals but my the day comes when the lioness goes after the zebra and so on and and of course it's going to be great i don't what how much do they know of this but there's somehow there's a groaning creation it's figurative or whatever but they're all looking forward to that time when there's going to be a they're going to revert back isn't it to the adamic condition and even farther where sin will never enter in it's like creation is crying who shall deliver me from the body of this death yeah and the bondage of corruption that's right but the answer is the same isn't it yeah through jesus christ our lord so it says in verse 22 we know that the whole creation groaneth travaileth and pain together until now it was true then it's much more true now and it's interesting isn't it that you would more naturally expect that this would be death pangs you know because it's it's all bondage it's all futility it's it's despair and yet it's not and i mean it's no pleasant thing to be in the room of death but in the same hospital you can have a few rooms down or a few floors down and you'll have lots of agony as well but it has a totally different meaning because it's life that is being brought forth so it's it's an amazing thing to contemplate this that it's as if creation never really got going before it was plunged into this futility and so there's such a longing and anticipation involved and of course groaning you only groan either because you are in pain that you're suffering or knowing that it could be so much better so it's it's expressing a contrast isn't it so we shouldn't be settling down in this world should we something wrong if we can settle down in the world we're looking for something far better and while the creature may know something about it it's hard to understand just how it would happen but when it comes to us we can understand that so it says in verse 23 and not only they the creation but ourselves also which have the first fruits of the first fruit of the spirit so we're indwelt by the holy spirit and you could link that couldn't you who's the earnest of the inheritance to the redemption of the purchase possession we're we're we're waiting for that redemption and its fullness my father's grave my mother's grave in ireland it just says one word says your name that's redeemed they have been redeemed but they're going to be redeemed in the future and when you put the body in the earth of a believer like they were of course you're waiting for that day of course for them it will be the rapture first but but it's a we're indwelt by the holy spirit but we're going to enjoy things we can enjoy them now the streams on earth i've tasted but we're looking forward to another time when things are going to be changed verse 23 says even we ourselves grown within ourselves second corinthians five and verse four says for we that are in this tabernacle due throne the natural sentiment is the moment that this is would be a spiritual sentiment i think maybe just if we put this complexion on on all our troubles okay you've got your gray hairs if you got them and you've got the aches and the pains eventually and you've got death that interrupts young life and old life well the reaction of the christian is this there must be a better world than this we long for something different something better because we know it's coming and i think maybe we get loosened from this world and our eye fixed on another world it's not pie in the sky it's our groaning in anticipation there's something else coming it's not not in words most of us could tell what our aches and pains are but there's a whole accumulation is that what a good word could say that cause the whole thing mind as you say something better is coming yeah i mean we live in a way we get news too often so and so sick so and so terminally ill that's tragedy okay and it does break our hearts but on the other hand it makes us long to be away from this world to what god has in mind eventually i can't think of a better place to ask a question i've had for a long time than here will we as the redeemed enjoy and experience this earth this creation when it's no longer cursed when it's redeemed you mean will we be here on earth not exactly that no yeah we'll certainly appreciate it what's that we'll certainly appreciate the earth in that day see i think that like even in ephesians while some ways you can look at the believers in the inheritance yet there is an inheritance the world we're going to reign over the world aren't we with christ so we've got to have a appreciation of it and what it will be in that day what else were you thinking about no i just i'm just curious about i mean you work in agriculture you see the groaning and you experience the groaning and and the chemical companies make fortunes selling things to keep things from competing on the same ground and there's not going to be the competition there because that uh ragweed is going to do whatever it was really created to do or and and everything is going to be in order and do what it's supposed to do we're going to see apples that won't look like that and i mean i think we're going to see it the way it was meant to be the way it was created and i just hope that we get to see them i don't i don't think even if we're not going to be allowed to come back to earth if we'll just allow that for the moment okay because that's not really the central issue if god rejoices over it we will rejoice over it and so we will have a full appreciation of whatever the result is but i might just add this because it's not in the chapter but actually what takes place in the millennial age is really not the complete reversal no there will still be elements of of sin and and difficulty does that yeah the consequences will still be reaped the new heavens and the new earth we will fully enjoy you're not going to keep me from coming down to earth and in that area and we'll fully enjoy whatever the outcome is in a new heaven in a new earth that's what i was going to say you may not get to farm in the millennium but you may want to farm you may you may be able to enjoy your your vineyard in the in the eternal yeah you won't have your job then i know you'll have lots of time to enjoy oh there are no sick animals you don't think the lord's going to give him the job of birthing cows in the millennium never mind sorry that's a distraction well he won't have to go out during the night anyhow they won't need help then yeah really they won't need help what about the first fruit of the spirit here the first fruits of the spirit i mean that seems to me that must be a thrilling expression is the first fruit the the weakest part of the fruit is not it's not the best kind no it's a promise of what's coming it's a promise of what's coming but it's up to standard of what's coming to in some ways it's the best the first fruit and in some ways i think what we're learning is this we have not been shortchanged in any sense we have at the present moment the spirit of god and all the fullness of the blessing that that presents we we need to have an increase in our wonder at what god has done and if we remember that christ is the first fruits of resurrection he's the first part of that great harvest so again it is implying that we are always in the first priority of blessing so in whatever realm of god's desire to bless we are actually in the very first of it to be experienced so we already have the spirit of god we have the first fruits of the blessing of the new creation now that's not the flesh within us and all the trouble but that is the spirit of god the new man the inward man that is the first fruit the guarantee that god is going to complete from within us to the vastness of creation marvelous so it is linked with in their verse of course with the redemption of the body whether fully accomplished redemption rid of spirit soul and body in the future we we're waiting for the adoption yeah but in verse 15 you have received the spirit of adoption so in what sense are the sons of god or the children of god or the first fruit of the spirit waiting for the adoption i think the first fruit is in contrast with a complete thing one will be sons or of god and completeness in that day yeah actually i somebody said this recently and i thought i can't be right but he was and i was wrong adoption actually is a future event we have the spirit of adoption and we have been brought into the family with the certainty of the outcome being the display of what we are and all our dignity in christ so the full ramifications of the adoption will not be realized until we are manifested as sons of god in the liberty of the glory of the son we are the sons of god we are it's going to be manifested the manifestation of it is the full outcome of the adoption yeah are we not speaking of the time when our bodies have been changed we have the eternal bodies yeah yeah it's when we're going to stop groaning yeah yeah isn't it the body the body redeemed the manifestation of the glory of the sons of god and so on no more pain it is it's already redeemed yes but it's not yet manifested as a redeemed body it's it's not delivered like that there's two aspects of redemption redeemed by blood but not by power like that would be the difference we would say yeah yeah isn't the rest of it comes apolatrosis apple away from and is this like with verse 19 the manifestation is this the same manifestation yes i think that's right so we're into a millennial scene yes and it's we're going to not only see the display of his glory but you know i always like the lord in in john 17 he says i'm glorified in them with the disciples and he's going to be glorified in us and we will see his glory and then we'll no longer have this corruption of our bodies it will be completely done away with we'll be in the perfection of the manhood that are in christ yeah and we'll no longer have the drag of what still belongs to the old creation upon our spiritual abilities and enjoyment all of that influence and drag will be will be released from so that's what that's how we will be it'll be the full sonship you think in that day we'll a bit better won't be any less anyhow i don't i don't don't want us to take away from this however that uh there's no value to what we learn in the scriptures now because we're all going to have uh einstein minds and the eternal state we will take what we have gleaned of the word what we know of god let's just put it that way what we know of god we will take with us yeah we will know more of them eternally with an increased capacity and what's wrong will be corrected what's wrong in your mind what's wrong our perception today of the scripture yeah what what's wrong in your perception yes whatever like you will agree with me not there oh yeah no question now well just to keep going the first fruit the guarantee of a future or a full deliverance but we can live in the good of that now when we come to 24 for we are saved by hope and hope i think is the idea of of trust maybe and but hope that is not seen there's a great change that's going to this but this is a certainty of the change that's about to come for what a man seeketh why doth he yet what a man seeth rather why doth he yet hope for but if we hope for that which we see not then do we with patience wait for it uh i noticed that mr newbery points out for we are saved to the hope and i take it then that that means all that we are expecting we're speaking about our expectations now when we have come into that we will have been saved to that it's not the salvation of our souls no well and it's based on the word so we can depend upon it and we patiently hope for that time and we await that time when there will be no groans and it'll be that maturity so the the nature of our salvation is we haven't got the full possession or the realization of all that's involved in it at one time that's right there's an element of hope in it in that our bodies will be touched in that coming day that will be included in the redemption yeah peter peter touches that day in first peter one where we the salvation of the soul and so on but then there's an inheritance reserved in heaven for us who are kept by his power it's saved or preserved for us but preserved by his power and we're being saved day by day in fact in fact verse 12 or verse 13 i think this is really rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of jesus christ and that's what this is speaking of that i think we need to say that the way we use hope in everyday conversation is not a scriptural concept of hope uh when we speak about i hope so we're talking about something we would like but it's not a certainty but when we speak about hope in the context of the scriptures here it's a certainty we have not yet uh arrived at that's good and we know there are younger people here and we should never forget them the sure and certain hope of the resurrection is something that's sure chapter 4 abraham against hope believed in hope against against that which was certain from the natural point of view he believed in that which was certain from god's point of view so shall thy seat be god had said it it was going to be he believed in hope that's right i'm going back a little bit because i'm not positive that we resolve the newberry rendering but i think that the newberry rendering is in keeping with the fact that this is a date of it we're saved unto hope i think that's the idea so whether you talk about the salvation of our souls or the broadest aspect of the whole entirety of salvation god has saved us with a view to what will be in the future the certainty of what he will accomplish and that's what we're looking at here actually we can't do without getting finally to the fact that god by decree has pronounced us glorified it's absolutely certain that this is going to take place and nothing can change that certainty i'm anticipating the last section but that's that's where that's where the whole flow of thought is going all right uh it's there's suffering and there's a whole universe that's got to be affected but that universe will be affected when the fullness of our salvation comes and so that fullness that glorification is absolutely certain by the decree of god yeah mr darby mr darby mr newberry gives a dual it's to the hope or in hope mr darby uses in hope so our salvation is a hope that will be realized it's not a hope with any uncertainty it's a hope that is sure it's fixed the writings on the wall it's all there i i had i was wondering why do we not bring more of this into our worship as though it just is all about us what about the creation and the glory that god gets from it we're kind of narrow-minded sometimes when it comes to uh to that's what he's done for me we're only a little part thank god we are apart it took all of christ to take care all to take care of one of your sins yeah but all of christ has not only taken care of all of your sins and all of us but all of god's purpose and the full suite isn't it yeah yeah well we might as well get on to verse number 26 he says likewise or and likewise the spirit the holy spirit also helpeth or jointly helpeth mr newby says in the margin our infirmities for we know not what we should pray for as we ought but the spirit himself i'm putting in the personal pronoun himself uh maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered isn't this infirmities or infirmity bill the widest sense of living in a body of this death that the whole outcome of death the whole problem of a world that's out of joint with god it's that infirmity just it's this is not the way it's to be so you're saying it's not some physical personal physical infirmity yeah i think that's probably involved in it but that's not way beyond that yeah yeah but whatever it is it's hindering us from praying as we ought so it's our our weakness as humans to fully grasp divine purpose divine purpose all that's involved in god's purpose i mean with limited capacity mentally we we can't think fully the way god thinks we we are infirm wait would we perhaps be praying out of the mind of god when we're praying for example for god to heal someone that's possible well is that what's here i don't think that's just here it's just our ignorance and inability and just as groaning we haven't the words to express i think creation you've already said creation doesn't really fully grasp what is that that it is groaning or what is groaning for but the same is true of us there is that innate sense within us and an intelligent sense as you've used but there is something within us beyond what we are able to express of longings for for the fulfillment of god's purpose and the spirit of god is the source of that within us the spirit of god is is moving within us not only to create that but to express it before god and then he expresses that yeah so are you going with us on those very well well i think it's a very this is to me one of the most precious things to think about we're familiar with the groaning of the savior in gethsemane the intensity the extreme anguish and intensity but here we have the spirit of god within us he has joined his help to us and even though he's omnipotent and he could change us instantly into glory it's as if he's just yearning over us and longing and groaning over us to bring us into the sonship the full sonship that that he is you know mastering that's his great ministry to us and and so we are here in our in our feebleness in our limitations and in our limiting such circumstances and everything else about us and and yet we have this powerful friend who is supporting us sustaining us and and yearning so intensely so i mean this is this should be thrilling to us that even when we don't know what to pray for we don't know how we don't know what is best we don't know what to ask for we have one right right intimately connected to us who is interceding with god for our for on our behalf and god knows that mind and works in a in harmony with it so even in prayer whenever language fails us you know and we can't express fully what that burden is even