Reply to Conditional Time Salvation by 517

Reply to Conditional Time Salvation by 517 SEE PBtop: Reply to Conditional Time Salvation by 516

Having read a bit on the subject I have heard what seem to be both biblical and unbiblical explainations of "conditional time salvation." On the biblical side, I have read people advocating the simple truth that God is true to his promises and full of mercy toward the repentant, i.e. the example of Ninevah given in the email I am responding to. On the unbiblical side, I have heard explainations that seem to do a number of things:

1. Advocate a works based time salvation.

2. Undermine God’s all-encompasing predetermination of all things.[i]

3. Create a semi-arminian theology that aknowledges predestination, grace, and God’s sovereignty in our eternal salvation, but denies predestination, grace, and God’s sovereignty in our temporal salvation.[ii] This "conditional time salvation" seems to be a new thing among primitive baptists, since I do not find it in any of their old writings, nor was this kind of talk to be found among any but professed arminians until recent years.

Elders of the past like Samuel Trott and Gilbert Beebe (writers of the black rock address), Syvester Hassell (one of the writers of "The History of the Church of God," the best primitive baptist history available), and later preachers like J.H. Oliphant and Silas Durand [iii] [iv] [v] [vi] [vii] [viii] [ix] all advocated views of predestination that indicate they believed that God’s predetermination extended to all events in such a way as to preclude chance or a self-determined free will from having any say. SEE PBtop: ABSOLUTE PREDESTINATION by Primitive Baptist’s prior to 1900? In short, they believed God purposed all things that come to pass and though that sometimes was in the way of "permission,"[x] God’s dealing with sin was "not merely permissive." The doctrine of "conditional time salvation" in its unbiblical form was not to be found among them, nor have I yet to see this expression or view advocated by any primitive baptists prior to the civil war.

It is evident from the scriptures that there is a salvation or salvations that occur in time. It is also sometimes conditional upon the children of God obeying the commands of God. If that is true, there should be no harm or no violence to the truth in stating that there is a conditional time salvation. Whether or not it is wise to use the term in discussions with those who know not the truth regarding sovereign grace is debatable.

Peter exhorted the people on the day of Pentecost to "Save yourselves from this untoward generation." {} Did the response to this command save those who took the appropriate action in time or eternality? Did their positive response bring about their deliverance from sin or cause them to be born of the Spirit? Was not the salvation that took place conditional upon their receiving the preached word and obeying it by repenting and being baptized?

Isaiah brought the following messag e from God: "If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it" (Isaiah 1:19-20). Was this not dealing with a possible salvation or deliverance? Was it conditional upon their obedience? Was it not in time and dealing with timely consequences?

There are some things regarding the foreknowledge and predestination or foreordination of God that we are not able to understand. However, it is evident that knowing something does not cause it to be or to happen. If I see a ball roll off the roof of a house, I know it will hit the ground. But my knowing this had no effect on what was occurring. God has made man subject to vanity. Otherwise, man would be as a puppet and God would not receive the honor that comes about when His born-again children obey Him. Ultimately, God will overrule every sinful act of men and devils to His own glory, but not in every case in this present world. According to the revealed word of God, there are many things that occur in this present world that are displeasing to God. Yet for His own reason He does not intervene to stop it in all cases. Does this mean that even though God has expressed His displeasure, He really desires that sin and evil occur? Absolutely not. Yes, God works His will and does all His pleasure. But that does not mean that God is the active cause of all that takes place.

Here are a few things I think we should consider in this ongoing conversation. First, the ones who some of us have conversed with who believe that God predestinates everything that comes to pass really do believe that God is NOT the author of sin. They say it. We should believe that they believe it that way even though we cannot see that they could in their believing that God predestinates everything that comes to pass. I think where they miss it is in the way they understand the text inRomans 8:28in the statement and belief that all things work together for good to them who are the called of God. However, the scripture says it.2 Peter 1:3(According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:) should be considered along withRomans 8:28. Are all things in1 Peter 4:11to be considered all things by the elect and by the non-elect alike? I think not. Is God in "all things" (including murder, incest, rape) glorified? I think not. Does1 Timothy 6:17mean that murder, lying, stealing are included in the "all things" that God has given us richly to enjoy? I think not again. Is sin, deceit and all evil works part of the "all things" that godliness is profitable unto in1 Timothy 4:8? Are we to prove that adultery is either good or bad for us as1 Thessalonians 5:21tells us to prove "all things?" I think I could find more examples for consideration. It seems this is enough though. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Does spiritual adultery, unfaithfulness, and multiple sins by the child of God, even after regeneration, work together with anything for good to the child of God? No, no, a thousand times no. Is there anything the child of God does that works together for his own good? I think not. I know myself -it has never, no never been so with me. Does the predestination, foreknowledge, election, preservation of God work together for my good? I would have to say that it is ONLY those things that God does and performs and works that work together for my good. If it were not for those things nothing would work together for my good any more than nothing works together for good to any who do not love the Lord? The promise is just not there where it states that God works anything for the dead alienated sinner. If God does not begin the work, it will never be begun. If God does not continue the work it would never be seen through to perfection. 544

[i] InRomans 8:29we read "... For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate..."- since God did not foreknow all of the human race that indicates to me that God did not predestinate everything.Amos 3:2says "You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." These "only" that He foreknew were predestinated. To say that He predestinated any other to anything IMHO is going beyond the scriptures even though I am aware that inActs 2:23that Christ was delivered by the determinate (ordained, marked out) counsel of God and inActs 4:27-28that the Gentiles and the people of Israel, etc. were gathered together for to do whatsoever God’s hand determined before to be done. We have bitten off more than we can chew if we try to take the scriptures and prove that God predestinated everything that comes to pass. Sin is something that came to pass -surely God did not predestinate sin. 516

[ii] I think this is a mis-understanding of the position taken by the "conditional time salvation" believers. They would deny IMO that God’s predestination is involved in time salvation but I don’t believe any would deny that God’s sovereignty and grace are involved in time salvation.

[iii] I’d like for us to try to stick to scripture in the answering of things contained in this discussion. {iv} Regie

[iv] I think there is plenty of scripture to support what I believe and will provide some here at your request. I was referencing some historical primitive baptist elders from different camps in order to see if there is any evidence that the "conditional time salvation" doctrine existed prior to the late 1800s among our people. I have not found any evidence that it did. {v} A statement was made that God’s predestination does not extend to all events and I believe that the scriptures clearly teach contrary. I believe His eternal purpose extends to all things and that he works all things after the counsel of His will. Not some things, but all. 547 {vi}

[v] When attempting to communicate clearly, especially in areas where people do not fully understand each other, it is essential for us to define our terms. What is the intended meaning of “ conditional time salvation?” I have never personally heard a Primitive Baptist within my circle of travels and communication use that precise term. Are we creating paper tigers to attack? {vii} If so, we are not improving communication. As a matter of practice, I have ceased to use the more frequently used term, "time salvation." It appears that our folks developed this term in a futile attempt to communicate more clearly their distinction in belief from Arminian-leaning Baptists after the 1832 separation. The briefest interaction with most people outside the Primitive Baptist camp will reveal that the term confuses; it certainly doesn’t communicate anything more clearly.

Elder David Pyles has made a convincing case that Elders BeeBe and Trott developed their unique terminology with a similar desire in mind, but their terminology was not clearly understood by their own folks. David’s thesis, well documented, supports the idea that neither of these men ever intended to teach that God authored or caused sin in His predestination. Both unfortunate situations demonstrate a point that we should have learned well by now, but our humanity interferes with spiritual discernment. We should be cautious in our choice of terms.

[vi] Is there a distinction between God’s predestination and His purpose? The author seems to make them interchangeable. They may relate, but Scripture does not appear to make them synonymous. Did God predestinate every event, every act, and every unfolding episode of human history? The author seems to affirm this point strongly. We have all had intense discussions with Arminian advocates regarding the seemingly universal terms in Scripture. {John 3:16;1 Timothy 2:4, etc.} Rather than engage the question on a philosophical ground, I will offer specific Scriptures that contradict what it appears that this brother believes. If he has not clearly stated his views, I offer my apologies for misunderstanding him, but it seems that he has gone to significant length to make the point indisputable. {viii}

Hardly all the Scriptures that challenge his views will be listed, but I will offer sufficient and sufficiently clear passages to make the point that the idea that God’s predestination indiscriminantly includes every act of every human being is not Biblically correct.

Jeremiah 7:31Rebellious people practiced child sacrifice, an abominable sin that God clearly states that He didn’t command; neither did it come into his heart.

Jeremiah 11:8God specifically says that He commanded His people to do some things that they did not do.

Jeremiah 14:14False prophets spoke lies, though God did not send them, nor command them to speak.

Jeremiah 19:5Again, the people practiced child sacrifices, something that God specifically states that He did not command; " neither came it into my mind." I do not limit God’s foreknowledge, a fatal error of neo-orthodoxy. However, I cannot interpret this passage so as to make it compatible with God’s predestination of all things. Can He predestinate something that doesn’t come into his mind to command? Can He command something that He says He didn’t command? He cannot lie. {ix} Jeremiah 23:32God neither sent nor commanded the false prophets.

Jeremiah 29:23Sinful people committed villainy and adultery, and spoke lying words, which God states that He did not command.

[vii] I am not attempting to create a paper tiger. I had not heard of any of our preachers using the term "conditional time salvation," until recently. Perhaps I understood wrong, but certain doctrines were being advocated that I had not heard before among our people, including the idea that the large majority of the human race is elect, but probably will know nothing of it in this life, and will not have obedience or faith.

[viii] I hope I can make clear what idea I was trying to defend. By predestination I do not mean that God is the direct cause of all things nor that He is the "doer" of all things, but rather that all things that occur were his purpose to do (in the case of his acts) or to allow(in the case of sinful acts). I use predestinate in the same way Trott, Beebe, Zanchius, and others did. To indicate a fore-limiting, so that God acts, saves, commands, all His good works, and he restrains, limits, and turns for His own glory all the sinful works of men.

[ix] I think it is important to distinguish between different kinds of "commanding." For example, there are powerful and undeniable commands of creation. God commands the waters to divide and they divide. The elements cannot disobey. It is like that with our regeneration and eternal salvation. God commands and it is so. We cannot, as Arminians attest, reject God’s grace. These are the commands that God does not allow the possibility of them not comming to pass. On the other hand, there are other things that God commands that, in some sense, do not come to pass. For example, all of the exhortations to obedience given to God’s people through the ages have not been perfectly obeyed by them. (They have been perfectly obeyed in them, through Christ, but not in themselves)

So, I believe that God can in fact purpose to come to pass (or "predestinate") something that he did not command to human beings. For example, God commanded Pharoah to let his people go. Yet, scripture reveals that God hardened Pharoah’s heart and intended to use Pharoah’s own disobedience for his further glory. God is on one hand commanding Pharoah to do the right thing (let his people go), yet allowing Pharoah’s disobedience for a time in order to bring himself glory.

If God desired, he could have "commanded" that his people be let go and had them miraculously removed without Pharoah’s cooperation, but his purpose was different, and it included the disobedience of Pharoah to God’s command.

[x] God giving permission to sin is beyond me. I just cannot fathom it.