The Fostering of an Assembly (Shepherding), Part 1

The Lord Jesus, how He said, it is more blessed to give than to receive. First Thessalonians and chapter number five, Paul's letter to the Thessalonians in chapter number five. Is there a stream that runs through those rows back there? We've got a couple of rows way in the back and just feel like saying come near to me my brethren.

First Thessalonians five and verse number thirteen, twelve rather, verse number twelve. And we beseech you brethren to know them which labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake and be at peace among yourselves. Now we exhort you brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feeble minded, support the weak, be patient toward all men, see that none render evil for evil unto any man but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves and to all men.

One final portion, there are many, many that we could touch on, but we'll just read in Hebrews chapter thirteen, very familiar verses here in Hebrews chapter thirteen. Verse number seven. Remember them which have or had the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God, whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.

Verse seventeen. Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves, for they watch for your souls as they that must give account that they may do it with joy and not with grief, for that is unprofitable for you. Now, we trust that God will add his rich blessing to the public reading of his word.

Now, just a couple of things, even before we look at the passages. This meeting is primarily related to leadership in God's assembly and how that leadership can foster the welfare and the blessing of the assembly. So maybe you're sitting here and you think, OK, that's a very niche message.

There's maybe a dozen people here that refers to. And this is a good chance for me to catch up on some of my texting or some of my sleep. I would hope that you will see that what we are looking at really is relevant virtually.

Well, not virtually. It is relevant to everyone who is here. Yes, there are perhaps a dozen, 15 or 20 men here who bear responsibility locally.

And this would have special relevance perhaps for them. But there are young men here and you are being prepared for leadership in the future. And so it is very, very relevant to you.

There are wives of some of the young men here. And there are young women here who hope someday to be linked in marriage, if it's God's will, with one of the brethren. And the effectiveness of your husband's leadership will depend very, very heavily upon your character as a wife.

It could compromise his ability to lead. It could hinder his ability to lead in a remarkable way. As we'll see, there's quite a bit of teaching that a brother does, a leader does in the assembly.

But there's a lot more teaching he does in the home around a table with young believers and others gathered round. And without a wife who is open to hospitality and entertaining the people of God and opening her home becomes very, very difficult to fulfill all that is before us in these chapters. Someone else is saying, well, I'm not a leader.

I'm not a young man who may someday be a leader. I'm not a wife or a would-be wife of a leader. Well, then let this meeting be a stimulus for you to pray for your leaders and to recognize that it is one of the most thankless and difficult roles that God has given leading an assembly and being a help to God's people.

So there's something for everyone here. Second thing I want to say is there are men here who are leaders, men we have all looked up to, and they've been silent through the entire conference. If they don't want to be called on, they'd better chip in and have something to say.

If nothing else, your experience, your wisdom, and there are maybe those with questions that you're confronted with, this is an excellent opportunity to share those things. And if because some of us are so forward and so wordy, you don't have an opportunity, raise your hand, don't be embarrassed, and we'll try to make room for everyone who has something to contribute to do so. Now, with that before us, we want to consider the subject now of leadership and how that leadership can benefit and be a blessing and foster the welfare of an assembly.

Now, I'm going to deal with a number of things in the introduction. And as I deal with them, I'm going to be setting them aside because they're not really our main focus. But since we're dealing with the subject of leadership, we need to touch on these things just very gently, very lightly, and then move on to what is before me primarily.

First thing to understand is when did leadership as elders, as shepherds, when did that become the norm in New Testament times? You certainly don't read of it in the Gospels. You read there of the elders of Israel. And in fact, tragically, whether you're looking in the Old Testament or New, elders don't have a good track record.

They usually are very, very out of the mind of God and moving contrary to God. But when you come to the Acts of the Apostles, you begin with apostles. And you move to about chapter number 11, and you read about gifts being sent up to the elders in Jerusalem.

Chapter 14, Paul is appointing elders in every church in that Iconium, Lystra, Derbe area. And so you begin to feel that elders now must be coming into prominence. And you come to chapter number 20, Paul calls for the elders of the church and the apostles begin to fade.

And leadership now is transferred from the hands of a small group of men, the apostles, and the leadership in God's assembly is being transferred to the hands of what we call, as we'll see in a moment, elders and so on in the New Testament. So the norm for a local assembly in its guidance, in its leadership, is in the hands of the oversight, the elders and so on. So that's the norm.

What about the names? At least five names that are used to describe these individuals in the word of God. We've already mentioned one. We've mentioned the elder, and that would certainly suggest his maturity.

A man of spiritual maturity, not necessarily old, but a man of spiritual maturity, the elder. Then there's a word that could be translated either the bishops or overseers, the same word. And someone asked yesterday about the translation of the King James Version and why certain words were kept.

And it was the influence of the church at that time not to upset the hierarchy and church order. And so instead of just translating it as overseers, at times it's translated as bishop, but it is the same word as an overseer. And that is not so much his maturity, but his alacrity.

He's aware. He's got his hands on things. He's watching over.

He's concerned for people, concerned for the welfare of the assembly. He is an elder. He is an overseer or bishop.

As well, he is someone who rules. Now, we need to be very careful with that word because it does not connote to what we think of as being rule. Literally, the word means, and we have a few Greek fellows here who can help us with this, that the word really is someone who goes before, the idea of a leader, someone who is leading the people of God and is primarily by example, if nothing else, but also by his teaching.

So now it is not so much his maturity, his alacrity, but his authority as he leads the people of God as a ruler, as a leader. While the word does not occur as shepherd, yet, whether it is feed the church of God or we have in Ephesians chapter four, gifts to the church, the pastor shepherd or the pastor teacher, the idea of a shepherd. And now we have the idea in the shepherd of his activity.

He is feeding the church of God. Another word is the word that we read of in Hebrews chapter 13. There it's translated in our Bible as a leader.

But really, the word there is, is a guide, your guides, and now it is the idea of the dignity, his walk before the people of God. So you have the idea of his heeding the people of God, of his reading the people of God, of his leading the people of God, of his feeding the people of God, and in Hebrews 13, of his pleading for the people of God. Now, in case you need any corroboration that these are all the same man, all the same group of men, 1 Peter chapter five, Peter speaks to the elders to feed the flock over the which the Holy Ghost hath made them overseers.

You have the same expression in Hebrews in Acts chapter 20. He calls for the elders of the church. He tells them to feed or shepherd and he speaks of them as being overseers.

Titus chapter one, appointing bishops, the elder must be. And so these are terms are all used interchangeably, stressing a slightly different aspect of this individual and his work. Now, there's one other term only used once, and that is in Titus chapter one.

He is a steward of God. And that is going to suggest to us a different aspect. We're all stewards in that sense.

So I'm not including that per se. We all have stewardships. Here's a man that whose stewardship is the people of God, the flock of God that he is accountable for before God.

So their names, the norm, their names, their number, aside from where we have the credentials being listed in First Timothy chapter three and in Titus chapter one, they are always mentioned in the plural, the plural multiplicity. The word of God knows nothing about a leading elder in an assembly. Sorry, I know we use the term.

It knows nothing about a visiting elder in the assembly or a teaching elder or a pastor with under elders under him, a multiplicity of men, a plurality of men that function together and the wisdom of God. Any any of our brethren here who have been in responsibility in a local assembly will attest to the wisdom of God in raising up multiple men to balance each other and to preserve each other and to sharpen each other in assembly fellowship. And a very, very vital thing for each of us that bear responsibility is to appreciate and value each other, because many times difficulties occur within the oversight that then spread to the assembly and divide the assembly.

So unity, harmony, appreciation, one for another, valuing each other's strong points and seeking to balance each other is vital. So they are always in the plural. We could speak of the necessity and there would have to do with their credentials.

And that's first Timothy three, Titus chapter one. And we may touch on that briefly. But let me just mention one thing about those chapters and the credentials of the men that lead the people of God.

They were not given for you to decide who you will listen to as an overseer. They were not given as a checklist for you to sit back and say that man doesn't fulfill all the requirements. I am not going to recognize him as an overseer.

They were given to a man whose exercise is to lead the people of God. So they were given for you to examine yourself. If I want to lay myself out for this work, the expression of first Timothy chapter three, here is what must mark me.

And so it is a standard I apply to myself, not a standard that I impose on others and decide you don't fit. So I'm not going to recognize you. The Lord Jesus Christ told his disciples, and this is invaluable to get hold of.

The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat. Everything they bid you do you do, but don't do as they do. In other words, because they have that place, even though their lives may not be consistent when they teach you from the word of God, you obey it.

A good man saying a wrong thing does not make it right. And a bad man saying a good thing doesn't make it wrong. Truth stands on itself.

I am responsible to obey the truth, whether I can find a flaw in the man's life or not. We've got to get back to the authority of the word of God. It stands on its own.

So the necessity is seen in the requirements given in the two significant portions of the word of God. Then we would have the nobility of that work. That's first Peter, chapter five.

Now, we didn't read it, but we're reminded there that there is a compensation. First of all, the honor of being an under shepherd to the chief shepherd. What an honor, what a dignity to be able to move in fellowship with him.

So there is the place we occupy and then there is the compensation that is before all those who serve faithfully. A crown of glory from the hand of the chief shepherd himself in a coming day. So it is a noble work, a very noble work and a very, very vital work, as we shall see.

We may touch on the need for the saints in their relationship to the shepherds. I'll just say three things, primarily from Hebrews, chapter 13 and 1 Thessalonians, chapter five. Reminded there, first of all, of appreciate them.

Number one, appreciate them. Appreciation, cooperation and supplication. Those are your responsibilities to the leadership of your assembly.

Appreciation. Number one, cooperation and thirdly, supplication. Pray for them.

The responsibility of the assembly to its leadership. But what I want to look at especially then is the nature of the work of leadership and its fostering of the assembly's welfare. Three different spheres we want to look at from 1 Thessalonians, chapter five.

The scope of that work, the scope of that work. We will look at the individuals that you have to deal with and the interventions that are suggested in 1 Thessalonians, chapter five. The individuals, those who are weak, those who are forward, those who are faint hearted and so on, and then the interventions that he will speak of admonishing, supporting, carrying, encouraging and so on.

We'll look at that. That's 1 Thessalonians, chapter five. We'll look at Acts, chapter 20 and look not now at the scope of the work, but the supply God gives for the work.

We're reminded there of the word of God that is able to build you up and the God who is available. I commend you to God and to the word of his grace. Paul is about to leave.

The one they had looked to for support and for guidance and for wisdom and for decision making, he's about to leave. What do they have? What don't they have? They have the word of God that is able and the God who was available. And of course, the relevance of that is that's exactly what we have today.

We value men. Please don't misunderstand. We value men.

Some of us wish the men that were a generation ago were still with us. And you scratch your head sometimes faced with difficulties, but they're gone. We do have the word of God and God himself.

So we're reminded there of the supply we have for the work. Hebrews 13, the solemnity of the work, the accountability of the sheep to shepherds, but the accountability of the shepherds to the Lord. A tremendously solemn responsibility, that of accountability from Hebrews chapter 13.

And we'll consider Hebrews chapter 13 as well in a few moments. Now, very hurriedly gone over a number of things, but we want to look first of all at 1 Thessalonians and chapter number five. I want you to consider four different things in these brief verses that we have.

Number one is the recognition of a responsibility. The recognition of a response, you'll notice the words he uses among you, in front of you, by your side, admonishing you. So we'll notice a relationship and a responsibility that is recognized.

But then number two, the discerning of differences. You better be able to tell the forward from the faint hearted. If you can't, you're going to have a very difficult time with your ministry.

There's those who are factious, faint hearted, feeble and forward. And he says, be able to get close enough that you know the needs of the people of God. Discern differences among the believers.

Then he says there's a ministry that is mandated. He says some have to be admonished. Some have to be comforted.

Some have to be supported, carried, nursed. It's the idea of that lovely verse in Isaiah chapter 40. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd, carry the lambs in his arms.

And tragically, it's not always lambs. Some people need to be carried all their Christian lives. Very difficult work.

So there is the admonishing, the comforting, the supporting, the long suffering. All of that is in this short portion. And then the vigilance that is vital.

A vigilance that is very, very important. See that none render evil for evil unto any man, but ever follow what is good. So we'll be looking now at these four different things.

And of course, there's other things to bring in here. The responsibility of the believers to their leadership. But starting out now here in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 for perhaps 20 or 25 minutes and considering together the scope of the work of those who would lead the people of God.

And again, please, if you don't have time to come in, just signal, do something and we'll try to make sure you have an opportunity. The only thing is I don't have eyes in the back of my head. So if it's back here, you'll have to speak up because I'm not able to see you.

So with that, we'll just consider this portion in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 initially. Now, what's the idea, Brother, when it says that know them? How do we know elders? Very good. How do we know elders? Let me give you an example of a situation that is most unique.

You'll never confront this in North America. This was in a foreign country where there were a group of there were an assembly with a group primarily of young men. Older men had passed away, had never transferred leadership to anyone.

And they were at sea. No one wanted to say, I'm an elder. And so the question was, who's to be recognized? And I simply said to one of the sisters, if you had a problem, who would you go to? She said, I go to that brother or that brother.

I said, well, those are the men you have respect for and the men you recognize as being able to help you. I said, those are the shepherds. So how do we recognize them? They're the men who were doing the work.

Now, in reality, I mean, I think we have to face real life. And that is there are those who the oversight might announce that the assembly as being now recognized as being in leadership in the assembly. If that is ever a surprise to the assembly, something is wrong.

It should almost be assumed that these are the men God is raising up in our midst to be a help for the future. And it should just be not that we make you an overseer. The spirit of God has made you an overseer.

We are recognizing it. Leicester, which is a town in central England, gets a lot of students coming to the university there and they don't know the background. They arrive in the hall with a letter of commendation.

And David West tells us that his habit is if a young student comes and says, could you tell us who the overseers are in this assembly? David says, no, you come back and tell me in three months time. And it's the same point, isn't it, that they ought to be able to observe the overseer at work and determine it by that route. Yes.

The Lord Jesus speaks in John 10 about knowing the sheep and the sheep knowing him as I know my father and he knows me in that relationship between divine persons. He's suggesting that is the relationship between the shepherd and the sheep. Now, we can take the analogy and apply it to Thessalonians 5. We should know each other.

To know them which labor among you. That's a pretty strong word, labor, isn't it, to the point of weariness, toil, and it's an ongoing, continuous work. So if there are men functioning in that way for our benefit, you know, it should be pretty obvious through the air.

Yeah, our brother has mentioned two words in the New Testament for labor or toil. This is a very strong one. It's the same word that's used in First Timothy, chapter five, those who labor in the word.

So men who are spending time making sacrifices to be in the word of God, to feed the people of God, they are the kind of men that are then able to feed and lead God's assembly. Just a little thing. We had an elderly man in our meeting called Jimmy Dodds, and he served the Lord faithfully in our assembly for upwards of 40 years.

And then towards the end of his life, he was no longer able to get out and he certainly didn't visit us as he had done over the years. But I would be very reluctant to say that Jimmy wasn't an overseer because he wasn't laboring. What he brought to us was wisdom.

So when Ernie and Robert and I had a problem and we did occasionally have problems, we would never take a decision without going to Jimmy and speak to his bedside. So there's labor, labor and prayer. You know, there's a lot of types of labor.

Yeah. Chapter 13 of Hebrews will remind us of the labor that is done in prayer for the assembly. I was thinking that as a leader, there is a sense in which in the laboring we become overly anxious and we start to micromanage, maybe, the people and the things that are going on.

And then there's the other side where we are so relaxed, we just kind of let everything flow and go as it happens. There's a balance in there. And I don't know about you, but I struggle trying to find that balance of where I think as you deal with newer Christians, there is the idea you have to sort of be closer.

And then there's other times maybe when they're maturing that you can sort of back off and let them experience it. But I just I don't know if you have any thoughts on that between micromanaging the situation or people's lives versus hands off too much. Yeah, you have more experience than I would.

I'm sure because of the work you do. But I think that while that is not the kind of differences being mentioned here in this section, I think it gets back to discerning where a believer is in their own spiritual life and what their needs are. And as you said, I think balancing Christian life is the most difficult thing in every sphere.

You know, balancing ourselves is very difficult because we tend to be creatures of extremes. And unfortunately, fluctuate that way. But I think that there's you quoted earlier from Isaiah 40 and 11.

Yeah. As the shepherd, he'll he'll gather them in his arms. That's his power.

He's going to hold them in his bosom. That's his affection. Now, the last verse is beautiful.

The last clause, gently lead those that are with young. There's all the different sections. There are those that are strong.

There are those that need more affection than others. And there's a younger that need fed with milk, not strong meat and need special care. And it's a diversity that that's why you need a multiplicity of overseers.

OK, very good. Bruce, go ahead. I think First Thessalonians chapter two would help somewhat in that as well, where Paul speaks about that initially in the beginning, he cared he and the others with him cared for those new converts like a nursing mother.

Then as a father charges his own children. So I think even as we think about in the natural family, the very same process where there's absolute involvement initially and then then there's a gradual weaning and development of the individual until finally it's more as as companion with companion in that sense. Same in a family with a father with his children.

Yes. You recognize when they're able to handle independence. You give them a bit, see how they do with it, draw them back, you know, same type of thing.

So just moving on here, laboring among you. We've mentioned that they're among you. You have to be among the flock.

Now, saying that, here I am a thousand miles from the assembly. And that's always an awkward thing. Someone has said you can pretend to listen.

You can pretend to care, but you can't pretend to be there. OK, I'm not there. I'm here.

But you've got to be among the flock. And that's not just being at the meetings. That's vital.

But it means being available. And Rich Dudgeon can tell you, a dear man back east who's now home with the Lord, Fred Hill, he would take the young man out for breakfast. And they all thought they were the only one being taken out for breakfast, so they all realized he was doing with all of them one at a time, taking them out for breakfast, just talking, finding out where they were, how they were doing, what problems they were facing.

And he left his mark on an assembly, on a generation. I suggest, I don't know how it is with you, but when I'm away oftentimes, is there's nothing like texting, because the fact that you reach out with a text, and I would think that would even be in a local sense as well. You know, we missed you this morning.

Where were you? Are you sick? Is there something else that we can help you with? I have found that that is something that people appreciate. It shows that you are interested in them not only being there physically, bodily, and when they can't be there, there's a reason why. And so, I don't know, but when you're, I'm 2,000 miles away, so it is, but I don't feel that far because I'm only a phone call and a text away.

And thank God for modern technology that helps us with these things. But I do think it is part of shepherding. Do you tweet? I don't tweet.

So we've had one positive comment about technology. Okay, we can move forward. Anybody, we don't want to just cut off some of these great men that are on the sidelines here.

I wonder if I could make a comment about this general idea of knowing them which labor among you and are over you in the Lord and so on. I don't think we should ignore the fact that in a new work, it's necessary, and Titus, the epistle of Titus is really built around this, to set in order the things that are lacking to appoint elders in every city. That the new believers look to those who brought the gospel to them as shepherds.

That it's inevitable that they are going to shepherd initially. And so it's going to be largely on the confidence of those who brought the gospel to them and shepherded them that they're going to accept somebody else to be over them. And so I think it is essential personally for those who have had the joy of seeing an assembly planted and worked in that area to formally encourage, I mean, not only to encourage and see development, but to mention it to the others.

And and I think then that is perpetuated, is intended to be perpetuated by the existing overseers to encourage and to formally mention to the believers. I think we'll see when we come to Acts 20 that Paul is not appointing elders, but he was serving as a shepherd in a shepherd capacity initially. And then that responsibility was given to two other men.

Can you help me with something? I'm an overseer back home and what I find is I find it far easier to get close to and speak to with the younger ones that are maybe maybe 10, 15 years or about the same age as my own children. I find it personally quite a bit more difficult to try and provide support and aid to people that are 20 years older than me. But I've got two fellow overseers, Ernie and Robert, who are in their 70s.

Is it one of the other reasons for a plurality is that you don't merely have a plurality of temperament, but very oftentimes a plurality of age? And I hope I'm not trying to defend my own deficiencies, but maybe God intends me to work more with the teenagers that Ernie and Robert wouldn't find it easy to text or tweet. I can text or tweet because I know how that sort of stuff works. But Abigail and Ben and Scott and Callum, I speak to them all the time, speak to them from over here as well.

But should I feel guilty about that or is that just in the nature of oversight? No, I think that's in the nature of oversight as part of why there is this multiplicity of age, temperament. And, you know, there are there are believers in the assembly who are much closer to one of the other overseers than they are to me. That's what I find.

You know, and that's and that's good. You know, something needs to be done. You encourage them to, you know, the relationship is vital if there's going to be any any spiritual help to them.

Can I add a point to that, too? You're 70 year old people, OK, which some of are a little close to that. We might be, like you say, exercising more of our time with older people because we are older. But it's nice when in our home we have a younger brother who's an elder and the younger people are adhering to him.

And it's great to see that reaction from the younger people to a younger elder, because if the Lord be not come, we're gone. And he's with us will be the older people that will be going to. But now there's a fostering a fellowship because that's what your title is, right? Fostering a fellowship with the over the younger elder.

And as he moves on, so they move on. I don't know. Yeah, no.

And I think the rather enigmatic statement at the end of verse 13, be at peace among yourselves, suggests make sure you don't make this a faction just following you. You know, it's you know, yes, you have a better rapport with this age group, but make sure that you are fostering fellowship with everyone, not just these are your followers. So does that mean you're saying that it's so important to bring young men along? OK, train them.

So it's not all changing when the older brethren leave. You know, one of the great deficiencies at times is the failure to pass the baton. Now, I can speak personally.

OK, I struggle. Talk about struggles. I struggle with a sense of responsibility versus being a control freak.

Do I have to control everything or is it really a sense of responsibility that I want things to go the right way? And you can talk yourself into holding on to everything because you're the only one that can do it. Just a small anecdote. There was a man who began a business in his 30s.

He wrote himself a letter and he put it in the safe to be open when he was 65. And the letter said, you will open this today and think nobody can run this business as well as you. But you're wrong.

It's time to quit and hand the business over. OK, he knew enough at 30 to know what he would think of 65. So I'm saying you need to quit when you're 65, but you do need to look to the future.

That's vital. A man who fails to plan for the future has failed to plan. OK, you've got to think of the future.

How about this relationship? It's known there's a communication. Now there's a problem. There's admonition needed.

You know, if you've never spoke to me except to correct me, it's difficult to get me to listen to you. But if you have a relationship with me, the day comes along that you say, look, Duncan, there's this little thing that we have to deal with. Can you help me? And I'll do it.

I'm right in there because we have a relationship. Correction where there's never been a connection is viewed as condemnation. OK, if you've never had a connection with a person and when you go to help them, when you go to correct them, it's criticism.

It's not help. Before you in the Lord, they're in the middle of verse 12 and are over you in the Lord or before you in the Lord, would that carry with the thought of they're leading by example, they're they're they're conducting their lives in the Lord and their work is in the Lord. And thus you can you're looking at that.

And so it's easy for them then to admonish you and adjust your mindset. OK, very good. First thing to just clarify what our brother has said, if you didn't pick it up, he changed that word from over you to those who are leading you.

Now, we don't want to get away. We don't want to totally remove any thought of authority, but it's not the idea of ruling over you. The three or four times it's translated that way here, Acts 20, first Peter five, is it? It really is the idea of those who are leading and guiding you does carry authority.

But again, it's not an oppressive rule. And as William has said, it's in the Lord, such as the character of the leadership that it becomes very easy to follow, which will link itself with Hebrews chapter 13, the idea of obeying or being persuaded because of a man's life, that this is this is worth following and living for. Now, I don't want to go back, but I'm going to.

Lots of life, you know, I know executives and those that are over them, they say you're not the important one, but what you leave behind is so important. So isn't that carry out in many facets of assembly life? Yes, we'll see that in chapter 13 of Hebrews, the legacy of these men, what they left behind, what they left for others to to continue to live, live for and to live with their example and so on. William James, an American philosopher, said not a Christian.

He said, invest your life in something that will outlive your life. So that's a good piece of advice for all, invest your life in something that will outlive your life. And we as believers have.

The greatest chance of doing that, not just a statue somewhere in a park, the birds sit on. And Paul says, and worse than that, Paul says, be imitators of me, even as I am of Christ. And isn't that what we're looking for as elders are seeking to follow the Lord? So the saints will seek to be guided by the lifestyle, by the teachings, doctrines of the elders.

Just a little thing. If you look at first Timothy three, Titus one and the hallmarks of an overseer. I don't think they're an exhaustive list because salvation baptism is not mentioned there.

But if you try undertake the task of summarizing them, I think the one theme that comes through in them all loud and clear is a steady man. He's sober. He's not given to drunkenness.

He he's patient. So what you have ideally in an overseer is not a man that's extravagantly gifted, because I don't think any of the gifts that you read of elsewhere are mentioned in first Timothy three or Titus one at all. But what you've got a man who is consistent, steady and reliable.

So if you take the 16 or 17 qualities and just try and reduce them to their essence, what really sets an overseer apart is a man. He maybe is not a great minister of the word. He's maybe not a fiery gospel preacher, but he's absolutely dependable.

He's at the gatherings of the Lord's people. He prays for the Lord's people. He visits the Lord's people.

He's got a good temperament. He doesn't fly off the handle when things go wrong. That is the kind of man who's best equipped to lead the people of God.

Very good. Let's say about this thought of knowing, I think often we talk about the importance of elders being in contact and being in view with their fellowship, with the people in the assembly. But maybe we don't focus enough on the fact that it's very important for the assembly, for which you and I might be an overseer, for them to get to know the elders amongst them by asking them questions, having time with them, going out of their way to learn from these men.

And that is one of the best ways to know them that they are among you, because you might be surprised that maybe they know more than you thought. Joe, I'm just going to repeat some of that for the sake of the recording, because it doesn't always pick up when you're not on the mic. Our brother has mentioned the value of younger believers getting to know the overseers by getting close to them and asking questions and having spiritual discussions with them, going to them for advice.

And all of that is very, very valuable and very vital. So I think we certainly would all agree with that. The idea here, then, the third thing is to admonish.

We have in verse number 12, over you in the Lord, leading you and admonish you. That means they've got to be by your side. They've got to be close.

The idea is speaking to the mind. It's addressing their understanding of things, not putting them down, not putting them in their place. It's not the idea here.

It's the idea rather of admonishing, maybe correction, maybe adjusting some of their thinking and some of their behavior. And then he goes into the fact of esteeming them highly in love for their work's sake and being at peace. So here we have the thought of appreciating them and of cooperating with them.

And in Hebrews 13 or rather elsewhere, we would get the thought of supplicating, interceding on their behalf for their blessing. And then he comes to the verse 14. And we've suggested they're discerning differences among believers for different groups here that are mentioned.

There are the factious, those who are unruly and walking out of line. They're the faint hearted. We are King James Version has feeble minded, but that's really a poor thought.

The idea is those who are of little soul, easily discouraged, the slightest thing, just they just want to give up all the time. And he says people like that, those who are of little soul, he says, make sure that you're able to to comfort them, to give them encouragement, support those who are spiritually weak. You may have to carry them.

And he says, then there's the need to be patient with everyone. And there are those who are forward, those who are pushing their way and the need of patience. Or as our brother Alan has reminded us, this is the even temperedness of a man.

He's not easily flustered. He doesn't doesn't lose it all the time. He's he's able to handle whatever personality types there are in the assembly and to deal with each one.

Now, knowing those that live among you, if you disagree with an elder or with their decisions, what should you do? Excellent question. What do you do when you disagree with the decision an oversight has made and you feel they're going in the wrong direction? I think in a very gracious, humble manner, you go to them with the word of God. You tell them what you feel the word of God teaches about a particular step they are taking.

You tell them, I'm leaving it with you. I will take this no further. I'm not going to call up other preachers.

I'm not going to talk to other assemblies. I just want to leave it with you to consider, because in the end, as we're going to look at, they are accountable to God for what they decide. Not you.

You've cleared yourself in a sense before the Lord by going to them with the word of God, with the right attitude, but leave it there. Do not begin polarizing the assembly, getting people on your side and campaigning. It's God's assembly.

He can adjust things. I know that sounds like idealistic. God can adjust things, but you will gain nothing by polarizing the assembly over a particular decision they're making.

Had you something more in mind? Well, that's just what I had. Don't spread it around. Young people and older ones can talk together and just fester something that will get come worse and worse.

Speaking personally, I would encourage people to speak to the other side. I think they have to. I mean, it's not that wisdom dies with us.

You know, we don't. I mean, speaking personally, I find it invaluable to find out, particularly for some of the older sisters in our meeting, what they think about the matter. And it's not unknown for Robert and Ernie and I to get our heads together and take maybe a different approach once we realize what the implications of what we're doing is.

What you just said, Brother Sandy, would verse 13 endorse that, esteem them very highly and love for their work's sake to recognize their responsibility and be at peace among yourselves. Leave it there. Don't agitate.

You've done your bit. Leave it there. Yeah, I think that's very valuable.

I've seen it happen where I believe exactly what you said. I've actually done it. That works.

But a friend of mine, he was right. The issue, I believe he was right. He went to the elders.

They didn't agree with him. He went to the assembly and he was told to be quiet. And he went to the assembly and he was told to be quiet.

It wasn't long before he was out of the assembly for railing. He was right and he became wrong because he didn't do what you suggested. There's a difference.

I think there's a longest line. I think there's a difference between maybe having a suggestion about something that maybe, you know, paint the wall red instead of blue is a suggestion that you could give. You could do that to maybe one of the elders.

But when you're talking, thank you. But when it comes to an issue that is doctrinal or scripture, I think you said the word them over and over again. I think it should be done with all the body of elders there.

It's not something you just get one and try to get him on your side. I think it should be all the body of elders that are going to be there when it's something of greater importance. Very good.

I mean, hopefully you have enough confidence in the overseers that you're not intimidated. I think that's what you're saying, that you're intimidated. Now, I mean, you have the word of God in your hand.

And if that's your conviction, you go with your conviction. And, you know, if they are genuine shepherds, they're not going to intimidate you. And hopefully there's a relationship built up over time.

You know, now, if all I am is a rabble rouser and a troublemaker, you know, they may look at me and say, oh, no, here he comes again. But, you know, if I have supported the oversight all along and now there's something that I see, you know, I think, you know, wise men. So you would be thinking of it in terms of something that a particular elder has perhaps taught publicly or said or acted in such a way that you would approach them.

Yeah, I think what the others were thinking of earlier was something more a decision of the oversight as a whole. I think that's the difference. Yeah.

And this really highlights, again, an unfortunate, almost a handicap that overseers have, is that when someone does come to one overseer, how free is he to say everything he thinks? He has to think through the implications, even if he personally may agree with that complaint, he needs to be cautious as to how he responds to that. And this, unfortunately, does create rifts and problems within the oversight and the assembly when one overseer will agree and then backtracks when he gets back with the others. And so there's integrity, you know, that is at stake here.

That's exactly the reason why I suggested what I did. Yeah. Yeah, I think what they call collegiality of oversight is a crucial thing because you simply cannot have a situation where you find yourself acting on your own and then discovering that you don't have the support of your brethren.

And that is why I feel right across the board in the assembly, when you're thinking about even having a speaker come to the hall, I think you should speak to your brethren just to make sure they're happy with who it is that you have in mind to come. Because you do discover in life that breadth of experience is a very valuable asset. And dealing again with the issues that arise in assembly life, it's always wise to talk.

And even if you, what I feel myself, if I don't agree with Robert and Ernie and Robert and Ernie's mind prevail in the matter, I then identify myself with a joint decision and don't try and say, well, that's nothing to do with me. I think you've got to move together. Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. That also makes it a challenge. And I ended up being involved at one point with a group in the assembly who were not happy with decisions the elders had made.

And there was a definite rift and in attempting to bring some kind of unity and so on, I got involved in talking with them together and bringing them together. And one of the things that I noticed happening was that when these believers would raise their issue or objection, the elders sat there and said absolutely nothing. And I realized that that was a very negative thing happening.

And I didn't know whether it was because they didn't want to, one didn't want to speak for all, but they should have said so. And they should have said, I can't answer that right now, but we will talk about it and get back to you. So I'm just offering that suggestion as we have to be very careful, those who are leading and overseeing, that you don't brush off people, you don't treat them with contempt.

You don't let give them that impression that what concerns them doesn't matter. You should convey care and sincerity. Validate, validate their concerns, if nothing else, validate it.

And now there are some traps. This is more for the sake of overseer. There are some traps.

One I almost fell into someone coming to you and saying an individual believer coming to you individually as an overseer saying, if I tell you something, will you keep this confidential? Now, that sounds like, oh, it's kind of flattering, you know, and then they tell you something that really needs to be known by the oversight and you've given your word. The best thing to say is you'll have to have confidence in me to do what is best with what you tell me. If they won't go any further, that's the end of the conversation.

You don't want to get put into a box where either you've got to, what I say, go against your word or live with something that should not be lived with. So you've got to be careful of traps people can put you in. I had an email last week, my brother told me that he'd spoke to an elder about something, got an answer and he took it.

That was the mind of the elderhood. We'd heard nothing about it, not a thing. And it would have been a different answer.

But and this is what you have to be careful. When you're speaking one on one, let them know it's your mind unless you've spoke to your brethren and it's a mind of the elderhood. Otherwise, it's just your mind.

And be very careful. That's another trap. This brother is now in a quandary.

Maybe it would be better that you didn't give your mind and talk to your other brethren before you gave it. Good idea. OK, I don't want to cut anyone off.

Do any of our brethren have any comments to make? If not, we want to move to Hebrews 13. Yes, brother, very sure. OK, the question that our brother has asked is, how do those who are in leadership recognize, I assume you mean by recognize, not formally recognize, but recognize who God is raising up? I don't think that's maybe as much of a mystery as we sometimes make it be, make it to be.

I think it becomes fairly obvious with time. Number one, character becomes evident, as our brother Alan has mentioned, character and consistency. And then the care.

Do they have a care for the people of God? Are they are they the ones who visit those people in the hospital? Are they the people who are inviting people to their homes to show hospitality? The myriad of things that mark those that have a care for the people of God. And you begin to see that manifested in different ones, both in their prayer life, in the assembly, as well as in their behavior. And I think you as you see that, then you have the opportunity to foster it, to encourage it.

And then as time goes on, as that develops even more than to bring them along further. Maybe some you don't become an overseer overnight. No, no.

Can't we're going to say just say sometimes it's the troubles that bring out who is an overseer. John chapter 10, the hireling flees when he sees the wolf coming. The shepherd takes the consequences.

Very good. There must also be heresies among you. Yeah, that's one of the most amazing statements of scripture.

So maybe what does that mean that then that are approved might be known among you? It takes trouble in a meeting, oftentimes for the good men to step out. Yeah, very good. Very good point to me there.