The Assembly: Consecrated - Sin and discipline (Part 1)

So we got two questions, and the first one, are there any reasons, other opinions, as to why new elders are not announced? I really don't know. I just take the principle of the word of God that God is a God of, he's an author, order, fusion. So I think there has to be fervency in the things of God.

It shouldn't be like a sloppy run business. There should be order, but I know there's others I could maybe look at, I don't know, something else, but I don't really have much to answer other than that. Anyone wanna say something else or no? Okay, here's number two.

In reference to being submissive to an elder, what do you do when there is obvious disunity among elders as well as obvious scriptural error? That's a big one. Obviously, the first thing you do is pray. We could bring up examples in the Bible like 3 John, diographies who love to have the preeminence.

Was Gaius told to leave? No. We find out, though, that he was spiritually growing. Physically, there was harm in his body, but spiritually, he was growing.

The spirit of God, as we know, leads a person to an assembly. I'll end with this. If you were traveling to Corinth, would you go there on Sunday? Boy, there's an awful lot of sin going on in there.

But what did they have? They still had Christ in the midst. Go to the book of Revelation. There's a woman in fire-tire, she's preaching.

What do you find in chapter one? It's still called the golden lampstand. So there's these things, my father told me, there's things that you will face that are just bigger than you and I can fix. There's where you pray about it, and finally, if there are scriptural errors, I don't believe there's nothing wrong.

Elders should be approachable. I don't believe there's anything wrong with me quietly sitting down with the elders, stating this is what I feel is wrong. Then leave it there.

Walk away, don't get a group. Just leave it there. You've voiced your opinion based on the word of God, and I believe that God will honor you for that.

All right. Very good. Let's read in Matthew chapter 18, and appreciate all those who are willing to stay for the last part of the Bible study for the day anyway.

Matthew chapter 18, and starting from verse 15. Before I read it, I'd like to just bring out a few things that I hope will be helpful as we go through these verses. There are three stages that are set before us when it comes to this sort of discipline, and we have those three stages, I believe, and three are two different aspects, and we're going to go through that as we read it, and I'll bring it to your attention with the help of the Lord.

Verse 15, moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother, but if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established. I am very sorry.

Verse 15 has to do with stage number one, step number one on this restoration, which we hope to be. Step number two is in verse number 16, and then in verse number 17 is the third step. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church, but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

Now put it in reverse order. Verse number 18 ties in with verse number 17. Verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven.

And whatsoever ye shall lose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven. Verse 19 and verse 20 have to do with the second step. Again, I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done unto them of my Father, which is in heaven.

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Verse 21 goes back to relate, I believe, to verse number 15. Then came Peter to him and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me? And I forgive him till seven times.

And then we have the parable that the Lord Jesus Christ said when it comes to this problem that has created or creeped in between a couple of brothers and sisters or whatever it might be. God or the Lord Jesus is giving us an example, telling us how to deal with these kinds of issues. They're not just to be neglected, not just to be saying, well, I hope it will go away type thing.

There is a scriptural and an honorable way to deal with problems between brethren and sisters. Now, the first thing that we find here is we like to look at the personality or how personally this is that we are dealing with. It is between thee and him alone.

That word alone, I think, is very important. The tendency among many is if I have a problem with a brother or a sister, well, I gotta get on the phone. I have to tell others.

I have to see if I can get another, a little following behind me to support me. That's not the right way. The right way is to keep this as small as possible.

And the only way you can do that is for you to go to him alone. And when you go to him, you have to go to him and remember that he is your brother or your sister. As being a brother or being a sister, and we've heard of a lot of this already about the family fellowship we have with one another, here you find that as a brother, that means we are in the same family.

That means we have the same life that is in the family. And that also means that we come from the same birth, born again, and we have the same father. We're in the family of God.

And that's what makes this so important. And even something that we have to consider with great amount of prayer and tenderness. We're brethren and sisters in Christ.

What's your attitude as you go? Well, I was thinking of the verses in Psalms 133, I think it is. How good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. It's my family.

And God wants us to work together and live together as a unity. But I noticed too in Psalms 133, when it speaks of that, it talks about the ointment that goes down on the beard of Aaron. It's coming down.

And then it goes in, it says about that, it's a precious ointment that ran down. And then it says it went down, and then like the dew of the heaven, it descended upon. That teaches me something.

If there's going to be true unity in the assembly, has to come from above. It comes down upon us. It's part of the enjoyment that we have of being in the family of God, of being in the assembly of God.

So this unity is something that we need to protect and work up with. Now the thing is here, it says, in the problem is he trespassed against thee. I linked that with verse number 21, where Peter says, if my brother sins against me.

So there's a correlation here between these two verses. I don't want to go too much more on that, but the point is, is that something has happened. There is a trespass, there's a sin, there's a guilt that took place, and it needs to be dealt with.

So then what's the remedy? Go. Go. You say, well, do I really have to talk to him? So the Bible says, go.

I suggest that that is a very hard part of this whole process, to go. And it takes a tremendous exercise to go. If you look at verse, what is it, verse number 12, going up a few minutes, a few verses up.

He says, if a man have a hundred sheep and one of them is gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine and goeth into the mountains and seeketh that which is gone astray? In other words, this is a man that's coming with a shepherd heart. And he sees that there's a difficulty in what's happening here, and I am going to give it my very best. I'm going to go no matter how far I have to go, no matter how high the mountain.

I'm going to span the distance and go and tell my brother, as a shepherd would in love to his sheep. And then the reason for all this is that thou might gain thy brother. That should always be the number one reason, reason for going to someone on a situation like this, that I might gain my brother.

And in gaining him, I reestablish the fellowship that once we had with each other. But, if you go back up to verse 13, we saw verse 12, the shepherd going out to the whole distance. But in verse 13, he gives us a little warning.

If so be, that he find it. In other words, in Luke chapter 15, it's when he finds the sheep that was lost. Here it is a brother that's offended.

If so be, you should find it. In other words, I think it shows how important it is, and how difficult it can be to win a brother or sister that has been offended. And bring them back into that fellowship with each other.

Stage two, I just now, that's all I'm gonna say in verse one. The first part, and I'll real quickly hit the next two parts. It's not now a personal thing.

It's still though, it's a private thing. Because it's not something that's being whispered about and bammied around from brother to brother and sister to sister. This brother has come, he's been refused.

He didn't hear him. And he now comes to the elders. And I think in the context, I think it needs to be the elders.

Because it's gonna be told to the church if it continues. And so he comes to the elders. And the elders go with him.

And it's still a private matter. In the sense that it's not circling out among the assemblies at this particular time. Then in the third part, it says, it becomes a public matter.

If he shall neglect to hear them. You got two times in verse, what is it? Verses 16, in verse 16 you have the, if he hears thee not. But now we have a stronger word.

If he neglects to hear thee. He refuses to hear thee. And so now the point is that this person has taken on a rebellious, a stubborn attitude in the matter that is being dealt with here.

And he not only neglects now to hear the elders and the individual who's involved, but he neglects to hear the church as well, the assembly as well. And so I just will leave it at that point here now. And we'll try to open up a little bit here in verse 15 and see what our brethren have to say.

I have to say this, I got permission to do this. We're gonna divide up in four sections because we have four sections. Approximately 20 minutes per section.

And so we'll see how we can get along here with the help of the Lord. And you quoted Psalm 133. Yes.

With the oil, should speak of the spirit. And it going down to the garment, it would go over the breastplate. Good.

So you have the stones, all precious. We're all precious, but the spirit unites us, even though we're all different. Love that, that's nice.

Just in connection with that, Brother Bill and Tom, you, verse 10, take heed that you despise not one of these little ones. And then there's the heavenly representation spoken of as the angel before the face of my father. It's the recognition of heaven's values.

Amen. One of these little ones, a child of the kingdom. And then that feeds into the thought of the recovery of one who has gone astray, the sheep, and going after it, and if you can find it.

I appreciated how you linked that with verse 15, because that would be the attitude, it would be like a shepherd caring attitude as you go to see this brother. And you could even link him with more of the chapter in the earlier parts. As a child, he comes with humility.

And he comes not with an arrogant spirit, I'm better than you type thing, he's taking the lowest place. I remember seeing a, or read on something that there was two mountain goats, a man was standing in a place where he could see these two mountain goats, and they were coming along on this ridge, and as they came to the place where they were going to meet, very small ridge, he thought, this is gonna be fun to watch. And here they come like this, head to head, horns to horn.

One of those mountain goats got down on his knees and allowed the other one to go over the top. I thought, there's a good example of what we have here. That a person, you don't go there with an arrogant spirit, you don't go there, you go with humility.

If you should be able to win your brother back, you should be able to win your sister. I take it that we all agree that this is not doctrinal error, and it's not the immorality that's gonna be spoken of in First Corinthians. So this is an interpersonal issue, which I always link with Philippians.

And the way to overcome the interpersonal issue is by humility in Philippians, isn't it? There are some manuscripts, though I do drop the against thee wording. So it's a brother who sins. He has evidently gone astray from the shepherd.

We could say that at least. So you become aware of a brother who is sinning, and how is that gonna be dealt with? And then this procedure follows. Would he be the one that stumbles the other? Which is the he here? Well, the one that was in the wrong.

Oh. Well, that sinned. I think he stumbled the weaker brother.

But anyhow, we're gonna say, there are three things that are absolutely necessary in every assembly, there's more than three, but three I have in mind is lowliness. That's the beginning of the chapter. They were arguing about who is going to be greater in the kingdom.

And then the other thing is holiness. And then there's the spirit of forgiveness. And why would I have to be lowly? Or why should I be lowly? Because the one in the midst is lowly.

How could I be anything else? How could I allow sin to come into the assembly? The one in the midst is holy. And did he ever forgive us? For sure. Forgiving one another and dealing tenderly with them.

Ephesians four. Brother Tom, if you don't mind, if I just ask you, Brother William, did I misunderstand you? You agreed with Brody that this is not dealing with moral. Yes, but the words against the, you'll notice.

I do. Are dropped by the Sinaticus, the B. But just for the people of God, we wanna make sure that we understand just that comment that was made. If it's a moral sin or doctrinal sin later in the New Testament it can't be cleared up by just I come to you and I'm saying sorry and it's over with.

Exactly. Because we're gonna find that in 1 Corinthians five that there has to be discipline. So this is a sin where he's gone away from the shepherd, I take it, at least.

It may be against you if the words are there. But he has sinned. Now we are to care for him enough to try to win him out of that.

And if he will acknowledge the wrong, well and good, you've won your brother. That's great. It goes no further.

It doesn't appear on Facebook, it doesn't appear on the telephone, it's not gonna be published. You've won your brother, there it ends. So these are, sorry, go ahead, Gil.

I just want to have a short discussion about the trespass offering under the Levitical system. And if you regain your brother or gain him back, there is a fifth part added there too. Is there any thoughts that you have about the relationship between these two that are reunited? Yes, I was thinking, what was this offense? We don't really know, do we? But do we have any examples from the scriptures? I believe the trespass offering does give us some examples.

You remember in the trespass offering in chapter five of Leviticus, it's the individual who did something unawares. He didn't realize he did it. And I believe that this can happen in an assembly.

Somebody's been offended and the person offended them, they weren't even aware that they did it. In fact, if I have time, I'll tell you about a case like that. So that was a person that did it unawares.

But then in chapter six, there's another person, or same thing, there's an embezzlement that's taking place. A misappropriation of funds. Somebody entrusted them with some money or whatever the case may be, a cow, a sheep or whatever, and they mishandled it and they lost it.

And so that could be a problem. You can imagine what could arise from that. But then there's thievery.

Somebody stole something. And then there's an extortioner who demands out of violence, you gotta give me this. And then there's another person who he found something and he knows it belongs to another person and he doesn't give it back to that person.

So I wonder if some of these things could be found in the trespass offering. To go to yours, the fifth part, it says that on the trespass offering that there always had to be a ram that was without spot. There wasn't a variety at most of the offerings as there is.

But in this one, it was always a ram that had to be offered. And then the fifth part, I think, is what our Lord Jesus Christ did in Psalms chapter 69, that he restored that which he took not away. It does say sin here instead of trespass offering.

Right, it does. So really, it's saying, but it is, well anyway. It's falling short of the mark, like Romans 3.23, missing the mark.

Final comment then regarding that was, if a brother, the offended brother is the one who is active and seeking the trespass. But when they are reunited, the fifth part there too, I think the teaching is they are closer than ever before. Yes, that's good.

They are together. Very good, I like that. So isn't the idea here then that there are two distinctive sins.

The first one is more on a private, personal level, if you wanna say. It's not something that requires any action on the assembly. It's someone who just, out of care for someone else, sees someone going astray, like you've said.

But what has happened is because this man now has steeled himself against that uncovering of that or discovering of it, he then, now it is ratcheted up. It is elevated now to now the level of rebelliousness. And now that it has been made known, unflushed, flushed out as it were, he, it is now affecting the company now.

There's a disturbance in the company. So now, is that how you would take it? I look, yes. I think that's what's happening.

And this is not new teaching. It was found in the law in Leviticus 19.17. Thou shalt not hit thy brother in thine heart. Thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor and not suffer sin upon him.

So they were, under law, there was this idea as well. You were to go and see him. So why do you see this, Tom, in this gospel alone? Because there's nothing else mentioned in the other gospels of this nature, especially about the church and so on.

This is unique. Well, you were bringing out earlier about the difference between the word church, the universal church, if we can use that phrase for everyone, and then now this is the first time the word church is used, and it's in a local aspect. And is that what you're saying? Is that what you're thinking? Yeah, well, second time it's used, right? 16, it was used first, and then 18.

That's what I'm saying. I'm sorry, I didn't say 16. 16, and then now 18.

Yeah, so why in Matthew's gospel is this brought out, these dealings of the church? That's what I'm saying. You have something in mind, tell us. Well, I was just thinking that it's in relation to the kingdom.

It's in relation to governmental truth, Matthew's gospel. But it's also to show the distinction of his kingdom versus the kingdoms of men, that in the kingdoms of men, these things are covered over. In the kingdoms of men, this is how men elevate themselves, but not in God's kingdom.

And so I think there's a contrast between not only the king, the governing head, but as well how things are dealt with in his government. And is there not to the aspect that this was what God intended for the nation of Israel, him ruling through the nation of Israel to the whole world. They failed.

Now, we have to guard against us failing, because God is now governing through us, right? Right, by chapter 12 in Matthew, the king is rejected. Then you have the mysteries in relation to the kingdom, that there is a delay for the kingdom to come, that's chapter 13. You have the universal church introduced in chapter 16, because that's going to be in this period, right, this period before the king comes again.

And also the local church aspect is brought in here in chapter 18. Yeah, very good. Yeah, it was very common in Roman history, especially with the way they dealt with their enemies and dealt with wars.

If someone was wounded, they would often have to put them, they would put them down, so that the forces could move on together in unity and power. In this case, the Lord is showing, this is not how this government works, this is not how this kingdom, we will not leave any man behind, so to speak, we want to bring them along. They were looking for a kingdom to be established.

Well, they had said that in verse one. Yeah, but he's showing them that they need to be born again, need to be humble. If they were humble, they wouldn't be stumbling or offending one another.

So the one or two here that you take with you, they would be reliable witnesses? I take it that was required under the law too, wasn't it? Right, yes, yeah, that every word might be established. I think the reason why I say, I suggest it should be an elder or elders in the assembly, is because of what it moves on to in the third stage, and that it has to be spread to the assembly. So you're still trying to keep it in as small a group as possible, but you bring these other people into it so that this person can sense the offense that he's, and the seriousness of this offense, and hopefully he will listen.

That's the word here, is listen, take heed to what is being said to him. So these steps are preemptive before discipline. Yes, yes.

And I think that if we realize that the entire scriptures teach a necessary discipline, but there are preemptive measures that can come before. If this man expresses humility, a little bit of self-awareness, and confesses his wrong, forsakes it. And it stops.

The Lord Jesus himself taught, the greatest faith that ever saw was one taking the low place, humbling themselves, and then they're exalted. Any advice I've sought to give to anybody, preachers, I hope I say to myself, when it comes into a situation, brethren, you'll always win by taking the low ground. Take the low ground.

So these witnesses, I take it they were not necessarily witnesses of the original sin, the original offense. But they are witnesses to this second stage, as he's approached a second time. They're witnesses to that.

That's what they're witnessing. Yeah, the conversation that's gonna be taking place here with this man that's been offended. And I think that's important, because this is a very serious thing that's gonna be taking place here.

If this person is put out, it has to be on solid ground. It has to be that there's no doubts about what's being taken place. Joel, you had a question or something? I was gonna say that I don't believe we should minimize this by just saying it's an offense between brethren.

It's the word that indicates a sin or a trespass. And I take it that what he has done is something that this brother is concerned about, and he continues to do it. He's going to be eventually out of fellowship.

So he wants to maintain that fellowship and do everything possible to maintain it by going to it first and seeking to point that out. If we link verse 21 with this, then the initial approach is to forgive him until 70 times, if it's against you personally. So this could be a sin, as our brother's indicating, that is outside of that realm of against you, see? And it's in his interest that he's recovered from it.

So you go after that sheep which is lost. So the assembly's interest as well. Right, exactly.

They want to maintain their fellowship as much as possible. So you're not taking this then that it is not necessarily a continuation in that sin, or are you taking it? Or really, it's a level of rebelliousness. Yeah, it's getting escalated.

Yeah. Because he's not listening. Right, right.

He's not acknowledging that he's wrong. Right, but so it's not just the continuation in this sin that he refuses to give up. It is the escalation of rebelliousness as is the sin of witchcraft.

Right, it's like idolatry. The sin that he commits is not one called for discipline. Exactly.

It's his attitude toward it. Yeah, exactly. Right, okay.

Actually, what he is doing is putting himself out of fellowship. Yeah, and one more point that needs to be emphasized. This passage has been used ad nauseum for, I say it carefully to use that expression because it has nothing to do with this, that a local assembly can get down to just two people, you know? And it's, you know, this is the teaching of Matthew, the twos and threes.

This passage has nothing to do with weakness. That's right. It has everything to do with witness.

And so there's a distinction, obviously, between this. And the two or three here, you would have to have at least two or three to carry out the witness and then the elders and the church to carry it out with. So there has to be much more than that.

Right, so then in verse number 17, if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee, the church. So it's gone beyond the individual. And now as we find out, these elders are actually speaking on behalf of heaven.

So that amplifies the sin of rebellion, see? So there's individuals that find this hard to imagine. I thought you could only be excommunicated for moral sin and doctrinal error. This man is excommunicated for rebellion, refusing to hear the word of God.

He wouldn't listen to the witnesses. They had something to say, and he didn't listen. And then it's told to the church.

And I take it there would be a delay, an opportunity for him to repent, right? But he doesn't listen to the church. And then he's disciplined. And when that procedure is followed, verse 18 now, that is the action of heaven.

It's been ratified already in heaven, this procedure. So if I could just get you to answer this, because I had an oversight one day, I was speaking to him in the car, and I was just bringing up the grammar of the words here, what's bound in heaven, what's bound in earth, and so on and so forth. He said, I thought that heaven rubber-stamped what we did on earth.

And I said, oh, dear brother, no. The grammar would show that heaven's already made their decision. Here is why we need to pray for our elders.

They're trying to seek the mind of God. And now they're passing that. So the offense is greater when you see it.

He's not just saying no to a group of men. He's saying no to the very God of heaven. Like that is how solemn the passage is.

Our brother Tom was emphasizing, or at least he set out the chiasm in the passage here, which means simply it reverses in order as you go through. So it's one-on-one, two or three with you, then the church, then the action of the church, verse 18, then verse 19 and 20, the two or three again, and then verse 21, the one-on-one, right? So you get that structure. And where you find that kind of structure in our Bibles, the emphasis always falls in the center.

That's it. So what's the center? It's the action of the church in discipline. And that's the focal point of this.

It's for the good of the assembly that this procedure is followed. Not only the action, but the authority that the church has to conduct the discipline. Right, and the authority, Brody, of the two or three that went to visit that man.

Because there am I in the midst of that. See, they're coming not just on their own authority. It is with the presence of the Lord at that second stage.

That's 1 Corinthians 5 in the name. Right, and I believe that if this procedure was followed more often and understood amongst us, there would be less of this butting heads and I'm out of here, right? There would be more recovery done amongst us. So William, you see the two or three, the presence of the Lord in verse 20, particularly in association with the first group of two or three witnesses that come.

That at that point, it's elevated to that official status. Exactly. I agree.

With the authority of the Lord behind it. That's what the context is teaching the two or three to be. Absolutely, yeah.

And I believe that is, were you gonna say something, Murray? No. Okay, I believe that is what you were saying there in verse, one of you, or verse 18. What's bound and bind in hearth shall be bound in heaven.

And my mind goes to Jacob. Yes. And he has this vision and there's a ladder that's going from heaven to earth and earth to heaven.

And there he is and he sees all this happening and he awakes to it and he's just, he's overcome with the fact that I'm in the very presence of God. This is his house. But what it's teaching us is that in his house, God's government is carried out.

He talks about the gates and I believe this is the place where God's government is carried out. And it's not so much that heaven has to agree with us. It's really not that heaven has to agree with us.

We are supposed to agree with heaven. It's bound in heaven and it's bound on earth. And three times you have that expression in these verses that we've read together.

And so I believe that it's a beautiful thing to see what the assembly is. It is a place where God's word and work is being carried out. We are linked with heaven.

There's a spot in heaven where God is and there's a spot on earth where God's house is. And it's a privilege to be a part of that. It's really the idea of the picture of kingdom and I wanna be careful because the kingdom is something totally different.

But it's the idea of the kingdom rule on earth in house of God. That that is the gate of heaven. That this is where heaven's administration is seen as an outpost on earth itself.

So then in verse 19, we all know, well, maybe not everyone, but there's different words for ask in the Bible. Ask of an equal or ask of someone higher. So look at how the spirit of God in verse number 19.

Anything that they shall ask, it's the Greek word for ask of a higher power. So these men are not by themselves. There's a tremendous encouragement here, dear elders.

God is very interested in this personal offense. And he wants to try to get it fixed and done because it's going to affect the fellowship of the whole assembly, right? So there's that resource of the God of heaven wanting to guide and lead the oversight here. While the elders would likely be involved today, the initiator of this in verse 15 need not necessarily be an elder.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. But I guess I just want to make sure I understood your comments correctly.

You do see this context as being a disciplinary action of an assembly. I know it starts out private, but it escalates up. So this is the oversight moving on behalf of the assembly to discipline.

Yeah. Yeah. The idea of discipline though, is, I mean, even the word disciple is carried.

So really what's trying to be done at the very beginning is to set things straight, to discipline, to disciple, to make right. The reason I say that is because I could tell you a story of an individual back home where I came from many, many, many years ago. He stood up one day, not an elder, and he says, I'm reading myself out of this assembly.

He had no authority to do that. I don't have any authority to put myself into the assembly unless the elders confer with heaven, same thing. So here is my pet peeve with this.

I want my oversight to understand the authority you have by the risen head. Please don't stand up and say, now so-and-so has asked to be removed from the fellowship of this assembly, and we agree. That makes it look like you're following them.

State, you don't even have to mention a lot of it, just say, so-and-so is being removed from the fellowship of this assembly. That is a God-given authority that you have been given, and that would be proven by 1 Corinthians chapter five. Let me ask a question, because William brought this up, Tom, and maybe you could clarify a little, because I have never really heard this explained.

The step there, the intermediate step, I've always heard the person going to him privately, and then the two or three witnesses, and then all of a sudden it seems to leapfrog over telling it to the church, and then that delay, I appreciated that, to the church, almost as giving him opportunity again to repent. And so, and then finally the discipline action, because this man will not hear. How would you carry that out? How would an assembly carry that out? The part, like the three witnesses, the two or three have come, the man refuses, now tell it to the church, and how would he hear the church? What would be the setting of that? Very good.

Well, do you have something to say? I'm just saying very good. That is a very good question, because here's another question. Have you ever been aware of this procedure being followed according to this passage? No, no, that's exactly what I meant.

Well, yes, in a sense. To the first stage, where there was a party in ours, two people, that was a problem, okay? They came to us, and they talked to us, and we said, it's not to our, it's not our level right now, it's just between you two. And so they did resolve the problem, and it was such a joy to our hearts, as leaders, to see them hand in hand, and enjoying one another's fellowship.

It stopped there. We don't have to know anymore. Even as leaders, we don't have to know anymore.

They took care of it. But now, if they didn't take care of it, it would escalate, as you kept saying, it would escalate to this new level. And this person has to be disciplined, because he's causing the problems in the assembly that he is, but he didn't lose the status of being a brother.

We treat him as a heathen and a publican. There is always that possibility of restoration down the road. He's still a brother in Christ, and we have to remember that.

But as far as your question, I think that what we're really dealing with here is that, just like I think Brother Williams said, is that there's the third, in the third step, there's two steps. And there is the idea of allowing that person to have the opportunity to listen to what is being told to him. But if he refuses to listen, then we go in and he has to be told to the assembly.

I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but. Well, I'm just wondering how, and again, I would just ask this. There are elders here that have many years' experience.

Have any of you carried this out or seen this done, where it is prior to the excommunication of a person, it has been presented to the entire assembly for his opportunity to repent and change prior to, that the next step. Has anyone ever carried that out or seen that done as an overseer? There's another thing I've seen this used wrongly. Right.

That somebody was offended and. It was brought to two or three witnesses. The witnesses weren't what they were used as, as judges.

Both parties presented their side of the case, and then the two or three listened to it and determined who was right and who was wrong. There's no question here. Moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, the Lord says he was trespassed against, there's no question.

But these witnesses are not being witnesses, they're being judges. And that's not where this is used. So you're saying the next step then was to excommunicate him.

No, I appreciated what you said. What they were witnessing was the attitude of the one to the two or three witnesses, not the incident. Right, right, okay.

It's hard to talk with your. But Brother Frank, is there not the principle in the Bible then that sin rebuked before all? So there is a warning to the people of God that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. So where is that point? There's the wisdom, the oversight, where we should be praying for them.

When does it come to the point where they're afraid that the innocent are gonna be affected? We're given time for this thing to heal. And would the oversight not want the prayers of the people of God to try to help the situation? So then we're put on notice, and they have to be careful the details they give out. We're not trying to embarrass the individual in front of everybody, but this is wrong.

Something has to be happening. We're on guard, they're on guard. So is that kind of? You would have to rehearse your saying from the beginning, what initiated them, and we have spoken to him.

Two or three witnesses have spoken. Now we are bringing it before the church to let you know that in both cases, this behavior is not tolerated, it is not scriptural, it is not fitting. And now we're giving him one more opportunity, and we're saying this before the company.

That's what I see. That seems to be how it would unfold. That seems pretty.

But let's go, oh God, sorry. It links in too with Titus three, doesn't it? Yes. Absolutely.

The heretic. After the first and second admonition, a third step reject. And the whole purpose of admonition is for the shame aspect.

Because then they're, depending on the severity of the air, there could be like a social injunction of withdrawing. So the brother or sister feels, I am out of step here, right? So we're kind of mixing into the doctrinal excommunication and moral things. The publican, the publican, and the heathen and the publican.

Right, that would be a Jewish expression. The heathen, religiously. He's put out.

Publican, socially, in the Jewish context. No contact. Yeah, very good.

But just back to what you had mentioned, brother, as this man also, or this person also, has the potential of showing he was never saved. He's not listening to the God of heaven. That is a pretty serious charge.

But in our perspective, we're to look at him still as a brother. We're wary, we're hoping for restoration. There's a mixture in the Gospel of Matthew with what is real and what is false.

And I wondered, how could a person be a Christian and not repent? Well, that's the greater question. There's something radically wrong. If an overseer or their brethren, if they can explain to him why he's wrong, why would he not repent? And I have wondered, I'm not making a definite statement, but I've wondered if this man was really saved.

Do you wonder if maybe that's why earlier in the chapter, it says, if so be he, find him. There's a possibility that this person may never be recovered. But he is called a brother.

He's a brother, yeah, that's the point. The Lord called him a brother. Yeah, but in Matthew's Gospel, you have men with talents and they're cast into utter darkness and you would think they were a genuine person that was given a gift.

Yeah, the overriding, when you say Brother Tom, the overriding principle of the whole thing is protection. They're protecting the company. That's right.

They're protecting this man that's offended. It's for his good. They're protecting the man that has been accused of or whatever has happened to him.

So it's the thought of protection. I like to see that in oversight, especially a new work of that where men are raised up and they're seeking to protect that company. You know about it, what I'm talking about.

Ultimately, it's not who wins, who loses. Who ends up last dog wins. It's a protection of the company.

If that's so, God is gonna be honored. Right, and there's order here too. I think that's important because just from a practical standpoint, I know you wanna move on, but this isn't a meeting that's done willy-nilly.

It's just kind of tacked on to something else. This is the calling together of the company to do this. According to 1 Corinthians 5, that would also support that.

When you are gathered together too. The other thing is that it's a solemn thing. I've been in discipline meetings where a brother got up and says, let's, shall we sing number five? And how do you sing? How do you sing a hymn? You know, so just from a practical standpoint, it is solemn and yet the desire is to see restoration, to see the holiness of the house, the others may fear, all these things enter into that.

That's why it's seen as a distinct meeting in 1 Corinthians 5. Hey, wait a minute, we're going there next. That'll give you the bridge. Tom, if I could just for one second summarize.

The end result is to preserve and to protect and to honor God, but that's done on both sides of this, right? If the extreme measure is necessary, God is honored. The saints are protected for their good. But if grace is shown and patience and the effective result is seen before that, then everyone is preserved as well.

Yeah, the whole, what we were listening to earlier about the assembly, the elders, the overseers, the whole purpose is that they are to protect the flock. They're there to preserve the assembly, to preserve the people of God. And sometimes it might be that this may be going on and what other people can see, but the elders are knowing the situation better.

Maybe they're going a little slower than what maybe others would want them to, but it's important to do it and to do it right. Because if it's not done right, it could be devastating. Now we must- Just one little thing about the two or three.

Yes. We said the assembly wasn't planned to be like that, but some assemblies do go down to the two or three. They can be.

I mean, we don't remove the lampstand. I thought when the priesthood was inaugurated in Israel, there were only five and then two were taken. So there was three, but they could still function as priests.

So an encouragement for small companies. Yes, that's true. Very good.