The Assembly: Consecrated - Sin and discipline (Part 2)

Okay, 1st Corinthians in chapter 5, 1st Corinthians chapter 5 and we'll read verses 3 through 5. This is Paul speaking to the assembly there in Corinth or writing to them, for I barely as absent in body but present in spirit have judged already as though I were present concerning him that had so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ when you're gathered together and my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. So we have here two thoughts, I have first of all the declaration of Paul, he is telling them I'm not there, in fact he was, if you go to the last chapter of 1st Corinthians you'll find that he was in Ephesus and he was working on a great work that was going on there.

So he's not there but he tells them even though in my absence he said absent in body, present in spirit as though I were present. So he's already noticing or knows what to be done and he is giving these believers there and the elders at the assembly of Corinth the guidance and what to do. And he assesses the situation, he says I have judged already, I think it's five times in this chapter you have that word judge.

In other words it's a legal matter, in a legal court and it is God's court and it is in God's assembly. So this is something that is very important, we'll get into this I'm sure for a few minutes anyway. If you go to chapter 6 you'll have the same word over I think it's five or six times and in there you might have the word go to law, go to law with, but it's the idea of a legal court that is being exercised in the assembly at that place in Corinth.

And then do you think of the accountability of this individual that is guilty, the damage that that he has done, who has done this deed. It's the same word that you have in chapter 3 that our works will be analyzed and will be put through the fire as it were and with only that which is done for Christ will last, the gold, silver and the precious stone. Here's a man, he's going to have his works analyzed as well, this deed that he has done and it's going to suffer loss and the awful tragedy behind all of that.

But then we already have the authority of the assembly, we've been hearing already about that, it's in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the power of the Lord Jesus and that name is the ultimate authority for gathering and it's the ultimate authority for having to put somebody away. It's God's supreme court, you might say, in dealing with these matters. But there's one more part, and one of my brethren mentioned this already, but the attendance of the assembly.

Who's going to be there? I personally don't believe, brethren, when you have this phrase, when you're gathered together, it is a separate assembly meeting. It is something that is not tacked on to the end of the breaking of bread meeting. I think it's something that it's a place or a time when we, as an assembly, we gather together, first of all, to show our support for the elders who have made, by the Word of God, have had to do this awful thing of putting somebody away.

We support the brethren for doing this. But not only that, it's a time when we can all pray. Wouldn't it be important to pray for this person who has fallen into this sin? Pray that God would restore them back to the assembly fellowship someday, which would happen later on, and pray to God that preserve us, preserve us, because we are all made of the same flesh.

Yes, we do have the Spirit of God within us, and yes, God has justified us through the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. All of that is ours, but it's easy to fall away. But when we come together, it's an assembly meeting when this has to be done, and I feel like the whole assembly should be there in attendance to what needs to be done here.

Then the destruction of flesh, just a moment on that, is delivered a person unto Satan. Now, some will say that that's only the Apostle Paul who had that authority, but I do believe that God, the Lord has given the authority to the assembly to do this, and it's the assembly that puts this person away, and God is using even Satan to carry out his will in the life of this individual. Maybe more will be said on that, but we'll open it now for those who would like to help us.

There may be a question arising in the minds of some regarding Matthew 18-20, and if we're understanding that Scripture correctly, we are seeing Matthew 18-20 at the second stage of dealing with this sinning brother. Does that weaken truth about the presence of the Lord in the midst of his people? No, it doesn't, because in 1 Corinthians here, chapter 3, know ye not that the assembly is the temple, the inner sanctuary, the holy of holies of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? And if any man defile the temple of God, him will God defile or corrupt, right? So now, we turn the page, we come to chapter 5. Here's a man who has defiled the temple of God, and it needs to be dealt with. Very good, and the greater context of Corinthians, for this cause many are weak, sickly, and have died, bringing back to chapter 3. That's why I think what the Spirit of God has done.

Look at verse number 2, might be taken away. So that English phrase is the same Greek word in the very last verse. Therefore, put away.

Now, the difference between the two is this, who's doing the action? The first one, it's God doing the action, discipline. The last one is the oversight, the elders, moving with heaven behind them, putting away. So God will allow elders time to administer government in his house, but if we fail to do that, he will step in.

So that's a very solemn lesson that you learn on the whole backdrop of God. Brother Tom, just for the sake of elders that are present, when this unfortunate situation has to take place, it is important that they gather together unitedly, all of them. Not one of them saying, I know situations, more than one, where they said, well that brother won't come, he's just not comfortable with these situations.

None of us are. That's right. More than that, when it's your family.

That's right. Yeah, sometimes a sin may come to light years later. You know, say 25 years ago, it comes to light that this brother sinned in this immoral way, right? Yeah.

And there are those that would say, well, you know, he's repented already and, you know, he's obviously enjoyed the presence of God since then, therefore we don't need to deal with it. That's right. But no, he has defiled the assembly.

That's right. The assembly needs to be cleansed. That's right.

And they are to purge out that leaven, right? Is that not why twice you have in verse 2 and verse 3, this deed. This deed. So it's not looking at a continual, ongoing sin of fornication and all of a sudden, man, we got to do something about this.

So let's be very clear. Recently there's a magazine article written assuming that we can almost, well, as long as it's covered over. Brothers and sisters, that's wrong.

One act of fornication. One act of extortion. You go through it.

God's house must be purged. It's not done with a bitter attitude, but it's done with a respect for the house that belongs to God and we have to follow his guidance. Because you can't improve discipline in the Bible.

God has a method. This country of yours and ours as well suffers from what they call progressive DAs. No longer an eye for an eye now, you know, a hand for an hand.

It's all about rehabilitation. But not at the expense where there's no shame. There's no judgment for the sin.

So we do have to get back to just what the Bible teaches. Let's be clear about it. Let's be clear about it, brothers and sisters.

We have gathered companies where you and I would have once gone that have removed the seed of the unlearned, the backseat, okay, and no longer carry this out. And I know where he is referring to, and I can name you several, sad to say, it's just not being dealt with. It's not right.

There was a situation we had to deal with. A brother was meeting in another place. He did this.

He went to the elders of this particular assembly, confessed what he did. He said, okay. He sat back the following Lord's Day.

They went up to him and said, what are you back here for? He said, because of what I've done. Oh, it's all forgiven. Come on up here.

That has left that young man totally confused. Yes. Even years, years later, he's just like, why? I thought that was supposed to be dealt with.

Then he comes back. Was it dealt right with? Is God happy with me now? Has it been dealt with? So he's been totally confused. Thank you for the seed of the unlearned.

And that's where it's still there today. It's not only for those who have to learn about the assembly to be brought into the assembly where they can see that this is where God's house is and where I want to be, but it's for those who have to be put out of the assembly. There is a place for them.

I was thinking, Tom, of leprosy in the house. Yeah. If it's not dealt with, the whole house can come down.

So it's very important. And here in this context, you have 11 in the house. That's it.

Yeah. And it's the whole house had to be in Exodus, what, 13? Where they had the whole house to go and cleared out all the leaven that was there. Nothing could be left.

So purge out. Go ahead. There's something that was interesting.

Someone told me that my father didn't believe in putting someone out of the fellowship. And I went to him and he said, yeah, I believe it. And I said, you put them out from among you.

They're already out of fellowship when they send. It's not something. So I don't know.

I'm not sure if I'm following you. Well, it doesn't say put them out of the fellowship, put them out from among you. I said, they're already out of fellowship with God's and God's people when they send.

I appreciate that comment, but perhaps for my own clarification, they're out of fellowship. We're not out of the fellowship until the overseers take that step. They're out of fellowship with heaven.

Correct. Right. Yeah.

So I agree with that. But then the assembly must not put them out of the local assembly. Following what has already been understood or accepted.

And it's God that adds to the local and it's God that subtracts from the local. And he does it through the whole assembly. Just a question.

It's kind of addressing a paradox here. So the statement was made earlier in this Bible reading that some situations, and I think we all are aware of some of them, gone on for 25 years, whatever, and it needs to be dealt with. But some of the brethren also said at this time, if we don't, God will step in.

Okay, I guess I'm a little... 25 years he's been going on in this and God hasn't stepped in. So why? I'm just asking a question. Possibility of never saved? They're not a child of God? But he's still linked with that testimony.

You mean God stepping in an intervention? Yeah. Well, God has already stepped in in the procedure. He's to be put out of the company.

Right. That's what he's telling him to do. But I'm saying, okay, I just think, I'm not saying he shouldn't be dealt with.

I'm not saying that. I'm just questioning. We're so strong on that and we say that.

But yet there are assemblies that have seen blessing. They have seen, you know, I just... We're not living in apostolic times. Yeah.

You know that. Okay. Things are more departed and more lenient.

I mean, look at Ananias and Sapphira and so on, how God worked to... So just to get back maybe to the context of this, the first part of the chapter is dealing with this specific man that committed this specific deed. In the last part of the chapter, he's going to say now, these are the things you need to also address if they come up, right? But when you're looking at this overall, there is still the opportunity if the person has not committed it yet, but you see that it could be possible they're lining this up to preempt that. So if we're close to the believers, if we allow people to be close to us, you're too close with that lady at work, right? Oh, that's no... You can't go there.

That's what it leads to. You're right. Right? Now, I'm being absolutely clear that young men need to watch out about spending time alone with young women.

That's right. Because that leads to this. That's right.

And if we see... Excuse me. Older men need to. Yeah.

Thank you, Mark. But we've been talking about... Fully useful. We've been talking about the Internet.

Don't go away from here thinking, oh, well, pornography wouldn't fall under the word fornication. Yes, it would. Child pornography.

Yes, it would. Yeah, that's a different... Like there's so many unclean, wicked, sensual sins that it's almost like people have the idea, well, I could almost do everything with a woman, but no. It's the whole thing starting out wrong.

This is the house of God. Well, you would say that that wickedness is wicked, but it's not the same as the physical connection of fornication that's explained here. We don't want to defile anybody, but there's things that are being taught to our children today in school that would make us literally pull them out of school.

Yes. Because we are unaware of the sexual freedom that is being pushed in this world today. And it's just wrong.

I agree. Absolutely wrong. But the word that's used here, and I go back to Mr. Crawford's book, is a physical act.

Yes, and it could start to define you. That's what you got in Chapter 6, too. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. That the person who is... But with reference to... So, no, I'd just like clarification on that for everyone.

Did you say you also think it was a physical act? Yes. Yes, thank you. And I think that the physical act didn't happen like falling off a cliff.

I think, as you said very well, if you're in the office and you're too close to another person of the opposite sex, back off. Do it now. Yes.

Because it does... That just leads you into the cliff. And then it's too bad. Yes, Brother Joe.

I'm coming back to Frank's question about 25 years. I think we need to understand that at the beginning of any dispensation, God acts in judgment more openly and more directly. And it's a manner that is not seen toward the end.

But in terms of the time factor, how long ago a sin was committed, go back to the sin offering in Leviticus 4. And you find that in relation to the priest, there's no mention of a sin coming to his knowledge. But in the case of the leader and all the rest of the people, if that sin comes to his knowledge, it may have been years ago, he still has to deal with it. That's right.

It can't be ignored. There's a brother back here that has a question here. I have a question that I think is going to be beneficial.

Can we define the railer? Is it a one-time explosion of speaking wrongly? Or is it a continual act? Well, I think this, the fornication, is a one-time act. But I think the railer and those other, the drunkenness and those other things, I think that has more of a continuation thing. It's more of a point where this person, it has happened to us, but a person is railing and railing and railing and railing.

And you have to talk to him, you have to speak to him, you be kind to him, then you have to deal with him. But if it's an ongoing thing, then I believe that you have there. But Brother Tom, could you just help us with, there would be a difference between evil speaking and railing.

We could speak out of turn and say things in the heat of the moment, actually commit a railing act, but characteristically that person need not necessarily be on real alert. It would be proper for that person to go and ask for forgiveness, I didn't mean to do that, I was off, whatever. So the context of railing is always in the context of authority.

Against authority. Where evil speaking, I'm attacking you as a person. Don't.

Railing is the position you hold, right? So I think sometimes railing becomes the catch-all for, I'm not too sure what to read him out for. Oh, railing. That is so wrong.

Can we not get it into our heads that we're dealing with God's business? And there should be a level of respect and, you know, to follow the work. Another thing that needs to be identified. Brothers, I know of a case, fornication has happened, the elders encouraged them, withdraw yourself from assembly fellowship.

It's not mentioned publicly what has happened. That is a form of sweeping things under the rug. There is a reason the Bible says, rebuke those that sin, that all will fear.

So when we short-circuit God's ordered way of dealing with things, yes it's going to be hard. That's why we need to pray for them. Pray for one another.

But it does honor God because it's chosen. Let me go back to just your both your comments too about apostolic times. Yet in Acts 5, God directly removes Ananias and Sapphira.

He doesn't call upon the assembly to do it, he does it himself. Here, which is pretty close, I mean it's a few years later, but it's still apostolic times, God does not do that. And in fact, the certain, and this is not a fall off a cliff like you said, this is something that is not only open, they're bragging about it.

And so I have wondered if that is part of the contributor to the situation, that the assembly themselves was actually glorying in their license to be able to do these things. And so the state of the assembly itself actually corresponded in some ways to what was happening, because they were both almost in agreement with it. This is good.

And yet Paul, I just think it's very significant that this is the case of, this is the case of moral discipline that we're given, and it's so bizarre, in a sense one should have his father's wife, it's not so much as named among the Gentiles. I just think there's a lot of situations behind this that Paul is using to expose the very situation of the assembly, and saying that as a whole this thing is... Yeah, the different leaders are professing apostles. You know, they profess to be apostles, and some are likely teaching that.

Those that Paul brings forward to represent them. You know, some could say, I follow Paul, he's the one who has great liberty, and then Peter, the apostle of the Gentiles, he lays it on the line that no one will ever abolish. He's more eloquent.

So that all fits into the whole thing, doesn't it? Tom, Tom. Also, brother, the environment of Corinth is affecting the assembly. Yes.

Yeah. This is kind of thing, might not have been mentioned among the Gentiles, but it was not uncommon. That's right.

But nevertheless, you and I are living in a Corinthian environment. That's right. What has been brought out by our brother, our brother Scott, is the fact that the attitude of the old world around us toward these matters, especially sexually, is infiltrating assemblies.

It's undermining the principles upon which assemblies are. I would say that in a country, and I was going to say, let's turn to first Californian, okay? Because where I live and where you are here, this is what permeates our society. It's so acceptable, and not only that, it's so available.

It's out there for us if we want it. You don't have to go out looking for it. It's right there.

But the point is, is that, isn't it a miracle? That as far as we know in Corinth and the way it was, this is the only time that somebody was put out for this act. I think that shows the grace of God, the power of God's salvation. How is it that this whole audience here, we've been preserved.

No credit to ourselves. It's God who has kept us and preserved us, and maybe we have gone beyond what we should have sometimes, but God preserves his people, and I think it's all credit and glory goes to God for this. I got one question and we got to move on.

Can a brother who has fallen into this sin ever be a leader in the assembly? I personally don't think so, but... No, a person who's disciplined and has approved themselves would take this man a long while. You can't work with what you don't have, and there are men that I know that have, unfortunately, this has happened. They're in a very small company.

There's nobody else there to lead. They do it in the fear of God. I know one case where a brother was questioned about it.

He says, you know, I've been waiting for somebody to take my place. I really want everybody. So, but there's one thing we're, I don't say we're missing, I'm sure, accountability.

I need to be accountable to you at a point where you can meet, vice versa, where you can come say, hey Murray, just be careful there, you know, at that point, and I should be able to take that. I mean, I worked in a business. I had an unsaved accountant come to me and say, that gal out in the front office has got to go.

I said, well, she's doing a good job. She's got to go or you'll be in trouble. Unsaved man, and she went.

I don't, I don't pick it up. I was so stupid. I mean, I was married, had one child at the time, but other times when brethren have come, how good it is to be accountable.

No man a law unto himself. Others that we can just be accountable. I think I've got a relationship with brethren that I think, nobody, he's the untouchable, they would come to me.

It doesn't have to be an elder, just somebody. It's accountability. Yeah, I think that could be your wife.

Sure could. And your wife sees something that you're doing, listen to her, because she has your good in view. If the elders come to you and see something that you're doing, listen to them, because they have your good in view.

Because it's an awful thing to be delivered the hands of Satan. That's what's happening here. And we don't, we're not even have time to talk about it.

But thankfully, this person who was delivered into the hands of Satan for the destruction of the flesh, and all that that meant, in chapter, in the 2nd Corinthians, we find that that person is restored again. And he says that, lest he be overcome, because he was like in the hand for too long of Satan. And now the man's repented, and he needs to be restored back to the assembly, because Satan has already done his work.

And I want to say this real quickly, in the Old Testament, we've been reading in Jeremiah, my wife and I have, and you find there that God is going to use the Chaldeans to discipline the Jewish, the Jerusalem and Judea for their sin. And the Chaldeans were the most evil of all. And yet here he's going to use Satan to do the same thing.

Joel, it sounds like, looks like you have something to say. With respect to your question about an elder being restored to his function, wouldn't a lot of it depend on whether he is truly restored to the confidence of the assembly, and able to regain the respect to the believers? I think that was right. I'm sorry, did you not finish? No.

No, I agree with you on that, because I know of situations where someone has done this, and they've been disciplined, disciplined properly, they accepted the discipline, they wanted the discipline, because they knew they weren't right for God. And now, they're tremendous gospel preachers. People are looking up to them, and God is using them.

I didn't think the question was a leader that had sinned, being restored to that position. I thought the question was, could someone that had fallen be a leader? Yeah, that's what the original question was. Which is a difference.

Yes, there is a difference, and that's good. That is a big difference. There is moral defilement, but there is moral defilement that needs to be dealt with by the assembly, and then there's the question of doctrinal defilement.

We're going there now, thank you. Let's read it. Oh, okay, go ahead.

We got ten minutes. We got blue light. Miriam is an example that I've always seen, in the fact that she, she was, as a matter of fact, a leprosy, she speaks of death, and she had repented, and Moses had prayed for her, but it was still required that she spend seven days outside the camp, because that's what the process was, that's what the law claimed, and the camp did not move until she was restored.

So the whole putting out is for restoration, and it was required. Okay, you got the floor, brother. When somebody, a sin has happened 25 years ago, or 10 years ago, and it wasn't known, they confessed, they came forward, nobody would have ever known if they hadn't come forward.

They still need to be put out of the assembly, but in the case of a young person, how long? Seven days. And what do we expect? Do we expect the young person to know I need to be out of fellowship for two weeks, two months, two years? I think it would be incumbent, if obviously they're repentant, because they confessed something that nobody would have ever found out about, but I'll tell you what happened here, we asked the person after two weeks if they'd like to be back in fellowship, and they sat back during that time period, and they obviously wanted to, and we announced them the next week, and they were received the next week. So it doesn't have to be a long period of time, and we need to understand, how much they understand, and we can be the ones that initiate that.

That goes back to leadership, doesn't it? We need to know the sheep. We understand their needs, and I think that it's important that every assembly, we have autonomy of assemblies, and every assembly has a body of elders, and when they come to the point where they realize this person needs to be restored, and I hope, trust, it worked out good for the assembly, and that the person still is going on. We got a question here, Brother Jim.

This could be a yes or no question. Okay. But relative to this, is it scriptural to silence a person, that is, leave them in the assembly by denying public participation? Yes or no? Do we have scriptural for that? Yes, we do.

Well, that's internal discipline. That could be applied to a person. It depends on what the situation is, and again, I think that's up to the elders in the assembly, but yes, I do believe that we can stop the mouth of Titus.

It talks about stopping the mouth of those who are defiling the assembly through whatever they're saying, and I believe, yes. They're teaching, or they can't pray? If they silence me, can I pray? How about worship? Worship? Well, that would depend if they're going to turn their prayer into a little mini-preach to get back at the elders. You're prejudging the situation.

Yeah, right. No, I just know a situation. Someone's been around a while, and we've been seeing situations like this.

I know a brother, and he had been accepted, and it wasn't, I don't think, I think we're talking about railing or whatever. He was out, okay? They're all at a conference. There's three or four left.

He prayed, and when he got home, he got beat up, okay? I mean, the poor guy, he's back in now, but I thought, come on, I don't think you can silence a man's worship, okay? I don't know what Brother Jim back here has had plenty of experience, but you could, his teaching, yes. Yeah, but did you, and we're not even going down that line because we're just broadening out too far. Let's just leave it.

Let's leave it. Let's go on to the next one. 1 Timothy chapter 1. 1 Timothy 1 and verses 18 through 20.

This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare. This is 1 Timothy chapter 1 and verse now 19. Holding faith and a good conscience, which some having put away concerning faith, have made shipwreck.

Of whom is Hananias and Alexandra, whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. Here we have again someone being delivered unto Satan, and it's with a purpose that they might learn. There's something that they've been doing, and I wonder, just real quick, were these two men with the Apostle Paul, when he called them out from Ephesus to Miletus, right? And they met together, and he said to the group of elders that time, he said they'll be among you, those who will rise up and try to get a following of people in the assembly.

Were these two men there? Did Paul look at them in the eye when he said that? I don't know. But the point is this, they have made shipwreck, why? Because of not holding faith and a good conscience. It's interesting, we have here twice the word good, it's in verse number 18, a good warfare.

And in Ephesians chapter 6 we have the equipment for the warfare, and here we have the engagement of the warfare. And now it's not immorality, but it's doctrine that is being taught. And as you go through 1st Timothy and 2nd Timothy, you're going to find that over and over again, there are those who are attacking the sound doctrine of God's word, the healthy doctrine of God's word.

And he says, I want you to fight the warfare against that. Do not allow this doctrine to lose its effect upon the assembly, because that's what holds the assembly together. How do we function if we don't have the doctrine in the way that it should be? It's sound, healthy doctrine for the assembly.

And it's interesting here that you have good, and then you have evil. Go to Genesis chapter 1, I think it's what, seven times? Good, good, good, as God goes through his creation, he looks at it, it's good. Go to Genesis chapter 2, a tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Two things side by side. Where did it come from? Well, we know the source. But here we have good, and we have evil that is being dealt with.

Now brethren, we have about, I hate to say it, four minutes to deal with all this. And we have another passage to deal with too. But just real quick, if you have anything to say.

Delivering unto Satan, I know you didn't discuss it, but since it's linked with both. I think that is simply the idea of delivered outside the assembly and discipline. That realm of what I was saying earlier, the within and without.

So that everything that is outside is under the domain of Satan. That's why Paul says, do not ye judge that as within. So that's the administration point of God.

Everything outside is under the domain of Satan. So it's not anything, I don't believe, anything supernaturally apostolic. It's simply they were delivered outside of the assembly.

And that's so important because we are social people and we need one another. And I know of a situation right now where the person has told me. What I miss the most is being able to be in fellowship with the Lord's people.

To be there, to associate with them. And it hurts. So I think that's part of the discipline though.

They had to feel the pain for what they have done. And not only that, outside of the fellowship of the brethren. But outside of the protection that there is in the assembly.

That's what I appreciate. Adam, when he was driven out of the garden. He hated to leave it.

It was the hardest thing he ever did. But when he's out there, what protection have you got now? And their response to that would be indicative if they're a child of God. Like you said, that woman longed for that fellowship.

I didn't know it was a woman. I think you said it. Did I? I thought I covered that up.

Okay. You said that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. In other words, that they would be part of that company.

They might not be part of this company now. But their response and longing will be part of that company. Frank, just to make sure.

Not outside the building? No. Because the church is not the building. And people find this.

The seat of the unlearned is in the domain of Satan. It's outside the assembly. So within that building, you've got two separate spheres.

The without and the within. And there's the importance of the seat of the unlearned, where they can actually observe what they've been put out from and learn not to blaspheme Christ. But there would be a side to that, brother, that you wouldn't call the seat of the unlearned.

Yeah, I would be careful. You'd have to be careful on that. I'm being careful.

But I've had this said to me. An elder said to me once, because of something in their life they felt they couldn't have been to the assembly. He says, well, they made it as far as the back seat.

That's close enough, isn't it? No, I think the seat of the unlearned is established by God for that purpose. I would be careful of using that expression. It's a place for learning.

So then you're obviously saying then to deliver unto Satan the domain is outside the building then. No, I'm saying that that's a necessary part of assembly testimony. And so, therefore, it is linked with what God has in his purpose.

I understand that. No, no, no. Yeah, I agree.

That's why I say when someone's in the seat of the unlearned, they're not part of the assembly. No, no. They're not in the tilled field.

They're just outside looking in. You wouldn't say they're in the domain of Satan. Right, that's what you did say.

No, that's where I would say. So then I ask you again, where does the domain of Satan start? The domain of Satan starts where this particular individual is delivered unto that realm, if you like. So then you're making it spiritual? Yeah.

I thought that the punishment here was apostolic in 1 Timothy. I did like Ananas and Sapphira. That was apostolic.

So then is 1 Corinthians 5 unique? Is this unique? Are these cases of discipline unique? In 1 Corinthians 5, the assembly had to do it. They had to deliver such in one. Put them out, deliver them out.

To do what? To deliver them unto Satan? Yes, outside of the assembly. Exactly. That's not apostolic.

And with such in one, not to eat. Not in the same building. No, not to eat.

But it's not apostolic. That's my point. That's the point, yeah.

So it was the assembly acting in 1 Corinthians 5, but here it's Paul who says that he delivered them unto Satan. With the same results. That they may learn, not to blaspheme.

Which means they could be possibly saved. Because how could a sinner learn? Like an apostate, right? So there's the emphasis of recovery. If it's the same Hymenaeus that's mentioned in 2 Timothy, then he was teaching that the resurrection was past.

And if it's the same Alexander, then he was a coppersmith and did all much evil. And I think we should just spend a minute or two on holding faith. There's that part of security.

There's the part of being able to feel and understand my responsibility before God, as I live here in this world. And it's built around faith. Now, if you were to go to, we were at 1 Thessalonians, but if you go to chapter 3, I think it's five times you have the word faith mentioned there.

And what was Paul's concern with? That the deceiver might deceive them. And according to their faith. So holding the faith.

It's so important to understand the responsibility that we have. We can't just go and live our lives the way we want to live our lives. We have a guide.

We have a pattern to follow. And I think that's what he is referring here. Holding the faith.

And then you could just look at the work of Barnabas when he went to Antioch. And he could say with purpose of heart, that they would cleave unto the Lord. So it's a cleaving, it's a holding.

We'll see that in my next passage, if I can get to it. There's a holding and a cleaving. One suggestion.

There is no definite article before faith there. So in contrast to them, it's actually faithfulness. In addition to what you're saying.

Faithfulness to the truth, too. Our time has gone. Yes, so we can't touch Rome.